One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

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• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[albertwv]

People are elevating Hancock because BB arguably the weakest Yonko before Luffy and Buggy, stated that he feared he would lose and turn to stone if he let go of Hancock. Sure I guess you can totally say Hancock > Blackbeard, if YOU HAVENT READ ONE PIECE before that chapter.
If we go by that statement of BB, then let's replace Sugar with Hancock. If BB was holding Sugar, do you think he would let her go and instantly lose? Or say Bonney who could turn him into a kid.
Then going by Hancock > BB logic, Sugar/Bonney > BB. Boom Sugar and Bonney are now Yonko level fighters.

Can you see the fallacy of that logic.
Yes BB admitted he would be turned to stone because as we've seen BB act as a fool and clearly lusts after Hancock. He would be turned to stone, but that doesn't mean Hancock is stronger than him, much less to imply that Hancock is a Yonko or YC1 level fighter. Not all. If you claim that she is YC1+ due to her ability and what BB stated, then give the same respect to Sugar and Bonney.
this is another assumption: slave arrow stone-turning-attack can be stopped by CoA. IMO, because if not then Hancock could simply "slave arrow" anybody and everybody and become the strongest pirate/human ever. Roger, WB, Kaido? Nah Hancock reigns supreme.

 

[Crimson Ice]

We don't know that though. Large portions of the conflict were skipped. We simply see the end of the fight at this point.

I guess you're right. Though I still lean towards that as really neither of them has heavy battle damage, matter of fact, Blackbeard doesn't even have a single scratch on him. I doubt they duked it out prior to her being beaten.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 15, 2022, Original Post Date: Sep 15, 2022 ---

People are elevating Hancock because BB arguably the weakest Yonko before Luffy and Buggy, stated that he feared he would lose and turn to stone if he let go of Hancock. Sure I guess you can totally say Hancock > Blackbeard, if YOU HAVENT READ ONE PIECE before that chapter.
If we go by that statement of BB, then let's replace Sugar with Hancock. If BB was holding Sugar, do you think he would let her go and instantly lose? Or say Bonney who could turn him into a kid.
Then going by Hancock > BB logic, Sugar/Bonney > BB. Boom Sugar and Bonney are now Yonko level fighters.

Can you see the fallacy of that logic.
Yes BB admitted he would be turned to stone because as we've seen BB act as a fool and clearly lusts after Hancock. He would be turned to stone, but that doesn't mean Hancock is stronger than him, much less to imply that Hancock is a Yonko or YC1 level fighter. Not all. If you claim that she is YC1+ due to her ability and what BB stated, then give the same respect to Sugar and Bonney.
this is another assumption: slave arrow stone-turning-attack can be stopped by CoA. IMO, because if not then Hancock could simply "slave arrow" anybody and everybody and become the strongest pirate/human ever. Roger, WB, Kaido? Nah Hancock reigns supreme.

If Sugar was in Boa's position she gets smoked even if he lets her go.

 

[Pirate Queen]

People are elevating Hancock because BB arguably the weakest Yonko before Luffy and Buggy, stated that he feared he would lose and turn to stone if he let go of Hancock. Sure I guess you can totally say Hancock > Blackbeard, if YOU HAVENT READ ONE PIECE before that chapter.
If we go by that statement of BB, then let's replace Sugar with Hancock. If BB was holding Sugar, do you think he would let her go and instantly lose? Or say Bonney who could turn him into a kid.
Then going by Hancock > BB logic, Sugar/Bonney > BB. Boom Sugar and Bonney are now Yonko level fighters.

Can you see the fallacy of that logic.
Yes BB admitted he would be turned to stone because as we've seen BB act as a fool and clearly lusts after Hancock. He would be turned to stone, but that doesn't mean Hancock is stronger than him, much less to imply that Hancock is a Yonko or YC1 level fighter. Not all. If you claim that she is YC1+ due to her ability and what BB stated, then give the same respect to Sugar and Bonney.
this is another assumption: slave arrow stone-turning-attack can be stopped by CoA. IMO, because if not then Hancock could simply "slave arrow" anybody and everybody and become the strongest pirate/human ever. Roger, WB, Kaido? Nah Hancock reigns supreme.

Sugar has no combat feats. Hancock is a combatant. It is very different

 

[Fox666]

Sugar has no combat feats. Hancock is a combatant. It is very different

She's no match for Blackbeard in combat tho

 

[Pirate Queen]

She's no match for Blackbeard in combat tho

Based on?

 

[Fox666]

Based on?

 

[Pirate Queen]

 

[HereNThere]

Basic haki is a given at this point, especially amongst commander level fighters and above.

What is not a given is advanced haki.
Boa most likely has advanced armament, considering her sisters had it. Anything further would be a reach. I mean, people were thinking she had advanced conqueror's and what not, I don't think anyone having advanced conqueror's would get folded by a choke from BB.

Shiryu most likely would have advanced armament and advanced observation.
He was Magellan's equal without any DF, Magellan was someone who was seen as unstoppable in Impel down, he defeated Ivankov in a low-mid diff. Jinbe and Crocodile knew not to mess with him.

That's what I mean. Everybody going into the end game should have above average proficiency in basic haki if they have been portrayed as a respected or infamous pirate. I don't see Hancock having bad CoO or CoA.

Advanced is another discussion entirely and is indeed something that needs on-screen confirmation before we can say anyone can have it. But I was mainly speaking about the basics of haki.

It is likely that Shiryu is going to have it, but my point was that, despite not demonstrating any form of haki at all at this point, we can give him the benefit of the doubt in his proficiency given his relevancy. Just like we can give Hancock and Crocodile the benefit of the doubt.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

People are elevating Hancock because BB arguably the weakest Yonko before Luffy and Buggy, stated that he feared he would lose and turn to stone if he let go of Hancock. Sure I guess you can totally say Hancock > Blackbeard, if YOU HAVENT READ ONE PIECE before that chapter.
If we go by that statement of BB, then let's replace Sugar with Hancock. If BB was holding Sugar, do you think he would let her go and instantly lose? Or say Bonney who could turn him into a kid.
Then going by Hancock > BB logic, Sugar/Bonney > BB. Boom Sugar and Bonney are now Yonko level fighters.

Can you see the fallacy of that logic.
Yes BB admitted he would be turned to stone because as we've seen BB act as a fool and clearly lusts after Hancock. He would be turned to stone, but that doesn't mean Hancock is stronger than him, much less to imply that Hancock is a Yonko or YC1 level fighter. Not all. If you claim that she is YC1+ due to her ability and what BB stated, then give the same respect to Sugar and Bonney.
this is another assumption: slave arrow stone-turning-attack can be stopped by CoA. IMO, because if not then Hancock could simply "slave arrow" anybody and everybody and become the strongest pirate/human ever. Roger, WB, Kaido? Nah Hancock reigns supreme.

The problem is in your claim since you're using false equivalency between Hancock & Sugar/Bonney.

When it comes to Sugar & Bonney:

• At the moment we do not know if their abilities work on Emperor level fighters e.g. Law can't use Shambles on BM or Kaido due to haki
• Specifically for Sugar we know it requires physically touching an opponent to turn them into a toy. Additionally she needs to verbally form a contract. Anyone fast can knock her out reversing the effects or even use CoC.

Hancock on the other hand:

• We know her ability can effect Emperor level fighters, BB just confirmed it (not to mention the 2 commanders we just saw get taken out)
• Her ability to turn someone to stone is essentially instant kill once it hits (unlike Sugar or Bonney)
• Her ability is ranged so she can do it from a distance (Mero Mero beam & Slave Arrow)

A better comparison to Hancock is Magellan. He is a high level combatant who has an overpowered ability that will effect all levels of fighters, can attack with range, and in when trying with his best poisons can potentially instant kill opponents. Blackbeard and his entire original crew have fallen victim to this.

The reality is Hancock has a somewhat broken ability and Oda has let her use it effectively even against powerful opponents. You may not like it but minimizing it isn't going to make it go away. People like Hancock & Magellan are here to stay and will be continue to be overpowered due to their powerful DFs.

 

[Fox666]

At the moment we do not know if their abilities work on Emperor level fighters e.g. Law can't use Shambles on BM or Kaido due to haki

Sugar ability worked on Chinjao, and apparently it would have worked on Luffy or Law.

So it seems Haki doesn't protect you from that ability.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

Sugar ability worked on Chinjao, and apparently it would have worked on Luffy or Law.

So it seems Haki doesn't protect you from that ability.

All 3 of those people at the time are far from Big Mom or Kaido's level. Just having haki alone isn't enough, it has to be powerful enough. In fact Law used Shambles on Luffy in Dressrosa but was explicitly said he is unable to use Shambles on Big Mom or Kaido during the roof top fight. I think we need to see what would happen if Sugar tries it against Luffy now to have a better idea of haki interactions with her ability.

Separate from the haki stuff, my other point about her abilities weakness still stand. She'd first have to make contact (which would be hard against powerful CoO users like Luffy/Kaido). And if she did, toy or not, people like Luffy/Kaido would quickly take her out (knocking her unconscious in the process) before she puts up a contract. Especially since we know Kyros was fast enough to get away from Sugar Emperors should definitely be up to the task.

 

[Fox666]

All 3 of those people at the time are far from Big Mom or Kaido's level. Just having haki alone isn't enough, it has to be powerful enough. In fact Law used Shambles on Luffy in Dressrosa but was explicitly said he is unable to use Shambles on Big Mom or Kaido during the roof top fight. I think we need to see what would happen if Sugar tries it against Luffy now to have a better idea of haki interactions with her ability.

Separate from the haki stuff, my other point about her abilities weakness still stand. She'd first have to make contact (which would be hard against powerful CoO users like Luffy/Kaido). And if she did, toy or not, people like Luffy/Kaido would quickly take her out (knocking her unconscious in the process) before she puts up a contract. Especially since we know Kyros was fast enough to get away from Sugar Emperors should definitely be up to the task.

I assume that Haki will protect you depending on how strong you are in relation to your opponent.

Sugar was already using her ability on someone many times stronger. Otherwise am I supposed to believe her ability can work on someone 20 times stronger, but there's a limit? I assume it works regardless of Haki.

I suppose you mean Law used Shambles on Luffy in Wano? That would indicate that Luffy's Haki wasn't much different from Law when the battle started.

 

[Nie Li]

I doubt Law can't shamble allies if they're too strong. Haki is a form of innate energy akin to will. It can be used to resist attacks and certain techniques, but it shouldn't do so unless the user wants to, just like it normally doesn't do anything at all without the user's intent or focus.

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I assume that Haki will protect you depending on how strong you are in relation to your opponent.

Sugar was already using her ability on someone many times stronger. Otherwise am I supposed to believe her ability can work on someone 20 times stronger, but there's a limit? I assume it works regardless of Haki.
started.

This is where I disagree. My view is that a DFs innate ability e.g. Luffy being rubber, Sabo being fire, Kaido being a dragon, Sugar making hobby come to life, etc is static. The ability will be the same regardless of the users ability. What I think a users ability and experience do is effect how well the ability is controlled & exploited (only exception being awakening which can add new powers). For example Sabo started training after getting the Mera Mera but the training is not making him any more fire than he already was. What he is doing is learning to control the flames better so he can apply it in an offensive way for combat.

In Sugar's case her ability is to make her hobby come to life. This core ability I don't think can be trained or improved, just its application. So to me how strong Sugar is without her DF power doesn't impact the ability of the DF power itself. Now a person with haki can defend against DF powers in different ways. Luffy used basic CoA to defend against Caesar's Shinokuni. Would this have worked against Magellan's poison? Or against Kaido's lava form? I personally don't think so in the former and know it wouldn't in the latter as it took aCoC+aCoA. My point being that a persons ability to use haki to resist or outright block a DF power is dependent on the haki user. To me once a haki user reaches the haki skill/threshold needed to resist the Hobby Hobby power they can't be turned into a toy. What we don't know is if such a threshold exists for this particular power yet. In the same vein I don't think Law can train to someday Shamble opponents like Kaido/BM either (personally think this is why awakening is a thing now).

I suppose you mean Law used Shambles on Luffy in Wano? That would indicate that Luffy's Haki wasn't much different from Law when the battle started.

No I meant Law used Shambles on Luffy in Dressrosa when he Luffy hit Doffy in the guts with his Red Hawk. I don't recall Law using Shambles on Luffy in Wano.

I doubt Law can't shamble allies if they're too strong. Haki is a form of innate energy akin to will. It can be used to resist attacks and certain techniques, but it shouldn't do so unless the user wants to, just like it normally doesn't do anything at all without the user's intent or focus.

That's an interesting open question. Does haki have intent to it that reflects the users will or is it just a tool that the user must actively manifest e.g. if BM were asleep and Law didn't have ill intent could he shamble her? We so far haven't seen it work like that but it seems logical.

 

[Fox666]

This is where I disagree. My view is that a DFs innate ability e.g. Luffy being rubber, Sabo being fire, Kaido being a dragon, Sugar making hobby come to life, etc is static. The ability will be the same regardless of the users ability. What I think a users ability and experience do is effect how well the ability is controlled & exploited (only exception being awakening which can add new powers). For example Sabo started training after getting the Mera Mera but the training is not making him any more fire than he already was. What he is doing is learning to control the flames better so he can apply it in an offensive way for combat.

In Sugar's case her ability is to make her hobby come to life. This core ability I don't think can be trained or improved, just its application. So to me how strong Sugar is without her DF power doesn't impact the ability of the DF power itself. Now a person with haki can defend against DF powers in different ways. Luffy used basic CoA to defend against Caesar's Shinokuni. Would this have worked against Magellan's poison? Or against Kaido's lava form? I personally don't think so in the former and know it wouldn't in the latter as it took aCoC+aCoA. My point being that a persons ability to use haki to resist or outright block a DF power is dependent on the haki user. To me once a haki user reaches the haki skill/threshold needed to resist the Hobby Hobby power they can't be turned into a toy. What we don't know is if such a threshold exists for this particular power yet. In the same vein I don't think Law can train to someday Shamble opponents like Kaido/BM either (personally think this is why awakening is a thing now).

Doflamingo said Law's ability wouldn't work against Vergo's Haki.

While Doflamingo underestimated Law, it does seem that in-universe all it takes to stop Law's ability is having a Haki significantly stronger than his.

No I meant Law used Shambles on Luffy in Dressrosa when he Luffy hit Doffy in the guts with his Red Hawk. I don't recall Law using Shambles on Luffy in Wano.

I see no reason to assume that Luffy's Haki was stronger than Law in Dressrosa. I would argue the opposite, that Law was way above Luffy until he used Gear 4.

Law used Shambles on Luffy and the others a few times on the rooftop. However he went to the lower floor shortly after Luffy started using CoC infusion.

 

[Nie Li]

Didn't Law actually shambles Doflamingo? I may be remembering wrong, but didn't he exchange himself with Dofla when he had his guard down so Luffy would hit him?

 

[grey matter]

When it comes to Sugar & Bonney:

• At the moment we do not know if their abilities work on Emperor level fighters e.g. Law can't use Shambles on BM or Kaido due to haki
• Specifically for Sugar we know it requires physically touching an opponent to turn them into a toy. Additionally she needs to verbally form a contract. Anyone fast can knock her out reversing the effects or even use CoC.

I don't know about Bonney, but Sugar for sure is capable of using her powers on enemies irrespective of haki. She was hyped to be able to turn Law and Luffy to toy, she also turned characters like Chinjao and Cavendish (who also scale to pre G4 Luffy) to toy as well.
All the while, she is literal fodder in stats.

Hancock on the other hand:

• We know her ability can effect Emperor level fighters, BB just confirmed it (not to mention the 2 commanders we just saw get taken out)
• Her ability to turn someone to stone is essentially instant kill once it hits (unlike Sugar or Bonney)
• Her ability is ranged so she can do it from a distance (Mero Mero beam & Slave Arrow)

A better comparison to Hancock is Magellan. He is a high level combatant who has an overpowered ability that will effect all levels of fighters, can attack with range, and in when trying with his best poisons can potentially instant kill opponents. Blackbeard and his entire original crew have fallen victim to this.

The reality is Hancock has a somewhat broken ability and Oda has let her use it effectively even against powerful opponents. You may not like it but minimizing it isn't going to make it go away. People like Hancock & Magellan are here to stay and will be continue to be overpowered due to their powerful DFs.

Here is the catch with Hancock's ability.
Once someone figures out the trick, like Momonga did, her insta stone hax is countered.

I think comparing her hax to Magellan is fine, though it is harder to counter them. Magellan's hax cannot be countered without poison resistance, but are harder to land.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 16, 2022, Original Post Date: Sep 16, 2022 ---

Didn't Law actually shambles Doflamingo? I may be remembering wrong, but didn't he exchange himself with Dofla when he had his guard down so Luffy would hit him?

Yes, he did.
My interpretation is that Doflamingo's haki is generally stronger (so Law can't do it in a pure 1v1), but Law can shamble him when he's not paying attention.

I suppose the gap in haki was too large when it came to Kaido/BM, such that he couldn't shamble them even when caught off guard

I doubt Law can't shamble allies if they're too strong. Haki is a form of innate energy akin to will. It can be used to resist attacks and certain techniques, but it shouldn't do so unless the user wants to, just like it normally doesn't do anything at all without the user's intent or focus.

Yeah, this is true too.

He could shamble Luffy and Zoro, despite of them having superior armament haki

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 16, 2022 ---

That's what I mean. Everybody going into the end game should have above average proficiency in basic haki if they have been portrayed as a respected or infamous pirate. I don't see Hancock having bad CoO or CoA.

Advanced is another discussion entirely and is indeed something that needs on-screen confirmation before we can say anyone can have it. But I was mainly speaking about the basics of haki.

It is likely that Shiryu is going to have it, but my point was that, despite not demonstrating any form of haki at all at this point, we can give him the benefit of the doubt in his proficiency given his relevancy. Just like we can give Hancock and Crocodile the benefit of the doubt.

Sure, I can agree on that.
The issue was when a large section of her fanbase were like she's gonna have advanced conqueror's or portrayed her as some haki Goddess. Yeah no, not until it's shown.

I think reasonable prediction/headcanon is fine.
For example, predicting Hancock to have advanced armament haki is reasonable, because her sisters have it.

I think same for Shiryu goes as well. Nothing shows he's a conqueror type, so any prediction of him being one is a problem.
He was still equal of someone as strong as Magellan, from whom commander level fighters were running from. So expectations of advanced armament is reasonable, maybe even advanced observation.

 

[HereNThere]

The issue was when a large section of her fanbase were like she's gonna have advanced conqueror's or portrayed her as some haki Goddess. Yeah no, not until it's shown.

I don't believe any of us were arguing that she had advanced haki. Even Pirate Queen noted that there is no evidence of her having the advanced forms at the moment. We are just arguing that she should be a master of the basics of haki.

 

[kkck]

Doflamingo said Law's ability wouldn't work against Vergo's Haki.

While Doflamingo underestimated Law, it does seem that in-universe all it takes to stop Law's ability is having a Haki significantly stronger than his.


I see no reason to assume that Luffy's Haki was stronger than Law in Dressrosa. I would argue the opposite, that Law was way above Luffy until he used Gear 4.

I think the issue here is that there isn't an unifying logic that explains haki vs abilities across different cases. Each ability has its own rules which probably ultimately serve only what oda requires of the plot rather than consistent in world logic. Compare for example moria's zombies and big mom's homies. Different abilities of course but there are some similarities between them. In this case what's important is that moria's zombies are vulnerable to salt. Meanwhile big mom's homies are not vulnerable to salt. And even sea water considering we even see homies working underwater. Maybe oda thought of something that makes sense as for how this is the case but if he didn't he hasn't bothered to explain it. IThe salt thing fits relevant thriller bark themes of course but from an internal logic angle its pretty wonky. Specially if big mom's homies are not only immune to salt but also sea water itself.

There's also another type of case worth considering... Take vander decken's fruit. Vander decken was not particularly powerful but his fruit was in general just BS. He could touch two things and the first would become a target for the second indefinitely. Even without being particularly powerful decken got noah to chase around shirahoshi. In the grand scheme of things this suggests some abilities simply kinda work like forces of nature. They just do their thing regardless of actual power levels. Hancock's ability also seemingly works like this, feeling a modicum of attraction to her turns you to stone and no amount of haki can protrect you from it. My guess would be that sugar's ability falls under the same category as a force of nature. It just does its thing without any regard for power levels. Sugar wasn't exactly weak, she was at least capable of easily dealing with dwarfs, but the sheer scope of her ability was staggering. Touch someone and literally everyone in the world forgets that person regardless of their overall power. I don't think haki can stop sugar's ability from turning you into a toy tbh. Best case scenario is probably using it to stop her from touching you.

 

[Fox666]

Didn't Law actually shambles Doflamingo? I may be remembering wrong, but didn't he exchange himself with Dofla when he had his guard down so Luffy would hit him?

Yes, he did that