Discussion Ability Affinity with Armament Haki & Awakening

[kkck]

Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

I think we disagree slightly, Smoker imo can only use Haki on parts of his body that haven't morped into smoke.

Except Haki can assimilate with the DFs I'm not so convinced that they can mix it atm. Unfortunately, all the moments we've seen Logias clash against each other have seemingly been exempt of CoA at least.

As for Luffy using Haki with Gear 4, I think it's the CoA's hardening effect that holds it together. I'm still unsure, but you do make really good points. Pretty disappointed at the fact Anime extra scenes that follow manga can still be considered non-canon, lol.

My point is more along the lines that a logia user is never really not his element so to speak. So even a hardened limb will still be of that element even if its solid.

We can't really make the case that the clashes we have seen from logia users so far don't have haki. How? The basic form of haki is invisible which means ace/aokiji and aokiji/akainu and even ace/akainu could have been haki covered attacks. Even zoro's sword slashes can be covered with haki, we saw him cut monet. With that in mind its not weird that logia generated attacks could also be covered in haki.

Hardening does seem to be a pretty important part of gear 4 but only to the point where it enhances luffy's rubbery qualities. He uses it to manipulate his elasticity and bounciness to great effect...

---------- Post added at 11:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:57 AM ----------

Yeah. Magma though is partly fluid. The question would be wheather a normal punch would "simply" pass through Akainu or if it would hit him cause magma is partly solid. And if it can hit Akainu, another question is wheather it could affect him, if he is hit without Haki.
In my oppinion he should be hitable - Enel was hitable as well even if you consider that Luffy rubber body nullified the effect of Enels fruit altogether (which I always found a bit strange - what would Enel hold from still teleporting and gaining an advantage like that? But he just didn't do that.)

Wouldn't a normal, hakiless, punch come in contact with akainu but simply not cause any damage while at the same time damaging the puncher for touching lava unprotected? This seems pretty straightforward.

 

[Fox666]

Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

Maybe you could argue that it depends on what "type" the logia user is. For example when Luffy hit Crocodile the sand just moved away and rendered Luffy's Punch useless. Its the same if Kizaru is hit or Enel (except by Luffy).
On the other hand we saw when Akainu or Akoji fought Luffy their elements didn't "auto dodge" the attacks, they rather blocked them.
I don't know if this is just inconsistency or if there is a deeper meaning behind all this like there are more categories that logia types can be devided in.
And I'd like to see that cause that would make every fruit and fighting style more unique.

Is that not because Aokiji is made of ice which is solid?

 

[Lighty]

Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

@kkck: It would make sense to a certain extent and I think that the part with the burn on contact can be considered proven.
However, if the punch hits Akainu it has to create some kind of shockwave and if it knocks Akainu back it should do some fall damage at least.
It could be a bit similier to Magellan (I know he's not a logia) but it should work the same way. Luffy was able to hit him but hitting him damaged him. Should be similar with Akainus fruit. At least in terms of logic.

@Fox666: Exactly my point. The example Akoji shows that not all Logia users are alike and can avoid physical attacks just because they are logia.
And as Akoji is solid because he is ice he should get damage from a normal punch (that is strong) because ice is breakable.

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

POSSIBLE EVIDENCE JINBE HAS HAKI (MEANING ACE MOST LIKELY HAS IT TOO SINCE THEY FOUGHT ONCE)

Wat. What is this for a logical conclusion? Its like saying Luffy can use Rokushiki to its fulliest, because he fought Rob Lucci once.

 

[I Am Atomic]

Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

Sabo uses this attack and if you look at his hand you can see that he uses dragon claw fist. When he uses that technique he always (IMO) uses haki. As you can see after burgess says "so hot" his claw fist is still that shape and is still burning. So he is using haki and his DF power at the same time.

He is wearing a black glove so we do not know if he is using haki. I strongly doubt that his dragon claw fist will be strong without haki.


EDIT: I spot a mistake on my own comment. When sabo does the kamehameha pose on burgess you can see some of his skin between his sleeve and gloves and the skin is white (not being racist). So he is not using haki.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

Sabo uses this attack and if you look at his hand you can see that he uses dragon claw fist. When he uses that technique he always (IMO) uses haki. As you can see after burgess says "so hot" his claw fist is still that shape and is still burning. So he is using haki and his DF power at the same time.

He is wearing a black glove so we do not know if he is using haki. I strongly doubt that his dragon claw fist will be strong without haki.


EDIT: I spot a mistake on my own comment. When sabo does the kamehameha pose on burgess you can see some of his skin between his sleeve and gloves and the skin is white (not being racist). So he is not using haki.

Haha white Sabo white?!

I looked at this earlier too, there's still things I'm trying to figure out.

When Marco & Vista attacked Akainu with Haki, it didn't seem to affect him. Maybe he used CoO to predict the attack and created gaps for the attacks to go through like Aokiji did to Whitebeard?

 

[kkck]

Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

Sabo uses this attack and if you look at his hand you can see that he uses dragon claw fist. When he uses that technique he always (IMO) uses haki. As you can see after burgess says "so hot" his claw fist is still that shape and is still burning. So he is using haki and his DF power at the same time.

He is wearing a black glove so we do not know if he is using haki. I strongly doubt that his dragon claw fist will be strong without haki.


EDIT: I spot a mistake on my own comment. When sabo does the kamehameha pose on burgess you can see some of his skin between his sleeve and gloves and the skin is white (not being racist). So he is not using haki.

So racist, sabo is asian, not white...

In all seriousness though, his skin not being hardened does not rule out him using haki. The basic form of armament haki is basically invisible. And considering the level at which sabo would fight it does not make sense he would hit burgues without haki. Burgues is a proficient haki user and one that even sabo acknowledged would take him some work to defeat (though I don't think burgues has a chance in hell). And the technique sabo used was one we specifically saw was originally purely physical. The scenario right now is that sabo used a physical technique with his haki and also enhanced with his devil fruit ability. There is no reason for us to assume using haki would get in the way of him using his fruit or that he would fight without haki to begin with.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

So racist, sabo is asian, not white...

In all seriousness though, his skin not being hardened does not rule out him using haki. The basic form of armament haki is basically invisible. And considering the level at which sabo would fight it does not make sense he would hit burgues without haki. Burgues is a proficient haki user and one that even sabo acknowledged would take him some work to defeat (though I don't think burgues has a chance in hell). And the technique sabo used was one we specifically saw was originally purely physical. The scenario right now is that sabo used a physical technique with his haki and also enhanced with his devil fruit ability. There is no reason for us to assume using haki would get in the way of him using his fruit or that he would fight without haki to begin with.

Ahhh! Do you mean "Busoshoku" is invisible and "Bososhoku Koka" is the hardened version? From what I've read Busoshoku doesn't darken, but Koka does. Why isn't the latter used during the war or is this error on Oda's part or am I thinking of it the wrong way?

 

[I Am Atomic]

Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

Ahhh! Do you mean "Busoshoku" is invisible and "Bososhoku Koka" is the hardened version? From what I've read Busoshoku doesn't darken, but Koka does. Why isn't the latter used during the war or is this error on Oda's part or am I thinking of it the wrong way?

The haki covers most of his forearm.

Marco, WB, Jozu, Rayleigh used the invisible one.

But I think all are the same, now it's black because the readers can see it.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

The haki covers most of his forearm.

Marco, WB, Jozu, Rayleigh used the invisible one.

But I think all are the same, now it's black because the readers can see it.

Ahhh! So it seems the invisible form of Haki allows one to hit mainly intangible things, is passive and can be applied to DF powers, air slashes, etc, while the one with blackening effect is a stronger coating of Haki that hardens things and can be depleted?

 

[I Am Atomic]

Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

Ahhh! So it seems the invisible form of Haki allows one to hit mainly intangible things, is passive and can be applied to DF powers, air slashes, etc, while the one with blackening effect is a stronger coating of Haki that hardens things and can be depleted?

That actually makes sense!

That explains why when Zoro cut Monet his slash wasn't black.

 

[kkck]

Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

The haki covers most of his forearm.

Marco, WB, Jozu, Rayleigh used the invisible one.

But I think all are the same, now it's black because the readers can see it.

Its not the same, the manga has even made distinctions between the two. The invisible armor haki is the basic version and the hardened haki is basically a more advanced version. I don't think there is a functionality difference between the two, I would argue the armored version is simply an improved version of the non armored one. Basically more of what the invisible version does. So the invisible version provides the armor which works for defense and increased offense. The hardened version provides enhanced power and defense. I guess the question would be whether you can harden smoke or fire. Other than that using any form of haki should work pretty much the same with just about any fruit, logias don't have anything which would fundamentally alter haki usage. Just look at sabo, even as a fire logia he is simply using his normal attacks but with fire. Logias have physical bodies after all.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

That actually makes sense!

That explains why when Zoro cut Monet his slash wasn't black.

Its not the same, the manga has even made distinctions between the two. The invisible armor haki is the basic version and the hardened haki is basically a more advanced version. I don't think there is a functionality difference between the two, I would argue the armored version is simply an improved version of the non armored one. Basically more of what the invisible version does. So the invisible version provides the armor which works for defense and increased offense. The hardened version provides enhanced power and defense. I guess the question would be whether you can harden smoke or fire. Other than that using any form of haki should work pretty much the same with just about any fruit, logias don't have anything which would fundamentally alter haki usage. Just look at sabo, even as a fire logia he is simply using his normal attacks but with fire. Logias have physical bodies after all.

Thanks for the explanation!

 

[Deleted member 169696]

Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

Thinking of Aokiji and Akainu clash 2 years ago... It's really hard to tell which fruit is superior, judging from the video below. But as for me, I find lava to be weaker than ice.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

Thinking of Aokiji and Akainu clash 2 years ago... It's really hard to tell which fruit is superior, judging from the video below. But as for me, I find lava to be weaker than ice.

I was watching this few days ago funnily enough, . I wasn't sure, I'd say they're about even.

 

[kkck]

Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

Well, the scenario where a fire and ice logia meet would be a tad different. In the video you see water vapor forming a sort of protective barrier between the lava and the ice. However in this confrontation that would not be much of a thing because of the way they fight. In principle what we would see during the fight is fire and ice punches and other attacks. Ice in the video relies in vapor flowing upward through the lava which would seem to even further cool down the lava as the vapor clearly is heating up a lot. However if you have akainu punching aokiji or the reverse vapor wouldn't flow through the lava, it would go upward not through the lava. Not to mention that akainu's lava is more solid so to speak, its basically a fist so even then vapor will mostly go around him thus not having the same cooling effect as in the video. We also did see a lava vs ice thing in the war, akainu completely evaporated the iceberg jozu threw without visibly cooling down.

 

[I Am Atomic]

Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

Well, the scenario where a fire and ice logia meet would be a tad different. In the video you see water vapor forming a sort of protective barrier between the lava and the ice. However in this confrontation that would not be much of a thing because of the way they fight. In principle what we would see during the fight is fire and ice punches and other attacks. Ice in the video relies in vapor flowing upward through the lava which would seem to even further cool down the lava as the vapor clearly is heating up a lot. However if you have akainu punching aokiji or the reverse vapor wouldn't flow through the lava, it would go upward not through the lava. Not to mention that akainu's lava is more solid so to speak, its basically a fist so even then vapor will mostly go around him thus not having the same cooling effect as in the video. We also did see a lava vs ice thing in the war, akainu completely evaporated the iceberg jozu threw without visibly cooling down.

Also he destroyed the solid Ice ground the WB were standing on using the move Volcanic Meteors IIRC.

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Increased Volume and better Haki?

From what I now understand, Armament Haki is always invisible unless when hardened which is where it appears to be black.

• The first frame we see Sabo's flames dispersed around Burgess huge figure.
• In the third frame we see Burgess is still in the same stance as in the firs frame.

Sabo reacted faster and lands a hit literally in the same motion of Burgess' punch, he dodged the punch so definitely didn't retain intangibility with Armament Haki.

This scene seems to imply Armament Haki can't be used to retain intangibility against Haki imbued attacks.

This has different implications depending on how one decides to interpret it:

• Smoker increasing his volume should make him a target to any Haki user as I though, but why Vergo uses the word better Haki user?
  
• If Smoker had better Haki than Vergo, would it not matter if he increased his volume as this would imply he can bypass Haki imbued attacks?

Or is Vergo alluding to having superior Observation haki? I'd assume even Tashigi could land attacks on Smoker if he increased his volume to this extent. Any thoughts?

 

[Sachsenhesse]

Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

Or is Vergo alluding to having superior Observation haki?

Probably this.

This scene seems to imply Armament Haki can't be used to retain intangibility against Haki imbued attacks.

Why should it in the first place? When you want to disappear why should you make yourself rocksolid?

 

[Hannibal Psyche]

Re: How exactly do Logias fight against each other and How is CoA used?

Probably this.



Why should it in the first place? When you want to disappear why should you make yourself rocksolid?

It is as you have rightly said, it does seem weird and illogical; however, Isn't it intriguing as to how exactly a Logia like Akainu could be unaffected by a Haki imbued slash from Vista & Marco?

Just curious as to how exactly a Logia would incorporate Armament Haki in a defensive manner, Maybe there are other forms of Armament Haki or applications we're unaware.

Most of the feats displayed by the Admirals made Armament Haki seem like a joke, but it could be that they're just exceedingly proficient with Observation Haki and their DFs.