Discussion Ranking

[Shadowlord123]

Damn it’s been a while since I’ve seen you on here. There are a couple points I disagree with. I think an exhausted FH still low or mid diffs Luslec. I mean, Traumerei only acknowledged Urek and didn’t even care that Luslec was getting some kind of spell ready. Gustang didn’t look worried either. Meanwhile Luslec was looking pretty stressed. He’s a trash talker too, so him being that quiet definitely says something.

Heya, I'm on vacation now, so I'm having plenty of time to post stuff again

I don't think Luslec looked at all stressed, more like locked in. He had in front of him the very people he's wanted to kill for tens of thousands of years, now having nearly exhausted all their strength. It was an opportunity like no other, but he also had to be careful with how he handled the situation because Urek was there, and the FHs are still formidable even if weakened. Not really a situation to trash talk.

There are a couple of reasons as to why I think Luslec is not fodder for a FH:

1. Already talked about it. Gustang mocked Urek for saying a 2v1 was fine when he had brought such an "unwelcome guest" along with him. I think this clearly depicts Luslec as a somewhat relevant player with the capacity to mess things up, at least for an exhausted FH. I doubt the fight would be less than Mid Diff for the weakened FH with that alone. Low Diff feels like too little to warrant this level of acknowledgment. Gustang clearly shows some level of concern for Luslec being there. Doesn't mean he's worried, obviously, but the fact that he'd rather not have Luslec there says plenty about Luslec's strength.

2. SIU already gave Dumas and Tiara gimmicks that approached the base strength of a FH, and I think it's very safe to assume that whatever Luslec can do when going all-out is going to be >> Rosario or the Pen's fire. This already means that Luslec's abilities are not something a FH can treat lightly, regardless of their state.

With all due respect, I don’t think saying “the Boss retreated when Urek arrived” is a strong argument.

His strongest troops were only regent tier, so Urek could casually wipe out the Revolution’s “10 Family Heads” in one attack. What’s the point of the Captain sticking around to stall Urek if it means risking his entire organization getting annihilated?

Luslec, on the other hand, only had Jinsung, Khel, and Garnak behind him. I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t even rank in FUG’s top 5 strongest, so losing them wouldn’t put FUG as a whole at major risk.

Plus, Luslec already has some idea of Urek’s personality since he’s met him before. He knows Urek doesn’t just kill people that easily. The Boss doesn’t know that, so he’s probably thinking, “If he gets serious, he could wipe us all out right now.” He doesn’t know how rarely Urek gets serious or that he usually lets his enemies go, so he chose to leave instead of taking that risk.

Other than that, I agree with everything else. Great analysis as usual.

The Boss' decision to leave was certainly reasonable, but there's no denying he was portrayed as insta-kill fodder for Urek. Had they left a moment later, all of them would have died.

Of course, we have no clue what level of power Urek was using at the Sprout. One could reasonably argue he was using 100% Reinforcement or something close to it. In which case, Boss retreating isn't much of an anti-feat, since it's likely this version of Urek could wipe Luslec instantly in a straight fight as well.

While I could see Boss as TT-level, he's kinda a nothing burger right now. We know he should be above Regents, but he's also canon fodder to Urek. Luslec, meanwhile, fought Urek, stopped him several times, and even injured him. All while significantly holding back. Luslec just looks a lot more impressive on paper.

I have no problem with the Boss being TT-level, but he's gonna have to show it. As of right now, I don't feel the gravitas of an overwhelmingly powerful being on par with Luslec or Adori. The gap between their introductions and portrayal is considerable, IMO.

I would like to add 2 cents on this. Like we saw Edahn seem to be too exhausted after fighting Mago. We know he didn't use so many of his arsenals, but do they matter? Likely not since Edahn himself thought only his main spear could give him true security against Mago and others. He never once mentioned any of his arsenal besides the spear.

Likewise, Gussy having many arsenals doesn't matter. SIU won't bother showing an arc or family for each family leader. Take that library of his, too many books, but used 2-3 only. Likewise Traumerei didn't use elgore, cobalt. Having many arsenals does not matter if they are useless.

Unless he faces someone like shinari, hendo or TP, I don't see him doing any well against other FLs. Most likely he will be used as hype tool for other FLs or SOs.

Gustang having practically infinite versatility on paper does matter, as that makes it very unlikely he's ever gonna be hard-countered in an actual fight (if SIU bothers to write him using his powers properly) and could almost always find ways to hard-counter his opponents instead.

Of course, I do agree that having a lot of options doesn't necessarily mean he'd always have the upper hand in a fight, but I think there are at least a few abilities that would always make him stronger and more formidable to fight.

Take the pen, we know the kind of stuff Tiara could do with it (mimic abilities much stronger than her own, transform into entities with abilities far beyond her own output), and Gustang's is stated to be much stronger than hers. So just imagine the stuff he can do with it.

The purple transformation Dumas had would also give Gustang a big boost. He's almost guaranteed to have it, since the form gave off power similar to that of the FHs (and the power was called "overwhelmingly strict"; not a coincidence given Dumas is Gustang's strictness).

Other than that, we got nothing on the Library's causality manipulation, or perception change. Nothing with Mikel's twisting ability either. Honestly, Gustang practically didn't use his powers at all in that fight, lol. On paper, his arsenal is absurdly broken.

 

[undefined]

Heya, I'm on vacation now, so I'm having plenty of time to post stuff again

I don't think Luslec looked at all stressed, more like locked in. He had in front of him the very people he's wanted to kill for tens of thousands of years, now having nearly exhausted all their strength. It was an opportunity like no other, but he also had to be careful with how he handled the situation because Urek was there, and the FHs are still formidable even if weakened. Not really a situation to trash talk.

There are a couple of reasons as to why I think Luslec is not fodder for a FH:

1. Already talked about it. Gustang mocked Urek for saying a 2v1 was fine when he had brought such an "unwelcome guest" along with him. I think this clearly depicts Luslec as a somewhat relevant player with the capacity to mess things up, at least for an exhausted FH. I doubt the fight would be less than Mid Diff for the weakened FH with that alone. Low Diff feels like too little to warrant this level of acknowledgment. Gustang clearly shows some level of concern for Luslec being there. Doesn't mean he's worried, obviously, but the fact that he'd rather not have Luslec there says plenty about Luslec's strength.

2. SIU already gave Dumas and Tiara gimmicks that approached the base strength of a FH, and I think it's very safe to assume that whatever Luslec can do when going all-out is going to be >> Rosario or the Pen's fire. This already means that Luslec's abilities are not something a FH can treat lightly, regardless of their state.

Dumas’s full power definitely does not approach the base strength of a FH. Remember, Baam put the adult Zahard who appeared on the Hidden Floor and Dumas at similar levels. We know that version of Zahard possessed only a fraction of the real Zahard’s power. We also know the FH’s are definitely above 50% of the real Zahard’s strength, while Dumas is comparable to a small fraction—so like 10% at best(this is raw power btw, not even including their abilties). Also, Baam can’t sense the true depth of a Family Head’s power to begin with, so his comparison between Dumas and the FHs was never reliable in the first place.

As for Tiara, the statement that “her flames are close to a Family Head’s” is crazy ngl. However, I believe it’s an inconsistency in SIU’s power scaling. For example, the version of Dumas that beat Jinsung and Yama in a couple of moves struggled against Ju and Tump—branch heads who are indirectly stated to be inferior to Pudidy. However Pudidy and Jinsung are comparable… so yeah, ridiculous errors in power scaling is not uncommon for SIU. So I feel like we can chalk tiara’s gimmick up to be just a massive outlier and an inconsistency on SIU’s part. Or Tiara was just massively overrating her abilities.

The Boss' decision to leave was certainly reasonable, but there's no denying he was portrayed as insta-kill fodder for Urek. Had they left a moment later, all of them would have died.

Of course, we have no clue what level of power Urek was using at the Sprout. One could reasonably argue he was using 100% Reinforcement or something close to it. In which case, Boss retreating isn't much of an anti-feat, since it's likely this version of Urek could wipe Luslec instantly in a straight fight as well.

While I could see Boss as TT-level, he's kinda a nothing burger right now. We know he should be above Regents, but he's also canon fodder to Urek. Luslec, meanwhile, fought Urek, stopped him several times, and even injured him. All while significantly holding back. Luslec just looks a lot more impressive on paper.

I have no problem with the Boss being TT-level, but he's gonna have to show it. As of right now, I don't feel the gravitas of an overwhelmingly powerful being on par with Luslec or Adori. The gap between their introductions and portrayal is considerable, IMO.

I mean, the Boss has gotten crazy portrayal.

There is the statement, “The Tower’s newest champion had arrived” or something to that effect.

Maschenny appeared to be more serious than we’ve ever seen her when she met the Boss, while he looked quite casual. That scene easily gives me the impression that the Boss is way above Maschenny.

The major organizations, excluding Zahard’s Empire and the Workshop, are led by top Towerborn:

Wolhaiksong: Baek Ryun
FUG: Luslec

So it only makes sense for the Boss to be up there too, imo.

Plus, he’s leading an organization with at least 10 regent-level threats. The strength of those troops far surpasses FUG’s. I feel like the Boss has to be at least as strong as Luslec for all these guys to submit to him.

 

[arrowofsky]

Dumas’s full power definitely does not approach the base strength of a FH. Remember, Baam put the adult Zahard who appeared on the Hidden Floor and Dumas at similar levels. We know that version of Zahard possessed only a fraction of the real Zahard’s power. We also know the FH’s are definitely above 50% of the real Zahard’s strength, while Dumas is comparable to a small fraction—so like 10% at best(this is raw power btw, not even including their abilties). Also, Baam can’t sense the true depth of a Family Head’s power to begin with, so his comparison between Dumas and the FHs was never reliable in the first place.

As for Tiara, the statement that “her flames are close to a Family Head’s” is crazy ngl. However, I believe it’s an inconsistency in SIU’s power scaling. For example, the version of Dumas that beat Jinsung and Yama in a couple of moves struggled against Ju and Tump—branch heads who are indirectly stated to be inferior to Pudidy. However Pudidy and Jinsung are comparable… so yeah, ridiculous errors in power scaling is not uncommon for SIU. So I feel like we can chalk tiara’s gimmick up to be just a massive outlier and an inconsistency on SIU’s part. Or Tiara was just massively overrating her abilities.




I mean, the Boss has gotten crazy portrayal.

There is the statement, “The Tower’s newest champion had arrived” or something to that effect.

Maschenny appeared to be more serious than we’ve ever seen her when she met the Boss, while he looked quite casual. That scene easily gives me the impression that the Boss is way above Maschenny.

The major organizations, excluding Zahard’s Empire and the Workshop, are led by top Towerborn:

Wolhaiksong: Baek Ryun
FUG: Luslec

So it only makes sense for the Boss to be up there too, imo.

Plus, he’s leading an organization with at least 10 regent-level threats. The strength of those troops far surpasses FUG’s. I feel like the Boss has to be at least as strong as Luslec for all these guys to submit to him.

Is that Boss talked to Maschenny and buffed Boss later the same though? I think there are people here who think those are different.

 

[Anne isn't a TT]

Of course, I do agree that having a lot of options doesn't necessarily mean he'd always have the upper hand in a fight, but I think there are at least a few abilities that would always make him stronger and more formidable to fight

Tbh, I don't see him worth investing atp. I am not sure if every FL will get an arc like Traumerei did. Even Jahad family is getting involved now.

Take the pen, we know the kind of stuff Tiara could do with it (mimic abilities much stronger than her own, transform into entities with abilities far beyond her own output), and Gustang's is stated to be much stronger than hers. So just imagine the stuff he can do with it

I doubt Pen is Gussy's power. It was most likely crafted by master in his initial days of climbing. After all almost every item was made by workshop.

The purple transformation Dumas had would also give Gustang a big boost. He's almost guaranteed to have it, since the form gave off power similar to that of the FHs (and the power was called "overwhelmingly strict"; not a coincidence given Dumas is Gustang's strictness).

Idk purple transformation will give him power. But the power Viole felt and made comparison was with spear. Viole even says before he unleashed the spear, I must defeat him.

Other than that, we got nothing on the Library's causality manipulation, or perception change. Nothing with Mikel's twisting ability either. Honestly, Gustang practically didn't use his powers at all in that fight, lol. On paper, his arsenal is absurdly broken

Michel ability isn't something different. We saw penin use word magic too. It's not a game changer against a FL. We also saw Gussy use world shinsu to save Traumerei from V's WD attack. Traumerei only worried about library in his arsenal which he used. I doubt anyone besides him knows Gussy the best among GWs.

--- Double Post Merged, Yesterday at 6:58 PM, Original Post Date: Yesterday at 6:54 PM ---

The major organizations, excluding Zahard’s Empire and the Workshop, are led by top Towerborn:

Wolhaiksong: Baek Ryun
FUG: Luslec

So it only makes sense for the Boss to be up there too, imo.

I don't think Boss is TT. To be a TT, we have seen two conditions must meet. First being a leader. While Boss fulfills this position at a glance but I think the structure is more decentralized. Like there are multiple boss. Don't think there is one true leader of Revs. Other being associated with special irregulars like Adori is with Jahad, Baek works with UM while Mirchea with V while inheriting power from another irregular like Mirchea with Arlene, Baek with the moon irregular and Adori with Hon.

 

[arrowofsky]

I don't think Boss is TT. To be a TT, we have seen two conditions must meet. First being a leader. While Boss fulfills this position at a glance but I think the structure is more decentralized. Like there are multiple boss. Don't think there is one true leader of Revs. Other being associated with special irregulars like Adori is with Jahad, Baek works with UM while Mirchea with V while inheriting power from another irregular like Mirchea with Arlene, Baek with the moon irregular and Adori with Hon.

Moon irregular?

 

[Anne isn't a TT]

Moon irregular?

Yeah he got power of the moon in spin off, he talks about that in chapter 61

 

[undefined]

Is that Boss talked to Maschenny and buffed Boss later the same though? I think there are people here who think those are different.

I think they’re the same person because they have identical scars on the left sides of their faces. Plus, both of them have calculating and scheming personality types. It’s hard for me to believe they’re different people.

--- Double Post Merged, Yesterday at 9:01 PM, Original Post Date: Yesterday at 8:58 PM ---

I don't think Boss is TT. To be a TT, we have seen two conditions must meet. First being a leader. While Boss fulfills this position at a glance but I think the structure is more decentralized. Like there are multiple boss. Don't think there is one true leader of Revs. Other being associated with special irregulars like Adori is with Jahad, Baek works with UM while Mirchea with V while inheriting power from another irregular like Mirchea with Arlene, Baek with the moon irregular and Adori with Hon.

We’ll just have to wait and see. I just don’t see how the leader of such a powerful organization wouldn’t at least be luslec level.

 

[Shadowlord123]

Dumas’s full power definitely does not approach the base strength of a FH. Remember, Baam put the adult Zahard who appeared on the Hidden Floor and Dumas at similar levels. We know that version of Zahard possessed only a fraction of the real Zahard’s power. We also know the FH’s are definitely above 50% of the real Zahard’s strength, while Dumas is comparable to a small fraction—so like 10% at best(this is raw power btw, not even including their abilties). Also, Baam can’t sense the true depth of a Family Head’s power to begin with, so his comparison between Dumas and the FHs was never reliable in the first place.

Dumas' full power in general is far below FH base strength; the only thing that was said to be approaching that was Rosario. It's like a human holding a gun that has far more raw power than they can muster on their own. Same case with Tiara and the pen's flames (though her case is even more extreme).

Of course, we are still talking about the bare minimum a FH can do, which is basically nothing in comparison to what they can do at full strength. But that's already a level of power that would tickle them if they didn't defend or dodge. And Luslec should be far above that.

As for Tiara, the statement that “her flames are close to a Family Head’s” is crazy ngl. However, I believe it’s an inconsistency in SIU’s power scaling. For example, the version of Dumas that beat Jinsung and Yama in a couple of moves struggled against Ju and Tump—branch heads who are indirectly stated to be inferior to Pudidy. However Pudidy and Jinsung are comparable… so yeah, ridiculous errors in power scaling is not uncommon for SIU. So I feel like we can chalk tiara’s gimmick up to be just a massive outlier and an inconsistency on SIU’s part. Or Tiara was just massively overrating her abilities.

I don't think Tiara's statement is inconsistent. The pen was stated to defy the rules of the tower, allowing her to control far more shinsu than she could muster on her own. The flames destroyed the vines of the Sprout on a very deep level, which is something only someone with firepower close to FH base strength could do, according to Gustang. This claim in particular is pretty secure; Baam's claim about Rosario is more dubious for the reasons you said, but I think SIU likely intended to make both gimmicks as comparable to each other in the sense that both approach the base floor of what a FH can do.

I believe the whole Dumas thing can be rationalized. For one, Jinsung and Yama were nerfed and likely not CC Tier when they fought Dumas. For two, Dumas was missing both his arms when he fought the BHs, putting him well beneath the level he was at against Jinsung and Yama. For three, Ju and Tump might be stronger than the average BH and approaching CC Tier. Tump's elephant could easily handle the unignited Rosario spears, something nerfed Jinsung was having trouble with. The elephant could also harm armored Dumas with its strikes, while nerfed Yama couldn't do any meaningful damage. As for Ju, her water pressure attacks were noted to be so powerful that AA was having doubts whether Dumas' spears could fully block them. They were clearly portrayed to be > nerfed Jinsung and nerfed Yama, IMO.

I mean, the Boss has gotten crazy portrayal.

There is the statement, “The Tower’s newest champion had arrived” or something to that effect.

He did say that and then proceeded to run away when the actual champion showed up, being glad that he wasn't insta-wiped alongside his boys

Big talk that he couldn't back up. Simple as that.

Maschenny appeared to be more serious than we’ve ever seen her when she met the Boss, while he looked quite casual. That scene easily gives me the impression that the Boss is way above Maschenny.

Which isn't saying a lot even if true. Maschenny had pretty mid portrayal against a CC Tier like Jinsung. As of right now, I'm having a hard time picturing her as comparable to the likes of Dumas, who are still scrubs to TTs.

The major organizations, excluding Zahard’s Empire and the Workshop, are led by top Towerborn:

Wolhaiksong: Baek Ryun
FUG: Luslec

So it only makes sense for the Boss to be up there too, imo.

Plus, he’s leading an organization with at least 10 regent-level threats. The strength of those troops far surpasses FUG’s. I feel like the Boss has to be at least as strong as Luslec for all these guys to submit to him.

Eh, by that logic, the Boss would even outclass FHs, since his army is far above the strength of a leaderless Great Family. I don't think you can scale him like that.

For all we know, it's possible the power dynamic between the FH wannabes and the Boss is similar to that of Zahard and the FHs (Zahard being for sure stronger, but without a massive suggested power gap).

I don't think it's implausible he could be TT lvl, but I'm gonna need something more than vague hype to put him there.

I doubt Pen is Gussy's power. It was most likely crafted by master in his initial days of climbing. After all almost every item was made by workshop.

The pen was explicitly stated to be Gustang's power. There's no indication it's an item from the Workshop, unlike the Okbi.

Idk purple transformation will give him power. But the power Viole felt and made comparison was with spear. Viole even says before he unleashed the spear, I must defeat him.

Baam made two comparisons. The first compared the power of the form itself. While he noted it to be similar to the FHs in nature, it wasn't comparable in magnitude. The second comparison was specifically between the spear and the FHs, he felt that the spear's power could approach FH base strength.

I think both come from the same source, though; it's all part of that strict power. Baam noted it had the quality to devour everything around it. I think Dumas and the spear's sudden change can both be explained if that power consumed them, changed their form, and boosted them to a whole new level. Just my speculation.

Michel ability isn't something different. We saw penin use word magic too. It's not a game changer against a FL. We also saw Gussy use world shinsu to save Traumerei from V's WD attack. Traumerei only worried about library in his arsenal which he used. I doubt anyone besides him knows Gussy the best among GWs.

Mikel's twisting ability has yet to be shown by someone else. Also, I think it's a bold claim to say it couldn't be something that changed the flow of the fight, given how overpowered it was (a simple gesture of Mikel's hand basically insta-one-shot Hugo by twisting all her bones). That shit boosted at FH lvl could be pretty scary.

Gustang could have developed new things. I mean, Traumerei's power evolved enough to make 3D Disconnection, so it's not implausible for Gustang to have evolved further as well.

 

[Anne isn't a TT]

We’ll just have to wait and see. I just don’t see how the leader of such a powerful organization wouldn’t at least be luslec level.

U should say leaders as there are different bosses. He certainly is not the only one who is leading the faction.

 

[undefined]

Dumas' full power in general is far below FH base strength; the only thing that was said to be approaching that was Rosario. It's like a human holding a gun that has far more raw power than they can muster on their own. Same case with Tiara and the pen's flames (though her case is even more extreme).

Of course, we are still talking about the bare minimum a FH can do, which is basically nothing in comparison to what they can do at full strength. But that's already a level of power that would tickle them if they didn't defend or dodge. And Luslec should be far above that.



I don't think Tiara's statement is inconsistent. The pen was stated to defy the rules of the tower, allowing her to control far more shinsu than she could muster on her own. The flames destroyed the vines of the Sprout on a very deep level, which is something only someone with firepower close to FH base strength could do, according to Gustang. This claim in particular is pretty secure; Baam's claim about Rosario is more dubious for the reasons you said, but I think SIU likely intended to make both gimmicks as comparable to each other in the sense that both approach the base floor of what a FH can do.

I believe the whole Dumas thing can be rationalized. For one, Jinsung and Yama were nerfed and likely not CC Tier when they fought Dumas. For two, Dumas was missing both his arms when he fought the BHs, putting him well beneath the level he was at against Jinsung and Yama. For three, Ju and Tump might be stronger than the average BH and approaching CC Tier. Tump's elephant could easily handle the unignited Rosario spears, something nerfed Jinsung was having trouble with. The elephant could also harm armored Dumas with its strikes, while nerfed Yama couldn't do any meaningful damage. As for Ju, her water pressure attacks were noted to be so powerful that AA was having doubts whether Dumas' spears could fully block them. They were clearly portrayed to be > nerfed Jinsung and nerfed Yama, IMO.



He did say that and then proceeded to run away when the actual champion showed up, being glad that he wasn't insta-wiped alongside his boys

Big talk that he couldn't back up. Simple as that.



Which isn't saying a lot even if true. Maschenny had pretty mid portrayal against a CC Tier like Jinsung. As of right now, I'm having a hard time picturing her as comparable to the likes of Dumas, who are still scrubs to TTs.



Eh, by that logic, the Boss would even outclass FHs, since his army is far above the strength of a leaderless Great Family. I don't think you can scale him like that.

For all we know, it's possible the power dynamic between the FH wannabes and the Boss is similar to that of Zahard and the FHs (Zahard being for sure stronger, but without a massive suggested power gap).

I don't think it's implausible he could be TT lvl, but I'm gonna need something more than vague hype to put him there.

I guess we can agree to disagree until we get more info on the boss.

I feel like SIU is going to upscale Maschenny a lot. The fact she was even in the spinoff shows me how much SIU values her character. I would be shocked if she ends up as only a cc level threat.

 

[Anne isn't a TT]

The pen was explicitly stated to be Gustang's power. There's no indication it's an item from the Workshop, unlike the Okbi.

No, it just said that even tiara ability to create things originally comes from Gussy. Gussy used the same pen to recreate Traumerei's mask. Give the pen to anyone and they could do it too.

Baam made two comparisons. The first compared the power of the form itself. While he noted it to be similar to the FHs in nature, it wasn't comparable in magnitude. The second comparison was specifically between the spear and the FHs, he felt that the spear's power could approach FH base strength.

I think both come from the same source, though; it's all part of that strict power. Baam noted it had the quality to devour everything around it. I think Dumas and the spear's sudden change can both be explained if that power consumed them, changed their form, and boosted them to a whole new level. Just my speculation.

Yes but don't forget, Dumas has gotten 2 items one armour and another spear unlike other librarians who only got one except for Proust. The transformation belongs to armour as we saw he had purple theme visible. Even when his hands were cut off from Traumerei's poison the hands had purple aura oozing from it.

Mikel's twisting ability has yet to be shown by someone else. Also, I think it's a bold claim to say it couldn't be something that changed the flow of the fight, given how overpowered it was (a simple gesture of Mikel's hand basically insta-one-shot Hugo by twisting all her bones). That shit boosted at FH lvl could be pretty scary.

U have to look at the way michel twist Hugo. He just spoke and she twisted. Don't think it's much of a power. We saw Gussy gave out cursed in similar way to holan by speaking the words.

Even assuming your argument is true, do u truly believe if Gussy could twist Traumerei and yes he would no diff him? It only works on someone less powerful.

Rather than the result, I would look at the process, speaking words like word magic in BC. Michel is limited to twisting while Gussy isn't.

Gustang could have developed new things. I mean, Traumerei's power evolved enough to make 3D Disconnection, so it's not implausible for Gustang to have evolved further as well.

Yes he could but unlike Traumerei he never gave out his powers. If u go check be it Dumas words, tiara they say they received characteristics not power.

 

[Demonspeed]

Tbh, I don't see both Gussy and Traumerei as a fighter. Both seem to be supportive warriors at the back helping the team. While Traumerei does look impressive it's also noteworthy he was just spamming one technique all the time

Great Warriors. It doesn't matter if some positions are more supportive. They are stronger than most people in the Tower.

 

[Anne isn't a TT]

Great Warriors. It doesn't matter if some positions are more supportive. They are stronger than most people in the Tower.

Yeah. But do remember that Hon, Edahn and Yurin are stronger in mele combat because they are the true fighters.

Even in a usual fantasy, summoners are usually weak compared to their summons. Gussy was also hinted to be supportive WC.

 

[Shadowlord123]

No, it just said that even tiara ability to create things originally comes from Gussy. Gussy used the same pen to recreate Traumerei's mask. Give the pen to anyone and they could do it too.

Eh, I doubt it. You probably need a specific shinsu quality in order to use the pen properly. If anyone could do what Tiara does with the pen, then Tiara wouldn't be portrayed as special by inheriting this ability from Gustang.

Yes but don't forget, Dumas has gotten 2 items one armour and another spear unlike other librarians who only got one except for Proust. The transformation belongs to armour as we saw he had purple theme visible. Even when his hands were cut off from Traumerei's poison the hands had purple aura oozing from it.

I'm not sold on that either. Dumas has the same type of armor that Karaka has, yet Karaka's has never shown the capacity to transform. It's more likely that the ability to transform belongs to the real Dumas, and since the armor is powered up by him, it can also use the ability.

U have to look at the way michel twist Hugo. He just spoke and she twisted. Don't think it's much of a power. We saw Gussy gave out cursed in similar way to holan by speaking the words.

Even assuming your argument is true, do u truly believe if Gussy could twist Traumerei and yes he would no diff him? It only works on someone less powerful.

Rather than the result, I would look at the process, speaking words like word magic in BC. Michel is limited to twisting while Gussy isn't.

He didn't merely speak, he moved his hand in a certain way as well. Obviously, he wouldn't neg diff any FH with that ability. He could however restrict/slow down their movements, or mess up the techniques they throw at him. It can be an advantage.

Yes he could but unlike Traumerei he never gave out his powers. If u go check be it Dumas words, tiara they say they received characteristics not power.

Tbh, I'm not even sure of that. The only Head Librarian abilities that Gustang used in his fight with Traumerei were Tiara's and Richemond, both of them coincidentally having died/returned to shinsu writing. He never used any ability of the Head Librarians that were still alive (Dumas or Mikel). Maybe he can only have the power back if they die/return to writing. Of course, it could just be a coincidence as well.

I guess we can agree to disagree until we get more info on the boss.

I feel like SIU is going to upscale Maschenny a lot. The fact she was even in the spinoff shows me how much SIU values her character. I would be shocked if she ends up as only a cc level threat.

As of now, I can see Base Maschenny as CC Tier, and Redan/Full Power Maschenny as above CC. Though, I personally don't think that's enough to cover the huge chasm between Regents and CCs.

But we'll have to wait and see. I don't think it's implausible that both the Boss and Maschenny end up stronger than I expect.

 

[arrowofsky]

He didn't merely speak, he moved his hand in a certain way as well. Obviously, he wouldn't neg diff any FH with that ability. He could however restrict/slow down their movements, or mess up the techniques they throw at him. It can be an advantage.

It was weird (or maybe not) that Gustang was quite on the run from Disconnection sheets, so I don't think he can slow down or mess up with any of it. IIRC Gustang directly did something to Holan's tongue to "send a message" to Traumerei, while a hidden impact of what Gustang did turned out to be flaming him completely so he could get out from Holan maze.

 

[Anne isn't a TT]

Eh, I doubt it. You probably need a specific shinsu quality in order to use the pen properly. If anyone could do what Tiara does with the pen, then Tiara wouldn't be portrayed as special by inheriting this ability from Gustang.

When u look at each head librarians u will find out that every one of them has gotten an item like pen for tiara, spear and armor for Dumas, the shield for Richie except for Proust. We saw how weak Proust was without the item.

It's not a coincidence I believe that only head librarians has gotten hold of item. And we also see Gussy use those items like the pen and the shield, it's quite clear. Like how Traumerei gives out his animals to BLs, Gussy gives out his items to HL.

I'm not sold on that either. Dumas has the same type of armor that Karaka has, yet Karaka's has never shown the capacity to transform. It's more likely that the ability to transform belongs to the real Dumas, and since the armor is powered up by him, it can also use the ability

By the same type is they need their heart to be destroyed. Karaka has never shown ability to transform. Dumas armor look like premium version. It could be even possible that Gussy was the one who come up with the idea and Dumas was the first Armour user.

One thing u have to remember is Karaka wear armor to save his life but Dumas, I doubt it. It's most likely playing a pig to eat a tiger. Dumas is the Ace of PB family. Viole also says none likely has ever seen his true power.

He didn't merely speak, he moved his hand in a certain way as well. Obviously, he wouldn't neg diff any FH with that ability. He could however restrict/slow down their movements, or mess up the techniques they throw at him. It can be an advantage.

All I will say is even if he moved his hands doesn't mean Gussy has to. It's a fact that he spoke twist her and Hugo got twisted. Don't think it's much of a brainer to say even if he has twisting abilities it's useless when facing fellow FLs.

Tbh, I'm not even sure of that. The only Head Librarian abilities that Gustang used in his fight with Traumerei were Tiara's and Richemond, both of them coincidentally having died/returned to shinsu writing. He never used any ability of the Head Librarians that were still alive (Dumas or Mikel). Maybe he can only have the power back if they die/return to writing. Of course, it could just be a coincidence as well.

Then how would u explain Tiara ability to not kill Enkidu. He explicitly says only with FLs power could she kill him. If tiara has Gussy's power she would have killed him. Like with Valhalla, Leviathan, Rapid, or even kraken they can kill him.

 

[Shadowlord123]

When u look at each head librarians u will find out that every one of them has gotten an item like pen for tiara, spear and armor for Dumas, the shield for Richie except for Proust. We saw how weak Proust was without the item.

It's not a coincidence I believe that only head librarians has gotten hold of item. And we also see Gussy use those items like the pen and the shield, it's quite clear. Like how Traumerei gives out his animals to BLs, Gussy gives out his items to HL.

I think the item theory falls apart when you look at Mikel. What item did Mikel get from Gustang? I think it's fairly clear that the ability he got from being his "Twisted/Warped" side is the ability to twist things. That already sets a precedent that not all Head Librarians necessarily get items as abilities.

Dumas' carrier also seems unlikely to be the unique ability he inherited from Gustang, IMO. There are 9 other carriers in the Tower that should have similar functions, unless SIU decided to retcon this blog post content too.

By the same type is they need their heart to be destroyed. Karaka has never shown ability to transform. Dumas armor look like premium version. It could be even possible that Gussy was the one who come up with the idea and Dumas was the first Armour user.

One thing u have to remember is Karaka wear armor to save his life but Dumas, I doubt it. It's most likely playing a pig to eat a tiger. Dumas is the Ace of PB family. Viole also says none likely has ever seen his true power.

Eh, the armor was noted to be the same type. Sure, I guess it could be an upgraded version that's only similar to Karaka's, or it can just as easily be an ability that belongs to the real Dumas himself. Agree to disagree here.

All I will say is even if he moved his hands doesn't mean Gussy has to. It's a fact that he spoke twist her and Hugo got twisted. Don't think it's much of a brainer to say even if he has twisting abilities it's useless when facing fellow FLs.

Useless is a very bold claim. The twisting ability would be upgraded to FH lvl if Gustang uses it. Obviously, he wouldn't just insta-twist them and be done with the fight. Not even remotely close, but it's certainly an ability that can be very useful.

Then how would u explain Tiara ability to not kill Enkidu. He explicitly says only with FLs power could she kill him. If tiara has Gussy's power she would have killed him. Like with Valhalla, Leviathan, Rapid, or even kraken they can kill him.

The power likely doesn't remain the exact same when it's passed to another person. The nature is close, but it needs to be the exact same to kill Enkidu. Once Dumas transformed, Baam commented that the power was "close/similar" to the Tower's transcendent beings, not quite the exact same. Obviously, it's much weaker than if they wield it themselves, but it also seems like the nature itself changes slightly.

 

[Anne isn't a TT]

What item did Mikel get from Gustang? I think it's fairly clear that the ability he got from being his "Twisted/Warped" side is the ability to twist things. That already sets a precedent that not all Head Librarians necessarily get items as abilities.

Dumas' carrier also seems unlikely to be the unique ability he inherited from Gustang, IMO. There are 9 other carriers in the Tower that should have similar functions, unless SIU decided to retcon this blog post content too.

Michel got the Sbhs floating carrier. One thing I would like to ask is remove every item from each HLs, how powerful they would be?
Yuri would whoop Tiara's ass. Even Jinsung would have killed Dumas with DTG.

the armor was noted to be the same type. Sure, I guess it could be an upgraded version that's only similar to Karaka's, or it can just as easily be an ability that belongs to the real Dumas himself. Agree to disagree here

Yes agreed but u can't deny that when armour Dumas was also in similar purple form when he fought RKB or Ju and tump. It's the same when he does purple transformation inside the armor.

By same type means there could be different types of armor. The only thing matches is only by destroying the heart can they die. Other than that there's nothing common. After all Dumas armor was a gift from Gussy while Jinsung gave it to Karaka.

Useless is a very bold claim. The twisting ability would be upgraded to FH lvl if Gustang uses it. Obviously, he wouldn't just insta-twist them and be done with the fight. Not even remotely close, but it's certainly an ability that can be very useful.

Well if u believe twisting is a useful ability I have nothing to argue. I personally don't see it very effective or even useful. Like against towerborns we saw how Gussy killed Perseus with just ashes of his cigarette buds.

Against fellow FLs or irregulars it's a useless ability just like his Sbhs. After all Gussy only cared about Rupture of Traumerei while Traumerei cared only about the Library. These 2 probably know each other the best.

The power likely doesn't remain the exact same when it's passed to another person. The nature is close, but it needs to be the exact same to kill Enkidu. Once Dumas transformed, Baam commented that the power was "close/similar" to the Tower's transcendent beings, not quite the exact same. Obviously, it's much weaker than if they wield it themselves, but it also seems like the nature itself changes slightly

Yes but the power is from items. Again. Like compare Proust he barely did anything. Out of all the HLs, he had the worst portrayal or feats. The reason he didn't had any items in his bag. Like I said u could remove the items from other HLs they are just average like Hugo level.

 

[Shadowlord123]

Michel got the Sbhs floating carrier. One thing I would like to ask is remove every item from each HLs, how powerful they would be?
Yuri would whoop Tiara's ass. Even Jinsung would have killed Dumas with DTG.

The Po Bidau have more than one floating carrier like that, so that's unlikely to be the unique ability Mikel inherited. It is far more natural that the twisted side of Gustang inherited the ability to twist things.

Without those items, Tiara would be weaker than Yuri. Dumas without the armor is stronger than with the armor, so Jinsung would get smashed even harder. Dumas in his real body would never risk tanking DTG.

Well if u believe twisting is a useful ability I have nothing to argue. I personally don't see it very effective or even useful. Like against towerborns we saw how Gussy killed Perseus with just ashes of his cigarette buds.

Against fellow FLs or irregulars it's a useless ability just like his Sbhs. After all Gussy only cared about Rupture of Traumerei while Traumerei cared only about the Library. These 2 probably know each other the best.

Disconnection and Library are just among the most OP assets they have, but that doesn't make the rest of their abilities irrelevant.

Yes but the power is from items. Again. Like compare Proust he barely did anything. Out of all the HLs, he had the worst portrayal or feats. The reason he didn't had any items in his bag. Like I said u could remove the items from other HLs they are just average like Hugo level.

The power is from items in the case of Tiara and Richemond (though I'd argue that they'd need to have specific qualities/powers within themselves to use the items properly). It's very unlikely Mikel's power comes from an item at all, and Dumas' power also has a good case to not be an item.

Also, Proust having the worst portrayal and feats isn't really accurate. He easily stopped Robadon's Primal Punch, and Gran Abuelo attacks. He was called one of the highest-tier Light-bearers in the Tower, with Robadon noting it wouldn't be easy at all to get past him. And for what it's worth, he was ranked #2 within the Po Bidau army. Getting one-shot by Adori isn't really an anti-feat. He didn't show much, but after Dumas, he's the one who has the best case to be the strongest (maybe alongside Tiara).

 

[Anne isn't a TT]

The Po Bidau have more than one floating carrier like that, so that's unlikely to be the unique ability Mikel inherited. It is far more natural that the twisted side of Gustang inherited the ability to twist things.

Yes all PB floating carrier is equipped with SD but not every one can fire Sbhs. Only the one which is commanded by Michel is able to do so.

Dumas without the armor is stronger than with the armor, so Jinsung would get smashed even harder. Dumas in his real body would never risk tanking DTG

Ur only using a armor but forgot that he also uses spear. Viole's DTG made Dumas feel threatened, that was when he was without armor or spear. That Dumas will die by Jinsung DTG. And Jinsung the one in S2 is stronger. We saw Dumas overpowered Jinsung only with Rosario before he shattered his spears.

Disconnection and Library are just among the most OP assets they have, but that doesn't make the rest of their abilities irrelevant.

Ur saying this even after seeing the fight? Why do u think Traumerei only spammed Rupture after Rupture. Why do u think Gussy only spammed library after library (Seraphim of light, Prometheus, Unos, 400 days flood)? Because only that could make a difference.

The power is from items in the case of Tiara and Richemond (though I'd argue that they'd need to have specific qualities/powers within themselves to use the items properly). It's very unlikely Mikel's power comes from an item at all, and Dumas' power also has a good case to not be an item.

I have said everything in defense of the items. U can believe in your opinion. Lastly I will just say it's not a coincidence that each HL has gotten an item from Gussy just like each BLs has gotten shinhueh from Traumerei. Like I said remove the items, they scale way lower.

Also, Proust having the worst portrayal and feats isn't really accurate. He easily stopped Robadon's Primal Punch, and Gran Abuelo attacks. He was called one of the highest-tier Light-bearers in the Tower, with Robadon noting it wouldn't be easy at all to get past him. And for what it's worth, he was ranked #2 within the Po Bidau army. Getting one-shot by Adori isn't really an anti-feat. He didn't show much, but after Dumas, he's the one who has the best case to be the strongest (maybe alongside Tiara).

In regards to Proust, the attack he stopped from Robadon is the one whose force had already destroyed Gir arm. And Robadon is a close fighter. We saw Yama destroy the barrier who scale lower than Robadon.

As for Adori one shot, I for one always believe that if Proust had an item he wouldn't have been one shotted. I doubt we will ever see what item he got. It's similar to Robadon vs tiara would go. Tiara will likely put up a fight if she has a pen before losing but without pen will get one shot like Hugo.