One Piece Power Level Discussion Thread

[goldb]

Ground Rules for the Power Level Discussion Thread
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As of now these topics are shelved due to repetitiveness or until the manga can present us with material to further discussions:

1. Shanks v Mihawk
2. Hand to hand fighters > Swordsmen
3. Zoro > Luffy
4. Zoro v Sanji
5. Is Smoker a top 30 character?
6. Mihawk's rank within the story
7. Law having CoC currently.
8. Katakuri > Kaido/Luffy/Etc.

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[albertwv]

Something I'm confused on is the Rocks pirate strength....
Rocks was Roger's greatest enemy, not Garp not WB. It has been stated that Roger and WB were equals AFTER Rocks era and Garp cornered Roger many times.
Also, it took the combined strength of Garp and Roger to take down Rocks during the God Valley Incident, but the details are hazy because we have no idea if WB, Big Mom, Shiki, young Kaido and other Rocks pirates, actually participated in the battle or it was a 2 v 1 (Garp and Roger vs Rocks)
If it truly was a 2 v 1, then that makes Rocks even more deadly and possibly stronger than Roger.

RECAP, Let's do some history
At that time there Roger, Rayleigh, Garp and WB were around late 30's. BM was 30, Shiki I have no idea probably mid 30's. Kaido was 21. Rocks age is unknown but I guess late 30's early 40's.
After Rock's defeat it is Roger's era.
Roger starts sailing (again) at 49 years old towards finding the Road Poneglyphs.
At 50 years he fights and defeats Shiki.
At 51, Roger vs Oden and Roger vs WB, their final fight that we see in the manga. In the end it seems as they are equals so at that time:
Roger = WB > Shiki >/= Oden.
Then at 52, Roger sailed with Oden, no major battles occurred that we know of and they reached Laughtale.
At 53, Roger is executed, thus making WB the strongest man of the world.

So Roger was 39 when he fought Rocks and then 10+ years later, he defeats Shiki, Oden and matches in strength with WB.
We know on his last voyage 49 - 53 years, Roger was the strongest man tied to WB, so they were above current YONKO and Admiral level.
So my questions are:

Did Roger get stronger after defeating Rocks? How strong were Roger, WB, Garp, and Rocks during GV? How would you rank them?

 

[grey matter]

Something I'm confused on is the Rocks pirate strength....
Rocks was Roger's greatest enemy, not Garp not WB. It has been stated that Roger and WB were equals AFTER Rocks era and Garp cornered Roger many times.
Also, it took the combined strength of Garp and Roger to take down Rocks during the God Valley Incident, but the details are hazy because we have no idea if WB, Big Mom, Shiki, young Kaido and other Rocks pirates, actually participated in the battle or it was a 2 v 1 (Garp and Roger vs Rocks)
If it truly was a 2 v 1, then that makes Rocks even more deadly and possibly stronger than Roger.

RECAP, Let's do some history
At that time there Roger, Rayleigh, Garp and WB were around late 30's. BM was 30, Shiki I have no idea probably mid 30's. Kaido was 21. Rocks age is unknown but I guess late 30's early 40's.
After Rock's defeat it is Roger's era.
Roger starts sailing (again) at 49 years old towards finding the Road Poneglyphs.
At 50 years he fights and defeats Shiki.
At 51, Roger vs Oden and Roger vs WB, their final fight that we see in the manga. In the end it seems as they are equals so at that time:
Roger = WB > Shiki >/= Oden.
Then at 52, Roger sailed with Oden, no major battles occurred that we know of and they reached Laughtale.
At 53, Roger is executed, thus making WB the strongest man of the world.

So Roger was 39 when he fought Rocks and then 10+ years later, he defeats Shiki, Oden and matches in strength with WB.
We know on his last voyage 49 - 53 years, Roger was the strongest man tied to WB, so they were above current YONKO and Admiral level.
So my questions are:

Did Roger get stronger after defeating Rocks? How strong were Roger, WB, Garp, and Rocks during GV? How would you rank them?

Regarding God Valley, I think this was the levels:
Rocks > Roger >= WB ~ Garp > Rayleigh > BM ~ Shiki > Scopper > Kaido

My predictions regarding God Valley:
- Roger held off Rocks until help arrived from Garp, then they teamed on him and beat him.
- Whitebeard vs Rayleigh, double KO because WB had a moment of doubt in his captain
- Garp beats Shiki
- Scopper beats Kaido
- BM betray Rocks, plans something with Kaido

 

[kkck]

Rocks had a lot of big names in it but it's unlikely any of them were at yonko level at the time. WB, big mom were veteran pirates by then but they got their positions as rulers of the sea decades. We saw oden joining the WB some ten years after rocks fell at least. Kaido was a teenager while a member of rocks. So rocks was without a doubt an insanely powerful crew but to me it's a stretch that it actually had a bunch of yonko level fighters. WB was actually extremely worried about the prospect of having someone like oden, a conqueror haki user, as a member of his crew. Imagine the following scenario:

Rocks: yonko level

WB: Beneath rocks but potentially a rival

Big mom: YC1-2? Maybe in the ballpark on an admiral?

Kaido: Strong fighter. Unclear strength but most likely a rookie compared to the rest, probably well weaker than any modern executive.

Shiki: YC1-3? I suppose he could have been higher than that if he was later on able to hold his ground against roger.

Ochoku: unclear strength but probably noteworthy enough that modern yonko didn't bother to take beehive from him/her. Probably in the ballpark of a yonko considering the rocky port incident has been noted to be... difficult? BB somehow needed koby's help here and ochoku must have been quite old.

John: Unclear strength but was a legendary pirate.

To those powerful members you can probably add their crews as it seemed rocks was more like a collection of captains under a non aggression pact. If each had its own executives then this adds to a pretty damn significant force. kaido probably didn't have a crew at this point.

With that in mind it's even more incredible that roger and garp won. IMO the most likely scenario is that the god valley incident was the breaking point and the entire alliance collapsed. Probably leaving xebec alone to deal with however many enemies could have gathered here. Which influenced how WB built his crew going forward.

 

[albertwv]

@grey matter I like your ranking scale but I'm not sure about prediction match ups. I don't see Rayleigh fighting WB or Garp fighting Shiki. I think it was Garp and Roger vs Rocks and for the rest well its unclear to decide.

@kkck I have to disagree on your ranking scale. I think its too low.
I believe Rocks was stronger than the current Yonko level, if not he would not have been a legend or enough for the WG to fear him and get rid of his name.
During Roger's era I believe all these individuals were above current Yonko level: Roger, WB, Garp, Rayleigh, Sengoku, possibly Scopper, possibly Shiki.
While Big Mom and Kaido who was 21 at that time of Rocks, were possibly Admiral level and soon became current Yonko level.
I do think Oden was truly Admiral level right below Yonko at the time of his death.

IMO, I think Rocks was way above current Yonko level.

 

[kkck]

I have to disagree on your ranking scale. I think its too low.
I believe Rocks was stronger than the current Yonko level, if not he would not have been a legend or enough for the WG to fear him and get rid of his name.
During Roger's era I believe all these individuals were above current Yonko level: Roger, WB, Garp, Rayleigh, Sengoku, possibly Scopper, possibly Shiki.
While Big Mom and Kaido who was 21 at that time of Rocks, were possibly Admiral level and soon became current Yonko level.
I do think Oden was truly Admiral level right below Yonko at the time of his death.

IMO, I think Rocks was way above current Yonko level.

Welp, it's all speculation but to me it is a bit of a hard sell any of these characters would have been yonko level folk this early in their careers. Big mom and kaido weren't 21 at the time of rocks, big mom was something like 10 years older than kaido. Big mom was roughly in her late 20s at the time rocks was disbanded and kaido in his late teens. And king is in his late 40s so it must have been several years from them until kaido even met king. Oden as far as I can tell was an actual yonko level fighter even if kaido had an edge over him. If WB and the characters you mention were yonko level then they would have sort of peaked at the time and stayed at that peak for almost 30-40 years. That sounds a bit like a stretch. I suppose rock's could have had any level of strength though to me it'd be weird if he was all that more powerful than the modern yonko or even peak WB-roger. So far there hasn't been anything stronger than a yonko, it may well be just about the peak for characters in the series.

 

[HereNThere]

IMO the most likely scenario is that the god valley incident was the breaking point and the entire alliance collapsed. Probably leaving xebec alone to deal with however many enemies could have gathered here. Which influenced how WB built his crew going forward.

This is basically what I think happened as well. Xebec is an impressive man to have gathered the people that he did under his flag, however, he likely didn't endear himself to them or make it worth it for them to really follow his lead. Personally, I think Whitebeard probably undermined Xebec in his own way as well as I can't really see him truly going along with whatever Xebec had planned. Then things just went downhill from there as things went to crap and Xebec was probably left on his own to take on Roger and Garp.

As for their scaling, I think Xebec was comparable to our current generation of Yonkou (probably closer to Whitebeard's level), while Roger, Garp, Whitebeard, Big Mom, and Shiki were weaker than him by a vague degree and comparable to one another. After Xebec fell, everyone hit their stride during Roger's Era and reached their prime, with Roger and Whitebeard being the standouts of that group.

 

[albertwv]

Welp, it's all speculation but to me it is a bit of a hard sell any of these characters would have been yonko level folk this early in their careers. Big mom and kaido weren't 21 at the time of rocks, big mom was something like 10 years older than kaido. Big mom was roughly in her late 20s at the time rocks was disbanded and kaido in his late teens. And king is in his late 40s so it must have been several years from them until kaido even met king. Oden as far as I can tell was an actual yonko level fighter even if kaido had an edge over him. If WB and the characters you mention were yonko level then they would have sort of peaked at the time and stayed at that peak for almost 30-40 years. That sounds a bit like a stretch. I suppose rock's could have had any level of strength though to me it'd be weird if he was all that more powerful than the modern yonko or even peak WB-roger. So far there hasn't been anything stronger than a yonko, it may well be just about the peak for characters in the series.

God Valley happened 38 years ago....
Roger was 39 at that time, WB 36, BM 30, Kaido 21. Kaido was the youngest one and possibly the weakest one but not weak enough to say he was a Yonko Executive level. I seriously think young Kaido was strong maybe YC1-3 level at the time of Rocks.

IMO, I place the Old Era at the highest peak during their prime. Stronger than Current Yonko, current Admirals, and current YC's.
As we seen how Old WB at MF was getting weaker but still considered the WSM and defeated Akainu. Yes he ended up dying but that just shows how strong he must have been 24 years ago during his prime, during his time with Roger.
So prime Roger and prime WB were a league above Yonko.
I think BM and Kaido got stronger while WB became weaker (due to age) throughout the 24 years after Roger's death.

So I place Rocks a league or two above current Yonko.

 

[kkck]

God Valley happened 38 years ago....
Roger was 39 at that time, WB 36, BM 30, Kaido 21. Kaido was the youngest one and possibly the weakest one but not weak enough to say he was a Yonko Executive level. I seriously think young Kaido was strong maybe YC1-3 level at the time of Rocks.

IMO, I place the Old Era at the highest peak during their prime. Stronger than Current Yonko, current Admirals, and current YC's.
As we seen how Old WB at MF was getting weaker but still considered the WSM and defeated Akainu. Yes he ended up dying but that just shows how strong he must have been 24 years ago during his prime, during his time with Roger.
So prime Roger and prime WB were a league above Yonko.
I think BM and Kaido got stronger while WB became weaker (due to age) throughout the 24 years after Roger's death.

So I place Rocks a league or two above current Yonko.

Wait, it's one thing to say xebecs was stronger than any one yonko. It may or not have been the case but it's another when you compare their entire crews. As strong as the rocks pirates were there's no indication so far that they had anything like what modern yonko have built. Even if they did, they weren't friends or united in anything and the most likely scenario remains that their collapse came about due to their inability to care for each other. Modern yonko crews in turn are extremely united and have real military might behind them, Kaido's crew had 30000 people at least including 3 calamities, 6 topo robi, something like 50 headliners and 500 smile users who were deemed to be competent fighters. And that with however many weapons the crew stockpiled in wano along with probably dozens or hundreds of ships which didn't play a part in onigashima. The most likely scenario is that modern yonko crews as well more powerful than the rocks pirates were, if only because they are actual military forces. The same goes for the original roger pirates who were probably something like 30 assholes. Even during oden's flashback we saw how WB's crew continued to grow in strength and numbers after their "tie" with the roger pirates. That said, it is possible the rocks numbered in the tens of thousands and whatnot of course but so far the manga has not evidenced this yet. So far it appears the rocks were composed of the crews of the main members which while certainly a formidable force there's not much indication that they numbered in the tens of thousands or were united in purpose like modern yonko crews.

 

[albertwv]

Wait, it's one thing to say xebecs was stronger than any one yonko. It may or not have been the case but it's another when you compare their entire crews. As strong as the rocks pirates were there's no indication so far that they had anything like what modern yonko have built. Even if they did, they weren't friends or united in anything and the most likely scenario remains that their collapse came about due to their inability to care for each other. Modern yonko crews in turn are extremely united and have real military might behind them, Kaido's crew had 30000 people at least including 3 calamities, 6 topo robi, something like 50 headliners and 500 smile users who were deemed to be competent fighters. And that with however many weapons the crew stockpiled in wano along with probably dozens or hundreds of ships which didn't play a part in onigashima. The most likely scenario is that modern yonko crews as well more powerful than the rocks pirates were, if only because they are actual military forces. The same goes for the original roger pirates who were probably something like 30 assholes. Even during oden's flashback we saw how WB's crew continued to grow in strength and numbers after their "tie" with the roger pirates. That said, it is possible the rocks numbered in the tens of thousands and whatnot of course but so far the manga has not evidenced this yet. So far it appears the rocks were composed of the crews of the main members which while certainly a formidable force there's not much indication that they numbered in the tens of thousands or were united in purpose like modern yonko crews.

Im talking about individual strength, not overall crew. I believe Xebec himself was stronger than current Yonko.
For the pirate crew, I think the Rocks pirates were only one crew one ship full of legendary big shots.

 

[kkck]

So... what do people think of burgues' fruit? Taking in consideration this is a story where people can get super strength simply by training, to the point where zoro was throwing around buildings at people long before he was even strong enough to be considered a noteworthy rookie, what the hell does a super strength fruit mean? I get that his crew is going for the more powerful fruits around but if burges was physically powerful character by new world standards before the fruit then... what does it mean if his fruit makes him 10X stronger? Could the guy actually punch at the yonko level? It's a presumably simple fruit but it seems more effective than most fruits around. If the super strength boost is proportional to the user then it seems like depending on the fighter it could be more effective than most zoans and even something like WB's fruit... Imagine if garp got the fruit....

 

[Fox666]

So... what do people think of burgues' fruit? Taking in consideration this is a story where people can get super strength simply by training, to the point where zoro was throwing around buildings at people long before he was even strong enough to be considered a noteworthy rookie, what the hell does a super strength fruit mean? I get that his crew is going for the more powerful fruits around but if burges was physically powerful character by new world standards before the fruit then... what does it mean if his fruit makes him 10X stronger? Could the guy actually punch at the yonko level? It's a presumably simple fruit but it seems more effective than most fruits around. If the super strength boost is proportional to the user then it seems like depending on the fighter it could be more effective than most zoans and even something like WB's fruit... Imagine if garp got the fruit....

I don't think there's any strength feat in One Piece that compares with Burgess lifting that hill without any effort

And if he had no effort in doing it, we don't know what his limit is, if there is even a limit

 

[kkck]

I don't think there's any strength feat in One Piece that compares with Burgess lifting that hill without any effort

And if he had no effort in doing it, we don't know what his limit is, if there is even a limit

There probably is a limit I suppose... So we just assume burges can even overpower kaido with a punch?

 

[HereNThere]

So... what do people think of burgues' fruit? Taking in consideration this is a story where people can get super strength simply by training, to the point where zoro was throwing around buildings at people long before he was even strong enough to be considered a noteworthy rookie, what the hell does a super strength fruit mean? I get that his crew is going for the more powerful fruits around but if burges was physically powerful character by new world standards before the fruit then... what does it mean if his fruit makes him 10X stronger? Could the guy actually punch at the yonko level? It's a presumably simple fruit but it seems more effective than most fruits around. If the super strength boost is proportional to the user then it seems like depending on the fighter it could be more effective than most zoans and even something like WB's fruit... Imagine if garp got the fruit....

I'd go as far as to say that Burgess is the current strongest man alive at this point, so I'd say it's likely that Burguess can punch above his weight class. Winning is a different matter, however. Given that Oda's aim seems to have given them simplistic, yet hax abilities, it's likely that there really isn't a drawback or trade-off for him so. There probably is an upper limit though, but I doubt we'll really get a good idea of what it is.

 

[Fox666]

There probably is a limit I suppose... So we just assume burges can even overpower kaido with a punch?

Wouldn't he have to penetrate Kaido's skin?

I assume he can beat anyone in a arm wrestling match

But I think he's not more durable, and someone fast like Kaido can one-shot him

 

[XXGenesis]

I believe Xebec was indeed taken down by both Roger & Garp 2 vs 1….

As for the disbandment of the Rocks Pirate. I think we have enough clues.

The God Valley Incident Was the straw that broke the camels back. I believe Xebec got The Rocks into a dangerous or unwarranted situation…(My speculation something to do with the Celestial Dragons) But more than likely their chemistry & compatibility finally hit its threshold. Xebec ended up alone and defeated at the end, everyone else.

I also think Xebec is Equal to Prime Roger/WB/Garp.

WB & BM & Shiki were easily close to Yonkou lv imo.

 

[I Am Atomic]

King can use his fire to get out from being suffocated by mochi. Like for example, he can just explode himself and the created a mountain level AOE explosion.

Anyway, that only worked back then to begin with cause Luffy was almost done, he can't just do it to anyone he wants.

What else can Katakuri do to King? Mochi suffocation doesn't work

The explosion is limited or just a one type use only. He just hides explosions and traps under his clothes, then explodes them when the enemies come close. The mountain level explosion is not spammable. Unless I am mistaken? Mochi on the other hand is unlimited. So, drowning King is still on the cards!

 

[Pirate Queen]

The explosion is limited or just a one type use only. He just hides explosions and traps under his clothes, then explodes them when the enemies come close. The mountain level explosion is not spammable. Unless I am mistaken? Mochi on the other hand is unlimited. So, drowning King is still on the cards!

To add on. The explosion was due to Zoro stabbing through the clothing thus lowering the integrity of the outfit... punches don't break through clothing because they are not sharp. Also. If he could use block mochi for offense, he can use it for defense.

And throughout the fight King only used the ability once and you could argue its because it only works the first time his suit is damaged because it never happened again, as you said

 

[Nie Li]

The explosion is limited or just a one type use only. He just hides explosions and traps under his clothes, then explodes them when the enemies come close. The mountain level explosion is not spammable. Unless I am mistaken? Mochi on the other hand is unlimited. So, drowning King is still on the cards!

I don't remember it being said he used any kind of explosive device? Did I actually miss that?

The most obvious explanation to me was just him flexing his fire powers a bit harder.

 

[Pirate Queen]

If King had the ability to use mountain level explosions and only used it once, his battle iq is even lower than previously thought

 

[Nie Li]

If King had the ability to use mountain level explosions and only used it once, his battle iq is even lower than previously thought

The writing of the fight (and some others in Onigashima) in general was plainly no-IQ. Just little flexes to show what he can do, a couple of flashy panels and an epic panel of, in this case, Zoro winning.