Discussion Ability Affinity with Armament Haki & Awakening

Hannibal Psyche

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Armament Haki

Armament Haki is a suit armour equipped for 2 purposes; to force the body of a Logia into solidity, and to amplify destructive power & defensive durability through the Hardening of specifically solid-structured objects (meaning nothing fluid, gaseous or ethereal). This attribute of "Hardening" makes Armament Haki impossible to complement Devil fruit attacks that lack a solid-structure:
  • Light based attacks :- Hardened Light? Light can't be hard.
  • Fire based attacks :- Fire can't be hard, it's a gas.
  • Smoke based attacks : - Smoke can't be hard, it's a gas.
  • Mero Mero based attacks :- Mero Mero attacks are not solid.
Simply put, it only complements solid-structure beings, or objects; attacks based on magic or ethereal have no Armament utility.

Not only does Armament Haki not compliment some attacks, it also overrides any ability that turns the user's body into something that's not absolutely solid or possessing a solid form; Sabo's fist is covered in flames, he proceeds to cover his fist in Armament Haki, it returns to human form and then takes on the Armament Haki coating.

Bare in mind that someone like Jozu or Luffy in their forms are still solid, so Armament Haki will work as usual without complications.

How Armament Haki affects Logias

Armament haki can only harden things that are of solid-structure, Logia in general are not solid-structure (not to state that some Logia do not possess solid forms too), therefore when they use haki, they regress to a solid form as can be noticed.
To simply put it, Logia (who are limited to non-tangible forms) can use Armament haki, but not mix it with gaseous or liquid forms which is why the fist is not a smokey Armament Haki claded fist in Smoker's case, but a solid fist with Armament Haki.

Occasions a Logias uses Armament Haki

A Logia will only use strictly employ Armament Haki if :- Their ability is not strong enough to deal damage, so a weapon or fist claded in Armament Haki becomes more ideal.
Akainu never used Armament Haki against Whitebeard, why? His ability was still capable of burning Whitebeard, so there isn't a need for him to switch to Armament Haki over his Magma powers.

Hierarchy: Logia fruit relationship

The different relationships are...
  • Superiority relationship :- This is the instance where 2 Logia DF share similar properties, but one is superior; Magma can quench fire and render fire's ability to burn redundant (being that magma's a semi-liquid), this results in the fire user getting burnt and ultimately losing.
    Only the inferior Logia DF type (Fire) must switch to haki in such a situation to stand a chance.
    Akainu: Did you get careless because you're a Logia type as well? You are merely Fire! I am Magma that consumes Fire!
  • Antagonistic relationship :- Ice nullifies Magma & Magma nullifies Ice; Aokiji and Akainu share such a relationship so it's a battle of attrition. They can both hurt the other without using haki and with their abilities to produce their elements, it's no surprise this battle lasted 10 days.
    No haki would be required.
  • Symbiotic relationship :- This is a relationship between 2 Logia DFs that can't really hurt each other and in a sense are harmonious in the presence of each other; neither can hurt the other.
    Such a fight would require haki or the fight would remain a stalemate indefinitely.
Conclusion

Hierarchy determines how Logia will fight the other; with Armament Haki or without need to rely on Armament Haki. Even in the event that 2 Devil fruits have a symbiotic relationship, or one of superiority, relationship between abilities doesn't determine the superior opponent, it simply determines the limitations as to how one will fight.



Introduction

Awakening is a huge topic of interest and it has become one of mine too. Initially, I assumed it could end up with a lot of discrepancies if it were a deus-ex machina as there are so many devil fruit abilities which I again assumed were not Awakened, but Oda's shown he has a method to his madness. If anything, I expect Awakening to be similar to Haki; something that's been a part of One Piece since the beginning, isn't outlandish and is usually pretty simple. As we all saw with gear 4th, it was absolutely simple and straightforward and I anticipate Awakening to be similar.

What is Awakening

Awakening is the full manifesting of a Devil fruit's full power; it's a phenomenon that occurs when one has fully learnt to control their devil fruit. A simple analogy to explain Awakening would be, it's more sensible to be able to ride a bicycle with perfect control at high speeds before upgrading to a motorbike or accidents will very likely occur; the same is synonymous with Devil fruits, you don't get to use the full potential of an ability when control isn't adequate or it becomes a counter-productive, harmful and useless power.


The user and the Devil fruit are 2 separate entities, Joker's brief description of awakening is consistent with this belief as the emphasis is on the fruit (power); he goes on to mentions that it's the Devil fruit that awakens rather than the user. Devil fruits as we know endow one with powers; unbeknownst to us, Joker informs us that there exists another stage to these Devil fruits which is called awakening. I will be breaking up Devil fruits stages into 2 sub-divisions:
  • Basic-Stage: When referring to the initial powers granted which is the repressed power of a Devil fruit.
  • Awakened-Stage: When referring to the full unsuppressed power of a Devil fruit.

Stage of Control

It seems rather reasonable conjecture for one to assume that only perfect control is necessary for one to Awaken. In other words, there are 2 levels of Devil fruit control:
  • Basic-fruit stage control: Imperfect control over a Devil fruit.
  • Awakened-stage control: Perfect control over a Devil fruit.
Advancing from Basic-fruit stage control to Awakened-stage control is when a Devil fruit advances to the Awakened-stage.


If it's the Devil fruit that awakens as stated by Joker, then it begs the question, what role does the user play in Awakening the Devil fruit? We assume Awakening to be the height of improvement regarding control or mastery over an ability, by observing how Devil fruit users have progressed, we can see the benefits of improvement.

This is chiefly witnessed amongst the SH crew as we get a good history regarding use of their ability until usage now; luckily, we have scenes of Luffy exercising his power from his youth, and we can make strong comparisons to indicate how much he has improved and the benefits.

Inexperience
  • Luffy from the age of 8 all the way to 17 has always needed to support his shoulder just to aim his most basic move, the Gomu Gomu no Pistol.
  • Against Smoker, he displayed the same flaws using Pistol.
Experience
  • With more experience fighting and using his ability, he's now able to pull of a Pistol without having to brace his own shoulder with his arm.
  • Even more, he's able to use more complex techniques like rifles whereby he twists his arm and Gear 2nd attacks which carry more speed and therefore require more understanding of trajectory, control and accuracy.
While some fruits just require control to master, some abilities may require exceptional physical qualities to also control perfectly. Therefore, in some cases, strength is a fundamental (possibly along with other physical qualities) to exercise perfect control over an ability.

Luffy is a great example of this because without the strength, stamina and pain-threshold to withstand his gears despite have on his body, he would be unable to control the powerful techniques he pulls off.

Rarity of Awakenings

Joker: Listen closely boy, there is another stage entirely to the powers of a Devil-fruit: Awakening!!!. It's very rare but, some powers can awaken and affect objects aside from the wielder.
The first thing to notice is he never says Awakening is rare; he just says it's the next and final stage to Devil fruit progression. He only mentions an aspect of awakening that is rare and that's when it affects both the user's body (which is the common occurrence) and things besides their body such as surrounding objects (is the rare aspect); Awakening in essence is not rare, it is only when it affects the surrounding.


While Films are not canon, they can be informative. Concerning Awakening, we get hints as to how it progresses an ability. It appears that there is a rather linear trend to it should one see the pattern.
Gild Tesoro:
The Gol Gol no Mi allows telekinetic manipulation of gold.
  • Since he awakened it, we're told the range/ distance his gold manipulation covered increased. Simplified - Gild Tesoro could manipulate gold within a certain area, Awakening increased the range or perimeter at which gold could be under his control.
Joker:
The Ito Ito no Mi allows creation/production of strings to be manipulated.
  • His fruit Awakening provides him with a greater source of strings (via surroundings) subsequently giving him more strings to manipulate. Simplified - Joker can create strings to manipulate, Awakening increased the amount of strings he could produce to be manipulated for more powerful attacks.
Impel Down Zoans:
Impel Down Zoans have generic standard Zoan ability which enhances strength, resilience & durability.
  • Since they awakened, we're told the strength, resilience & durability increased. Simplified - Zoans have increased strength, resilience & durability, Awakening multiplied strength, resilience and durability making their ability more powerful.
Awakening by the looks of things isn't based on DF classification, but on what the ability originally does meaning for example, all Paramecia Awakenings wouldn't be the same, why? because not all Paramecias produce something or transform into something. The effect of a Paramecia ability is diverse, so much it can give one qualities that seem most relevant to other subcategories of Devil fruits.

Invoking Occam's razor, look for the simplest explanation and by the looks of things, its imply enhancing one or more pre-existing attributes or qualities. By pre-existing, I'm implying Awakening wouldn't arbitrarily enhance an ability and change it into something else, it'd enhance qualities and properties of an ability that already exist within the ability. While this may come off tedious, here's the process for prediction:


We initially spotted the awakened Zoans in Impel-down and Crocodile mentioned that they had increased resilience due to being awakened. We only saw them in their Awakened-stage, but based on Crocodile's comment it can be deduced that their resilience is higher than it was in the Basic-stage.
  • Basic-Stage: Zoan Devil fruit grants a resistance value 30 (made up value).
  • Awakened-Stage: Zoan Devil fruit now grants a resistance value level of 100 (hypothetical value).
It is imperative that regular Zoan Devil fruits (as we learn from CP9) generally increase one's physical feats and this fruit clearly emphasized on their already heightened durability at the Awakened Stage.


Joker before mentioning he was an awakened devil fruit user showed amazing utility of his Devil fruit. We saw him healing internal injuries; creating clones; manipulating people and using it to fly. It's fair to say even without the Birdcage and the White techniques (off-white, God thread, etc), he showed excellent control and mastery.
  • Basic-Stage: The Devil fruit only create strings from the user's body and possesses less variety of strings.
  • Awakened-Stage: As we all saw, the Devil fruit now has a huge variety of strings and creates strings from outside the user's body too.
What's quite clear is the awakened string's fruit allowed him to have a larger source of strings which enabled him to execute a greater magnitude & variety ofattacks.


Luffy has shown excellent control over his abilities, his gears show how well Luffy has advanced in manipulating his abilities. Being that he's not awakened yet, we can only assume he still has a way to go before it's said to have fully mastered it. Both physical strength and control are required to master his fruit since that's what his ability functions on fundamentally. Without the physical strength, stamina, pain threshold and will power, he'd not have been able to handle the stress of Gear 2nd, 3rd and 4th.
  • Basic-Stage: Rubber Devil fruit grants the ability to stretch and expand.
  • Awakened-Stage: The Rubber Devil fruit now allows the user to stretch and expand even further.
If Luffy can stretch further because of enhanced elasticity, it means further ranged attacks; ability to increase the size of his Gear 3rd attacks; ability to compress more air in Gear 4th and maybe this will alleviate the stress on his heart when using Gears 2nd and 4th.


The purpose of awakening is to increase the effect of an ability; if an ability at the Basic-stage allows the user to do something, on awakening, this ability is enhanced. Crocodile states so indirectly. Zoan abilities enhance physical qualities such as toughness and recovery, it makes sense that awakening would increase this quality as opposed to transforming surrounding objects into their ability; the only instance it'd possibly affect objects is if the Zoan (mythical) had the ability to produce something.

Affecting surroundings wouldn't benefit all DF users either due to their various qualities. Someone like Joker who produces strings would benefit from being able to turn his surrounding into string since the ability actually benefits from being able to manipulate more strings while someone like Wapol whose ability is to eat anything cannot really have that quality transmuted into his surroundings - it becomes rather obscure how this works via the surroundings; this is the rationale behind why this phenomenon is rare amongst Awakened fruits.

Permanent or Temporary

It's a permanent effect. Where is the sense in being a master at controlling one's abilities for a moment and then suddenly being bad at it? None in my perspective. How to prove this? The Zoans in Impel-down were Awakened and despite losing consciousness, they remained in the same form.

This means awakening is not a temporary power-up since it neither requires stamina nor consciousness (like gear 4th) as proven by awakened Zoans and this is also consistent with the theory that it's a level of mastery which isn't
something lost with consciousness or stamina either. Part reason I use Gear 4th as the comparison is not to say it is a form of Awakening; the point I'm trying to make is I don't believe Awakening to be a mode, but a state one is always in.

Also, remember the Awakening occurs in the fruit; not the individual directly. So, even though Joker was knocked out, his fruit doesn't lose it's status of being awakened except on death where the new user will have to master the ability in order to unlock its potential.

Who is Likely Awakened?
  1. Whitebeard
  2. Aokiji
  3. Fujitora
  4. Akainu
  5. Sengoku
  6. Marco
  7. Katakuri
  8. Jack
Conclusion

It's relatively straight forward; once the user's control has advanced from Basic-stage control to Awakened-stage control, it means the Devil fruit advances to the Awakened staged where the full spectrum of the Devil fruit's power is the unleashed fully(permanently); Awakenings don't all affect the surrounding and more so since it's a rare occurrence and not always directly beneficial to the user.

Finally, the progression of what an Awakening will be is based on what an ability does rather than what class the ability belongs to that dictates what the Awakening entails, e.g. A fruit allows the user to grow bigger, Awakening will allow the user to grow even bigger.



Awakened Zoans are not mindless creature

There's a misconception that's been perpetuated that Zoans lose control of their mind as a result of being awakened because most interpret the scenes of the Awakened Zoans in Impel-down's fight as their going on a rampage.


Note: The picture above shows a contrast between the Awakened Zoans and Monster-point Chopper.
If the Impel-down Zoans are mindless:
  1. They wouldn't be idly stood by Sadie, they'd be out of control.
  2. We never even see the Awakened Zoans attack their own allies while Monster-point Chopper did.
  3. They're clearly capable of following orders while Chopper is not.
  4. One of the main reasons they're deemed as mindless is because they fight aggressively, but that's just their style of combat.
  5. They wouldn't be able to fight with Weapons adeptly if they were just mindless creatures.
  6. They wouldn't have specific job roles. Minotaurus beats up inmates in their cells and calmly leaves, not something a "mindless" creature does.
  7. Monster-point Chopper pre-timeskip would never have been able to behave like this since he is indeed mindless and feral.
  8. They're even capable of eating out of bowls, mindless creatures couldn't do that.
What's the point I'm trying to make here?

Simply that there's no correlation between being an out of control Zoan (like Monster-point Chopper pre-timeskip) and being awakened. If that were remotely true:
  1. It's contradicted by the fact that Chopper only needs 1 rumble ball, not 3 to transform into Monster-point while he's now able to access some "Points" that required rumble balls before without their aid now.
It ultimately shows that Chopper's rampage was due to his inability to control his abilities as well as he is now (post-timeskip).
Intro

Without further ado, Chopper's devil fruit is one of the most complex fruits to understand due to it's name; it's called the Hito-Hito no Mi which translated into English is known as Human Human fruit, and is why people believe the point of Chopper's DF is to make him human. The Hito Hito no Mi is misunderstood when one doesn't understand the method to the madness regarding Oda's logic in naming abilities.

However, I'll elaborate on why this is off to me at least, the name of the fruit is a bit of a misnomer (a misleading name) if one doesn't understand the rationale behind his ability nomenclature and this isn't the first time Oda has done this; Blackbeard's fruit is called the Yami Yami no Mi which is translated into Darkness Darkness fruit, yet it acts like a Black-hole. Black-holes can't be seen, therefore, Darkness is a fitting description aspect of it, and because it's associated with Infinite Gravity, we know he's a Black-hole man in essence.

Due to this, I believe one should take the names of fruits with a pinch of salt if not understanding the nuance behind naming and focus on what it does in order to gain a good understanding or hint of how said devil fruit works and what the ability is.

When we talk about evolution, the Human is thought to be the pinnacle of that process due to our intelligence and adaptability. Chopper's ability is to do with intelligence (Brain Point) and adaptability (by-products of evolution through natural selection) which are regarding his other points that have evolved to be more efficient for their purpose after the 2 year skip as I will soon showcase in some detail.

Lastly, being honest, Chopper looks nothing like a human; just look at how his Reindeer point changed in the 2 years time-skip:


  1. He has bigger horns.
  2. Bigger tail.
  3. Claws when he previously had something closer to hands.
He's not become anymore anthropomorphic or Human, rather, he's seemingly evolved his point to be more effective for its designated purpose.

However, can we tell his "Horn Point" has not improved?

We can because it clearly has and even Chopper himself confirms he's improved, so who are we to say otherwise? and it visually is quite evident too. With that said, I'll continue on with Chopper's devil fruit. I'll also like the focus to be on what about Chopper has improved and how that helps us understand what exactly his ability is.

Well, as I pointed out earlier with Chopper's Horn-point, it's improved despite not looking any more human. What is evident is that the features that accompany Chopper's new and improved Horn point since the time skip is:

What Chopper's devil fruit does despite the name

Well, as I pointed out earlier with Chopper's Horn-point, it's improved despite not looking any more human. What is evident is that the features that accompany Chopper's new and improved Horn point since the time skip is:
  1. With Bigger horns, he's horn is more formidable and much stronger.
  2. He now walks on 2 feet which means he can move while using his hand as a weapon.
  3. With his tail, it allows him to maintain balance. An upright spine to support his huge horn and also to help him walk upright. Clearly, his fruit has improved his previous forms, but how exactly did they improve them?
Note: He's even gone from previously possessing 5 fingers to 2 which contradicts the idea of becoming more Human.
The reason why Oda named this fruit the Human Human fruit is because Humans greatest feat is that we adapted which is generally associated with improvement (but not necessarily), or in other words, we evolved. Chopper's fruit is based on evolution which is what Chopper's ability has expressed through the visual changes seen in Horn point and in all his other points too (and some attributable to growth/puberty like walk-point).

Evolution

Evolution occurs through a process called natural selection which is basically mutations that randomly occur which helps a species to survive in its environment. A Mutation could be growing an extra limb, or extra digit or immunity to a disease; mutations occur by random chance. If these mutations are suited for the environmental conditions, these mutations help that species to thrive which sort of determines whether it's a good or bad mutation.

Reindeer Evolution

It's important to notice that the Human fruit is based on evolution as previously stated. We are off-spring of early primates, and overtime, we deviated through evolution aided by natural selection. Chopper's forms have since (the time-skip) changed and become more complex and effective for the desired purpose; for him, his evolution makes his points stronger and more effective for their purpose.

Conclusion & Awakening

The Hito-Hito no Mi is an ability that speeds up or acts as a catalyst to evolution. In the case of Chopper who is a Reindeer, it is Reindeer Evolution. Any creature who ate this fruit would likely evolve and improve whatever qualities they originally possessed along with intellect.

Following my explanation of Awakening enhancing pre-existing properties of an ability, Chopper's ability allows him to transform into points, and Awakening will increase the range of points at his disposal. Achieving Monster-point without a Rumble-ball as proof he's mastered his ability and will therefore imply he'd be able to achieve more forms; Kung-fu point was a point he never had pre-skip which he now does after the time-skip.
 
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kkck

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Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

There is no reason for logia users to be unable to use haki. If anything we have seen smoker use even armament haki as a rocket punch or something. Its also implied that akainu, aokiji and kizaru protected the gaol where ace was to be executed from WB's quake fruit via haki. There is no reason for haki between logia users to have any special considerations over other people.

Assuming two logia users without haki fight the issue would be how the elements interact. Purely elemental advantages so to speak. Perhaps it could simply end up being a battle of attrition and the one who gets tired first looses. But then that would be stupid and such an scenario would suggest both are incapable of affecting the other and it would be more effectively to literally do nothing.

Anyways, the manga skipped the ace vs smoker fight. And ace implied he would have beaten smoker to boot.
 

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Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

Smoker fights differently to other Logia; Akainu, Ace and Aokiji are happy to burn or freeze you with theirs, unlike smoker who just seems to use his DF for manoeuvring and bindings opponents when necessary.

We all know normal people or non Logia characters need CoA to hit intangible beings which I understand, also I'm not saying Logias shouldn't have Haki or Possess it. I'm just curious in how they apply it and mostly how they fight with their DF against aother logia if they didn't possess CoA.

Would Ace and Smoker just have been a stalemate? A fight that couldn't progress to a victor? I think Oda needs to show us the Akainu and Aokiji fight asap.

---------- Post added May 27, 2015 at 05:49 PM ---------- Previous post was May 26, 2015 at 11:27 AM ----------

Updated OP.
 

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Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

I don't think its impossible for a logia to use COA haki and logia powers at the same time. I mean, why? Haki can be imbued into stuff, we have seen that working with swords and arrows I don't see any reason for it to be impossible for a logia to imbue whatever he generates with haki. Now, perhaps the case can be made that you can't harden a something while intangible which would work for logias who are by nature not solid (say, ace). Its a logical impossibility, to be intangible and solid. So in the case of ace for instance he could potentially use haki to harden himself and he would still be fire but things wouldn't go through. The situation would perhaps be different for akainu and aokiji. They are both solid so to speak so their elements should be as hardenable as any other thing we have seen hardened before. I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually see black ice or lava.

I am not sure of what you mean about the grisly magnum stuff though. Why shouldn't he have been covered in the gas stuff?
 

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Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

On the CoA discussion, I imagine that basic "invisible" Haki can be applied to anything, even intangible and ephemeral elements. But now that Hardening is now becoming the standard for Haki, I imagine we won't be seeing it for a few characters elements. Aokiji and Akainu will be fine, since their elements are physical. Before Hardening became something that everyone used, I had thought that Haki would be able to be uniquely applied to different fruits and unique abilities.

I think that, with sufficient Haki, one can nullify another's Haki nullification, if that makes sense, which would potentially explain how Akainu survived Marco and Vista's attack during Marineford. I believe we saw the same thing in the last chapter when Jesus tried to beat up Sabo.

On the Logia vesus Logia discussion, without Haki, I imagine that it would boil down to a war of attrition. Whomever runs out of stamina first will be gone. At best, they would have to capitalize on their opponents tangible moments and try to catch each other off guard or just go straight to physical combat. It's going to be a long fight either way because of their inability to affect each other with their elements.

With Haki, I imagine it'll be the same thing, just on an entirely different level. Haki now means that every hit can potentially harm you, so you need to be on guard at all times. If my theory about Haki nullification is correct, then they need to make sure they have the right amout to nullify otherwise they could still be injured despite trying to protect themselves.

Ace versus Smoker should end with Smoker losing. From the evidence we have, Ace is physically superior to Smoker, so the moment Smoker solidifies to use his jutte, he will most likely get smashed.
 

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Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

I don't think its impossible for a logia to use COA haki and logia powers at the same time. I mean, why? Haki can be imbued into stuff, we have seen that working with swords and arrows I don't see any reason for it to be impossible for a logia to imbue whatever he generates with haki. Now, perhaps the case can be made that you can't harden a something while intangible which would work for logias who are by nature not solid (say, ace). Its a logical impossibility, to be intangible and solid. So in the case of ace for instance he could potentially use haki to harden himself and he would still be fire but things wouldn't go through. The situation would perhaps be different for akainu and aokiji. They are both solid so to speak so their elements should be as hardenable as any other thing we have seen hardened before. I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually see black ice or lava.

I am not sure of what you mean about the grisly magnum stuff though. Why shouldn't he have been covered in the gas stuff?

When Akainu got attacked by Marco and Vista, he screams Haki users just after he'd fought with Ace, to me this implies that Haki wasn't involved in their fight.

Also, I always assumed that not only does CoA allow one to hit Logias, but it also negates the power of the DF. If Luffy punched Akainu, I'd have assumed the risk of getting burnt is completely negated.

Follow that line of logic, I assumed Luffy's CoA using Grizzly magnum would negate the petrification caused by Caeser's DF which didn't happen; the petrification process slowed down significantly which made me conclude:

  • CoA first and foremost allows one to hit intangible beings.
  • Secondly, it negates the effects of a DF only minimally which means Luffy punching Akainu would still get burnt, but at less intensity depending on the strength of his CoA (probably).

Assuming CoA worked like this, then Akainu applying CoA to his Magma fist would be counter productive, it would lose the advantage of burning the opponent and lose Intangibility to an extent.

Other times I've seen Logias fight were in their forms where CoA seemed non-existent was Crocodile attacking Akainu.

The whole portrayal of CoA so far is to hit intangible beings which puts them at an advantage. A Logia can always switch between Logia form and Human form to attack, so I'm not so sure any more that they're capable of using CoA whilst in Logia form based on current findings and observations.

On the CoA discussion, I imagine that basic "invisible" Haki can be applied to anything, even intangible and ephemeral elements. But now that Hardening is now becoming the standard for Haki, I imagine we won't be seeing it for a few characters elements. Aokiji and Akainu will be fine, since their elements are physical. Before Hardening became something that everyone used, I had thought that Haki would be able to be uniquely applied to different fruits and unique abilities.

I think that, with sufficient Haki, one can nullify another's Haki nullification, if that makes sense, which would potentially explain how Akainu survived Marco and Vista's attack during Marineford. I believe we saw the same thing in the last chapter when Jesus tried to beat up Sabo.

On the Logia vesus Logia discussion, without Haki, I imagine that it would boil down to a war of attrition. Whomever runs out of stamina first will be gone. At best, they would have to capitalize on their opponents tangible moments and try to catch each other off guard or just go straight to physical combat. It's going to be a long fight either way because of their inability to affect each other with their elements.

With Haki, I imagine it'll be the same thing, just on an entirely different level. Haki now means that every hit can potentially harm you, so you need to be on guard at all times. If my theory about Haki nullification is correct, then they need to make sure they have the right amout to nullify otherwise they could still be injured despite trying to protect themselves.

Ace versus Smoker should end with Smoker losing. From the evidence we have, Ace is physically superior to Smoker, so the moment Smoker solidifies to use his jutte, he will most likely get smashed.
Indeed I also though Haki would blend in with the element of the Logia, but every time we've seen Logias with intangible elements go at it, there's never Haki (seemingly) involved and yes, it's possibly plot.

It may well be possible that this is true and possible and in fact it'd make sense, but during that clash between Ace and Akainu, there was no reference to Haki superiority which seems consistent with the brief tango between Ace and Smoker.

Indeed if Logias were unable to activate Haki whilst in Logia form, then fights will undoubtedly become one of attrition and stamina. It'd explain why Akainu and Aokiji fought for days, but I'm still trying to look into this as it's all speculation atm.

On a different note, I think I've found Evidence that Jinbe has Haki which will then mean that Ace does to a greater degree which I'll post on here later. :zomg

---------- Post added at 01:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 PM ----------
POSSIBLE EVIDENCE JINBE HAS HAKI (MEANING ACE MOST LIKELY HAS IT TOO SINCE THEY FOUGHT ONCE)

  • 00:05 - 00:40:
Mihawk closes his eyes and uses CoO to predict Luffy's movements after locating him, in his mind Mihawk sends a shockwave from his sword and it hits Luffy; Luffy at the same time is running as predicted in Mihawk's mind, but he senses danger by subconsciously using CoO momentarily which allows him to evade Mihawk's premeditated assault.

Note: Luffy confirms this by saying he cut me despite not being cut because he saw it in his own mind or predicted if you will.

  • 00:41 00:50:
Jinbe walks towards Luffy (who runs into a wall which in this circumstance has saved him), he follows with the dialogue "I would expect no less from Ace's brother".

In order for Jinbe to have said what he said, he needed to have seen what was about to happen too. He had to have seen what Luffy saw in his mind and what Mihawk predicted in his mind with CoO because Mihawk hadn't even executed his attack.

Note: According to the Anime only (as this scene isn't present in the manga), this imo proves that Jinbe is capable of at least CoO. One may speculate that he possesses CoA too.
 
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kkck

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Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

When Akainu got attacked by Marco and Vista, he screams Haki users just after he'd fought with Ace, to me this implies that Haki wasn't involved in their fight.

Also, I always assumed that not only does CoA allow one to hit Logias, but it also negates the power of the DF. If Luffy punched Akainu, I'd have assumed the risk of getting burnt is completely negated.

Follow that line of logic, I assumed Luffy's CoA using Grizzly magnum would negate the petrification caused by Caeser's DF which didn't happen; the petrification process slowed down significantly which made me conclude:

  • CoA first and foremost allows one to hit intangible beings.
  • Secondly, it negates the effects of a DF only minimally which means Luffy punching Akainu would still get burnt, but at less intensity depending on the strength of his CoA (probably).

Assuming CoA worked like this, then Akainu applying CoA to his Magma fist would be counter productive, it would lose the advantage of burning the opponent and lose Intangibility to an extent.

Other times I've seen Logias fight were in their forms where CoA seemed non-existent was Crocodile attacking Akainu.

The whole portrayal of CoA so far is to hit intangible beings which puts them at an advantage. A Logia can always switch between Logia form and Human form to attack, so I'm not so sure any more that they're capable of using CoA whilst in Logia form based on current findings and observations.



Indeed I also though Haki would blend in with the element of the Logia, but every time we've seen Logias with intangible elements go at it, there's never Haki (seemingly) involved and yes, it's possibly plot.

It may well be possible that this is true and possible and in fact it'd make sense, but during that clash between Ace and Akainu, there was no reference to Haki superiority which seems consistent with the brief tango between Ace and Smoker.

Indeed if Logias were unable to activate Haki whilst in Logia form, then fights will undoubtedly become one of attrition and stamina. It'd explain why Akainu and Aokiji fought for days, but I'm still trying to look into this as it's all speculation atm.
I don't think that constitutes evidence of ace not having haki. If that was the case then it would basically imply that anyone whom akainu faced before that did not have haki either...

I would argue that the assumption that haki negates fruits abilities on any degree is wrong (I have been making that point for a while). Haki has never been said in the manga to negate abilities in any form or context. It has only made the point that armor haki allows you to touch the physical bodies of logia users. But even in that scenario the body of said person is of the element in question. Haki being able to negate abilities would thread into kairoseki/yami fruit territory. The best example of haki not affecting fruits in any form or context would be luffy in gear 4. Doflamingo haki kicked a haki covered inflated luffy and he literally bounced off. If haki somehow interfered with fruits then this would be the ideal scenario for luffy's fruit to basically not work. And yet the opposite happened, it was specially effective. The same thing would happen with logias.

Now, the scenario with a hardened logia would not be that the hardened part is not of the element in question either. Logias have physical bodies however due to their fruit they can be intangible. Haki allows contact with said physical bodies without affecting the fruit itself. Now, when it comes to hardening it would work as with any other fruit, the only questionable part would be whether the hardening can work on, say, flames that ace is shooting. However if he uses hardening on his fist for instance it would be a hardened flame punch. It wouldn't stop being fire just because it is hardened.

Anime-only stuff is irrelevant one way or the other.
 

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Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

When I said negate, I don't mean negate in the sense of the way Yami Yami No Mi or Kairoseki negates; perhaps, reduce the potency of the DF attack rather. Akainu punching with a Magma covered fist with Haki would reduce the potency of the attack, less corrosive to the opponent.

I don't think they're capable of using CoA in tandem with body parts that have taken on intangible forms.

Although, with the Luffy Gear 4 form, I just assumed he was able to bounce off attacks because of the form itself and not the Haki. If Luffy were in any other form, he wouldn't be able to retain elasticity. I'd argue that if he coated his body fully in CoA he'd lose his elasticity.

Surprised that Anime wouldn't count as canon at least, odd.
 

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Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

When I said negate, I don't mean negate in the sense of the way Yami Yami No Mi or Kairoseki negates; perhaps, reduce the potency of the DF attack rather. Akainu punching with a Magma covered fist with Haki would reduce the potency of the attack, less corrosive to the opponent.

I don't think they're capable of using CoA in tandem with body parts that have taken on intangible forms.

Although, with the Luffy Gear 4 form, I just assumed he was able to bounce off attacks because of the form itself and not the Haki. If Luffy were in any other form, he wouldn't be able to retain elasticity. I'd argue that if he coated his body fully in CoA he'd lose his elasticity.

Surprised that Anime wouldn't count as canon at least, odd.
I got what you meant. But haki does not do that to DFs. I don't see why the attack would be less corrosive if its covered in haki (though technically magma is not corrosive anyways).

I am not sure we disagree on this part. Take smoker, he was able to use hardening. His fist of course was not intangible. Though I would argue that at the time its not like stopped being smoke. His fist was basically solid smoke, as much as it would be at any other time.

Haki alone has not shown anything relevant to bounding off attacks. It can be used to block but that is still nowhere near bouncing. As far as the elasticity thing I would argue that luffy has shown control over that. He maintains his elasticity in bounceman considering everything we have seen, just look at the bouncing. And then luffy can attack at a range stretching his limbs as he usually does. To add to that he is indeed able to harden his body so as to not stretch if he wants to. He caught doflamingo offguard like that since his punches did not unstretch. With logia users it should be about the same scenario.

Its a manga forum, the things in the anime which weren't changed are at best a reference. The jinbe-mihawk thing specifically did not happen at all in the manga at all so it has no canonical relevance (unless oda specifically says otherwise).
 

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Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

I think we disagree slightly, Smoker imo can only use Haki on parts of his body that haven't morped into smoke.

Except Haki can assimilate with the DFs I'm not so convinced that they can mix it atm. Unfortunately, all the moments we've seen Logias clash against each other have seemingly been exempt of CoA at least.

As for Luffy using Haki with Gear 4, I think it's the CoA's hardening effect that holds it together. I'm still unsure, but you do make really good points. Pretty disappointed at the fact Anime extra scenes that follow manga can still be considered non-canon, lol.
 

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Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

Jinbei don't need CoA. He uses water in others body to hit a logia. I know you guys know that, I am just stating it again.
 

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Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

Jinbei don't need CoA. He uses water in others body to hit a logia. I know you guys know that, I am just stating it again.
Wouldn't harm him to have it for defensive purposes at least, a Haki imbued hit is still deadly without adequate protection.
 

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Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

I think we disagree slightly, Smoker imo can only use Haki on parts of his body that haven't morped into smoke.
Not necessarily. I suppose it makes sense for him to return to his tangible form before throwing a fist.
 

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Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

Fishman karate can't replace haki though, at least not considering the scope we have seen from it. Haki serves offensive, defensive and evasive purposes. Sure, he can fight DF users with fishman karate but without it his attacks would still lack the extra kick haki gives, his defenses would be a step behind almost any decent haki user with armor haki and in a direct confrontation he would be a step behind his enemy even if he is faster since the enemy will almost literally see the attack coming. Jinbe can't possibly do without haki...
 

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Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

I was looking into this Haki and intangibility thing, I know Zoro cut Monet so does this mean Haki can be imbued into air? I'm finding that so hard to accept even though it does seem to be the case.

Also, on trying to answer this question, I cam across this video of the Admirals using Haki to block WBs shockwave to destroy the platform. It kind of makes out Haki can be used as a wall, but projected? I hope Oda goes in more depth with Haki now we're in the New World.

 
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Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

I was looking into this Haki and intangibility thing, I know Zoro cut Monet so does this mean Haki can be imbued into air? I'm finding that so hard to accept even though it does seem to be the case.

Also, on trying to answer this question, I cam across this video of the Admirals using Haki to block WBs shockwave to destroy the platform. It kind of makes out Haki can be used as a wall, but projected? I hope Oda goes in more depth with Haki now we're in the New World.
Yes, Zoro should be able to imbue Haki into his "flying" slashes. Cause it would be rather pointless to have them in the new world as Haki is basically needed to do real damages esp when fighting logias.

As for the admirals blocking WB shockwave it probably is debatable what that acutally was. Did this scene exist in the manga? If thats the case I'd say they blocked it simply with Armament Haki.
 

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Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

Yes, Zoro should be able to imbue Haki into his "flying" slashes. Cause it would be rather pointless to have them in the new world as Haki is basically needed to do real damages esp when fighting logias.

As for the admirals blocking WB shockwave it probably is debatable what that acutally was. Did this scene exist in the manga? If thats the case I'd say they blocked it simply with Armament Haki.
Yeah, it's in spoiler.

Yeah it's CoA, perhaps the fact that it's called armour implies that it's based on actual armour theme like shields, gauntlets, platebody, etc.

How Logias in general are hit is becoming quite the enigma, can Jinbei hit all Logias with Fishman karate only? We've seen moments were Hakiless attacks have had mild impacts; times Haki didn't seem to have an impact and apparently slashes that can cut Logias.

Either I'm getting myself confused or Oda really needs to be more in-depth. What difference is there between an air slash and fishman karate anyway?
 

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Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

Maybe you could argue that it depends on what "type" the logia user is. For example when Luffy hit Crocodile the sand just moved away and rendered Luffy's Punch useless. Its the same if Kizaru is hit or Enel (except by Luffy).
On the other hand we saw when Akainu or Akoji fought Luffy their elements didn't "auto dodge" the attacks, they rather blocked them.
I don't know if this is just inconsistency or if there is a deeper meaning behind all this like there are more categories that logia types can be devided in.
And I'd like to see that cause that would make every fruit and fighting style more unique.
 

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Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

Maybe you could argue that it depends on what "type" the logia user is. For example when Luffy hit Crocodile the sand just moved away and rendered Luffy's Punch useless. Its the same if Kizaru is hit or Enel (except by Luffy).
On the other hand we saw when Akainu or Akoji fought Luffy their elements didn't "auto dodge" the attacks, they rather blocked them.
I don't know if this is just inconsistency or if there is a deeper meaning behind all this like there are more categories that logia types can be devided in.
And I'd like to see that cause that would make every fruit and fighting style more unique.
When luffy fought Aokiji the punch did not go through but when WB pirates shot at Akainu it did go through.
 

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Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

When luffy fought Aokiji the punch did not go through but when WB pirates shot at Akainu it did go through.
Yeah. Magma though is partly fluid. The question would be wheather a normal punch would "simply" pass through Akainu or if it would hit him cause magma is partly solid. And if it can hit Akainu, another question is wheather it could affect him, if he is hit without Haki.
In my oppinion he should be hitable - Enel was hitable as well even if you consider that Luffy rubber body nullified the effect of Enels fruit altogether (which I always found a bit strange - what would Enel hold from still teleporting and gaining an advantage like that? But he just didn't do that.)
 
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