I had that Psychologist idea years ago though, called it Screwdriver or Mindscrewdriver or something like that. But I was told that role is too confusing for a game where sanity suddenly swaps so it was killed no matter how hard I fought for it. :C
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@Purity of Magi The Mafia Devil works if we change the way Townie Jesus works as in that both roles die as townie but return with no title below when revived so the townies have to guess or check on "Jesus" to see if he is townie or mafia.
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@Lady pompom
After seeing how the Martyr in solo action can literally the entire purpose of the Shapeshifter I decided to change the Illusion description a little:
Alright, that should keep the Illusion save from the "spam mark" of the Martyr. Man, leave it to the Veterans to find out such a stupid and obvious mistake in a 2nd role. >.<
But really, thanks a lot guys. I would have never thought of that and I created the Martyr role. XDDD
I am not saying that the 2nd role had to be changed now but it would make the game better as it would show the power the Shapeshifter has. Plus we have so many night actions that it will be a wonder if most of his Illusions will make it to the end game, so no reason to have day actions be destructive as well. Also we already changed the Shuffler so why not change the Illusion as well, it is only a 2nd role after all, unlike the Shuffler.
I had that Psychologist idea years ago though, called it Screwdriver or Mindscrewdriver or something like that. But I was told that role is too confusing for a game where sanity suddenly swaps so it was killed no matter how hard I fought for it. :C
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@Purity of Magi The Mafia Devil works if we change the way Townie Jesus works as in that both roles die as townie but return with no title below when revived so the townies have to guess or check on "Jesus" to see if he is townie or mafia.
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@Lady pompom
After seeing how the Martyr in solo action can literally the entire purpose of the Shapeshifter I decided to change the Illusion description a little:
Alright, that should keep the Illusion save from the "spam mark" of the Martyr. Man, leave it to the Veterans to find out such a stupid and obvious mistake in a 2nd role. >.<
But really, thanks a lot guys. I would have never thought of that and I created the Martyr role. XDDD
I am not saying that the 2nd role had to be changed now but it would make the game better as it would show the power the Shapeshifter has. Plus we have so many night actions that it will be a wonder if most of his Illusions will make it to the end game, so no reason to have day actions be destructive as well. Also we already changed the Shuffler so why not change the Illusion as well, it is only a 2nd role after all, unlike the Shuffler.
I'm not so sure about this James, this is literally the best perfect use of the Martyr imo. You need to consider the Martyr wont be in every game with a Shapeshifter, why not keep the effect? Kind of like how the Doctor and Poisoner counter each other, not every game with a Doctor has a Poisoner. I say its best to just leave the Illusion role as it is imo. Because think about it, how else can the Martyr shine unless by dying for other people? This gives the role far more relevance So much can happen to the Martyr in game, what happened in this game was just one of many possibilities. The Martyr could always die, get recruited before he even counters the Shapeshifter.
Having it shattered by night roles feels kind of limiting honestly.
Maybe but then hosts really need to mind Martyr and Shapeshifter as in not putting them into the same game when it is KNOWN that there is a Shapeshafter. The fun should be that people only find out like day 3 or 4 that there is a Shapeshifter among them and that a number of them might be dead already without knowing, like it happened to Empty. Man, that was so wonderful, Empty was writing and acting all natural and then bam, dead. I just wished the martyr wasn't so OP to the Shapeshifter though now being Martyr is now more awesome as now you are the perfect counter role to the Shapeshifter. Also means the Shapeshifter will try to kill the Martyr and hope somebody uses and action on him soonish to get rid of him. It shows the weakness of the Shapeshifter that while he is able to protect himself by hiding, he is unable to kill who he wants dead. I like this dilemma the Shapeshifter has.^^
This game was really unlucky as the Martyr knew from day 1 that there was a Shapeshifter in-game and the vets found out about the Shapeshifter's weakness in day 2 by using a "spam-mark" of the Martyr as Illusion detector. It doesn't show my Shapeshifter in such a cool light like I hoped it would do. :c
Yep, I get where you're coming from. Tbh that was also something I was looking forward to It was Gry's strategy which gave the Martyr the idea to use their action on the Shapeshifter, so even then you need to account that isn't something that's always going to happen. What happened today is just one of many many possibilities imo where the Martyr and Shapeshifter would be involved. Though I agree that caution needs to be taken forward in future where a Shapeshifter and Martyr are involved, but I stil have to agree with how much more awesome the Martyr has become
I had that Psychologist idea years ago though, called it Screwdriver or Mindscrewdriver or something like that. But I was told that role is too confusing for a game where sanity suddenly swaps so it was killed no matter how hard I fought for it. :C
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@Purity of Magi The Mafia Devil works if we change the way Townie Jesus works as in that both roles die as townie but return with no title below when revived so the townies have to guess or check on "Jesus" to see if he is townie or mafia.
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@Lady pompom
After seeing how the Martyr in solo action can literally the entire purpose of the Shapeshifter I decided to change the Illusion description a little:
Alright, that should keep the Illusion save from the "spam mark" of the Martyr. Man, leave it to the Veterans to find out such a stupid and obvious mistake in a 2nd role. >.<
But really, thanks a lot guys. I would have never thought of that and I created the Martyr role. XDDD
I am not saying that the 2nd role had to be changed now but it would make the game better as it would show the power the Shapeshifter has. Plus we have so many night actions that it will be a wonder if most of his Illusions will make it to the end game, so no reason to have day actions be destructive as well. Also we already changed the Shuffler so why not change the Illusion as well, it is only a 2nd role after all, unlike the Shuffler.
We told about shapeshifter this time because of the testing, but if it becomes official, certainly it will be cool having many illusions walking around town fr days until players find out
I agree it's kinda Op for Martyr to counter shapeshifter like this, but limiting the number of marks would be the same as limiting any night role user the number of times they can change their targets. So, hosts would be taking into consideration this when it involves the balance of shapeshifter ingame or changing it to the case where illusions can only shatter if lynched/voted or if they are targets of any night action.
It would be better to keep it as it is for now and discuss more possibilities about the changes after the results of this game (so we can choose better measures and adaptions to the illusion too).
Now that the game ended should we discuss changes on the Shapeshifter, Shuffler and maybe Martyr in regards to the Shapeshifter? I think Shapeshifter's Illusions shouldn't be so easily popped with a Martyr so giving a Martyr a limited amount of changes like 3 or 5 would be good enough as he still could change his target (like start of the day marks one player, later changes it due vote amount and before the end of the day changes it again for whatever reason or use all 3 quickly after another to find an Illusion). I also think that the Shuffler should become a reward&punishment role for both Townies and Mafia. Basically if Mafia kills Shuffler 3 Townies get confirmed due shuffling their roles which is fair as 3 is a good amount o start building a townie stronghold but at the same time the three gotta talk in case of having active roles with results. If Townies however lynch the Shuffler then the Host should add the secondary role Traitor to a random townie. That way townies would know that one of them became a traitor but not quite who and the mafia knows they might be able to recruit somebody with a killing. That way the Shuffler becomes a reward and risk role for both townie and mafia. Shapeshifter should stay the way it is, in a game where people do not know that a Shapeshifter is in from the start and the SS gets lucky with his first couple night hiding kills to create a small group of illusions himself then that game will be played very differently than the last test game (Orange best Mafia!!!).
Hey guys, as you've known me and Spriggan have tested some roles in our last mafia game we thought it would be better if we asked which roles people would like and discuss changes or possibly adaptions, following Vandred's suggestion, we've create dthat poll in the page. I've just picked some of the suggested roles, but please suggest others if you do have them in mind.
Hey guys, as you've known me and Spriggan have tested some roles in our last mafia game we thought it would be better if we asked which roles people would like and discuss changes or possibly adaptions, following Vandred's suggestion, we've create dthat poll in the page. I've just picked some of the suggested roles, but please suggest others if you do have them in mind.
While the poll is fine, that doesn't approve the roles. Vand already started discussions about roles yesterday, so once we go over those we'll write it here which ones were approved. Hosts can then test the approved roles they want to test, or make a poll asking others which ones to test first.
While the poll is fine, but that doesn't approve the roles. Vand already started discussions about roles yesterday, so once we go over those we'll write it here which ones were approved. Hosts can then test the approved roles they want to test, or make a poll asking others which ones to test first.
I noticed that more and more night deaths are happening to the Mafia and I think it would be fair that with the increased risk of getting killed at night the mafia should have some mean of defense. I introduce The Mafia Doctor in 3 Versions:
A strong Doctor version which basically grants the Mafia gang the decision to either 100% protect one of their own for the night phase or try to get a 2nd kill besides their regular kill action. Could make small Mafia gangs more powerful and unpredictable. And depending on the roll the Mafia Doc might end up even saving a townie from another mafia kill instead of saving it.
Basically a Mafia Doctor who is only good at protecting his own people at night and maybe fooling a spy.
A weaker Mafia Doctor version who can only protect his own people and even that only with a 50% chance of success though at least he won't kill his guys if he fails unlike an Insane Doc. We could either add the Insane Doc action from the Strong Mafia Doctor up above when he uses his actions on townies making him an extra killer with 50% chance of a kill but also making him possible protecting townies from harm or add the Naive Doc Action from the second Mafia Doctor suggestion when targeting townies. Or we just leave them out and make him unable to target any townies anyway.
Also I got an Idea for another Townie Hiding role with night kill potential:
Giving the Townies an active Night killing role is interesting as said Townie role might end up being responsible for killing some townies but so are Cowboy, Prosecutor and PGO. And with PGO we already got a night killing townie albeit a passive one.
Another version is that the Ninja just steals the vote of his target and can use it as an Anon vote, the target from which said vote was stolen will not be punished.
I also thought that a Mafia Hider would be interesting to try, seeing as Hider was till Shapeshifter, the only role able to hide:
This is just a straight up "evil" version of the Hider from the Townies. There could be variations like the Stalker finding out Information about his target, similar to a BK like 33% he gets told who his target targeted 33% he gets told to which group his target's role belong (Investigating, protecting, blocking, etc) or 33% he gets noticed and his target receives a warning that a Mafia Stalker had hide behind him last night. So a bit worse than BK who redirects instead of failing.
Also I got another Idea for a 3rd role called Necromancer:
The idea is to make the Necromancer chose each night, does he want to increase his zombie army each night or does he want to use a zombie order to get rid of troublesome players, protect himself or throw in some chaos in the voting. Ofc a risen corpse can no longer be investigated by Investigator or Mortician, that much is obvious. And unlike a Shapeshifter who protects himself every night by hiding and recruits new Illusions by killing his targets, though the Illusions are very fragile, the Necromancer can chose to rapidly increase his zombie army but risk that he gets blocked, killed, redirected, etc; he cannot kill on his own but he gets lots of potential corpses with each day and night passing, only question is what corpse he raises. If we add the condition that a corpse must belong to the same group as the intended Zombie Type we make it harder for Necromancer to get some special zombies.
So the Necromancer is not an OP role despite having access to many skills as it depends on the corpses roles what he can make outta it plus if he wants to use a Zombie his horde loses a Zombie and he cannot raise another at the same time, so it is a very tactical role that needs planning ahead and guessing what might happen each night phase.
I think it is a pretty good and fun role and I am sure many people who get the Necromancer will like it and the increasing Zombie Horde that comes along with it. Zombies ofc are not counted as players or anything like the Illusions from the Shapeshifter, they just get added to the Necromancer's Zombie collection.
@James Rye I like the general idea of the Necromancer, the part about having different powers depending on which roles died. But it’s a bit far too needlessly complex, and there’s a lot of questions about his priority, win conditions and other things. Sacrificing a zombie also sounds like a bad idea almost always, since increasing your number is the best way to win.
But I would be a lot more fond of the role if it was a Townie/Mafia role. And keeping it more simple. Something like targeting 1 dead player every night and you can use his role that night, but can't target the same person twice. Restricting it to town roles for a town Necromancer, and to mafia roles for the mafia version.
Something like that. What do you think?
@GrySun In that case I would call the Townie Version "Townie Summoner" who calls forth protective or buffing spirits based on the deads roles whereas the Mafia Version would be called "Mafia Necromancer" who raises the dead for destructive or disruptive use. I need some time to think their mechanics up though to make sure neither one is OP. Like maybe a one-time use or conditions set on using said spirits/zombies in the game.
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Alright here are my ideas for Townie Summoner and Mafia Necromancer:
In case this is too powerful:
I made it Day action so that there is a big difference between Summoner and Necromancer (who is night action) plus this way Mafia has no way of blocking Summoner action expect day-killing him.
So the biggest difference between Summoner and Necromancer, besides being day and night action, is that the Summoner uses his spirit right away at day whereas the Necromancer has to wait a night before using his zombie. Ofc that gives the advantage that he could start a collection and use his zombies action later on, but since his power is based on the faction he will rarely get a 3rd role zombie and even if he gets a mafia zombie he only has a 50% chance of killing somebody. It is why I think the 2nd version of Summoner is better as each Spirit can be used only once which makes their use far more valuable and might want the Summoner to wait like till a det is killed at night preferably already knowing his sanity or if it is clear that somebody is probably a mafia who voted for a lynching of a poor townie to curse said mafia to lose his vote and get a vote on already.
I think the 2nd Version of Townie Summoner and the Mafia Necromancer based on faction bodies are pretty good as each has its great advantages (day action/can be summoned aka used immediately/wide variety of actions however each can be used only once/direct way to hurt Mafia if they use day kills via assassin/poisoner/bomb with confusing one of their members vs night action/cannot use zombie at the same time as risen but can start collection for wider usage/can either be a constant blocker or get revenge for fallen mafia buddy albeit only at 50%/is only way of Mafia to put the Not Voter Disease out there which has a 100% chance fo success to how rare 3rd roles are). I believe neither is overpowered and got their advantages and disadvantages.
I don't particularly mind the Mafia Doctor, even though I feel like it would be simpler to keep it as a normal Sane Doc on the mafia side instead of giving it a chance of failure or extra kills. I can only see it being a worthwhile addition in a game with multiple scum teams, though, since otherwise it would simply become a direct counter to the town's Bomb and PGO (protect the designated killer every night, and he'll be immune to those threats).
However, I'm not sure if there's really a necessity to protect mafias from nightkills, since more scum teams also equals more kills at night, and the possibility of the scum killing each other off is supposed to be a balancing point to the increased number of potential townie victims at night. What's more, townie Docs and roleblockers can end up protecting the mafia players too, and I would argue that that's supposed to be the strategy to exploit by the mafia if they seek protection, instead of the hosts providing them with their own.
The problem I see with the Ninja is that he has to choose between a "safe" hiding behind a supposed (or confirmed) townie with the risk of killing a teammate, or a "risky" hiding behind a mafia with the intent to kill them, but putting himself in danger of dying if he gets targeted directly. Seems like it has a lot of things that could go wrong in some way, especially considering how it could be used from early to late game. What would a Ninja who wants to escape the mafia's kills but doesn't want to kill a teammate do? Should its primary usage be to keep targeting those you think are mafia and hope you're not wrong (and they never target you, and you have luck with the coin flips)?
The version that steals a vote feels like a superfluous addition. Doesn't seem a very exciting upgrade from good old Hider.
The first version of Mafia Stalker you suggested feels like a weaker version of Mafia Doc since he can only protect himself from night kills, while the second one has townie Det and Spy elements on top of self-protection. Even with the chance of failure, it feels like it's a bit too much for a single mafia role...
I do like the idea of townie and mafia Necromancers, instead, especially the mafia one. But the options they can choose from seem to lack focus, maybe? For the Summoner, stealing a vote sounds weak and redirecting a mafia sounds as OP as rare to unlock if the player has to be daykilled, so it sounds like the saving will be the option that gets chosen almost every time.
As for the Mafia Necromancer, preventing a player from voting is once again a weak power, that blocking chance is weaker than a regular Escort's, and I'm still not fond of the mafia getting a chance for a second night kill with essentially no drawbacks or risks. The delay between raising the dead player and employing the zombie also carries the potential disappointment of building your nice army of zombies and getting killed before you get to do anything with them, so at the moment, I like Gry's suggestion of an immediate, straightforward action the most. It would need quite a bit of tweaking and exceptions to be made for certain roles, but I think it has potential.
Hm about Necromancer/Summoner, I think the part of raising a zombie first before being able to use it is very weak. You reused the part I didn't like about the initial TP Necromancer. A game usually doesn't have too many night phases to use a role too much, so needing two nights for a basic action many roles can do every night is too much I think, even with him having more varying power-applications. Preventing him from using the same person twice is a good enough limiter.
It could also be better if the power strictly depended on the role, not the way someone died. Something like the townie Necromancer/Summoner being able to use the Spy power once of their Day 1 lynched Spy, allowing him to still make use of a lost role even if only for one night. Or the Mafia necromancer allowing them to kill via Janitor power one more time after their Janitor already died. Sounds like a more fun and meaningful way of having the role, though not sure how powerful it really is, and how/whether it should work for dayroles/passive roles. But I like the possibilities of this one.
As for the other roles, we talked about it in a different thread but here's my short thoughts on them:
Mafia Doctor - I like it, though I would rather it working exactly the same as townie Doc, just on Mafia side. It's not a particularly strong role to give to mafia, but I still see some good uses of it like ensuring some big role like Janitor/Assassin isn't nightkilled by another mafia, an insane doc or a third party SK/Mentor. I can see myself using this role for when I want to give mafia a weakish role without resorting to vanilla mafia or some other weaker role.
However, I'm not sure if there's really a necessity to protect mafias from nightkills, since more scum teams also equals more kills at night, and the possibility of the scum killing each other off is supposed to be a balancing point to the increased number of potential townie victims at night. What's more, townie Docs and roleblockers can end up protecting the mafia players too, and I would argue that that's supposed to be the strategy to exploit by the mafia if they seek protection, instead of the hosts providing them with their own.
I think the Mafia Doc application in practice will be less about trying to predict which one of your teammates dies to save him, and more about just repeatedly using it on the strongest role to ensure the mafia doesn't randomly lose their strongest defining role at night. I think it may help prevent a game being memed from the start. Or a mafia Lover asking for night protection would make Lovers work much better as well. I see it more as a stability element for the game to prevent a mafia from being extremely unlucky.
Ninja - It seems very similar to Insane Doc, except that the Ninja knows for sure he has that 50% chance kill. As Vand says, the Hiding makes sense with the Ninja theme but doesn't work well paired with his 50% chance kill. 50% can be very huge if lucky/unlucky, so I doubt anyone would ever use the Ninja role to legit try and hide behind a confirmed townie for the chance at hiding protection. It working in reverse, like being hidden only if hiding behind a mafia/his killer's mafia sounds better. Though I'm not sure how the priority targeting for this one should work. Kills are Prio 3, hiding is Prio 2.
I like the aspect of giving town a killing role which doesn't immediately confirm them as townies upon using it(like all daykill roles), but this would need some more thinking about.
Stalker - I don't like this one. The Doctor is a better way of giving mafia some protective ability than a hider. The second version sounds better but I can't see myself using this one in a game instead of a Mafia Det.
So I know there a traitor in the townie side and one in the mason side but there isn't anyone in the mafia side soooo.
Traitor2ndary Role Possibly 1: Basically just like the traitor in the townie side, this one can only win with the townie and he start in the mafia side.
Possibly 2:
Or we can make it so he needs to be the only survivor in this, so basically kill off townie and mafia.
I want this role to create some dought in the mafia side as they the only team where they can play without any worrying of being betrayed unlike townie and mason.
Shouldn't someone point out that those roles are becoming less like 'roles' and more like 'wow classes'? Do we get skill points with them? If someone claims any of those roles, the flood gates open tbh. Roles can't ever (that many) 'options', it's just too much? We don't need variations on the same role, either? If there are three doctors, sure, one might be bullshitting the rest, but if a hider shows up and ninja next to him... I mean, again, every new role should be filling a new kind of niche and not be a mini-game on it's own. That's very much not the idea since that role will be too volatile in terms of balance. I swear when I saw that zombie role I thought he's gonna use some forbidden jutsu on townies and make them shitpost in town.
Also, mafia can't ever have true protection roles. Their implied night protection comes from them being the killing party, as soon as a mafia can start protecting another one consistently, the paradigm of the game will move to power creep won't it?
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I might be imagining this but wasn't there a (suggested) role that made mason a secondary role (like super mason or something)?
Speaking of a niche for roles to fill. I feel there should be better roles for the third party. A serial killer being basically a lone mafia member without a team..... I think a lone janitor or a lone assassin would work better than that ..... Especially an assassin. More effective for a third party to have daykills/day actions. Both townies and mafia have day roles. Third parties don't.
So suggest:
^Not adding anything new to this role as if it becomes too OP then it will never get approved.
Idk, someone smarter than me might take this and make it better.....
I would rather see some simpler roles, most of these ones look way too "game-changing".
This translates in high difficulty to give them its proper use when hosting.
Speaking of a niche for roles to fill. I feel there should be better roles for the third party. A serial killer being basically a lone mafia member without a team..... I think a lone janitor or a lone assassin would work better than that ..... Especially an assassin. More effective for a third party to have daykills/day actions. Both townies and mafia have day roles. Third parties don't.
So suggest:
^Not adding anything new to this role as if it becomes too OP then it will never get approved.
Idk, someone smarter than me might take this and make it better.....
Yep the SK killing at day only would be lit, but it could also make him quite op since there's no real conexion between him and other players (where townies catch the mafias).
Also making him an Assassin would make him untraceable, only a det would be able to catch him with its role... and that SK could just kill the det before he brings any results first thing in the day.
But I like the idea, sounds cool for a high-scale game in which the regular SK is just doomed to lose, it would also bring caution for the common "role talk" we usually have on early days.
It was Gry's strategy which gave the Martyr the idea to use their action on the Shapeshifter, so even then you need to account that isn't something that's always going to happen. What happened today is just one of many many possibilities imo where the Martyr and Shapeshifter would be involved. Though I agree that caution needs to be taken forward in future where a Shapeshifter and Martyr are involved, but I stil have to agree with how much more awesome the Martyr has become 
