One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As always, please follow the guidelines set by the Forum Rules that apply across the board.

It's important that discussions from a current chapter are spoiler tagged until 24h have passed from an english release.

• For the sake of constructive discussion, where and when possible please quote/ source any information you provide. Particularly when it comes to conversations carried over from other threads.
• Avoid passive agressive posts, sly remarks or baiting/trolling. You can certainly have fun or disagree without it being at someone's expense.
• Only use anime examples that are canon and as means to provide clarity to pages in the manga. Any other anime material is otherwise non-canon and should only be referenced if it can be proved that the mangaka had approved it.
• We will strive to avoid repetitive discussions and any extensive battle topics will be guided to the Davy Back fight to existing threads or new ones can be made there.

As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

If you wish to continue any of these discussion and remove it from the list, you will need to provide manga material as proof. If there's also anything you think we've covered numerous times, let me know and I'll update the list.

This is the only warning there'll be regarding these ground rules, anything no adhering will be removed. So please just check your posts before posting them.

 

[XXGenesis]

Why do ya engage… Week after week the same horrible opinion…

 

[BlackTiger]

Why do ya engage… Week after week the same horrible opinion…

Just because you cannot refute these opinions doesn't mean you can cry that those opinions are horrible when these opinions are facts backed by the manga

 

[Pirate Queen]

Just because you cannot refute these opinions doesn't mean you can cry that those opinions are horrible when these opinions are facts backed by the manga

Your arguments are the equivalent of asking us to refute that humans breath water and not air. They are so profoundly wrong we are all just baffled you aren't trolling

 

[Fox666]

I don't see the point of using bounties to measure the strength of Luffy and Zoro opponents

Bounties can be used as reference, but they aren't really that accurate

In Ennies Lobby, Zoro and Sanji received bounties of 120 and 77 millions. However the Douriki of Kaku and Jabra were roughly the same

 

[BlackTiger]

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 9, 2023, Original Post Date: Feb 9, 2023 ---

I don't see the point of using bounties to measure the strength of Luffy and Zoro opponents

Bounties can be used as reference, but they aren't really that accurate

In Ennies Lobby, Zoro and Sanji received bounties of 120 and 77 millions. However the Douriki of Kaku and Jabra were roughly the same

Kaku was much stronger than Jyabura though. Kaku was a swordsman too and had better usage of his df. Doriki doesn't measure overall combat capabilities.

 

[Fox666]

Kaku was much stronger than Jyabura though. Kaku was a swordsman too and had better usage of his df. Doriki doesn't measure overall combat capabilities.

Oh no, it's the swordsman > hand-to-hand fighter argument

 

[BlackTiger]

Oh no, it's the swordsman > hand-to-hand fighter argument

If Jyabura has higher doriki then yes he and Kaku are equal. Not having a sword is a nerf for swordsman so the fact that Kaku without his sword can beat Jyabura in doriki shows with his sword, Kaku would be much more deadly than Jyabura

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 9, 2023, Original Post Date: Feb 9, 2023 ---

The fact that it took Ashura which would later revealed to be CoC and scar Kaido also shows how much stronger Kaku was compared to Jyabura who lost to DJ which later was tanked by a bunch of scrubs in New World

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 9, 2023 ---

Kaku can break Jyabura tekkai with his fists since Kaku had higher doriki than him. With his swords, Kaku ap would be much higher and potentially he can 1 shot Jyabura even if Jyabura uses tekkai so Zoro 120 m and Sanji 77 m were justified after Enies Lobby just like Luffy 1.5 b and Zoro 1.1 b after beating each YC1 were justified showing King who low diffed Marco as the weaker YC1

 

[Fox666]

If Jyabura has higher doriki then yes he and Kaku are equal. Not having a sword is a nerf for swordsman so the fact that Kaku without his sword can beat Jyabura in doriki shows with his sword, Kaku would be much more deadly than Jyabura

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 9, 2023, Original Post Date: Feb 9, 2023 ---

The fact that it took Ashura which would later revealed to be CoC and scar Kaido also shows how much stronger Kaku was compared to Jyabura who lost to DJ which later was tanked by a bunch of scrubs in New World

I don't see the point of arguing over Kaku vs Jabra when the author literally provided powerlevels for them

The CP9 have dozens of techniques, including one that makes their limbs as sharp as blades, I don't see how a pair of swords can be a gamechanger

Kaku himself calls his style "Four Swords Style" because he also use his legs in battle, holding two swords for him must be the equivalent of boxing gloves, it's better to have it in a fight but not essential

Kaku can break Jyabura tekkai with his fists since Kaku had higher doriki than him. With his swords, Kaku ap would be much higher and potentially he can 1 shot Jyabura even if Jyabura uses tekkai so Zoro 120 m and Sanji 77 m were justified after Enies Lobby just like Luffy 1.5 b and Zoro 1.1 b after beating each YC1 were justified showing King who low diffed Marco as the weaker YC1

You think Kaku could one-shot Jabra because he's a swordsman?

Yet somehow you think Katakuri could fight Kaido and wouldn't get one-shot like Luffy?


I don't get why are you using the bounty of other people as evidence, when Katakuri's own bounty is much lower than King or Marco

If bounties are proof of anything, you already lost the debate about Katakuri's superiority

 

[grey matter]

Oh no, it's the swordsman > hand-to-hand fighter argument

It's quite different here, because this isn't a comparison between overall power levels. What we have here are 1:1 comparisons on how hard a character hit physically.
Can Zoro hit as hard as Sanji without his swordsmanship or not? I'd presume it's safe to say no.
Kaku meanwhile, can hit harder than Jyabura without his swordsmanship.

Doriki is just a measurement of how hard you hit and nothing more. Doesn't measure speed/CQC, combat style, defence etc.

While you're using doriki as an argument for Zoro/Sanji and extrapolating to even now, reality is that Oda portrays Zoro with both Luffy and Sanji....... Luffy/Zoro being a duo is true, and Zoro/Sanji being a duo is also true. While people of varying fanbases love to fixate on just one of these portrayals while ignoring the other, cause it fits what they want.
Where Zoro lands between them is quite ambiguous by design, because Oda wants to have it both ways...... a reasonable estimate would be right in the middle between them.

 

[kkck]

Kaku can hit harder that jyabura without his swordsmanship? What inane twilight zone nonsense is this? Martial arts and skill in said martial arts along with how good you are at using haki with said martial arts also factor into damage output. Haki shouldn't be a factor for part 1 kaku and jyabura but martial arts should definitely factor in. Jyabura fights with his bare body and fists primarily with his tekkai kenpo which allows him to move while his body is hardened by tekkai. Kaku combines rokushiki with swordsmanship for a four sword style with his legs and swords. The notion that kaku, whose skill is not in fist fights, can punch as hard as jyabura, who does specialize in fist fights, is absurd. Comparable doriki in no way, shape, form or context evidences this is possible. Part 1 kaku has as much chance of winning a fist fight against jyabura as dressrosa zoro in beating sanji in a kicking contest. The manga has simply never evidenced kaku being a fist fight specialist, we shouldn't just assume he is.

Add to that... the past arcs evidence that haki sort of has to adapt to your specific martial art to some degree. The manga has shown very clearly how luffy and zoro differ in their haki usage even when using the same haki types. Luffy did pretty well with basic haki skills and hardening. And got significant increases in damage output from learning haki projection and using it to cause internal damage. Zoro in turn has had haki projection since part 2 started, it being a basic requirement for swordsmanship to begin with. Haki can even be further specialized for specific techniques or martial arts like we saw with sai and his country shattering kick. It's also worth noting that given how haki powerups have played out with luffy and zoro since dressrosa it's entirely possible (key word) that sai gaining the capacity to use his haki like that for his kick straight up gave him a big overall powerup since it was framed as some sort of awakening (not like devil fruit of course). Sai went from being off handedly foderized by luffy to being someone zoro at the time acknowledged as worth looking out for. It wouldn't be that insane that post kick sai could actually match early dressrosa chinjao blow for blow. Because haki powerups are bullshit.

 

[grey matter]

Kaku can hit harder that jyabura without his swordsmanship? What inane twilight zone nonsense is this? Martial arts and skill in said martial arts along with how good you are at using haki with said martial arts also factor into damage output. Haki shouldn't be a factor for part 1 kaku and jyabura but martial arts should definitely factor in. Jyabura fights with his bare body and fists primarily with his tekkai kenpo which allows him to move while his body is hardened by tekkai. Kaku combines rokushiki with swordsmanship for a four sword style with his legs and swords. The notion that kaku, whose skill is not in fist fights, can punch as hard as jyabura, who does specialize in fist fights, is absurd. Comparable doriki in no way, shape, form or context evidences this is possible. Part 1 kaku has as much chance of winning a fist fight against jyabura as dressrosa zoro in beating sanji in a kicking contest. The manga has simply never evidenced kaku being a fist fight specialist, we shouldn't just assume he is.

Add to that... the past arcs evidence that haki sort of has to adapt to your specific martial art to some degree. The manga has shown very clearly how luffy and zoro differ in their haki usage even when using the same haki types. Luffy did pretty well with basic haki skills and hardening. And got significant increases in damage output from learning haki projection and using it to cause internal damage. Zoro in turn has had haki projection since part 2 started, it being a basic requirement for swordsmanship to begin with. Haki can even be further specialized for specific techniques or martial arts like we saw with sai and his country shattering kick. It's also worth noting that given how haki powerups have played out with luffy and zoro since dressrosa it's entirely possible (key word) that sai gaining the capacity to use his haki like that for his kick straight up gave him a big overall powerup since it was framed as some sort of awakening (not like devil fruit of course). Sai went from being off handedly foderized by luffy to being someone zoro at the time acknowledged as worth looking out for. It wouldn't be that insane that post kick sai could actually match early dressrosa chinjao blow for blow. Because haki powerups are bullshit.

All that essay for nothing, cause you missed the entire damn point.

Kaku hitting harder is literally what the doriki implied. They really just punched/kicked there.

I am of course not saying Kaku without swords > Jyabura lol. Since when does hitting harder alone means automatic win? Never. Cause I recognize that fighting style, CQC etc. matters.
But seems like people take douriki way too far to where it doesn't imply what they think it does.

 

[XXGenesis]

Just because you cannot refute these opinions doesn't mean you can cry that those opinions are horrible when these opinions are facts backed by the manga

Lol where was I crying at. I always motivate the forum to ignore nonsense Or circle debates.

You aren’t using facts. You are using your bias & warped perspective of the facts to suit your agenda . Which is your horrible opinion about a YC1 vs a Yonkou….either way….I only say something when you get hella rude with the forum…..I don’t get the urge to spread this bad opinion every 2 weeks that nobody is gravitating to.

 

[kkck]

All that essay for nothing, cause you missed the entire damn point.

Kaku hitting harder is literally what the doriki implied. They really just punched/kicked there.

I am of course not saying Kaku without swords > Jyabura lol. Since when does hitting harder alone means automatic win? Never. Cause I recognize that fighting style, CQC etc. matters.
But seems like people take douriki way too far to where it doesn't imply what they think it does.

Except, you know, it doesn't. It's extremely likely kaku simply won't punch as hard as jyabura simply because kaku is unlikely to be as good at it as jyabura. Who actually has the martial skill for it AND tekkai to boost it. It's just as insanely absurd as suggesting jyabura can match anything kaku can do with a sword just because their physical prowess is comparable. Even if jyabura could it wouldn't be solely because of physical prowess but because there's serious skill behind that which we have no reason to assume he has.

 

[grey matter]

Except, you know, it doesn't. It's extremely likely kaku simply won't punch as hard as jyabura simply because kaku is unlikely to be as good at it as jyabura. Who actually has the martial skill for it AND tekkai to boost it. It's just as insanely absurd as suggesting jyabura can match anything kaku can do with a sword just because their physical prowess is comparable. Even if jyabura could it wouldn't be solely because of physical prowess but because there's serious skill behind that which we have no reason to assume he has.

Dude you are arguing against the manga here.
Doriki is literally stated to be physical power.

I don't even know why you are bringing up matchup here, when I am not even arguing for it lmao. Of course Kaku loses without his swords because Jyabura is a much better fighter in hand-to-hand combat.

Stop. And read what I am saying instead of sperging out. WTF

 

[kkck]

Dude you are arguing against the manga here.
Doriki is literally stated to be physical power.

I don't even know why you are bringing up matchup here, when I am not even arguing for it lmao. Of course Kaku loses without his swords because Jyabura is a much better fighter in hand-to-hand combat.

Stop. And read what I am saying instead of sperging out. WTF

I am reading what you are saying. And I am saying that suggesting kaku can match a punch from jyabura because of doriki is almost definitely nonsense which ignores how combat in the series works. The only scenario where that can happen is that kaku also matches jyabura's skill in punching which as far as we know is unlikely.

 

[Pirate Queen]

Doriki is tearing this family apart

 

[DeadlyBeast]

I think there is a distinction that needs to be made between damage output i.e. how hard someone punches vs physical strength i.e. how much someone can lift. The open question is what does doriki actually measure?

During Water Seven/Enies Lobby we saw that Fukurou had to be punched for him to tell people their doriki. Jyabura said it measures only physical power without accounting for DF abilities.

I have always thought there are two distinct interpretatinos that impact power scaling Zoro vs Sanji by proxy (at least during pre-skip):

• One interpretation is to define doriki as measuring raw physical strength in the sense of how much energy output the muscles of the person have. This captures strength without accounting for technique (including DF, martial arts, swordsmenship, etc). This interpretation implies a person (Jyabura) who is a martial artists can punch harder than someone who is physically stronger than them due but lack of technique (Kaku). In this case Kaku has the higher doriki because he physically is stronger than Jyabura but he cannot punch harder.
  • What this implies to me is that Kaku & Jyabura are relatively close to each other physically, both get a boost from zoan fruits, and both get a boost from their respective fighting styles. So at the end of the day they are relatively similar power levels with Kaku just edging out above Jyabura. By proxy this would mean that Zoro power level wise just edges out over Sanji.
• Another interpretation is that doriki is measuring the actual force of the punch in the same way that a real world boxing punch sensor is used. This means that some techniques actually can be captured within doriki. The result of this interpretation is that Kaku actually punches harder than Jyabura despite Jyabura having better punching technique due to his martial arts mastery. This implies when all other factors are accounted for that Kaku is actually power level wise a lot stronger than Jyabura. By proxy this would have meant that Zoro is stronger than Sanji and not close.

Personally I think Oda used the whole Fukurou scene as a reference to boxing punch sensors to make it easy for readers to get that its a measure of physical body and not something like ki in DB but at the same time I think doriki is meant to represent overall physical ability not just the ability to punch hard.

 

[albertwv]

How strong were Pre TS Lucci, Kaku and Jabura compared to other Pre TS characters? And how far would they fare against NW characters?
I remember someone stated Page One was weaker than Pre TS Luffy. LOL.
IMO Pre TS Lucci was as strong if not slightly stronger than Moria and would give Kid, Law, and Drake a tough match.
Pre TS Lucci won the battle versus Luffy, but thanks to the power of friendship (Usopp) Luffy stood up again.

 

[kkck]

I am more of the idea that pre time skip moria was actually a fair bit more poweful than pre time skip luffy, and by extension lucci. We saw a little bit of the confrontation between moria and luffy and for the most part luffy could not even get past moria's shadow while moria literally did nothing. Moria's happened due to a number of shenanigans during the arc, most of which unrelated to what 1 vs 1 combat between luffy and him would play out.

At the time moria did most of his combat through oar's corpse. And it had a fair bit of an advantage over the strawhats. But the tide was first turned when luffy showed up juiced up with 100 shadows and completely trashed both moria and oars. IIRC at this point moria moria for the first time took significant damage, enough to have been left unconscious. Which the strawhats took advantage of to shatter oar's spine. Then this damaged moria woke up and absorbed every shadow at thriller bark which came at the cost of at least some of his sanity and was mostly left in a state where it was a matter of time until he lost consciousness. Which was accelerated by him becoming a pretty huge target for gear 2+3 luffy.

To put moria's power in perspective, consider his attack against oar's jr. In fairness aor's was already weakened by then but his attack was still big enough that it caused a pretty serious injury to oars. At that point in time not one strawhat had the firepower to deal that much damage to oars at all. Luffy certainly couldn't have done anything like that.

Pre time skip luffy and lucci were rookies. Moria was lazy and presumably weaker than he was in the past but he wasn't a rookie pirate.

 

[albertwv]

I am more of the idea that pre time skip moria was actually a fair bit more poweful than pre time skip luffy, and by extension lucci. We saw a little bit of the confrontation between moria and luffy and for the most part luffy could not even get past moria's shadow while moria literally did nothing. Moria's happened due to a number of shenanigans during the arc, most of which unrelated to what 1 vs 1 combat between luffy and him would play out.

At the time moria did most of his combat through oar's corpse. And it had a fair bit of an advantage over the strawhats. But the tide was first turned when luffy showed up juiced up with 100 shadows and completely trashed both moria and oars. IIRC at this point moria moria for the first time took significant damage, enough to have been left unconscious. Which the strawhats took advantage of to shatter oar's spine. Then this damaged moria woke up and absorbed every shadow at thriller bark which came at the cost of at least some of his sanity and was mostly left in a state where it was a matter of time until he lost consciousness. Which was accelerated by him becoming a pretty huge target for gear 2+3 luffy.

To put moria's power in perspective, consider his attack against oar's jr. In fairness aor's was already weakened by then but his attack was still big enough that it caused a pretty serious injury to oars. At that point in time not one strawhat had the firepower to deal that much damage to oars at all. Luffy certainly couldn't have done anything like that.

Pre time skip luffy and lucci were rookies. Moria was lazy and presumably weaker than he was in the past but he wasn't a rookie pirate.

Yeah Luffy and Lucci were rookies and Moria did substantially get weaker due to laziness but even so during the actual Moria vs Luffy fight, I didn't see Luffy struggle against Moria but more so against the effects of Gear 2 and Gear 3. Moria managed to land 2 blows on Luffy and Luffy landed way many more. Moria was good at sneaking away but at fighting he was not adept. He had the strength to break an island but that was more so due to his size.
He made himself a huge target when he swallowed 1000 shadows. I believe Lucci would have been able to handle him as well.

Im even inclined to claim that a single Pre-TS Pacifista could defeat Moria. Remember, it took the Monster Trio + their Special Move to finally take down ONE single Pacifista and they were exhausted