Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

You dont need too, i read your explanation of how magic power relates to durability and i simply disagree, Gray doesnt have spriggan level MP, yet his durability is at least as strong as a spriggans likely far stronger.

Gray doesn't have Spriggan Level MP? Based on what? Just a couple chapters ago, we clearly saw magic power flowing from his body. If that isn't Spriggan Level MP, I don't know what is.

Not at all, i agree, increased magic power could be the reason he is immune to hax, doesnt mean his durability is better than its normally incredibly low level though.

The more magic power a character has, the stronger they are offensively (attack power) and defensively (durability). This holds true for most characters in the series.

Uh....So...? I'm didnt say that Neinahart is weak overall, i said that without his Historia he is incredibly weak, meaning.....without his historia he is incredibly weak. Natsu oneshotted Neinhart without his Historia, Jellal oneshotted Neinhart without his Historia, it is only natural to determine that Neinhart isnt a capable fighter without them and that his durability is fitting for someone who doesnt fight on the front lines.
If we were putting Enhanced Neinhart with God Serena, Bradman and Wahl Historia's at his side i might even say he gives Natsu a harder fight than Jacob, and probably even beats Jellal, but we arent talking about Neinhart with his Historia are we? We are talking about Neinhart on his own, so i dont know why you are bringing up how unfair it is that Erza gets all her skills while Neinhart doesnt, because the very premise of this argument has Neinhart at a disadvantage.

Without his Historias, Neinhart is weak offensively. This doesn't have anything to do with his defense. The reason why Jellal was able to one-shot Neinhart was because he was angry meaning he was pretty much going all out. Natsu, on the other hand defeated him casually through PoF.

Enchanted Neinhart doesn't need his Historias. He is already strong enough. That is why he only went looking for Erza after Eileen enhanced his stats. Besides, he received new attacks like the one he used against Brandish. As far I'm concerned, Enchanted Neinhart is on a whole different level compared to his Base Form and Natsu one-shotting him was just plain illogical.

You're the one with the circular argument buddy you are essentially saying, "i think Neinhart is to strong for what actually happened even though it happened". Oh and my argument has never been that Natsu was "strong" just that Neinhart has terrible durability.

I never said Neinhart was strong. I agree that Natsu would beat him in a fight. Even his Enhanced version. What I disagree with is the difficulty and the inconsistency of Natsu's power level as a result of PoF.

Oh yeah, two attacks, well then, there isnt anything to complain about is there? Neinhart got beaten by two attacks, a new record for him.
A much simpler explanation for Jellal needing more effort than Natsu is Natsu being stronger than Jellal, we dont have to go around calling characters inconsistent.

I only call something inconsistent when it is. It's not like I'm trying to bash them. I don't even hate Natsu as a character.

Had Natsu one-shotted Jacob in Base Form with a Casual Spell, then I would agree. You're not understanding my point. I'm not purely basing Natsu's power level in comparison to Jellal. I'm basing his power level on what he has shown in previous feats compared to his current feats. And if you think Base Natsu is many times stronger than Full Power Jellal, then I guess we'll just disagree.

Yeah, he felt it necessary to use that to beat Jacob, didnt feel it necessary to beat Neinhart i.e Jacob>Neinhart in terms of durability.
As i said, Neinhart isnt a close up fighter, being enchanted doesnt automatically make him better than someone who is.

You act like Jacob is a high-tier Spriggan. This guy is literally the weakest besides Neinhart. Hiro Mashima even acknowledged that this character turned out to be a joke. So I still don't see what you're basing your claims off of when you say Jacob is more durable than Enchanted Neinhart.

Because Jacob is more suited to CQC and is better at dealing with it, getting enchanted simply wasnt enough to put Neinhart on that level.

Why not? Enhanced Neinhart overwhelmed Brandish and was even giving Natsu a hard time until Power of Friendship kicked in. If anything, Enchanted Neinhart is on the same level as Jacob.

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Ppl complain bout Natsu one shotting neinhart. Erza fans forget erza fought and beat a very strong enemy without any senses. She literally had no chance. They forget Laxus living despite his body being full of MBP for a FULL YEAR! This dude has to have enough durability to tanks augusts nuke lol... yet he doesnt.... Gray who literally two-three shotted Invel who is stronger than Neinhart. And forget that bisca with jupiter beat the shit outta Ajeel. Thats the kind of fandome we have. The fans destroy FT even more than mashima does imo

I'm not just complaining about Natsu. Virtually every single character has had at least one PoF moment or something that didn't make sense. It's just that some are worse than others. If I see another character using PoF or having inconsistent power levels, I will voice my opinion about it regardless of whether I favor the character or not. In fact, there is one that I want to mention but I can't right now because it is against the rules to talk about spoilers until after a certain period of time has passed. And I'm going to use that example to reinforce what I've been saying in the past few pages.

 

[Seven777]

Gray doesn't have Spriggan Level MP? Based on what? Just a couple chapters ago, we clearly saw magic power flowing from his body. If that isn't Spriggan Level MP, I don't know what is.

Based on him crapping his pants at the mere sight of Brandish.
MP flowing means he was mad, and that he has MP, nothing more, certainly doesnt prove its spriggan level.

The more magic power a character has, the stronger they are offensively (attack power) and defensively (durability). This holds true for most characters in the series.

Even the offense part isnt necessarily true, though i admit its a better argument than defense.
Zeref with infinite MP still needs Larcade, immortality and an entire nation just to fight on par with Acnologia, going by your logic Zeref should be able to solo him with just Fairy Heart.
Physical might, the strength of spells and the willpower of the wizard all affect offense and defense, simple magic power doesnt determine everything.

Without his Historias, Neinhart is weak offensively. This doesn't have anything to do with his defense. The reason why Jellal was able to one-shot Neinhart was because he was almost at full power. Natsu, on the other hand defeated him casually through PoF. Unless you want to tell me that Base Natsu is a lot stronger than Jellal at Full Power?

And without people to get in the way of him getting hit he is apparently weak defensively too. Base Natsu stronger than Jellal? Sure. Casual Base Natsu Stronger than Full Powered Jellal? No, cause Jellal didnt beat Neinhart with his full power, Grand Chariot is mid tier.

Enchanted Neinhart doesn't need his Historias. He is already strong enough. That is why he only went looking for Erza after Eileen enhanced his stats. Besides, he received new attacks like the one he used against Brandish. As far I'm concerned, Enchanted Neinhart is on a whole different level from his Base Form and Natsu one-shotting him was just plain illogical.

Enchanted Neinhart THOUGHT he was strong enough to beat ERZA, doesnt mean he stands a chance against Natsu, or even Erza for that matter(lets face it, villains overestimate themselves and underestimate their opponents) Nienhart had also only seen Erza in action after she was injured by Azir.

I never said Neinhart was strong. I agree that Natsu would beat him in a fight even his Enhanced version. What I disagree with the majority here is the difficulty and the inconsistency of Natsu's power level as a result of PoF.



I only call something inconsistent when it is. It's not like I'm trying to bash them. I don't even hate Natsu as a character.

Nothing inconsistent about a guy that has NO durability feats, continuing to have none in his rematch.

Had Natsu one-shorted Jacob in Base Form with a Casual Spell, the I would agree. You're not understanding my point. I'm not purely basing Natsu's power level in comparison to Jellal. I'm basing his power level on what he has shown in previous feats compared to his current feats. And if you think Base Natsu is many times stronger than Full Power Jellal, then I guess we'll just disagree or this will become an argument.

Jacob is better suited for close combat, another simple explanation.

You act like Jacob is a high-tier Spriggan. This guy is literally the weakest besides Neinhart. Hiro Mashima even acknowledged that this character turned out to be a joke. So I still don't see what you're basing your claims off of when you say Jacob is more durable than Enchanted Neinhart.

I dont, Jacob is mid tier imo, i even said his durability was average a few comments back.
I already told you what i am basing Jacob's durability off, a stronger attack was needed to beat him.

Why not? Enhanced Neinhart overwhelmed Brandish and was even giving Natsu a hard time until Power of Friendship kicked in. If anything, Enchanted Neinhart is on the same level as Jacob.

Because he got stomped.
His attack on Natsu/Brandish was also a ranged attack, not a physical one, not a good example of improved physical stats.

 

[SirSamuel016]

In Fairy Tail, durability is associated with magic power. So an increase in magic power is technically an increase in durability. This is demonstrated by the fact that the Alvarez Soldiers are one-shottable but not when they became Berserkers. Even Erza's attacks were shown to be less effective on them.

I'd disagree with this unless you can show us exactly where it's been stated that durability is directly associated with magic power. I think you like a fair few others expected too much out of Neinhart's enchantment. What we witnessed was his magic power and attack power increase, but nothing more. If magic power is related to durability like you claim, then punches like Natsu's probably shouldn't have dropped Neinhart like that even though Natsu has impressive attack power, but really they did because of both the attack power Natus was dishing out and Neinhart's poor durability which can be related to his physicals. It certainly seemed to me that he hadn't been enhanced durability wise.

As for the berserkers, well berserker was a different enchantment altogether. It had a slightly different effect due to it focusing even more on enhancing the strength and durability of the soldiers at the cost of their ability to reason, where as Neinhart's was more toned down in a sense.

 

[sharkai]

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I don't decide what is considered plot. I just analyze the fights and tell exactly the way it is. In fact, it is of no use to me to decide which feats I like and which ones I don't. I don't have a favorite character here. And even with characters I like, I still criticize them of their power levels if their feats are inconsistent. Every character has won due to PoF or plot. Some more than others. And those feats shouldn't be counted otherwise you would be left with two possible power levels for a certain character (which doesn't make sense). If you are offended because you think I am specifically hating on Natsu, I'm not.

Expect me to ignore a feat from a specific character in this week's chapter if what is shown so far is true.


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hold on
You clearly told me you use pof as well for power ranking. That is why you said gray was stronger than erza, even though it was pure pof moment
But now you want ignore pof moment of one of the most hated and underrated character of fairy tail.
That definitely doesn't seems fair

 

[EdwardRictofin]

Well, in order to be able to kill Zeref, END has to be strong enough otherwise how can he last long enough to be able to kill him?

No. Igneel power was not enough to make a dent in Zerefs body. Now END and Gray are fighting and it doesn't look like Gray or Natsu are up to par with that strength. Not even close.

 

[Boomburst]

No. Igneel power was not enough to make a dent in Zerefs body. Now END and Gray are fighting and it doesn't look like Gray or Natsu are up to par with that strength. Not even close.

Natsu with Igneel's power was literally one attack away from killing Zeref, so...

 

[Axiomus]

I can buy that durability is associated with magical power. Maybe not in a 1:1 ratio, but I generally expect stronger mages to be able to take more hits.

I will generally view characters with higher magical power to be more durable unless a character with lower magical power has a magic that alters their body. This can offset the power difference in some cases.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Based on him crapping his pants at the mere sight of Brandish.
MP flowing means he was mad, and that he has MP, nothing more, certainly doesnt prove its spriggan level.

That is extreme bias and a poor response. Natsu was also shocked by Brandish's magic.

MP flowing means a great boost in magic power. If you don't see that, then I don't know what to tell you. A prime example of this was when Natsu unleashed Igneel's power.

Even the offense part isnt necessarily true, though i admit its a better argument than defense.
Zeref with infinite MP still needs Larcade, immortality and an entire nation just to fight on par with Acnologia, going by your logic Zeref should be able to solo him with just Fairy Heart.
Physical might, the strength of spells and the willpower of the wizard all affect offense and defense, simple magic power doesnt determine everything.

My logic does not imply that Zeref can solo Acnologia with Fairy Heart. I specifically stated that magic power helps increase a person's attack power and defense. I never said they are equal. Besides, Acnologia is too strong for the likes of Zeref.

Also, you just proved my point. Zeref with Fairy Heart would be a lot more effective than Zeref with his Alvarez Empire. August, the strongest mage of the Spriggan 12, implies he stands no chance against Acnologia. So Fairy Heart (MP) is in fact a big deal.

And without people to get in the way of him getting hit he is apparently weak defensively too. Base Natsu stronger than Jellal? Sure. Casual Base Natsu Stronger than Full Powered Jellal? No, cause Jellal didnt beat Neinhart with his full power, Grand Chariot is mid tier.

I don't understand what you're trying to get at. Historias still have no effect on defense. It's that simple.

If you think Base Natsu is stronger than Jellal, then you will eat your own words when Jellal gets another feat to prove himself. I honestly don't know anybody who would say that except for a select few. As for Grand Chariot, I never said that was a high-tier spell. Actually, I even labeled it as a "Medium-Tier Spell" in a previous post. When I said Jella was at full power, I was referencing the environmental change and the fact that Jellal was angry. So I don't know what you're trying to prove here.

Enchanted Neinhart THOUGHT he was strong enough to beat ERZA, doesnt mean he stands a chance against Natsu, or even Erza for that matter(lets face it, villains overestimate themselves and underestimate their opponents) Nienhart had also only seen Erza in action after she was injured by Azir.

No. Eileen was the one who deemed that Neinhart could take on Erza. Why would she release him if she couldn't amplify his powers enough to beat Erza, especially after he explicitly stated that he can't defeat Erza?

Nothing inconsistent about a guy that has NO durability feats, continuing to have none in his rematch.

For the last time, you have no proof to back this up with the exception of Natsu's feat. I already told you that Neinhart was legitimately one-shotted by Jellal because Jellal not only used a fairly strong spell, but he was also going all out. As for Natsu, he was using PoF.

Jacob is better suited for close combat, another simple explanation.

CQC only matters when the character physically tries to block an attack. Both Neinhart and Jacob "tanked" Natsu's attack meaning close-quarters-combat is irrelevant here. What matters is durability. So your explanation is has some flaws.

I dont, Jacob is mid tier imo, i even said his durability was average a few comments back.
I already told you what i am basing Jacob's durability off, a stronger attack was needed to beat him.

If the criteria for durability is a "stronger attack required to beat somebody", then Ikusa-Tsunagi > Spriggans since Natsu used a FDK spell on him.

Because he got stomped.
His attack on Natsu/Brandish was also a ranged attack, not a physical one, not a good example of improved physical stats.

Physical stats are dependent on magical power. At least in this manga. So because Neinhart was amplified in MP, it is perfectly reasonable to say that their durability is higher.

This is exactly why Elfman is not durable even though he is a giant. He lacks magic power.

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I'd disagree with this unless you can show us exactly where it's been stated that durability is directly associated with magic power. I think you like a fair few others expected too much out of Neinhart's enchantment. What we witnessed was his magic power and attack power increase, but nothing more. If magic power is related to durability like you claim, then punches like Natsu's probably shouldn't have dropped Neinhart like that even though Natsu has impressive attack power, but really they did because of both the attack power Natus was dishing out and Neinhart's poor durability which can be related to his physicals. It certainly seemed to me that he hadn't been enhanced durability wise.

As for the berserkers, well berserker was a different enchantment altogether. It had a slightly different effect due to it focusing even more on enhancing the strength and durability of the soldiers at the cost of their ability to reason, where as Neinhart's was more toned down in a sense.

Its not stated. Its shown. Tell me why Elfman is a fodder even though he is arguably one of the most muscular characters in the series. Because of his lack in magic power. Similarly, why are characters like Dimaria and Brandish durable despite their physical appearance? Because they have high magic power. I really don't need any more proof than this to show you that magic power affects durability.

Losing the sense to reason is not even related to durability. You can argue that the berserkers were enchanted more than Neinhart (even though that is a baseless assumption), but what you can't deny is that Neinhart was enhanced so much to the point Brandish's magic didn't work on him. So your point is not valid.

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hold on
You clearly told me you use pof as well for power ranking. That is why you said gray was stronger than erza, even though it was pure pof moment
But now you want ignore pof moment of one of the most hated and underrated character of fairy tail.
That definitely doesn't seems fair

I never said such a thing. You must have misunderstood me. I explicitly stated that I am against the use of PoF and Nakama Power in Power Rankings.

As for Gray, I never considered his feat PoF. He was just angry and going all out like Jellal. Gray is stronger by Erza and I still stand by that.

I'm not trying to bash Natsu if that is what you're trying to accuse me of. I respect him as a character and I like that he has a good heart. My only problem is when that affects his fights.

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If I am not making sense here, refer to Post #5337 by [B]Axiomus[/B]. That is exactly what I'm trying to say.

 

[SirSamuel016]

Its not stated. Its shown. Tell me why Elfman is a fodder even though he is arguably one of the most muscular characters in the series. Because of his lack in magic power. Similarly, why are characters like Dimaria and Brandish durable despite their physical appearance? Because they have high magic power. I really don't need any more proof than this to show you that magic power affects durability.

Eh, I'd agree that it's partially influential on durability but not the full picture of it. Neinhart still got taken down fairly quickly by punches, so if magic power is fully influential on durability like you're suggesting then that just gives Natsu an even greater feat there by beating Neinhart. I don't believe Neinhart's durabiity was raised when he had his magic power and attack power raised, but if it was which I doubt, then that just shows that Natsu's attack power is that strong that he can do that to Neinhart. I do believe that Neinhart has some of the poorest durability going around for Spriggans, but it might be more of a physical thing than a magic power thing.

Losing the sense to reason is not even related to durability. You can argue that the berserkers were enchanted more than Neinhart (even though that is a baseless assumption), but what you can't deny is that Neinhart was enhanced so much to the point Brandish's magic didn't work on him. So your point is not valid.

Go back and read my post again. I said the berserker enchantment increases the strength and durability of someone tenfold, but at the same time they lose the ability to reason. Why wouldn't the berserker enchantment technically be the stronger enchantment? In terms of combat ability, that goes through the roof (attack power and durability), and it was a named enchantment too. Neinhart's enchantment didn't have a name, which from that you can assume it was a more, for lack of a better word, 'casual' enchantment that raised his attack power and magic power.

 

[WoWfan]

This is how I rank the characters

1. Igneel
2. Acnologia
3. Zeref
4. Spriggans
5. FT top S-Class Wizards/GOI
6. Elite FT wizards
7. Everyone else.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Eh, I'd agree that it's partially influential on durability but not the full picture of it. Neinhart still got taken down fairly quickly by punches, so if magic power is fully influential on durability like you're suggesting then that just gives Natsu an even greater feat there by beating Neinhart. I don't believe Neinhart's durabiity was raised when he had his magic power and attack power raised, but if it was which I doubt, then that just shows that Natsu's attack power is that strong that he can do that to Neinhart. I do believe that Neinhart has some of the poorest durability going around for Spriggans, but it might be more of a physical thing than a magic power thing.

It would only be a greater feat if PoF was not involved. Neinhart may have have the worst durability of the Spriggans but not to the point that he can easily be one-shotted by a casual spell from a character in base form. The enchantment should easily prevent that from happening.

Go back and read my post again. I said the berserker enchantment increases the strength and durability of someone tenfold, but at the same time they lose the ability to reason. Why wouldn't the berserker enchantment technically be the stronger enchantment? In terms of combat ability, that goes through the roof (attack power and durability), and it was a named enchantment too. Neinhart's enchantment didn't have a name, which from that you can assume it was a more, for lack of a better word, 'casual' enchantment that raised his attack power and magic power.

I read your post again and I still don't see your point. Just because the Berserker Enchantment took away the Alvarez Troops' ability to reason, that doesn't mean it was better than Neinhart's enchantment. Their powers increasing many times over means nothing considering Neinhart also had his power amplified by a significant amount. This is shown through the aura surrounding Neinhart and the passive ability to negate Brandish's magic.

As for Neinhart's enchantment, we don't know if it was named or not. It was off-paneled. So it would be pure speculation to assume so.

 

[Jean Grey]

lets just say 1 Berserker >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Neinhart.


that guy I pathetic. I hope that guy gets killed by Irene because of how useless he is. for the love of God, Natsu put more effort against Bluenote then against Neinhart LMAO

 

[SirSamuel016]

It would only be a greater feat if PoF was not involved. Neinhart may have have the worst durability of the Spriggans but not to the point that he can easily be one-shotted by a casual spell from a character in base form. The enchantment should easily prevent that from happening.

I don't believe PoF was involved in that fight. If it was then, you're saying almost everything in the manga uses PoF.
If you want to be technical about it, Neinhart was hit with two punches but it's not too big a deal. What you're assuming here is that Natsu serious in base shouldn't be enough to drop Neinhart that easily due to to Neinhart's durability being increased from his enchantment, but there is nothing to say that:
1. Neinhart's durability was increased by the enchantment and
2. Natsu's attack power in base isn't enough to be able to do serious damage to a Spriggan.
Clearly from what we've seen in the manga, Neinhart's durability was not increased from the enchantment and Natsu's attack power in base is enough to drop a Spriggan like Neinhart.

I read your post again and I still don't see your point. Just because the Berserker Enchantment took away the Alvarez Troops' ability to reason, that doesn't mean it was better than Neinhart's enchantment. Their powers increasing many times over means nothing considering Neinhart also had his power amplified by a significant amount. This is shown through the aura surrounding Neinhart and the passive ability to negate Brandish's magic.

As for Neinhart's enchantment, we don't know if it was named or not. It was off-paneled. So it would be pure speculation to assume so.

If you consider the scaling for the soldiers and the effect of the berserker enchantment to Neinhart and the enchantment he received, one is clearly more powerful than the other. The soldiers' power was increased tenfold in terms of what they used to be, whereas Neinhart's strength wasn't shown to have increased by the same sort of level. If he had been given the berserker enchantment, then he would've been much stronger imo from what we've seen of the two enchantments, and I'd say the berserker enchantment is the more serious one of the two. Also, we saw Neinhart change right before Irene in the guild from the enchantment so I wouldn't call that being off-paneled as it is pretty clear that is when he was enchanted.

 

[Seven777]

That is extreme bias and a poor response. Natsu was also shocked by Brandish's magic.

Not bias at all, what is bias is you ignoring the fact that Gray had never felt MP like that before, he doesnt have spriggan level MP, doesnt mean he isnt a spriggan level combatant.

MP flowing means a great boost in magic power. If you don't see that, then I don't know what to tell you. A prime example of this was when Natsu unleashed Igneel's power.

A boost doesnt mean spriggan level.

My logic does not imply that Zeref can solo Acnologia with Fairy Heart. I specifically stated that magic power helps increase a person's attack power and defense. I never said they are equal. Besides, Acnologia is too strong for the likes of Zeref.

Alright then your logic implies that with Fairy Heart Zeref has greater attack and defense than Acnologia.

Also, you just proved my point. Zeref with Fairy Heart would be a lot more effective than Zeref with his Alvarez Empire. August, the strongest mage of the Spriggan 12, implies he stands no chance against Acnologia. So Fairy Heart (MP) is in fact a big deal.

A big deal, but not the whole deal, as shown by Acno, a guy who doesnt have infinite MP still being to powerful.

I don't understand what you're trying to get at. Historias still have no effect on defense. It's that simple.

They prevent him from getting hit though by fighting in his place.

If you think Base Natsu is stronger than Jellal, then you will eat your own words when Jellal gets another feat to prove himself. I honestly don't know anybody who would say that except for a select few. As for Grand Chariot, I never said that was a high-tier spell. Actually, I even labeled it as a "Medium-Tier Spell" in a previous post. When I said Jella was at full power, I was referencing the environmental change and the fact that Jellal was angry. So I don't know what you're trying to prove here.

So it comes down to you not wanting Natsu stronger than Jellal, alright. Environment changing is situational as shown by Natsu not melting everything every time he fights, like the GMG stadium.

No. Eileen was the one who deemed that Neinhart could take on Erza. Why would she release him if she couldn't amplify his powers enough to beat Erza, especially after he explicitly stated that he can't defeat Erza?

You are assuming that Eileen thinks Erza is spriggan tier like Natsu, which i doubt she does cause spriggans rarely acknowledge the strength of their opponents.

For the last time, you have no proof to back this up with the exception of Natsu's feat. I already told you that Neinhart was legitimately one-shotted by Jellal because Jellal not only used a fairly strong spell, but he was also going all out. As for Natsu, he was using PoF.

Why would i need to exclude Natsu's feat? It is proof enough, you dont get to pick apart what happens in the manga.

CQC only matters when the character physically tries to block an attack. Both Neinhart and Jacob "tanked" Natsu's attack meaning close-quarters-combat is irrelevant here. What matters is durability. So your explanation is has some flaws.

CQC experience implies Jacob is far more used to taking physical attacks than Neinhart who has people fight for him.

If the criteria for durability is a "stronger attack required to beat somebody", then Ikusa-Tsunagi > Spriggans since Natsu used a FDK spell on him.

'Fraid not, Ikusatsunagi<Spriggans, Demolition Fist alone was enough to take him out, while Jacob needed both FDK mode and Demolition Fist together to beat him.

Physical stats are dependent on magical power. At least in this manga. So because Neinhart was amplified in MP, it is perfectly reasonable to say that their durability is higher.

They are dependent, but not entirely so, as shown by the vast difference in physical abilities displayed by different spriggans.

This is exactly why Elfman is not durable even though he is a giant. He lacks magic power.

I said that MP wasnt the only thing that effects durability, not that it wasnt a factor at all.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

I don't believe PoF was involved in that fight. If it was then, you're saying almost everything in the manga uses PoF.
If you want to be technical about it, Neinhart was hit with two punches but it's not too big a deal. What you're assuming here is that Natsu serious in base shouldn't be enough to drop Neinhart that easily due to to Neinhart's durability being increased from his enchantment, but there is nothing to say that:
1. Neinhart's durability was increased by the enchantment and
2. Natsu's attack power in base isn't enough to be able to do serious damage to a Spriggan.
Clearly from what we've seen in the manga, Neinhart's durability was not increased from the enchantment and Natsu's attack power in base is enough to drop a Spriggan like Neinhart.

Natsu should be able to beat Jacob in Base Form. But not with the difficulty we saw (meaning a one-shot or two-shot). What makes the feat even less believable is the fact that he used a casual spell to defeat him. Had Natsu used an FDK spell in Base Form, I would be less critical of this.

I don't understand your two points. Your first one literally contradicts the previous sentence. And your second one isn't even relevant considering there is no evidence to prove it.

Saying Neinhart's durability was not increased is absolute denial of what actually happened. Even though we don't have proof that Eileen's magic enhanced Neinhart's durability (which could be true), we know for a fact that Neinhart's magic power had increased. And as I previously explained, an extreme boost in magic power would increase a character's durability. Size doesn't judge one's durability in Fairy Tail. It's magic power.

If you consider the scaling for the soldiers and the effect of the berserker enchantment to Neinhart and the enchantment he received, one is clearly more powerful than the other. The soldiers' power was increased tenfold in terms of what they used to be, whereas Neinhart's strength wasn't shown to have increased by the same sort of level. If he had been given the berserker enchantment, then he would've been much stronger imo from what we've seen of the two enchantments, and I'd say the berserker enchantment is the more serious one of the two. Also, we saw Neinhart change right before Irene in the guild from the enchantment so I wouldn't call that being off-paneled as it is pretty clear that is when he was enchanted.

You're using the same circular argument as the other users. How is Natsu's feat proof of Enchanted Neinhart having low durability, when that is the only reference these claims are based off of? You would have to find an alternative explanation for me to believe this.

No, it was off-paneled. Neinhart was barely even in the process of being enchanted since there was no aura.

Spoiler: BEFORE Neinhart's Enchantment

To further prove my point, when Eileen enchanted the berserkers, she said the name of it afterwards (took two pages).

Spoiler: Berserker Enchantment

So it is entirely possible for Eileen to say the name of her enchantment (for Neinhart) after the scenes switched.

---

Not bias at all, what is bias is you ignoring the fact that Gray had never felt MP like that before, he doesnt have spriggan level MP, doesnt mean he isnt a spriggan level combatant.

He clearly has Spriggan Level MP...

Spoiler: Magic Power flowing from Gray's Body

This isn't up for debate. The only other characters who were able to replicate this feat are Natsu, Jellal, and Mirajane. They are all by far Spriggan Level when it comes to MP.

A boost doesnt mean spriggan level.

If you were to take Gray's initial MP into account, then yes, it would.

Alright then your logic implies that with Fairy Heart Zeref has greater attack and defense than Acnologia.

No. You still don't seem to understand my point. Zeref would indeed be more powerful (greater attack and defense) with Fairy Heart. But he still isn't stronger than Acnologia because they are in two different leagues.

A big deal, but not the whole deal, as shown by Acno, a guy who doesnt have infinite MP still being to powerful.

I already said this before and I will say it one last time. Magic power only influences one's attack power and defense.

MP ≠ Attack Power or Defense

So just because Zeref has infinite MP, it doesn't mean Zeref is automatically more powerful than Acnologia. Besides, each wizard has a maximum capacity in their Ethernano container. So Zeref wouldn't be able to use all of it at once. And by that time, Acnologia would destroy him.

They prevent him from getting hit though by fighting in his place.

That still has nothing to do with defense... You are essentially saying that Gray's Ice Clones factor into his durability...

So it comes down to you not wanting Natsu stronger than Jellal, alright. Environment changing is situational as shown by Natsu not melting everything every time he fights, like the GMG stadium.

It's not what I want or don't want. It's whats shown.

You are assuming that Eileen thinks Erza is spriggan tier like Natsu, which i doubt she does cause spriggans rarely acknowledge the strength of their opponents.

Erza most definitely is Spriggan level. And Eileen knows that because she knows Erza.

Why would i need to exclude Natsu's feat? It is proof enough, you dont get to pick apart what happens in the manga.

I'm not. The reason why you can't base something off of one feat is because it can be inconsistent. In this case, it is. You're just denying it.

CQC experience implies Jacob is far more used to taking physical attacks than Neinhart who has people fight for him

Not really. Jacob is an assassin. He rarely gives his opponents a chance to retaliate. And just to add, fighting close quarters doesn't mean they are used to taking attacks. Acnologia (in his human form) kills his enemies with CQC without even being hit.

'Fraid not, Ikusatsunagi<Spriggans, Demolition Fist alone was enough to take him out, while Jacob needed both FDK mode and Demolition Fist together to beat him.

Okay, so are you willing to say Neinhart < Ikusa-Tsunagi? How about Dimaria < Ikusa-Tsunagi?

They are dependent, but not entirely so, as shown by the vast difference in physical abilities displayed by different spriggans.

Jacob's durability feats aren't that impressive either. So I don't see a vast difference here.

I said that MP wasnt the only thing that effects durability, not that it wasnt a factor at all.

We wouldn't be having this debate if you acknowledged this from the beginning. But at least you admit it now.

 

[Boomburst]

What I was saying is that I call Natsu's fight is inconsistent the same way you call Gray's fight inconsistent. We both agree on the word "inconsistent". We're just applying it to different characters.

Oh if that's the case then I guess we can go back to arguing about Gray too LOL

In my opinion, a Spriggan's magic that has no effect is a lot more impressive than tanking a casual attack from Base Natsu. Sure, this doesn't tell us anything about Neinhart's durability. But the reason it is impressive is because it shows us just how high Neinhart's magic power actually is.

Yes it is an impressive MP feat but that's irrelevant since what we are arguing about is whether MP directly influences durability or not. And even if it does, there's nothing to suggest that it means mages of the same MP would have the same durability.

It wasn't overkill like I said before. And the motivation is pretty much the same. Both were for the sake of the Fairy Tail guild.

Where's the proof that it wasn't overkill?

And I don't think you understand my point about motivation. Yes the broader motivation is the same but depending on the situation different feelings and emotions can cause a character to act in different ways.

Sting and Rogue were always poor in terms of CQC in my book. They are only decent in terms of magic.

In the context of the GMG they were reasonably impressive. And Natsu should have plenty of other CQC feats as well IIRC, I'm just not remembering what exactly they were right now. I'll hold off on arguing about this for now until I go back and look for them and if I can't find them I'll concede this point.

I don't think Makarov has a lot of magic power especially compared to a Spriggan which is why his stats are not up to the normal standards. So I still go by this idea.

Well yes perhaps that may have been a bit of an exaggeration but the general idea is that Makarov should be much more relevant than he is now if MP really does boost physical stats. He may have been surpassed by some of the main characters by now but when it comes to MP he's no pushover either.

 

[Seven777]

He clearly has Spriggan Level MP...

Spoiler: Magic Power flowing from Gray's Body

This isn't up for debate. The only other characters who were able to replicate this feat are Natsu, Jellal, and Mirajane. They are all by far Spriggan Level when it comes to MP.


If you were to take Gray's initial MP into account, then yes, it would.

No, he doesnt, this isnt up for debate, Gray clearly stated that he had never felt that much MP before, magic flowing off your body doesnt prove or even imply that his MP is spriggan level. We have concrete evidence that Gray doesnt have spirggan MP when he was faced with Brandish, your opinion on what 'MP flowing' means is not comparable to statements in the manga.

No. You still don't seem to understand my point. Zeref would indeed be more powerful (greater attack and defense) with Fairy Heart. But he still isn't stronger than Acnologia because they are in two different leagues.

I already said this before and I will say it one last time. Magic power only influences one's attack power and defense.

MP ≠ Attack Power or Defense

So just because Zeref has infinite MP, it doesn't mean Zeref is automatically more powerful than Acnologia. Besides, each wizard has a maximum capacity in their Ethernano container. So Zeref wouldn't be able to use all of it at once. And by that time, Acnologia would destroy him.

I see, then you understand my point about Neinhart and Jacob, even though Jacob may have less MP than Neinhart(this is debatable), his physicals still remain significantly greater.

That still has nothing to do with defense... You are essentially saying that Gray's Ice Clones factor into his durability...

Stopped Silver from hitting him... and they were immobile. Basically my point is this, Neinhart's durability is trash, but he makes up for it by not fighting directly himself.

It's not what I want or don't want. It's whats shown.

If thats the case then this discussion is over, Natsu was shown to one shot Neinhart.

Erza most definitely is Spriggan level. And Eileen knows that because she knows Erza.

She hasnt seen Erza since before she was enslaved, what she knows of Erza is questionable to say the least, Erza being spriggan tier is debatable, Erza having spriggan MP is out of the question.

I'm not. The reason why you can't base something off of one feat is because it can be inconsistent. In this case, it is. You're just denying it.

But it isnt inconsistent, because it falls in line with Neinharts previous durability feat of getting one shot, deny it all you want, but thats all Neinhart's durabilty has shown, and until he tanks a decent attack, that is how Neinhart's durabilty remains.

Not really. Jacob is an assassin. He rarely gives his opponents a chance to retaliate. And just to add, fighting close quarters doesn't mean they are used to taking attacks. Acnologia (in his human form) kills his enemies with CQC without even being hit.

He was noted by Lucy to be an excellent CQC fighter, so yeah, he has extensive CQC experience. Acnologia is durable, do i really have to say that?

Okay, so are you willing to say Neinhart < Ikusa-Tsunagi? How about Dimaria < Ikusa-Tsunagi?

Hrm... hard to say since we dont know how powerful END or Third Origin Chelia is, i'd say.... no, Dimaria is still more durable than Ikusatsunagi, maybe when she is in her human form rather than God Soul she might have less durability than him, but in God Soul she is superior

Jacob's durability feats aren't that impressive either. So I don't see a vast difference here.

Yeah, nothing special, but Neinharts are so bad that he lowers the bar on spriggans.

We wouldn't be having this debate if you acknowledged this from the beginning. But at least you admit it now.

It was always my point, you simply misunderstood me.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Oh if that's the case then I guess we can go back to arguing about Gray too LOL

Haha. I guess.

Yes it is an impressive MP feat but that's irrelevant since what we are arguing about is whether MP directly influences durability or not. And even if it does, there's nothing to suggest that it means mages of the same MP would have the same durability.

Magic power, in theory, should affect a character's durability. That is why someone like Dimaria or Brandish has high durability even though their physical appearance doesn't show it. Similarly, Elfman who is probably one of the more muscular characters of the series is in fact the opposite. One lacks in magic power and the others excel in it. I mean you can call this correlation which doesn't prove anything but I think this is the best example we have right now.

Where's the proof that it wasn't overkill?

Well, Jacob survived with minimal injuries. Had he survived but was in critical condition, then I would agree.

And I don't think you understand my point about motivation. Yes the broader motivation is the same but depending on the situation different feelings and emotions can cause a character to act in different ways.

Fair enough. But I still think that there is a clear difference in power even though the motivation is relatively similar.

In the context of the GMG they were reasonably impressive. And Natsu should have plenty of other CQC feats as well IIRC, I'm just not remembering what exactly they were right now. I'll hold off on arguing about this for now until I go back and look for them and if I can't find them I'll concede this point.

No problem.

Well yes perhaps that may have been a bit of an exaggeration but the general idea is that Makarov should be much more relevant than he is now if MP really does boost physical stats. He may have been surpassed by some of the main characters by now but when it comes to MP he's no pushover either.

True. He is no pushover. However, his magic power is still inferior to many characters. I fully agree with you on this.

---

No, he doesnt, this isnt up for debate, Gray clearly stated that he had never felt that much MP before, magic flowing off your body doesnt prove or even imply that his MP is spriggan level. We have concrete evidence that Gray doesnt have spirggan MP when he was faced with Brandish, your opinion on what 'MP flowing' means is not comparable to statements in the manga.

Then does Natsu have Spriggan level MP?

Just because Gray has never felt that much magic power before, it doesn't mean he isn't on their level. His statement simply means that they are going up against the strongest opponents they've ever faced. Not that he isn't a match for them.

I see, then you understand my point about Neinhart and Jacob, even though Jacob may have less MP than Neinhart(this is debatable), his physicals still remain significantly greater.

Okay, Jacob's physical are greater. But his MP is vastly inferior to Enchanted Neinhart. So I don't see why they wouldn't be considered comparable in terms of overall power.

Stopped Silver from hitting him... and they were immobile. Basically my point is this, Neinhart's durability is trash, but he makes up for it by not fighting directly himself.

I agree that he has low durability (Base Form). And I agree that his magic allows others to fight for him.

But I still disagree with saying Enchanted Neinhart's durability is trash. If Jacob's durability is considered trash to you, then I would agree here.

If thats the case then this discussion is over, Natsu was shown to one shot Neinhart.

Natsu was also shown to use FDKM + FDK spell on Jacob who survived with minimal injuries and is comparable to Enhanced Neinhart. That is where the inconsistency lies.

She hasnt seen Erza since before she was enslaved, what she knows of Erza is questionable to say the least, Erza being spriggan tier is debatable, Erza having spriggan MP is out of the question.

Erza is Spriggan tier and her MP is definitely Spriggan level. I don't see why we would deny her of this especially when she gave a Spriggan (who is stronger than Neinhart and Jacob) an extreme difficulty fight.

But it isnt inconsistent, because it falls in line with Neinharts previous durability feat of getting one shot, deny it all you want, but thats all Neinhart's durabilty has shown, and until he tanks a decent attack, that is how Neinhart's durabilty remains.

Again, the previous durability feat from Neinhart was legitimate in that Jellal (a high-tier mage) used a medium-tier spell and was going all out. Natsu is different. At best, he is on Jellal's level but he was in Base Form and used a Casual Spell.

He was noted by Lucy to be an excellent CQC fighter, so yeah, he has extensive CQC experience. Acnologia is durable, do i really have to say that?

Lucy is probably one of the worst CQC fighters in the series. Almost every single time she gets into a physical fight, she ends up being forced against her will.

Acnologia may be durable. But Jacob catches his opponents by surprise with the use of his magic; hence, why he never gets hit.

Hrm... hard to say since we dont know how powerful END or Third Origin Chelia is, i'd say.... no, Dimaria is still more durable than Ikusatsunagi.

What about Neinhart?

Yeah, nothing special, but Neinharts are so bad that he lowers the bar on spriggans.

Base Neinhart is bad. Enchanted Neinhart is on Jacob's level. Whether you think that is good or bad is up to you. Personally, I think both are bad.

It was always my point, you simply misunderstood me.

Okay, if you say so.

 

[Seven777]

Then does Natsu have Spriggan level MP?

Nope and neither does Erza, he fought beside both of them in Avatar, and still he acknowledged that he had never felt that much MP before.

Just because Gray has never felt that much magic power before, it doesn't mean he isn't on their level. His statement simply means that they are going up against the strongest opponents they've ever faced. Not that he isn't a match for them.

Yeah it does, in fact Gray's MP is likely even lower than Makarov's, since Makarov was still who he was comparing her to, rather than himself. MP doesnt decide fighting capability, you can have lower MP than your opponent and still be the superior warrior as shown by Natsu and Gray.

Okay, Jacob's physical are greater. But his MP is vastly inferior to Enchanted Neinhart. So I don't see why they wouldn't be considered comparable in terms of overall power.

Because im not talking about overall power, overall power would be including Neinhart's historias, in this scenario he is fighting without them and is thus significantly weaker.
Jacob's MP being vastly inferior to Neinhart's is speculation, we dont know what Eileen's enchantment did, could have just granted him a new ability, or increased attack power.

I agree that he has low durability (Base Form). And I agree that his magic allows others to fight for him.

But I still disagree with saying Enchanted Neinhart's durability is trash. If Jacob's durability is considered trash to you, then I would agree here.

Enchanted Neinhart having increased durability is speculation, and even if it is increased, we dont know by how much, could simply be an extra 10%.

Natsu was also shown to use FDKM + FDK spell on Jacob who survived with minimal injuries and is comparable to Enhanced Neinhart. That is where the inconsistency lies.

And if Jacob's durability was canonized as equal to enchanted Neinhart's i would agree that it was an inconsistency, but unless that is explicitly stated some time in the future, then there is no choice but to determine Neinhart's durability as inferior, meaning that there is no such inconsistency, the manga always gets the benefit of the doubt over fan speculation, always.

Erza is Spriggan tier and her MP is definitely Spriggan level. I don't see why we would deny her of this especially when she gave a Spriggan (who is stronger than Neinhart and Jacob) an extreme difficulty fight.

MP definitely isnt spriggan tier, Gray's comment about Brandish confirms that, she likely doesnt even have more MP than Makarov. She may or may not be a spriggan tier fighter, i am undecided on that so far.

Again, the previous durability feat from Neinhart was legitimate in that Jellal (a high-tier mage) used a medium-tier spell and was going all out. Natsu is different. At best, he is on Jellal's level but he was in Base Form and used a Casual Spell.

Using a medium tier spell isnt going all out, it is going medium out. Natsu using less effort simply means that Natsu is stronger, there doesnt have to be an inconsistency here.

Lucy is probably one of the worst CQC fighters in the series. Almost every single time she gets into a physical fight, she ends up being forced against her will.

So? Doesnt mean she cant tell if someone is good, Jacob was also outclassing Natsu with ease.

Acnologia may be durable. But Jacob catches his opponents by surprise with the use of his magic; hence, why he never gets hit.

Tanked a punch to the gut by Natsu with ease, as well as a combined Lucy kick and FD Claw.

What about Neinhart?

Weaker, possibly even weaker than Dimaria in base form

Base Neinhart is bad. Enchanted Neinhart is on Jacob's level. Whether you think that is good or bad is up to you. Personally, I think both are bad.

Speculation, we dont know what the Enchantment did.

 

[EdwardRictofin]

Natsu should be able to beat Jacob in Base Form. But not with the difficulty we saw (meaning a one-shot or two-shot). What makes the feat even less believable is the fact that he used a casual spell to defeat him. Had Natsu used an FDK spell in Base Form, I would be less critical of this.

I don't understand your two points. Your first one literally contradicts the previous sentence. And your second one isn't even relevant considering there is no evidence to prove it.

Saying Neinhart's durability was not increased is absolute denial of what actually happened. Even though we don't have proof that Eileen's magic enhanced Neinhart's durability (which could be true), we know for a fact that Neinhart's magic power had increased. And as I previously explained, an extreme boost in magic power would increase a character's durability. Size doesn't judge one's durability in Fairy Tail. It's magic power.



You're using the same circular argument as the other users. How is Natsu's feat proof of Enchanted Neinhart having low durability, when that is the only reference these claims are based off of? You would have to find an alternative explanation for me to believe this.

No, it was off-paneled. Neinhart was barely even in the process of being enchanted since there was no aura.

Spoiler: BEFORE Neinhart's Enchantment

To further prove my point, when Eileen enchanted the berserkers, she said the name of it afterwards (took two pages).

Spoiler: Berserker Enchantment

So it is entirely possible for Eileen to say the name of her enchantment (for Neinhart) after the scenes switched.

---

He clearly has Spriggan Level MP...

Spoiler: Magic Power flowing from Gray's Body

This isn't up for debate. The only other characters who were able to replicate this feat are Natsu, Jellal, and Mirajane. They are all by far Spriggan Level when it comes to MP.



If you were to take Gray's initial MP into account, then yes, it would.



No. You still don't seem to understand my point. Zeref would indeed be more powerful (greater attack and defense) with Fairy Heart. But he still isn't stronger than Acnologia because they are in two different leagues.



I already said this before and I will say it one last time. Magic power only influences one's attack power and defense.

MP ≠ Attack Power or Defense

So just because Zeref has infinite MP, it doesn't mean Zeref is automatically more powerful than Acnologia. Besides, each wizard has a maximum capacity in their Ethernano container. So Zeref wouldn't be able to use all of it at once. And by that time, Acnologia would destroy him.



That still has nothing to do with defense... You are essentially saying that Gray's Ice Clones factor into his durability...



It's not what I want or don't want. It's whats shown.



Erza most definitely is Spriggan level. And Eileen knows that because she knows Erza.



I'm not. The reason why you can't base something off of one feat is because it can be inconsistent. In this case, it is. You're just denying it.



Not really. Jacob is an assassin. He rarely gives his opponents a chance to retaliate. And just to add, fighting close quarters doesn't mean they are used to taking attacks. Acnologia (in his human form) kills his enemies with CQC without even being hit.



Okay, so are you willing to say Neinhart < Ikusa-Tsunagi? How about Dimaria < Ikusa-Tsunagi?



Jacob's durability feats aren't that impressive either. So I don't see a vast difference here.



We wouldn't be having this debate if you acknowledged this from the beginning. But at least you admit it now.

Ok just because a character has steam or whatever it is coming off their body doesn't make them a spriggan tier. When August got serious there wasn't any smoke coming off of him. It was the nature of Grays magic being ice, ice has that slow moving steam if you know what I mean. Debunked.

Let me turn the question around, how can Gray be a spriggan level when he was scared of the presence of Brandish. If someone is equal in power they aren't going to be shocked at their power. Debunked.

Jacob has amazing durability feats. He took Natsus punches like they were nothing and switched the tables and gave him the work. Natsu knew he was strong which is why he resulted in going all out with Blaze dragon king mode, demolition fist. If Natsu didn't think he was strong he would've finished him off with a normal attack. Debunked.

Neinharts durability was low from the start. He went from a scrapper to a stable boy.