Ace vs Aokji

[ace_mera2]

i vote ace, name same with me, hahhaa
because ace=fire
aokiji=no water

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

Fire can melt ice extremely fast, basically instantaneously.

Sorry, but that statement is not always true. The time needed to melt something depends on the size of the (common) fire and the ice (an important sizer of concentrated fire is an exception because of his huge heat).[/QUOTE]

Ice can never actually stop fire no matter how much ice there is, the fire will win.

As I said, do not confuse stop and make vanishing. Here stops means that his trajectory is affected by the clash with ice and the fire is blocked and lost his physical speed because it takes some time to melt completely the ice.
Indeed, fire thrown will not always pass through ice instantaneously. Then, fire can be stopped by loosing his physical speed.
And fire can vanished in some circumstances. A fire spears that sticks into a giant ice wall will vanished because ice is constituted of water. This is the same thing with the fire bullets. Do you seriously imagine that if Ace fire his fire bullets in an iceberg, it will not vanished ? It is to little to support the melting of the ice : water.

A big ice wall is the same as a small ice wall, ice melts at a constant rate (depending on the intensity of the fire) so a massive ice wall will be useless. Ace doesn't need to break down the whole ice wall to hit Aokiji, only a small bit of it. One fire spear would go straight through an ice wall due to the heat energy of the flames. Aokiji's body would melt in the very presence of "Entei" (as the attack is similar to the sun itself) and it will easily be able to bypass as sort of ice defense. Aokiji practically has no way to beat Ace using his fruit's powers because fire will always defeat ice.

A big ice wall is not the same than a small ice wall, the width to burn is different, the depth to melt is different etc ...
To caricature, imagine a large ice wall with a huge or an infinite depth : I am not sure that it will have no effect on your fire attacks. Do not forget that the fire that Ace thrown will be sentenced to vanish after a certain time if it have no " fuel " to feed it. Ice is not a fuel to fire. Then, the time it takes to melt is important and must be considered.
And the effects of ice against fire depends if the flames of the fire are concentrated or scattered. If it is concentrated, the heat will be so huge that it will melt the part touched instantaneously.
nota bene : I totally agree with your Entei example : I quoted it myself and filed it in the concentrated fire in my last post.

PS: Nice new avatar btw Lord Rayleigh

Thanks. I would have liked it to be a little more large but it is not possible.

 

[Cruewk]

I think it's more simple then you guys are making it out to be.

Aokiji can become and manipulate ice, not water. The fact that fire can turn ice into water simply proves that Ace does have an incredible upper hand because Aokiji's DF is completely useless. Just because ice can be turned into water by Ace's attacks doesn't mean the said water can be used against him, since Aokiji cannot control that element.

In short, there is absolutely no way ice can overcome fire.

Aokiji's attacks seem to be based on freezing an opponent with the use of ice which is completely useless when trying to freeze fire, you cannot do it.

That said, we are talking in anime world. It's safe to say that Aokiji has mastered his DF completely. Ace on the other hand, is still quite young and probably has not. This might give Aokiji an advantage (maybe the power to freeze weak flames or something). Hands down Aokiji beats Ace in a regular fight without DF powers though.

But generally, I'll go with Ace to win this fight.

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

I think it's more simple then you guys are making it out to be.

Aokiji can become and manipulate ice, not water. The fact that fire can turn ice into water simply proves that Ace does have an incredible upper hand because Aokiji's DF is completely useless. Just because ice can be turned into water by Ace's attacks doesn't mean the said water can be used against him, since Aokiji cannot control that element.

Actually, I never said Ao Kiji could control the water coming from the melt ice. I just said that some of the fire attacks could be blocked by Ao Kiji's powers.

 

[Gecko Moria]

Sorry, but that statement is not always true. The time needed to melt something depends on the size of the (common) fire and the ice (an important sizer of concentrated fire is an exception because of his huge heat).


As I said, do not confuse stop and make vanishing. Here stops means that his trajectory is affected by the clash with ice and the fire is blocked and lost his physical speed because it takes some time to melt completely the ice.
Indeed, fire thrown will not always pass through ice instantaneously. Then, fire can be stopped by loosing his physical speed.
And fire can vanished in some circumstances. A fire spears that sticks into a giant ice wall will vanished because ice is constituted of water. This is the same thing with the fire bullets. Do you seriously imagine that if Ace fire his fire bullets in an iceberg, it will not vanished ? It is to little to support the melting of the ice : water.


A big ice wall is not the same than a small ice wall, the width to burn is different, the depth to melt is different etc ...
To caricature, imagine a large ice wall with a huge or an infinite depth : I am not sure that it will have no effect on your fire attacks. Do not forget that the fire that Ace thrown will be sentenced to vanish after a certain time if it have no " fuel " to feed it. Ice is not a fuel to fire. Then, the time it takes to melt is important and must be considered.
And the effects of ice against fire depends if the flames of the fire are concentrated or scattered. If it is concentrated, the heat will be so huge that it will melt the part touched instantaneously.
nota bene : I totally agree with your Entei example : I quoted it myself and filed it in the concentrated fire in my last post.


Thanks. I would have liked it to be a little more large but it is not possible.

Your points are based completely around how Aokiji can defend against Ace. I agree that even if he is at a disadvantage Aokiji could put up a good fight, but he can't win the battle by just defending. Additionally, any ice attack he attempts to throw at Ace will fail since it will melt in the heat of Ace's fire body.

I think it's more simple then you guys are making it out to be.

Aokiji can become and manipulate ice, not water. The fact that fire can turn ice into water simply proves that Ace does have an incredible upper hand because Aokiji's DF is completely useless. Just because ice can be turned into water by Ace's attacks doesn't mean the said water can be used against him, since Aokiji cannot control that element.

In short, there is absolutely no way ice can overcome fire.

Aokiji's attacks seem to be based on freezing an opponent with the use of ice which is completely useless when trying to freeze fire, you cannot do it.

That said, we are talking in anime world. It's safe to say that Aokiji has mastered his DF completely. Ace on the other hand, is still quite young and probably has not. This might give Aokiji an advantage (maybe the power to freeze weak flames or something). Hands down Aokiji beats Ace in a regular fight without DF powers though.

But generally, I'll go with Ace to win this fight.

That's exactly what we've been talking about a few pages back. Sometimes discussion needs to get a bit complicated to prove a point.

If you read some of my posts in the previous pages you'll realize I was saying what you just said. And you're dead correct. Aokiji can only control ice, not water. His attacks/defenses are close to useless against Ace because they will melt. As you said, even though Aokiji has complete mastery of his Devil Fruit and is more experienced, it's basically impossible to overcome such a barrier against an opponent who is also powerful.

 

[bittman]

I don't know what the drama here is about, Gecko seems to speak sense of course.

Aokoji creates and controls ice. Yes, it melts into water, so of course he cannot control it then. The amount of water ice turns into would be negligible, and outside of Aokoji's control. He would need to raise half an ocean above Ace for him to melt to have a hope of hitting him with water.

I also believe Aokoji is stronger than Ace in terms of power and experience, but type match-ups can turn it one way fast. I mean, Mr 3 is insanely weak whilst Magellan is insanely powerful, yet the only one to stop the Hydra was Mr 3. The differences are nowhere near this level, but Ace still has a clear advantage.

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

Your points are based completely around how Aokiji can defend against Ace. I agree that even if he is at a disadvantage Aokiji could put up a good fight, but he can't win the battle by just defending. Additionally, any ice attack he attempts to throw at Ace will fail since it will melt in the heat of Ace's fire body.

That's right. But I just wanted to show that Ao Kiji is not easy to beat even by Ace only because of logia powers they both have.
Besides, as you could have seen, I think that his logia could be useful even if Ace has a fire logia. It could not protect against everything but it can help in a fight, an idea that a lot of person did not consider in this fight.
Then, if I was about to fight against Ace, I would definitely prefer to have an ice logia than nothing.

nota bene : I never said that Ao Kiji could control water, that fire cannot melt ice, and that ice can beat Ace.

 

[Gecko Moria]

That's right. But I just wanted to show that Ao Kiji is not easy to beat even by Ace only because of logia powers they both have.
Besides, as you could have seen, I think that his logia could be useful even if Ace has a fire logia. It could not protect against everything but it can help in a fight, an idea that a lot of person did not consider in this fight.
Then, if I was about to fight against Ace, I would definitely prefer to have an ice logia than nothing.

I have never said that Aokiji would be easily defeated by Ace. No matter what, Aokiji will always be a difficult opponent but Ace will eventually win out. Obviously, the Hie Hie No Mi would still be better than nothing against Ace and his fire powers.

nota bene : I never said that Ao Kiji could control water, that fire cannot melt ice, and that ice can beat Ace.

Of course, but you did use fire melting ice to produce water that can counter Ace's fire in one of your points.

 

[Lord Rayleigh]

I have never said that Aokiji would be easily defeated by Ace. No matter what, Aokiji will always be a difficult opponent but Ace will eventually win out. Obviously, the Hie Hie No Mi would still be better than nothing against Ace and his fire powers.

Ok. And I, added that his DF can be more useful than people may think.

Of course, but you did use fire melting ice to produce water that can counter Ace's fire in one of your points.

Produce ? This is not the best word because this is not Ao Kiji that produces water, that is the consequence of the clash between fire and ice. Then, it has nothing to do with the control of water and I think it's fine.

And as I said, in some circumstances, the ice can totally evaporate with the contact of fire or not : it depends on the gap between the quantity of ice, and the heat (" concentration ") and the size of the fire. But it is undeniable that the ice cools down the fire : it may have no consequences on the attack but as I said : it could in some cases, vanish the fire or change/ block the trajectory of the fire.
But it is only an analyse of quantity of fire and ice thrown by both of them. If they are still in contact with their body, the fire will still be fuel by Ace and is going to go through ice without problems.
But if the fire is not fuel anymore, that means Ace has thrown it, the fire is going to vanish (unless it meets wood, or other flammable things : but we suppose the target is Ao Kiji). The problem is to know if it vanished before it could injure Ao Kiji or not : that is why the Ao Kiji's power could be useful : to slow the fire with ice the time it vanishes or clearly to put it out with a really more important quantity of ice.

 

[modoki]

I can see that a lot of users here are rely on Pokemon elemental physics to compare whose stronger. In this kind of show, there's more to it than that.

To the point, Aokiji is the one who would win in this fight. Also keep in mind, the ice that spurs through aokiji is that of dry ice related used today. In addition, aokiji has enough supplemental training as an Admiral. Comparing the past battle with a Captain level marine such as smoker to Ace is one thing.

Aside from who has a better DF, comparing strengths and fighting power between the two is like a ant with a magnifying glass.
This being said, if Ace does not know any form of haki to use with fighting power. Forget about fighting.

If the fight were realistic it would take as long as the Ace/BB battle.

I voted for aokiji.

 

[DSJump]

Well, sincewe've seen Mr 3 (!) doing good against Magellan, We can assume that all logia users all have a big disadvantage against some other DF users. Here I say that fire elts ice is the case, since Aokiji can't PRODUCE ice out of thin air but Ace can produce flames out of thin air.

 

[kkck]

What makes you think ace or aokiji can produce stuff out of thin air?

 

[Black Lagoon]

I can see that a lot of users here are rely on Pokemon elemental physics to compare whose stronger. In this kind of show, there's more to it than that.

To the point, Aokiji is the one who would win in this fight. Also keep in mind, the ice that spurs through aokiji is that of dry ice related used today. In addition, aokiji has enough supplemental training as an Admiral. Comparing the past battle with a Captain level marine such as smoker to Ace is one thing.

Aside from who has a better DF, comparing strengths and fighting power between the two is like a ant with a magnifying glass.
This being said, if Ace does not know any form of haki to use with fighting power. Forget about fighting.

If the fight were realistic it would take as long as the Ace/BB battle.

I voted for aokiji.

Ace is untouchable, even the dry Ice doesn't have any effect in him, unless Aokiji is able to use Haki for me Ace is a clear winner. IMO

 

[Poneglyph420]

I have to agree that head to head Ace would be the winner. And in any event we know that Ace would have the "will of D" to his advantage. But this is the kind of fight that would be akin to the brutality of Luffy and Lucci..
Aokiji is far better trained, but that's it.

Even if Ace wins, it's gripping to the edge of death...
But amazingly victorious..
Hope we can see some form of this soon.....

 

[Gecko Moria]

I can see that a lot of users here are rely on Pokemon elemental physics to compare whose stronger. In this kind of show, there's more to it than that.

To the point, Aokiji is the one who would win in this fight. Also keep in mind, the ice that spurs through aokiji is that of dry ice related used today. In addition, aokiji has enough supplemental training as an Admiral. Comparing the past battle with a Captain level marine such as smoker to Ace is one thing.

Aside from who has a better DF, comparing strengths and fighting power between the two is like a ant with a magnifying glass.
This being said, if Ace does not know any form of haki to use with fighting power. Forget about fighting.

If the fight were realistic it would take as long as the Ace/BB battle.

I voted for aokiji.

No, it's not Pokemon information, it's the laws of physics. Fire melting ice is a natural phenomenon, not just Pokemon abilities. Fire produces heat which is able to break the bonds holding ice together and causing it to melt into water. So far the laws of physics seem to apply to Devil Fruit users so why should fire vs. ice be any different? For example, Mr. 3's wax melts in the presence of fire, Luffy is unaffected by Enel's lightning because he's rubber, Smoker is scared he'll get blown away if he transforms in windy weather etc. etc.

Well, sincewe've seen Mr 3 (!) doing good against Magellan, We can assume that all logia users all have a big disadvantage against some other DF users. Here I say that fire elts ice is the case, since Aokiji can't PRODUCE ice out of thin air but Ace can produce flames out of thin air.

Magellan's Poison Poison Fruit isn't a logia type, it's a Paramecia. All Devil Fruit powers have disadvantages against something, not just logias.

What makes you think ace or aokiji can produce stuff out of thin air?

One of the abilities of logia users is to be able to generate large amounts of their element, in addition to being able to control it.

 

[ekw]

aokiji would win hands down.
Create a prism of ice around ace and maintain that prism. If Ace keeps using his fire he would run out of oxygen or drown from the melting ice. If you think ace will just punch his way out the ice, aokiji could spike the interior of the prism. And besides zoro's sword couldn't break aokiji's ice sword http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/320/09/, it would be no easy task to punch your way out.

 

[jerrycoke]

Hello guys, I've been following this forum when bored for a long time, now seeing this discussion I just couldn't help myself but jump right into it. I didn't take the time to read it whole though, so don't lapidate me if I repeat something, please

Please notice that my thoughts are all based to a long range/mid range based fights where Aokiji somehow throws iceballs. They do not however regard a MELEE fight!

Sorry, but that statement is not always true. The time needed to melt something depends on the size of the (common) fire and the ice (an important sizer of concentrated fire is an exception because of his huge heat).

Not quite, The time needed to melt something depends on the energy needed to make it melt and the speed that this amount of energy is getting close enoughe to work it's magic aka melt it. Imagine a block of ice that is -240°C (dunno the amount in Farenheit sorry) and another block of ice of the same size that is at -10°C. Obviously it would need much much more energy (fire size+heat imo) to melt the block of ice that is colder. Therefore a block of ice that is at -240°C, but just big enoughe to block a fire based attack so that parts of it wouldn't just fly past it might just have a chance of deflecting the fire based attack depending on it's inherited energy (heat+size) while a much bigger block of ice at say -10°C would melt almost in an instant.

I hope you understand what I'm getting at.

So basically the long range fight between Ace and Aokiji would go down to:
1. The size of their attacks because a giant fireball can just run past a tiny ice obstacle while melting it whole/partly and only losing little of it's energy
2. The exotherm (fire/giving away energy) and endotherm (ice/taking away energy aka absorbing it) energy of their attacks
3. The actual speed of the attacks... a HUGE fireball and a Big block of extremely endotherm (cold ) ice both at great speed... the ice block might just pass through the fireball, warmer than before, maybe slightly smaller but still racing towards ace to give him a knock-out.

Regarding the theory of ice melting to water to counter ace's fire... it's just plain bad.
-Imagine, a block of ice thrown towards Ace, he counters with fire, fire starts melting the ice, ice becomes water, fire's gone gg Ace.
-Imagine, a block of ice thrown towards Ace, he counters with fire, fire is EXTREMELY POWERFUL, melts ice almost instantly, ice doesnt become water, it becomes STEAM.
-> So either Ace's attack melts the ice real fast or the ice will rush towards him as water/ice with insane speed -> it all comes down to the temperature guys =D

aokiji would win hands down.
Create a prism of ice around ace and maintain that prism. If Ace keeps using his fire he would run out of oxygen or drown from the melting ice. If you think ace will just punch his way out the ice, aokiji could spike the interior of the prism. And besides zoro's sword couldn't break aokiji's ice sword http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/320/09/, it would be no easy task to punch your way out.

Question: Can Aokiji freeze air? Well I havn't seen him do so untill now so I guess he can't which means he would have to throw bucks of water at ace who would just melt them to steam before Aokiji somehow freezes them on long range lol

If however Aokiji can freeze the water inherited by out air then he would be a serious threat to everyone, hell even sengoku, but not Ace. Ace could just turn on flames and Melt the slowly created prism to steam - ofc.
If however Aokiji can create a prism real fast out of _THE WATER IN OUR AIR_ which isn't much in many parts of this planet Ace would be screwed ofc.

I can see Aokiji annihilate whole tropical islands if he can freeze the water in our air lol.
Aokiji for pirate king... :S

3rd edit:

To me it seems as if Aokiji's Logia is a little different. Imo he isn't able to create ice but only freeze everything, even his very own body.

 

[bittman]

I just wanted to say jerrycoke: That is seriously one of the best first posts I've seen on this forum. Get's a bit sciency, but really well explained and right on the money.

I concur with all the questions you raise, and that's all I really need to say about that. I still bet Ace over Aokoji, but then again we've seen Ace fight seriously, but we haven't seen Aokoji fight seriously so it's quite hard to gauge their levels by comparison.

Basically it comes down to the temperature.

 

[DARK]

That is, assuming that Aokiji's ice is cold enough to freeze even flames, which we haven't seen yet. Scenario-wise, Ace has the disadvantage. Aokiji is an Admiral and ridicously powerful. Also, Ace's abilities are completely nullified while in the sea. Aokiji can simply stand on any ice he creates and freeze the sea.

 

[jerrycoke]

I just wanted to say jerrycoke: That is seriously one of the best first posts I've seen on this forum. Get's a bit sciency, but really well explained and right on the money.

I concur with all the questions you raise, and that's all I really need to say about that. I still bet Ace over Aokoji, but then again we've seen Ace fight seriously, but we haven't seen Aokoji fight seriously so it's quite hard to gauge their levels by comparison.

Basically it comes down to the temperature.

Thanks for the credit, it took me quite some time to put that stuff together

That is, assuming that Aokiji's ice is cold enough to freeze even flames, which we haven't seen yet. Scenario-wise, Ace has the disadvantage. Aokiji is an Admiral and ridicously powerful. Also, Ace's abilities are completely nullified while in the sea. Aokiji can simply stand on any ice he creates and freeze the sea.

Actually he would never be able to even "freeze flames" because you just can't freeze them, they don't inherit any water which makes them unfreeze able =)
His only way to block incoming flames would be, as stated above, to make his ice consume all their energy, at least that's all that I can think of now.