American Politics

[M3J]

I don't care about your test, whatever it is. If you wanna delude yourself into thinking you're being moralistic by condemning Hamas, go ahead. Why would I click on any link you provide when you weren't directing anything at me? I'm already disgusted by the fact that you seem to care more about Hamas POSSIBLY being murderous over the fact that Israel is actively committing genocide and bombing hospitals and places that it told citizens would be safe places to go to.

No matter how you stretch it or what you say, it's far more evil and horrible to be obsessed with Hamas (despite Israeli hostages and civilians criticizing Netanyahu and Israel) than it is pointing out Israel's horrific acts that they themselves admit to and lies that they confess aren't true. I don't care to spend time trying to talk sense to someone performing PR for Israel.

Besides, Palestine supporters were saying there was no Hamas command center in any hospital, and that Israel was just claiming that as an excuse to bomb hospitals.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 23, 2023, Original Post Date: Dec 23, 2023 ---

Linking a tweet without any context is damage control for Hamas? I mean, I know what M3J has written in the past but I'm not sure I'm following

If Hamas has been proven to do horrible stuff, then I fully oppose them. Otherwise I don't support them, so I'm not sure what "damage control" is about when I'm more focused on Israel's horrific actions, and USA helping them commit it. I've been seeing Hamas be blamed for stuff since Oct 7th, and Israelis themselves blaming IOF.

What's funny though is that I've never shared my actual thoughts on whether I'll vote for Biden or not. I've been careful not to to see the kind of responses I'd get.

 

[xi0]

If Hamas has been proven to do horrible stuff, then I fully oppose them. Otherwise I don't support them, so I'm not sure what "damage control" is about when I'm more focused on Israel's horrific actions, and USA helping them commit it. I've been seeing Hamas be blamed for stuff since Oct 7th, and Israelis themselves blaming IOF.

What's funny though is that I've never shared my actual thoughts on whether I'll vote for Biden or not. I've been careful not to to see the kind of responses I'd get.

I don't think you need to take it on faith that Hamas has done horrible things. Both on October 7th and before that.

For me, the issue I have with the discussion is using Hamas as a premise to "both sides" the argument. Especially when Netanyahu and his buddies are on record preferring Hamas exists. Hamas isn't and has never been the primary obstacle to peace.

 

[M3J]

Not to mention, ignoring the fact that the reason why there are Palestinians who are violent towards Israel is because of the losses they suffered due to Israel being a genocidal terrorist. If someone or a group kept killing my people and loved ones, I'd definitely want payback and to stop them from doing it to anyone else.

 

[ninjabot]

Linking a tweet without any context is damage control for Hamas? I mean, I know what M3J has written in the past but I'm not sure I'm following

I typed up a reply about how it's damage control but I don't feel right trying to convince you of anything after trying to prove my stance on Hasan and you simply dismissing it. Time wasted.

There's literally only 4 of us posting about the Israel-Palestine stuff in this thread, and of the 4 of us I'm the only one reading my posts, so I'll just keep them to myself. See ya'll election season.

 

[M3J]

Also, given what Zionists like Amy Schumer and Noah Schnapp have said, as well as Israel using white phosphorous and other things, I'm disappointed people still think Israel and their supporters aren't evil but somehow think Hamas is, despite actually showing humanity to their hostages. I hope Zionists advocating for genocide/murder have their lives ruined like the Palestinians and Muslims who support ceasefire and simply wanting Palestine free.

We'll see just how much the Dems really care about people with whom they choose as their candidate.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 24, 2023, Original Post Date: Dec 23, 2023 ---

Anyone use Nextdoor? Some of the right wings in my area are so toxic and divisive, that I'm surprised they haven't been banned yet. Especially when national political discussions are banned.

 

[xi0]

I typed up a reply about how it's damage control but I don't feel right trying to convince you of anything after trying to prove my stance on Hasan and you simply dismissing it. Time wasted.

There's literally only 4 of us posting about the Israel-Palestine stuff in this thread, and of the 4 of us I'm the only one reading my posts, so I'll just keep them to myself. See ya'll election season.

Because I didn't click a video about streamer drama weeks ago when discussing the topic at large? I've watched other stuff you've linked and have discussed it with you, so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I'd go out of my way to be dismissive about it. I can admit to being absent-minded at times and maybe I contradicted myself, but I digress.

Is this you not being dismissive yourself? Do you really get the impression that I don't read your posts when I reply to them? Obviously, you can discuss what you want with who you want so no one is twisting your arm, I just think this characterization doesn't seem fair.

 

[ninjabot]

Because I didn't click a video about streamer drama weeks ago when discussing the topic at large?

What does ignoring what someone is saying to you typically imply xi0? It implies you don't care for what they're saying. You're dismissing what they have to say as unimportant. You're dismissing it even now.

It's "streamer drama" for you, it's what the streamer is teaching his impressionable young audience for me. It's fine if you don't agree with me, but then you could just say that instead of asking me why I believe something and then ignoring the evidence I post in favor of it.

I've watched other stuff you've linked and have discussed it with you, so I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I'd go out of my way to be dismissive about it. I can admit to being absent-minded at times and maybe I contradicted myself, but I digress.

"Go out of your way" isn't what you did. I'm not saying you put up some herculean effort toward being a dick. I'm saying you "chose to dismiss the evidence in my post" Which is something I've been dealing with since Oct. 7th (not from you).

An unintentionally dismissive act would be forgetting to watch it, or watching it and missing whatever point I was trying to make.
An actively dismissive act would be choosing not to engage with it at all. Perhaps dubbing it "drama" or "propaganda" or "Zionist lies" or "genocide apologia."

Is this you not being dismissive yourself?

Now? Yes, absolutely. I've earned that right.

Do you really get the impression that I don't read your posts when I reply to them? Obviously, you can discuss what you want with who you want so no one is twisting your arm, I just think this characterization doesn't seem fair.

No, not at all. This is a new occurrence... in this thread, on this topic, for you. But that means this topic went from ONE person I could talk to about it who would engage with the evidence outside of "lol lies" and not be instantly dismissed, to potentially ZERO. So I'm cutting my losses before it gets too infuriating. You said so yourself, this thread is a shitshow. I'm getting nothing but headaches trying to counteract terrorist apologia and anti-democracy

I'll reengage either with election stuff, or once Gaza becomes a parking lot, but I'm out of fucks to give about it.

 

[M3J]

counteract terrorist apologia and anti-democracy

This is so ironic but I guess that's what happens when you're brainwashed into believing lies.

It's even more anti-democratic to tell people they have to vote for Biden even if they don't like him just because he's the lesser evil. That is in no way a democracy. And Israel is actually committing acts of terrorism with proof, whereas Hamas keeps being accused of things that aren't true, and the fact that people are still focused on Hamas says more about them and their lack of morals.

Politicians blaming Hamas to justify genocide makes sense because they're being paid by Israel. Citizens doing the same despite proof is just disgusting. I don't want to get in trouble, otherwise I'd post more graphic pictures of Israel's war crimes here.



In any case, I'm not reading long posts, tried to stop doing that years ago, and especially when the argument is in circles or repetitive.

 

[xi0]

What does ignoring what someone is saying to you typically imply xi0? It implies you don't care for what they're saying. You're dismissing what they have to say as unimportant. You're dismissing it even now.

It's "streamer drama" for you, it's what the streamer is teaching his impressionable young audience for me. It's fine if you don't agree with me, but then you could just say that instead of asking me why I believe something and then ignoring the evidence I post in favor of it.

"Go out of your way" isn't what you did. I'm not saying you put up some herculean effort toward being a dick. I'm saying you "chose to dismiss the evidence in my post" Which is something I've been dealing with since Oct. 7th (not from you).

An unintentionally dismissive act would be forgetting to watch it, or watching it and missing whatever point I was trying to make.
An actively dismissive act would be choosing not to engage with it at all. Perhaps dubbing it "drama" or "propaganda" or "Zionist lies" or "genocide apologia."

Idk, I think it's a mix of all these things I guess. I'm not going to tell you you're overreacting or anything because I won't deny what it looks like, but I guess my point is that it wasn't some pointed dismissal of the topic, I just didn't have the headspace to discuss it perhaps. I don't have the best memory and so much about this topic is overwhelming as fuck, it's not hard feelings or anything.

No, not at all. This is a new occurrence... in this thread, on this topic, for you. But that means this topic went from ONE person I could talk to about it who would engage with the evidence outside of "lol lies" and not be instantly dismissed, to potentially ZERO. So I'm cutting my losses before it gets too infuriating. You said so yourself, this thread is a shitshow. I'm getting nothing but headaches trying to counteract terrorist apologia and anti-democracy

I'll reengage either with election stuff, or once Gaza becomes a parking lot, but I'm out of fucks to give about it.

I don't feel like I was doing anything approaching that outside of maybe 2 instances? It might be lazy, but it's difficult to take much from western sources at face value from what I've experienced. Also, I feel like you did a good job ignoring the more inflammatory stuff prior to it being removed, so arriving at this sort of impasse now is taking me by surprise.

Where have I participated in terrorist apologia or anything anti-democratic at all...? Even if this isn't referencing me I'm not sure I've really seen that here? it feels like you're raging at twitter kids and tankies and somehow I'm in the crossfire because I'm also mostly critical of Israel? Idk, doesn't make sense to me. Do what you gotta do though.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 25, 2023, Original Post Date: Dec 25, 2023 ---

It's even more anti-democratic to tell people they have to vote for Biden even if they don't like him just because he's the lesser evil. That is in no way a democracy.

This is kind of nonsensical. Suggestions, whether they're "nice" or "appropriate" aren't anti-democratic.

My stance is that I thought the way some Democrats were approaching broaching the topic of voting for Biden with people was insanely tone-deaf and would do no favors for what they hoped to accomplish.

 

[M3J]

This is kind of nonsensical. Suggestions, whether they're "nice" or "appropriate" aren't anti-democratic.

My stance is that I thought the way some Democrats were approaching broaching the topic of voting for Biden with people was insanely tone-deaf and would do no favors for what they hoped to accomplish.

it's not a suggestion when we're told that out of two choices (when we can have more), we should vote for the lesser evil. Why can't the Dems give us a better candidate? Why are we told to vote for a certain candidate otherwise shit will hit the fan? It's not about nice or appropriate, it's about choices and "voting for the lesser evil" rather than whom we want. And right now, Biden is seen as the bigger evil. I do not want a republican in office again in my lifetime, not after the damage Bush and Trump have done, socially, economically, or otherwise.

Most Democrats were just as horrible as Trump and his supporters with the way they ignored the Muslims', the left, and Palestinians' feelings. I don't think tone-deaf is an accurate word to describe the lack of sympathy or empathy. Their messages were basically, "fuck your feelings and the fact that you lost loved ones. Thank Biden for sending aide to Gaza and vote for him otherwise horrible stuff will happen to us!"


Also, this picture articulates the whole Hamas thing well:

 

[xi0]

it's not a suggestion when we're told that out of two choices (when we can have more), we should vote for the lesser evil. Why can't the Dems give us a better candidate? Why are we told to vote for a certain candidate otherwise shit will hit the fan? It's not about nice or appropriate, it's about choices and "voting for the lesser evil" rather than whom we want. And right now, Biden is seen as the bigger evil. I do not want a republican in office again in my lifetime, not after the damage Bush and Trump have done, socially, economically, or otherwise.

Most Democrats were just as horrible as Trump and his supporters with the way they ignored the Muslims', the left, and Palestinians' feelings. I don't think tone-deaf is an accurate word to describe the lack of sympathy or empathy. Their messages were basically, "fuck your feelings and the fact that you lost loved ones. Thank Biden for sending aide to Gaza and vote for him otherwise horrible stuff will happen to us!"

"Vote for the lesser evil" is a suggestion, by definition. It's also democratic, by definition. It's shitty, and there's no reason to feel enthusiastic or inspired about it, but that doesn't alter what it is. And yeah, people were dickheads about it and will continue to be. No argument there.

If you don't want a Republican in office again in your lifetime then what is your option?

 

[ninjabot]

Where have I participated in terrorist apologia or anything anti-democratic at all...? Even if this isn't referencing me I'm not sure I've really seen that here? it feels like you're raging at twitter kids and tankies and somehow I'm in the crossfire because I'm also mostly critical of Israel? Idk, doesn't make sense to me.

You haven't, and you aren't in the crossfire. I'm not attacking you for doing the shit M3J and the virtue-signalling non-binary blue-haired college freshmen on Twitter do to make them feel like good people. Hell I'm not attacking you for any reason because I'm not attacking you, I'm just choosing not to engage on this topic with you anymore because you ignored me. It's super not more than that. I don't think you're a bad guy for it, I think I don't want to waste my time. I know it sounds like an overreaction because this is just one instance of you being dismissive (that I know of...) and we've gone back and forth a lot in the past. So why such a huge change now?

Because like I said: there are just 4 of us talking about this cursed topic and for the past 2 months I've been getting the same kind of behavior you just did to me, except from everyone else in here and with more dripping condescension and derision. You're just the only one honest enough to admit you ignored me. I had to bait M3J to get it proven.

I've set a boundary and that boundary puts you on the outside of it, at least for now. That's not an attack. And I don't believe "only interact with people that you trust will take you seriously" is an unfair boundary to have.

Do you?

 

[M3J]

"Vote for the lesser evil" is a suggestion, by definition. It's also democratic, by definition. It's shitty, and there's no reason to feel enthusiastic or inspired about it, but that doesn't alter what it is. And yeah, people were dickheads about it and will continue to be. No argument there.

If you don't want a Republican in office again in your lifetime then what is your option?

Again, how is it democratic when it suggests that we can't vote for whom we want, that we're locked into certain choices? One side that's bigoted and evil and the other side that's evil and try to do what they want. They were determined to go with Clinton, and look at how that turned out. Somehow it's the left that got blamed for her losing and not her being unappealing to most voters. The left experienced Trump and put in effort to make sure Biden won, and what happened? Biden did not move to the left, and he and his ilk are criticizing the left. And now, Dems are saying they'll give us candidates we don't want, and after the way Biden Administration has done throughout the term, a lot of left won't vote for him.

What'd be democratic is giving us more challengers for the primary and not interfering. If they decide to stick with Biden or go with Clinton or Harris, then the loss is on them because they were warned what would happen.

I have no idea. It's not up to me, and regardless of who runs in 2024 as a Democrat, I will not be an asshole like most Biden supporters/Dems and tell people to vote blue no matter who, as Dems are seen to be almost as evil, if not as evil, as the right.

Didn't Republican candidates during the primary debate few months ago say what they'd do to Palestinian supporters on campus or immigrants or something? Most of them threatened to deport, throw in jail, or something, right? I forgot the specifics, but I hope Palestine supporters and the left take note of this during the election. Assuming the Dem candidate won't do anything like that, that is.



Edit: eww I made a long post. my bad

 

[hblock]

 

[McNuss]

There's literally only 4 of us posting about the Israel-Palestine stuff in this thread,

I dropped out earlier. We learn in school and media how to identify these rhetorics and what they represent. I am horrified how the most stupid Nazi tricks have sipped so deeply into the mindsets of so many Americans.

At least thanks to you for preserving the dignity of your country in this thread.

There are so many serious voices of reason in this conflict, Guterres, the entire UN and all its subdivisions, the Red Cross, heck even freaking Macron, who is otherwise a neoliberal edgelord hating on muslims. It's not what is happening in this thread.

 

[xi0]

Because like I said: there are just 4 of us talking about this cursed topic and for the past 2 months I've been getting the same kind of behavior you just did to me, except from everyone else in here and with more dripping condescension and derision. You're just the only one honest enough to admit you ignored me. I had to bait M3J to get it proven.

I've set a boundary and that boundary puts you on the outside of it, at least for now. That's not an attack. And I don't believe "only interact with people that you trust will take you seriously" is an unfair boundary to have.

Do you?

I wasn't trying to imply that I was being attacked I only took exception with the characterization of my behavior and general association. But like I said, you can't force anyone to interact the way you wish, so you have to do what you need to do to stay sane. No argument there.

I just wanted to reiterate that my behavior wasn't because of derision or anything either, as I've already explained.

Again, how is it democratic when it suggests that we can't vote for whom we want, that we're locked into certain choices? One side that's bigoted and evil and the other side that's evil and try to do what they want. They were determined to go with Clinton, and look at how that turned out. Somehow it's the left that got blamed for her losing and not her being unappealing to most voters. The left experienced Trump and put in effort to make sure Biden won, and what happened? Biden did not move to the left, and he and his ilk are criticizing the left. And now, Dems are saying they'll give us candidates we don't want, and after the way Biden Administration has done throughout the term, a lot of left won't vote for him.

What'd be democratic is giving us more challengers for the primary and not interfering. If they decide to stick with Biden or go with Clinton or Harris, then the loss is on them because they were warned what would happen.

No one has suggested that you can't vote for who you want, the topic is a value judgment on those choices.

If you want to criticize the existing procedure when it comes to incumbent Presidents, then fair enough, that's a topic on it's own.

Personally, I don't think Biden loss probably will be rested on the shoulders of this issue. At least, certainly not entirely.

I dropped out earlier. We learn in school and media how to identify these rhetorics and what they represent. I am horrified how the most stupid Nazi tricks have sipped so deeply into the mindsets of so many Americans.

At least thanks to you for preserving the dignity of your country in this thread.

There are so many serious voices of reason in this conflict, Guterres, the entire UN and all its subdivisions, the Red Cross, heck even freaking Macron, who is otherwise a neoliberal edgelord hating on muslims. It's not what is happening in this thread.

Do you care to identify the most stupid Nazi tricks involved, or do you care to only make snide remarks about how much better equipped you are at identifying fascism compared to everyone else here? Because most of what I've seen you do, intentional or not, is wield German exceptionalism when it comes to antisemitism as a weapon to obfuscate the topic at hand. Mind you, no one in this thread has approached the level of conflation of the Israeli government and Jewry at large that you seem to imply. That's something you've chosen to do in order to scold everyone else. And over what exactly? Historical juxtaposition? Hyperbolic language? Is that the Nazi trick or Hamas propaganda? Is that the real debate in the face of this latest atrocity?

 

[M3J]

I dropped out earlier. We learn in school and media how to identify these rhetorics and what they represent. I am horrified how the most stupid Nazi tricks have sipped so deeply into the mindsets of so many Americans.

At least thanks to you for preserving the dignity of your country in this thread.

There are so many serious voices of reason in this conflict, Guterres, the entire UN and all its subdivisions, the Red Cross, heck even freaking Macron, who is otherwise a neoliberal edgelord hating on muslims. It's not what is happening in this thread.

The level of arrogance you and ninjabot have is quite embarrassing when you're so wrong.

No one has suggested that you can't vote for who you want, the topic is a value judgment on those choices.

If you want to criticize the existing procedure when it comes to incumbent Presidents, then fair enough, that's a topic on it's own.

Personally, I don't think Biden loss probably will be rested on the shoulders of this issue. At least, certainly not entirely.

Um, Biden supporters and Dems are strongly urging on voting for Biden and telling Muslims and families of martyrs to get over the genocide that Biden has helped continue. They keep threatening the anti-Biden Palestinian supporters and left that it's either Biden or Trump, and Trump is the worse choice. That seems a lot like they're suggesting we can't vote for whom we want and that it's either Biden or by not voting for Biden, it's Trump.

I agree, I think it'll be a total of everything that Biden has done, or not done, during his term. On top of supporting the genocide, cost of living has gone up, student loans haven't been cancelled, USA is sending billions of dollars to Israel and Ukraine when American citizens need it more, and women in so many states have lost their reproductive rights. Oh, and child labor is legal again in some states, no? While some or most of these may not be his fault, it happened under his term, and not under Trump's.

Unless Biden starts making moves now to get the left back, he's most likely not going to have a chance. I'm not criticizing the existing procedure, but I'm just saying that for the 2024 election, Dems have been warned that the people who voted for Biden in 2020 will not be voting for him again, and that they need to run with another candidate that's not Clinton or Harris. I don't think even Bernie has a great chance that he did in the previous two elections since he's pro-genocide.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 26, 2023, Original Post Date: Dec 26, 2023 ---

 

[xi0]

Um, Biden supporters and Dems are strongly urging on voting for Biden and telling Muslims and families of martyrs to get over the genocide that Biden has helped continue. They keep threatening the anti-Biden Palestinian supporters and left that it's either Biden or Trump, and Trump is the worse choice. That seems a lot like they're suggesting we can't vote for whom we want and that it's either Biden or by not voting for Biden, it's Trump.

I agree, I think it'll be a total of everything that Biden has done, or not done, during his term. On top of supporting the genocide, cost of living has gone up, student loans haven't been cancelled, USA is sending billions of dollars to Israel and Ukraine when American citizens need it more, and women in so many states have lost their reproductive rights. Oh, and child labor is legal again in some states, no? While some or most of these may not be his fault, it happened under his term, and not under Trump's.

Unless Biden starts making moves now to get the left back, he's most likely not going to have a chance. I'm not criticizing the existing procedure, but I'm just saying that for the 2024 election, Dems have been warned that the people who voted for Biden in 2020 will not be voting for him again, and that they need to run with another candidate that's not Clinton or Harris. I don't think even Bernie has a great chance that he did in the previous two elections since he's pro-genocide.

You're talking like Biden supporters and establishment Dems are handcuffing you to the voting booth. Listen to yourself. Who is the worst choice depends on what you value maybe, and I do fully acknowledge that what's happening in Gaza should be laid at Biden's feet, but it's also true in my eyes that Trump probably would have done the same. So then the vote probably comes down to everything else involved, unfortunately.

Nuance is always helpful when talking about the things that happen under a Presidential term, but obviously his political enemies never pay attention to that in any case.

Democratic presidents don't really get second terms by getting the left back. I think you're over-inflating the impact this might have on the election. Maybe it'd be larger if the election was next month, but it isn't.

 

[M3J]

You're talking like Biden supporters and establishment Dems are handcuffing you to the voting booth. Listen to yourself. Who is the worst choice depends on what you value maybe, and I do fully acknowledge that what's happening in Gaza should be laid at Biden's feet, but it's also true in my eyes that Trump probably would have done the same. So then the vote probably comes down to everything else involved, unfortunately.

Nuance is always helpful when talking about the things that happen under a Presidential term, but obviously his political enemies never pay attention to that in any case.

Democratic presidents don't really get second terms by getting the left back. I think you're over-inflating the impact this might have on the election. Maybe it'd be larger if the election was next month, but it isn't.

I think Trump would have been way worse. It's not like Biden came out and said "Muslims are the enemies!" did he? He's just lying about Hamas. But Trump would have done that and probably not mentioned the fact that there are Palestinian Christians and Jews. And it's annoying that a lot of left and Palestinian supporters don't get that but on the other hand, Biden supporters and Dems are getting super hostile, which is annoying. I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about how they're reacting to others.

I disagree with the left and Palestinian supporters but I also get where Palestinians are coming from in not wanting to vote for Biden, and how Biden supporters are way too hostile. I know under Trump, hate crime against Muslims would go up by twofolds, and so would hate crimes against Jewish people.

I'm not sure in this case, especially given Trump's popularity.

 

[xi0]

I think Trump would have been way worse. It's not like Biden came out and said "Muslims are the enemies!" did he? He's just lying about Hamas. But Trump would have done that and probably not mentioned the fact that there are Palestinian Christians and Jews. And it's annoying that a lot of left and Palestinian supporters don't get that but on the other hand, Biden supporters and Dems are getting super hostile, which is annoying. I'm not talking about me, I'm talking about how they're reacting to others.

I disagree with the left and Palestinian supporters but I also get where Palestinians are coming from in not wanting to vote for Biden, and how Biden supporters are way too hostile. I know under Trump, hate crime against Muslims would go up by twofolds, and so would hate crimes against Jewish people.

I'm not sure in this case, especially given Trump's popularity.

They always are. Their platform is mostly for appearances, their real messaging is about "voting". As in, "vote for us because we're not fucking psychopaths", and that's good enough for them usually. They did the same thing with Hillary and point to Trump's Supreme Court appointees after the fact, completely ignoring there being zero justifiable reason for lifetime appointments in the first place and laying no blame at the feet of RBG or Kennedy.

I do too, and the manner in which some go about it is cringeworthy, but ultimately pragmatic thinking is useful.

I was talking about the Gaza mess' impact on the election.