weixiaobao

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Busoshoku Haki granted the user the ability to touch Devil Fruit user's true body but it doesn't cancel out the Devil fruit's effect. So having Busoshoku Haki doesn't meant automatically ownage against Logia users and or having the upper hand against Logia users still because of their Devil Fruit's effect.

With intangibility remove, these Logia DF doesn't really provide a second defense toward its user.
-Caribou, Caesar Clown

Low defense once intangibility is removed.
-Smoker(smokescreen), Borsalino (brightness for distraction), Crocodile (if he could train to absorb just via touching any part of his body), and Monet (chill)

Moderate to high defense
-Ace (burn), Enel (paralysis), Kuzan (freeze), and Akainu (super burn).

In conclusion, even if Akainu isn't a top tier but rather a high tier in physical strength. I don't see too many people can beat him even if they master up to Vergo's level of Busoshoku haki. Recall the battle between Luffy and Magellan. Even if Luffy was able to touch Magellan he still suffered quite the consequence.

Akainu's ability especially seemed to have bypass many high tier's Busoshoku haki defense. I must said Akainu has one of the best defense in One Piece verse combine with mastery of Busoshoku haki and possibly Tekkai.
 

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It doesn't cancel out the effect of the fruit, but it can provide a bit more protection and add to the user's physical ability. Having Busoshoku Haki never meant instant ownage against a Logia user, it just allows you to actually stand a chance against fighting them. I don't think it was ever supposed to give anyone an advantage, just a fighting chance.

With intangibility remove, these Logia DF doesn't really provide a second defense toward its user.
-Caribou, Caesar Clown
I'll give you Caribou, but Ceasar has the ability to steal oxygen from the surrounding area which is a pretty good second defense. As you said, they can just touch the Logia user, not disable their powers.

As for Akainu, I don't really get what you are going for. Not many people can beat Akainu because the dude is freaking strong. Have people been arguing that someone with Vergo's level of haki could beat Akainu? Even if Hardening gave them some sort of immunity towards his magma, he could still just go with regular fisticuffs and beat them down because he most likely can do Hardening as well. Luffy did, but it doesn't seem like those level 6 Prisoners did.
 

weixiaobao

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I'll give you Caribou, but Ceasar has the ability to steal oxygen from the surrounding area which is a pretty good second defense. As you said, they can just touch the Logia user, not disable their powers.
I am talking about pure defense. As in, Luffy punching someone from his mid range attack which he complete avoid the "area."


ave people been arguing that someone with Vergo's level of haki could beat Akainu? Even if Hardening gave them some sort of immunity towards his magma
I am rating his devil fruit power alone in this case. I am wondering how powerful is his devil fruit. If someone like Caribou was to have it, how is haki going to protect someone against magma. The analogy I am think off is wearing heat resistance baking glove and put your hands in the volcano. The gloves doesn't really matter in the long run.

During the Marineford arc, I don't recall Whitebeard make a physical contact beside Akainu blew his face off. Marco and Vista didn't really touch him either. The only person who did was I supposed Ace and Jinbe. Who both were gravely injury. It is difficult to gauge his Devil Fruit power without removing his haki feats however.
====================================================================

UMMM, I apologized for making this thread. Can someone just merged it with http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showthread.php/2992211-haki-and-logia
 
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Something has been bothering me. Akainu is very powerful. Devil Fruit wise yes. But what physical strength does Akainu have. Every kill or attack we have seen with our eyes, considering most are done off screen we saw him take down Squard but not where or how he hit him, has been done by his Magma
Killing Ace
Meteor Volcano
Destroying Jozu's ice boulder
Even stopping Whiteboards direct earthquake was with his Magma.
Etc.
So my question is how strong is Akainu and where is his strength coming from, physically. Does he Conquer's Haki

Discuss in the comments.
 

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Something has been bothering me. Akainu is very powerful. Devil Fruit wise yes. But what physical strength does Akainu have. Every kill or attack we have seen with our eyes, considering most are done off screen we saw him take down Squard but not where or how he hit him, has been done by his Magma
Killing Ace
Meteor Volcano
Destroying Jozu's ice boulder
Even stopping Whiteboards direct earthquake was with his Magma.
Etc.
So my question is how strong is Akainu and where is his strength coming from, physically. Does he Conquer's Haki

Discuss in the comments.
He is actually pretty strong IMO because he could:

Stop a huge iceberg landend by Jaws
Clash with BB hand to hand (even if he used a magma arm he still has to be strong enough to keep pushing an earthquake)
Tank two or more f***** earthquakes with his bare body (Gura gura + haki)
Won a fight against one of strongest logia in the series

If he uses his magma to create bigger limbs he still needs the physical raw power to make the attacks stronger or getting hit and still being able to fight.
 

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I can't recall off the top of my head, but does CoA make the whole user's body vulnerable? EG: If Akainu makes a giant lava fist, is that fist now vulnerable to sufficient CoA? Or is it only his human-shaped body inside the covering of lava? It's pretty nebulous, and I think depends on the Logia itself- Caesar was terrified of seastone bullets being fired randomly in his direction, this seems to suggest that any of the gas that makes up his body is vulnerable, pretty much turning him into a huge target because of his gaseous nature.

The example with Magellan is flawed. The Doku Doku fruit is a paramecia, meaning that Megellan's body never changes, it only produces the the venom. CoA probably wouldn't protect much against his venom, but if Magellan were a Logia user, his flashy 'transformations' would essentially make him into one big target instead of a little tiny target surrounded by a shield of venom.

The more I think about it, the more I feel Logia users are actually more vulnerable than a clever paramecia user. The best example of that I can think of is Trebol's use of his fruit- Luffy fought him under the assumption he was a Logia and nearly lost because he assumed he could damage Trebol's body as long as he hit the mucus.

The big question is, just how "in their element" can a logia user be? If Caribou can totally turn into a 'swamp' and simply seep away into the ground, then that's an awfully good defense against most enemies.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
While I'm at it, I also think a fighter using CoA can only nullify a Logia user's element if their haki is greater than the Logia-user's haki. Ain't nobody nullifying Akainu, not because magma is somehow better/more destructive than anything else, but because his haki is that far above nearly everyone. It's probably the reason Aokiji could fight him equally- it had less to do with their elements and more to do with Akainu having just a bit more haki to keep CoA going for longer. Ace simply had no chance and didn't seem to be versed in CoA at all, which is kinda weird but I digress.
 

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I can't recall off the top of my head, but does CoA make the whole user's body vulnerable? EG: If Akainu makes a giant lava fist, is that fist now vulnerable to sufficient CoA? Or is it only his human-shaped body inside the covering of lava? It's pretty nebulous, and I think depends on the Logia itself- Caesar was terrified of seastone bullets being fired randomly in his direction, this seems to suggest that any of the gas that makes up his body is vulnerable, pretty much turning him into a huge target because of his gaseous nature.
Vergo did said that Smoker turning himself in smoke made him a bigger target.

While I'm at it, I also think a fighter using CoA can only nullify a Logia user's element if their haki is greater than the Logia-user's haki. Ain't nobody nullifying Akainu, not because magma is somehow better/more destructive than anything else, but because his haki is that far above nearly everyone. It's probably the reason Aokiji could fight him equally- it had less to do with their elements and more to do with Akainu having just a bit more haki to keep CoA going for longer. Ace simply had no chance and didn't seem to be versed in CoA at all, which is kinda weird but I digress.
I wouldn't say Ace wasn't well versed in CoA. It's just that his opponent was Akainu.
 
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Armament Haki

Armament Haki is a suit of armour equipped for 2 purpose; to touch the body of a Logia, and to Harden solid objects both to to amplify defensive durability and destructive power.

This attribute of "hardening" makes impossible for Armament Haki to assimilate or complement with some Devil fruit abilities and attacks:
  • Light based attacks :- Hardened Light? Light can't be hard.
  • Fire based attacks :- Fire can't be hard, it's a gas.
  • Smoke based attacks : - Smoke can't be hard, it's a gas.
  • Mero Mero based attacks :- Mero Mero attacks are not solid.
Take not that by saying some abilities don't mix with Armament Haki, one is not implying Logia users for example cannot use Armament Haki. Sabo for example can use Armament Haki, but due to Fire being intangible, it's not possible to mix fire with Armament.

Not only does Armament Haki not complement some attacks, it also overrides any ability that turns the user's body into something that's not absolutely solid, e.g., Sabo's fist is covered in flames, he proceeds to cover his fist in Armament Haki, it returns to human form and then takes on the Armament Haki coating.

Bare in mind that someone like Jozu or Luffy in their forms are still solid, so Armament Haki will work as usual without complications.

How Armament Haki affects Logias

Armament haki can only harden things that are solid, Logia in general are not solid, so when they use haki, they switch back to a tangible form as can be noticed.
To simply put it, Logia can use Armament haki, but not mix it with intangible forms which is why the fist is not a Armament Haki claded fist in Smoker's case, but a fist with Armament Haki.

Occasions a Logias uses Armament Haki

A Logia will only use strictly employ Armament Haki if :- Their ability is not strong enough to deal damage, so a weapon or fist claded in Armament Haki becomes more ideal.
Akainu never used Armament Haki against Whitebeard, why? His ability was still capable of harming (burning) Whitebeard, so there isn't a need for him to switch to Armament Haki over his Magma powers.
Hierarchy: Logia fruit relationship

The different relationships are...
  • Superiority relationship :- This is the instance where 2 Logia DF share similar properties, but one is superior; Magma can quench fire and render fire's ability to burn redundant (being that magma's a semi-liquid), this results in the fire user getting burnt and ultimately losing.
    Only the inferior Logia DF type (Fire) must switch to haki in such a situation to stand a chance.
    Akainu: Did you get careless because you're a Logia type as well? You are merely Fire! I am Magma that consumes Fire!
  • Antagonistic relationship :- Ice nullifies Magma & Magma nullifies Ice; Aokiji and Akainu share such a relationship so it's a battle of attrition. They can both hurt the other without using haki and with their abilities to produce their elements, it's no surprise this battle lasted 10 days.
    No haki would be required.
  • Symbiotic relationship :- This is a relationship between 2 Logia DFs that can't really hurt each other and in a sense are harmonious in the presence of each other; neither can hurt the other.
    Such a fight would require haki or the fight would remain a stalemate indefinitely.
Conclusion

Hierarchy determines how Logia will fight the other; with Armament Haki or without need to rely on Armament Haki. Even in the event that 2 Devil fruits have a symbiotic relationship, or one of superiority, relationship between abilities doesn't determine the superior opponent, it simply determines the limitations as to how one will fight.

The superior opponent will usually have the advantage regardless of even possessing an inferior ability in terms of relationship simply by making use of Haki.
 
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kkck

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Well, as far as akainu against WB. I don't think it makes sense that he wouldn't have used armament haki against him. There is literally no reason to think that. Armament haki is invisible anyways and akainu as lava is rather viscous liquid at worst. There wouldn't be any detrimental effects to him using armament in his attacks. What he in fact did not use was hardening. I honestly doubt a fighter of akainu's level would or could afford to not fight with haki. Haki is not necessarily just for offense, it is also for defense. Why would akainu take haki clad attacks without depending himself with haki?

Haki hardening might compromise a logia's intangibility though that does not mean they actually stop being their element for that matter. Realistically speaking a hardened haki punch from akainu would not be intangible but it would certainly be as hot as his regular lava. So a hardened punch from sabo would basically be hardened fire rather than a normal punch. The issue here is that haki does not deactivate fruit abilities, either yours or others. Of course, that makes absolutely no sense in real world terms. But this isn't the real world.
 

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Haki hardening might compromise a logia's intangibility though that does not mean they actually stop being their element for that matter. Realistically speaking a hardened haki punch from akainu would not be intangible but it would certainly be as hot as his regular lava. So a hardened punch from sabo would basically be hardened fire rather than a normal punch. The issue here is that haki does not deactivate fruit abilities, either yours or others. Of course, that makes absolutely no sense in real world terms. But this isn't the real world.
Wow that makes Smoker that much more nerftacular. Best he could do with a haki-hardened punch (aside from what normally happens with a punch) is give someone a mean cough.
 

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What he in fact did not use was hardening
Doesn't have to be the real world, where have you seen Haki not hardening?

Even the invisible application of Haki hardens things, yet, are insinuating that it doesn't.

Luffy used the invisible application, and what does it do? makes his punch harder.

Boo uses Invisible application, and it's only because Haki hardens things, he's surprised that his weapon breaks.

Sole purpose of Haki is clearly, to harden things.

Liquid or gasses cannot be hardened, it makes no sense at all. Even Smoker who used Haki reverted back to solid form. How exactly did you infer that Akainu at any point, used Armament Haki? would like to see the evidence.

In fact, when Akainu fought Ace, he had his Magma activated, then got attacked by Marco and Vista in which he exclaimed "urghh... Haki users", why would he exclaim that if he was using Haki in the first place? Why would someone currently making use of Haki be annoyed by someone else using Haki. Only makes sense if he wasn't.

It's clearly the price that a Logia pays or most DF users have to pay, a choice between using and not using.

Even Sabo, where has he been shown blending Armament Haki with his flames? If ever there was a time to show an example of Logia using Haki, Sabo would have been the one. In fact, he literally stops using Haki the moment he becomes the Mera Mera no Mi user, so it really does imply it's either Haki or DF ability in the case of Logias.
 

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Doesn't have to be the real world, where have you seen Haki not hardening?

Even the invisible application of Haki hardens things, yet, are insinuating that it doesn't.

Luffy used the invisible application, and what does it do? makes his punch harder.
Boo uses Invisible application, and it's only because Haki hardens things, he's surprised that his weapon breaks.
Sole purpose of Haki is clearly, to harden things.

Liquid or gasses cannot be hardened, it makes no sense at all. Even Smoker who used Haki reverted back to solid form. How exactly did you infer that Akainu at any point, used Armament Haki? would like to see the evidence.

In fact, when Akainu fought Ace, he had his Magma activated, then got attacked by Marco and Vista in which he exclaimed "urghh... Haki users", why would he exclaim that if he was using Haki in the first place? Why would someone currently making use of Haki be annoyed by someone else using Haki. Only makes sense if he wasn't.

It's clearly the price that a Logia pays or most DF users have to pay, a choice between using and not using.
I wouldn't say the invisible application of haki hardens in the way you suggest... The way the basic application of haki has been described is that it covers the user adding defensive and offensive properties. Someone that wears an armor isn't really harder than he would otherwise be. He is just wearing an armor and enjoying the benefits of wearing an armor. This is distinct from haki hardening. Haki hardening is not just an armor, just the color change and name is evidence that haki is being used to harden things themselves rather than merely covering them.

So with that in mind, even if liquid and gas can't be hardened (which I don't think is true in this manga) there is still no reason they can't be covered in haki he same way anything else would. Specially with a logia that would be able to move as a normal human being even though he would be made out of liquid or dust or gas.
 

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wouldn't say the invisible application of haki hardens in the way you suggest... The way the basic application of haki has been described is that it covers the user adding defensive and offensive properties. Someone that wears an armor isn't really harder than he would otherwise be. He is just wearing an armor and enjoying the benefits of wearing an armor. This is distinct from haki hardening. Haki hardening is not just an armor, just the color change and name is evidence that haki is being used to harden things themselves rather than merely covering them.

So with that in mind, even if liquid and gas can't be hardened (which I don't think is true in this manga) there is still no reason they can't be covered in haki he same way anything else would. Specially with a logia that would be able to move as a normal human being even though he would be made out of liquid or dust or gas.
Okay, so where have you seen anyone use the invisible application of Haki not being hard?
 

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Okay, so where have you seen anyone use the invisible application of Haki not being hard?
So... you are asking me if I saw something invisible? Anyways, haki is a generic skill which people far beneath people far beneath admirals can learn and even master. The most reasonable assumption at this point is that all admirals were clad in haki through most of their fights through the war. There is no reason to think they didn't use haki, if anything with people such as them we should assume they were using haki unless there is rather overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Using the basic invisible form of haki has no cons when it comes to logia. Why would akainu think a lava punch is better than a haki clad lava punch? There are no drawbacks in this regard.
 

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So... you are asking me if I saw something invisible? Anyways, haki is a generic skill which people far beneath people far beneath admirals can learn and even master. The most reasonable assumption at this point is that all admirals were clad in haki through most of their fights through the war. There is no reason to think they didn't use haki, if anything with people such as them we should assume they were using haki unless there is rather overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Using the basic invisible form of haki has no cons when it comes to logia. Why would akainu think a lava punch is better than a haki clad lava punch? There are no drawbacks in this regard.
In other words, you have no evidence to support your claim.



Another panel/scene where where Luffy is using the invisible Armament Haki, and what does he say? Not strong enough to protect from sharp objects, only blunt. Another clear allusion to "hardening" or making things harder.

The black Armament is clearly just a progression, a harder form of the invisible Armament.

You can't make claims without supporting them.

Is there even such a thing as a Magma punch with haki? Where's your evidence? We've seen from Smoker, when he used it, it completely negated his Logia form, and back to his base form.

If Armament Haki is clearly the power to harden things, why is Akainu's Magma still dripping? and fluid like?

At no point have we been even told the basic form of Haki has no cons, this is something conjured from speculation for the sake of it, not from evidence or hint. Mere speculating derived from pure assumption. It has no more substance than assuming that Nami is Whitebeard's daughter.
 

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In other words, you have no evidence to support your claim.

Another panel/scene where where Luffy is using the invisible Armament Haki, and what does he say? Not strong enough to protect from sharp objects, only blunt. Another clear allusion to "hardening" or making things harder.

The black Armament is clearly just a progression, a harder form of the invisible Armament.

You can't make claims without supporting them.

Is there even such a thing as a Magma punch with haki? Where's your evidence? We've seen from Smoker, when he used it, it completely negated his Logia form, and back to his base form.

If Armament Haki is clearly the power to harden things, why is Akainu's Magma still dripping? and fluid like?

At no point have we been even told the basic form of Haki has no cons, this is something conjured from speculation for the sake of it, not from evidence or hint. Mere speculating derived from pure assumption. It has no more substance than assuming that Nami is Whitebeard's daughter.
Evidence? What I said is supported by the very concepts as given in the manga. What you are saying is specifically at odds with what the manga has said. Just look at the explanation raileigh gave regarding armament (as in armor) haki. Granted the manga has not gone into too much detail regarding hardening but I don't think our opinions are too different in that regard.

The part about luffy using haki to protect from sharp objects... It does not support your point nor does it stand at odds with what I am saying. All luffy said would be that his invisible haki armor is not enough to prevent hodi from biting through it (yet).

Why do I need to prove there is a haki magma punch? What exactly stops akainu from imbuing his body with haki as he pleases the same way luffy covers his own punches with haki? Or the same way everyone covers whatever they want, including swords and arrows, with haki?

Armament haki is the power to clad yourself in an invisible haki armor. Hardening is the power to make yourself harder. Clearly a more advanced skill but also clearly not literally the same thing. Just look at the explanation Raileigh gave regarding armament haki...
 

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Evidence? What I said is supported by the very concepts as given in the manga. What you are saying is specifically at odds with what the manga has said. Just look at the explanation raileigh gave regarding armament (as in armor) haki. Granted the manga has not gone into too much detail regarding hardening but I don't think our opinions are too different in that regard.

The part about luffy using haki to protect from sharp objects... It does not support your point nor does it stand at odds with what I am saying. All luffy said would be that his invisible haki armor is not enough to prevent hodi from biting through it (yet).

Why do I need to prove there is a haki magma punch? What exactly stops akainu from imbuing his body with haki as he pleases the same way luffy covers his own punches with haki? Or the same way everyone covers whatever they want, including swords and arrows, with haki?

Armament haki is the power to clad yourself in an invisible haki armor. Hardening is the power to make yourself harder. Clearly a more advanced skill but also clearly not literally the same thing. Just look at the explanation Raileigh gave regarding armament haki...
Nope, you're absolutely wrong in that regard, your opinoin here is completely inconsistent with what Rayleigh and the Manga says.

You have no proof of where Armament Haki doesn't harden anything.

First and foremost, Armament Haki is the ability to touch the fluid body of Logias.



Secondly, on the exact same page where Rayleigh is talking about Armament Haki, he progresses to tell us what it does.



He said, the arrows of the Kuja tribe which are merely made of Bamboo, they became like Steel.

How does mere Bamboo become like Steel? By hardening.

Hell, Rayleigh is talking about Haki to a beginner, so why would he be talking about the strongest form of Armament when he can't even use the basic form? If anything, it's the fact both basic and Black form do the same thing, the latter is just harder.



It's undeniable that Luffy is referring to the Hardness of his Haki. In fact, it's scientifically and realistically accurate that a blunt object exerts less pressure than a pointy object. Resistance to pressure is dependant on the hardness of the object the blunt/pointy object is being exerted against. It's completely accurate and consistent with what Luffy is saying, by saying his Haki is not strong enough to protect from Sharp objects, but blunt objects, it clearly implies by strength, he's referring to hardness.

Even the VIZ Manga translatoin, makes the very same assertion, it talks about toughness.



What did Mihawk say to Zoro? He said if his Sword were clade in Armament Haki, it wouldn't have broken. How can something be prevent from breaking? By making it harder.

So, you need to prove that Haki has other properties besides making anything hard, and you've failed to present any evidence to do so. The evidence that it only hardens is overwhelming, and I can't comprehend how and where you perceived that Armament Haki does otherwise.

Why do I need to prove there is a haki magma punch? What exactly stops akainu from imbuing his body with haki as he pleases the same way luffy covers his own punches with haki? Or the same way everyone covers whatever they want, including swords and arrows, with haki?
Simply put, Luffy's body with Rubber is solid, Akainu's isn't. Do you think it's coincidence that Oda uses an image of Akainu when referring to the fluid bodies of a Logia in his Haki explanation?

Solids can be imbued with Haki, fluids, semi-solids and gasses can't. There's no such thing as hard fluid, or hard gas, that's a paradoxical statement.
 

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Nope, you're absolutely wrong in that regard, your opinoin here is completely inconsistent with what Rayleigh and the Manga says.

You have no proof of where Armament Haki doesn't harden anything.

First and foremost, Armament Haki is the ability to touch the fluid body of Logias.

Secondly, on the exact same page where Rayleigh is talking about Armament Haki, he progresses to tell us what it does.

He said, the arrows of the Kuja tribe which are merely made of Bamboo, they became like Steel.

How does mere Bamboo become like Steel? By hardening.

Hell, Rayleigh is talking about Haki to a beginner, so why would he be talking about the strongest form of Armament when he can't even use the basic form? If anything, it's the fact both basic and Black form do the same thing, the latter is just harder.

It's undeniable that Luffy is referring to the Hardness of his Haki. In fact, it's scientifically and realistically accurate that a blunt object exerts less pressure than a pointy object. Resistance to pressure is dependant on the hardness of the object the blunt/pointy object is being exerted against. It's completely accurate and consistent with what Luffy is saying, by saying his Haki is not strong enough to protect from Sharp objects, but blunt objects, it clearly implies by strength, he's referring to hardness.

Even the VIZ Manga translatoin, makes the very same assertion, it talks about toughness.

What did Mihawk say to Zoro? He said if his Sword were clade in Armament Haki, it wouldn't have broken. How can something be prevent from breaking? By making it harder.

So, you need to prove that Haki has other properties besides making anything hard, and you've failed to present any evidence to do so. The evidence that it only hardens is overwhelming, and I can't comprehend how and where you perceived that Armament Haki does otherwise.

Simply put, Luffy's body with Rubber is solid, Akainu's isn't. Do you think it's coincidence that Oda uses an image of Akainu when referring to the fluid bodies of a Logia in his Haki explanation?

Solids can be imbued with Haki, fluids, semi-solids and gasses can't. There's no such thing as hard fluid, or hard gas, that's a paradoxical statement
My point here is that haki working as an armor results in things appearing harder. In that regard none of the examples you pasted really counter what I am saying. Of course all those things appear much more resistant, they are being covered by haki, those are examples of generic haki doing exactly what I suggest it is doing.

There is no reason for us to think there is a limit as to what exactly can be imbued with haki. Why would anyone be unable to imbue haki into liquids? Is it impossible that say, jinbe, can imbue haki into his fishman karate attacks? Fishman karate does not even require haki as far as we know and it can throw water with enough force to break through walls. Why would someone able to do that not be able to imbue it with haki for extra force?

Of course the whole thing is paradoxical which is why I made the point that real life logic did not apply. Take akainu for instance. If the logic you are suggesting applied then to begin with akainu would simply be a blob of magma unable to do anything to begin with. However he can have a human shape and even move around as a normal person in spite of being made out of manga. He is able to use an actual magma fist which he can use to punch stuff. There is absolutely no reason for us to think that akainu has not been fighting the same way as everyone else when it comes to haki. Haki is generated by the user's spirit and whatnot and they wear it over their body. Akainu's magma fist is as much his body as any other fruit user's limbs are their own. Of course, if he hardens the fist it would be a rather solid magma fist which wouldn't be too fluid. Same as we saw with smoker when he used hardening.
 

Hannibal Psyche

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My point here is that haki working as an armor results in things appearing harder. In that regard none of the examples you pasted really counter what I am saying. Of course all those things appear much more resistant, they are being covered by haki, those are examples of generic haki doing exactly what I suggest it is doing.

There is no reason for us to think there is a limit as to what exactly can be imbued with haki. Why would anyone be unable to imbue haki into liquids? Is it impossible that say, jinbe, can imbue haki into his fishman karate attacks? Fishman karate does not even require haki as far as we know and it can throw water with enough force to break through walls. Why would someone able to do that not be able to imbue it with haki for extra force?

Of course the whole thing is paradoxical which is why I made the point that real life logic did not apply. Take akainu for instance. If the logic you are suggesting applied then to begin with akainu would simply be a blob of magma unable to do anything to begin with. However he can have a human shape and even move around as a normal person in spite of being made out of manga. He is able to use an actual magma fist which he can use to punch stuff. There is absolutely no reason for us to think that akainu has not been fighting the same way as everyone else when it comes to haki. Haki is generated by the user's spirit and whatnot and they wear it over their body. Akainu's magma fist is as much his body as any other fruit user's limbs are their own. Of course, if he hardens the fist it would be a rather solid magma fist which wouldn't be too fluid. Same as we saw with smoker when he used hardening.
Actually, you are wrong, you just dismissed all the facts to retain a stance you can't remotely defend with anything from the Manga.



Why isn't Smoker's fist Smoke, his fist is clearly a fist, everything else is Smoke.

And you're distorting the rationale, DF users can control their DFs as they please.

Hell, look at Smoker. Back in Logue Town where he wasn't even capable of using Haki, he could still have shape and form, you're wrong in this respect, as in your analysis of Armament Haki being, it lacks any consistency.

Entitled to your opinion, but if you can't even defend it with evidence, it's not entertainable or the least bit convincing.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
those are examples of generic haki doing exactly what I suggest it is doing.
Armament haki is the power to clad yourself in an invisible haki armor. Hardening is the power to make yourself harder.
That is false though. Where has it been said or portrayed in the Manga, that the Invisible Haki isn't hard too?
--- Double Post Merged, ---
If the logic you are suggesting applied then to begin with akainu would simply be a blob of magma unable to do anything to begin with.
As I stated before, this is a fallacy.

Crocodile has no ability to use Haki, yet, he's very well capable of forming shapes with his ability. Just because Akainu doesn't just flow all the time, doesn't mean Crocodile should turn to sand and be unable to do a thing. The ability to mould and shape one's element is merely a basic skill.



Great example would be Smoker taking punches from Luffy in Logue Town, Luffy punched him and realized his body was still very much Smoke. So, even though he appears solid which is what you're insinuating is the case when Logias have form or shape, they're still very much liquid/gas even in state.

However, you still have no evidence that shows anything that's not solid to begin with, being clade with Armament Haki, or retaining it's properties.

Smoker's fist when clade in Haki stopped becoming Smoke, everything you've mentioned thus far is literally an antithesis to everything implied in the Manga, and more questionable, without a scintilla of evidence to support it, but mere assumption.
--- Double Post Merged, ---
Not much of a digression here, but take Enel, he's the ONLY character so far whose Observation range is exponentially increased, and why? simply because he's Electricity. Enel's range covered an entire Island, Kizaru arrived in Sabaody and couldn't even find Sentomaru despite being an Admiral.

What does that prove? It proves that Haki can complement some abilities, and not others. It's not because Enel is significantly gifted in Observation Haki, but simply affinity between DF and Observation. More or less, it's a combination or mixing of Electricity and Observation.

If we can see such relation in Observation Haki, it's fair to assume there will be abilities that share this property with Electric DF, and we're still yet to see anyone replicate this feat.

With that said, there's no reason why some abilities wouldn't have limitations to Armament Haki either, and that's very much the case here based on all the evidence and visual observations thus far. Even Joker was surprised by Luffy's ability to retain elasticity with Armament Haki, because it hardens, but we see Rubber and Haki have an affinity with each other.

Chances are, we won't see another character able to replicate such a feat, maybe Kid since his powers do have something related with electro magnetics, but that's a guess at this point.
 

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Actually, you are wrong, you just dismissed all the facts to retain a stance you can't remotely defend with anything from the Manga.

Why isn't Smoker's fist Smoke, his fist is clearly a fist, everything else is Smoke.

And you're distorting the rationale, DF users can control their DFs as they please.

Hell, look at Smoker. Back in Logue Town where he wasn't even capable of using Haki, he could still have shape and form, you're wrong in this respect, as in your analysis of Armament Haki being, it lacks any consistency.

Entitled to your opinion, but if you can't even defend it with evidence, it's not entertainable or the least bit convincing.

That is false though. Where has it been said or portrayed in the Manga, that the Invisible Haki isn't hard too?
Well, yeah, his fist is a fist. But it is also smoke. I don't see how that contradicts what I am saying. It is the same thing as when akainu uses a gigantic lava fist. Logia users don't stop being their element just because they look solid, that is not how it works. Logia users are their element at all times. Even when they do not look like that. And with that in mind, just because something looks like an element does not mean it is not a logia's body. Take the time smoker fought vergo. Vergo made the point that when smoker used his ability he was giving vergo more places to hit him. Or the time ceasar was gas and luffy used haki to grab him. Luffy grabbed what seemed to be gas but it was ceasar's torso or something.

I did not suggest haki was what gave fruit users to shape their abilities. Of course they can do that. You completely missed my point My point specifically requires that logia are able to do that if anything. Which is why akainu has hill sized lava fists for instance. It is a liquid but it is also a thing he can control and do as he pleases. More so, that fist is certainly an part of his actual body. Which is why there is no reason he can't imbue it with haki as any other part of his body.

You say I am not using evidence but you are not even the definitions given in the manga... Armament haki being like an armor is a fact at this point. It is the literal description it has been given.
cnet said:
Next, we have "Armament Haki". This shade...
Luffy: Aahh...!
Rayleigh: ...is something like wearing an invisible suit of armour...
 
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