American Politics

[M3J]

Democrats need to give the entire party a major overhaul otherwise they'll fuck themselves in the ass if someone slightly more competent than Trump comes along. Republicans would have to majorly fuck up (which is likely) for dems to have a chance, especially with how Hillary and her cronies fucked everything up.

 

[xi0]

The whole concept of EC voters colluding with one another to prevent Trump from getting to the inauguration is sort of a reckless and dangerous thought in my eyes. The ramifications of such a thing could be potentially terrible...

 

[kkck]

The whole concept of EC voters colluding with one another to prevent Trump from getting to the inauguration is sort of a reckless and dangerous thought in my eyes. The ramifications of such a thing could be potentially terrible...

I agree with that in general (and it is entirely possible that the benefit would be only marginally beneficial). But that only leaves the question, what is the purpose of the electoral college?

The literal purpose of the electoral is to prevent someone who is unqualified from being president. So we have this:

1.- Trump lost the popular vote with a fairly big margin.
2.- It is fair to say most US citizens think trump is unqualified and unfit for office. Even his party thinks that to a large extent but runs with it due to partisan mumbo jumbo.
3.- Trump ran an overtly racist campaign. Not to mention many of the things he has said being blatantly unamerican.
4.- He has not even begin his term and has already backed away from several of his most important campaign promises.
5.- He has given a voice to white supremacist in the white house.
6.- He has promised policy specifically to target muslims....

IF there ever was a moment for the electoral college to do the literal job it was created for it is now. I agree in that the electoral college using this power to reject trump could cause some serious damage but this is a "you had one job" scenario. If the electoral college does not do this, "it's one job", then it is an institution which literally serves no purpose and likely never will. All that would have happened is that people voted, chose their candidate, and an obsolete and purposeless system denied the people their vote. There is just nothing salvageable about the institution, it just exist to mock and harm US people.

 

[shionoro]

I mean, you cannot on the one hand say that electorial votes, not popular votes matter, and then say the electorials should have no own mind.

 

[xi0]

I mean, you cannot on the one hand say that electorial votes, not popular votes matter, and then say the electorials should have no own mind.

I mean, yeah you sort of can. The US itself is still a federal coalition of state governments. The popular vote is the deciding factor within the state, but not nationally. Electors exist in the number they do due to the number of Representatives each state has (which is proportional to population) plus 2 (for each senator a state has), and then 3 for Washington DC due to the 23rd Amendment. The argument for the EC is one that smaller states should not be treated with less regard than smaller portions of larger states when it comes to things like this. Basically a case against urban-focused politics, which is kind of awkward in a country as large as it.

The constitutionality of an elector abstaining from voting has been ruled on by the Supreme Court in a favorable way so there is precedence there. But they have not ruled on whether an elector can be punished for voting against what they're there to do. Many states have laws for it, but it has never been brought before judicial review.

The main thing I'm saying here is that if this was something that was to happen, it could result in a variety of terrible things. Now, I do understand that the same could be said about a Trump presidency, but I guess you'd have to pick your poison there. In any case, I don't really think it has much of a chance of happening. People would have to collaborate to abstain from voting, and if this happens the decision would go to a joint session of Congress. And who controls Congress? So yeah...

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 7, 2016, Original Post Date: Dec 7, 2016 ---

IF there ever was a moment for the electoral college to do the literal job it was created for it is now. I agree in that the electoral college using this power to reject trump could cause some serious damage but this is a "you had one job" scenario. If the electoral college does not do this, "it's one job", then it is an institution which literally serves no purpose and likely never will. All that would have happened is that people voted, chose their candidate, and an obsolete and purposeless system denied the people their vote. There is just nothing salvageable about the institution, it just exist to mock and harm US people.

I think it was you who brought up Trump saying the system needing to be changed, right? Well, what hasn't he said really. But I'm sort of in the "mend, don't end" camp. Removing it would require an act of Cthulhu, as it's existence is rooted in state's rights issues as well.

 

[kkck]

I think it was you who brought up Trump saying the system needing to be changed, right? Well, what hasn't he said really. But I'm sort of in the "mend, don't end" camp. Removing it would require an act of Cthulhu, as it's existence is rooted in state's rights issues as well.

I am not sure of what of the things I have said here you mean lol. In any case, I don't recall trump saying anything about changing the electoral college. I doubt he would considering that if he questions the electoral college then he also questions his own claim at the presidency. In any case, what I wanted to focus on here was how the electoral college actually can't do it's one job. The electoral college right now essentially functions as a gun without bullets. I know how much of an insurmountable task it would be to remove it but that doesn't change how useless it is right now. And it doesn't help that removing it would mean the end of the republican party and they are well aware of that (I recall reading about how they have lost the popular vote in 6 out of 7 elections in the past 20 years or something).

How would you mend this though? Even if you change it so that it reflects the popular vote a tad more it doesn't change how useless it is.

 

[M3J]

I'm curious. so far what has Trump done that's hurting the Muslims?

 

[GrySun]

I'm curious. so far what has Trump done that's hurting the Muslims?

He's not president yet now, is he?

 

[Onyx Darkmatter]

I'm curious. so far what has Trump done that's hurting the Muslims?

None so far, but if his policies goes through, then that's where things will start.

 

[Styx]

I find it hilarious so many people were for the electoral vote when it was in favor of Hillary, but the moment she loses it people lose their shit. We have the electoral vote for a reason so that there is equal representation across states.

I'm curious. so far what has Trump done that's hurting the Muslims?

Nothing, and he won't do anything to them when he's president either. It was fearmongering that gave birth to false accusations of mass genocide of Muslims or the removal of them. A complete twisting of words and lack of interest in context, too.

 

[Aonori]

I find it hilarious so many people were for the electoral vote when it was in favor of Hillary, but the moment she loses it people lose their shit. We have the electoral vote for a reason so that there is equal representation across states.



Nothing, and he won't do anything to them when he's president either. It was fearmongering that gave birth to false accusations of mass genocide of Muslims or the removal of them. A complete twisting of words and lack of interest in context, too.

Yeah, I cant even believe 3 million Illegal imigrants got to vote for this election, or that whole voting with dead people for the matter here, actually got through, what would people think it would happen if the electoral vote would be taken down, for solely the popular one? It would be a bigger mess, even the recount is proving Trump´s advantage against Hillary anyways, so it´s just another waste of time.

Well he will do things to the radical muslims and freedom fighters waiting for their shipment of weapons in the Middle East, like firing the guys responsible for delivering the shipments to them and arrange better deals and people to get those (like taiwan)...

Also the amount of deals he´s getting done now is crazy I hope he keeps this up after taking office and doesnt stop, with the dealings.

 

[Onyx Darkmatter]

There's no solid evidence that 3 million Illegal Immigrants voted, unless we're taking Infowars as a credible site. Not sure about the whole dead people votes (I think I've heard about that during the primaries, but that was it).

 

[Aonori]

There's no solid evidence that 3 million Illegal Immigrants voted, unless we're taking Infowars as a credible site. Not sure about the whole dead people votes (I think I've heard about that during the primaries, but that was it).

The voting system had it´s problems though, but yes, it´s not plausible for us to know at this point, a more precise estimate number of the ilegal immigrants, votes, but assuming they followed obama´s advice and voted, Hillary got at least a few hundred thousand illegals voting for her.

Dead people voting and people voting in more than one state, America needs to serious solve some voting problems before anybody they can even think about abolishing the electoral voting system.

 

[shionoro]

I find it hilarious so many people were for the electoral vote when it was in favor of Hillary, but the moment she loses it people lose their shit. We have the electoral vote for a reason so that there is equal representation across states.



Nothing, and he won't do anything to them when he's president either. It was fearmongering that gave birth to false accusations of mass genocide of Muslims or the removal of them. A complete twisting of words and lack of interest in context, too.

That is completely untrue.
Because he already did. Fearmongering about a group of your own people and openly advocating a registry for them is naturally goign to hurt them, because they live in a country where a lot of people believe that fearmongering that took place.

By the way, how do you stand to this:

http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/7/1...ichael-flynn-fired-hillary-clinton-conspiracy
http://www.salon.com/2016/12/07/twi...-theory-that-led-gunman-into-comet-ping-pong/

That is one of the conspiracy theories (and at that one of the mos toutlandish ones) that you believed openly. Now, suddenly it is obviously a lie since trump fires the guy from his team (seems this is one of the topics where 'it has not been debunked yet' does not fly).
And a confused gunman believes this shit, just like you did, and goes into a pizzeria armed.

Those are things trump and his team and supporters directly caused, because obviously they used this nonsense to the utmost to win the election (and not only that).

They did the same with the stories about muslims dancing in the streets after 9/11.
When complete fabrications can make a man raid a pizzeria, you honestly wanna tell me that invented stories about muslims celebrating 9/11 don't hurt muslim americans?

 

[Styx]

Yeah, I cant even believe Illegal imigrants got to vote for this election, or that whole voting with dead people for the matter here, what would people think it would happen if the electoral vote would be taken down, for solely the popular one? It would be a bigger mess.

Forget about fraudulent voting for a moment (in which the Liberals denies exists). In what world would it be right that a state with the population size of California and New York alone decide the future of the entire country (e.i, their word meaning more than half or most of the country)?

Regardless though we have the Electoral college so that states can be assured their voice weighs as much as a giant ass state like Cali or whatnot. There is a reason our founding fathers were afraid of a direct democracy. The inherent dangers it brings is astounding, especially if the mob rule in charge are uninformed when they vote. A direct democracy can be invaded by populists etc which in the end squashes the little guy/minority and destroys a country.

Our founding fathers specifically choice a way of [mixed] government that stayed away from direct democracy (Tyranny of the Majority anyone?). We are not a Democracy. We never were meant to be, never have and never will be nor should we ever become a direct democracy. The Constitution points it out that "The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and on application of the legislature, or of the executive (when the legislature cannot be convened) against domestic violence." (Article IV Section 4).

Living in a Republic we do not honor mob rule nor the louder voice, but give every single voice strength and importance. Hence the electoral college. Right now we have equal representation in Congress, without the EV, we do not and are subjected to direct democracy and mob rule—all of which our country (and our founding fathers) has stood against.

There's no solid evidence that 3 million Illegal Immigrants voted, unless we're taking Infowars as a credible site. Not sure about the whole dead people votes (I think I've heard about that during the primaries, but that was it).

First of all, I just want to say that illegal immigrants voting is not the only voter fraud out there and not the only fraud Trump and his supporters are trying to get media highlight. It is just one part of the big problem, such as dead people voting or people voting multiple times. Or not being asked for proper identification and proof of citizenship when they vote.

Anyways, Public Interest Legal Foundation and Virginia Voters Alliance discovered illegal voting in Virginia of a little over 1,000, and that was through a small sample from counties that responded to their request. There was incidents of voter fraud in New Hampshire and other states too. Other voter watch groups, such as Bev Harris's site or True the Vote, also found evidence of mass illegal voting this election and past elections. True the Vote is where this claim of 3 million illegal votes is coming from, but I don't think the claims ever specifically stated all of them were made by illegal immigrants, just that they were illegal in some way (and was pro-Democratic at large).

Beyond voter fraud watch groups and whatnot, this may interest you. While it does not prove that 3 million illegal immigrnats are voting it reveals something that a large part of this country wishes to think doesn't even exist.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/document-archive/non-citizensvote/

 

[xi0]

How would you mend this though? Even if you change it so that it reflects the popular vote a tad more it doesn't change how useless it is.

You're acting like it's "one job" is to prevent someone undesirable from being inaugurated. This sort of failsafe is not really the sole reason it exists, so to say that it's useless and doesn't do anything is a bit myopic IMO. Plus, in order for it to functionally prevent Trump from taking office, the GOP would need to distance itself from him as well, and this didn't happen to the extent it needed to during the campaign, so I don't see how it would happen now.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
In this sort of scenario it would probably play out like this

- Enough electors abstain from voting to where Trump doesn't have enough votes to secure victory
- A joint session of congress is convened in which a delegation of representatives and senators (from all parties, mind you) from each state must choose to vote together with a SINGLE vote, 26 votes is required for a President-elect to be chosen
- Only those who received electoral votes are eligible, so the only alternative to electing Trump is Clinton. I just don't see how 26 state delegations go for her over Trump

I guess there is the possibility that an elector votes for someone other than Trump or Clinton in order for them to be eligible to be elected by a joint session of congress, but the electors doing such a thing would almost certainly be challenged in court and would likely go all the way to the Supreme Court. Like I mentioned before, there is only a legal precedent for abstention. The country would go a long time without a sitting executive branch. Not to mention the sort of economical instability, insurrection and anarchy this would potentially cause.

So yeah, the Electoral College can and probably should be changed, but I think it seems really reckless to go about it in this manner.

 

[Aonori]

First of all, I just want to say that illegal immigrants voting is not the only voter fraud out there and not the only fraud Trump and his supporters are trying to get media highlight. It is just one part of the big problem, such as dead people voting or people voting multiple times. Or not being asked for proper identification and proof of citizenship when they vote.

Anyways, Public Interest Legal Foundation and Virginia Voters Alliance discovered illegal voting in Virginia of a little over 1,000, and that was through a small sample from counties that responded to their request. There was incidents of voter fraud in New Hampshire and other states too. Other voter watch groups, such as Bev Harris's site or True the Vote, also found evidence of mass illegal voting this election and past elections. True the Vote is where this claim of 3 million illegal votes is coming from, but I don't think the claims ever specifically stated all of them were made by illegal immigrants, just that they were illegal in some way (and was pro-Democratic at large).

Beyond voter fraud watch groups and whatnot, this may interest you. While it does not prove that 3 million illegal immigrnats are voting it reveals something that a large part of this country wishes to think doesn't even exist.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/document-archive/non-citizensvote/

Yes, that is the main problem in my eyes, why doing all this recount stuff then the voting itself isnt properly regulated? Dead people voting, illegals and people voting outsider of their states are a direct consequence of people not being asked for proper identification, or proof of citizenship when they vote, this should´ve been fixed a long time ago.

 

[Styx]

That is completely untrue.
Because he already did. Fearmongering about a group of your own people and openly advocating a registry for them is naturally goign to hurt them, because they live in a country where a lot of people believe that fearmongering that took place.

Because you say so? Yup.

This is the part where context plays a key role in understanding what Trump meant. He never once said "all Muslims" and never once said that he would punish Muslims in the U.S. He explained when he was asked about terrorists and refugees (after the Paris attack etc) what he would do. He said he would temporary ban Muslim refugees from key problematic Islamic states. He even came out several times after to clarify what he meant because MSM kept twisting his words.

Also, stop spreading your lies. Trump never advocated a registry. He said when asked about one:

"We’re going to have to look at a lot of things very closely. We’re going to have to look at the mosques. We’re going to have to look very, very carefully."

He never once advocated a registry on Muslims. The rest of the interview was discussing the wall and immigrants being able to be tracked, recorded and apprehended if they did something wrong. The confusion was due to the reporter switching subjects quick. That's why when the reporter asked about the Wall he said it is something they have to implement and that a database for them is required. Even a site you provided before (politifact) and is frequently provided here says that the interview was largely mistaken/unclear and that Trump was very well talking about immigration in the first interview due to the question jumping, which if you go by context that makes perfect sense. They later go on to direct all instances in which he spoke about this and tried to explain his stance (and was promptly ignored).

The only thing he remotely came close to saying was that he supported a database and surveillance on [Syrian] refugees coming from key problematic states that brought terrorism or crime to many different countries. Of which I have to wonder how the hell you could get "all Muslims" or "Muslim citizens" from it, but then again the MSM gets to everybody with their bullshit so it is really no wonder.

By the way, how do you stand to this:

http://www.theverge.com/2016/12/7/1...ichael-flynn-fired-hillary-clinton-conspiracy
http://www.salon.com/2016/12/07/twi...-theory-that-led-gunman-into-comet-ping-pong/

That is one of the conspiracy theories (and at that one of the mos toutlandish ones) that you believed openly. Now, suddenly it is obviously a lie since trump fires the guy from his team (seems this is one of the topics where 'it has not been debunked yet' does not fly).
And a confused gunman believes this shit, just like you did, and goes into a pizzeria armed.

Those are things trump and his team and supporters directly caused, because obviously they used this nonsense to the utmost to win the election (and not only that).

They did the same with the stories about muslims dancing in the streets after 9/11.
When complete fabrications can make a man raid a pizzeria, you honestly wanna tell me that invented stories about muslims celebrating 9/11 don't hurt muslim americans?

Are you seriously going to hold the actions of an obvious unstable man against me and then compare us and condemn a group of people at large? All because one person reacted violently on a shared view? Jesus Christ, what's wrong with you?

I'm just going to ignore the sheer stupidity of this and I'm not even going to waste my time about the 9/11 Muslim bullshit you brought up out of no where.

Yes, that is the main problem in my eyes, why doing all this recount stuff then the voting itself isnt properly regulated? Dead people voting, illegals and people voting outsider of their states are a direct consequence of people not being asked for proper identification, or proof of citizenship when they vote, this should´ve been fixed a long time ago.

When we have states like California pushing for the removal or weakening of voter I.D laws (and ignoring illegal status by giving them drivers licenses) it makes perfect sense why it is being ignored. Because it falls in their favor.

Make no mistake though, the Republicans would be doing the same thing if they had huge support from fraudulent voting if it was hard to record and report.

EDIT

WOW. ahaha the posts got so screwed up.

 

[Onyx Darkmatter]

The voting system had it´s problems though, but yes, it´s not plausible for us to know at this point, a more precise estimate number of the ilegal immigrants, votes, but assuming they followed obama´s advice and voted, Hillary got at least a few hundred thousand illegals voting for her.

Dead people voting and people voting in more than one state, America needs to serious solve some voting problems before anybody they can even think about abolishing the electoral voting system.

I'm not doubting that there are illegal immigrants who voted in the Election, but even if Hillary got at least a few hundreds of thousands of them, Hillary is still on the lead in Popular Vote even if you excluded them.

But yes, I do have to agree that the voting system is a bit messy and needs to be resolved.

First of all, I just want to say that illegal immigrants voting is not the only voter fraud out there and not the only fraud Trump and his supporters are trying to get media highlight. It is just one part of the big problem, such as dead people voting or people voting multiple times. Or not being asked for proper identification and proof of citizenship when they vote.

Anyways, Public Interest Legal Foundation and Virginia Voters Alliance discovered illegal voting in Virginia of a little over 1,000, and that was through a small sample from counties that responded to their request. There was incidents of voter fraud in New Hampshire and other states too. Other voter watch groups, such as Bev Harris's site or True the Vote, also found evidence of mass illegal voting this election and past elections. True the Vote is where this claim of 3 million illegal votes is coming from, but I don't think the claims ever specifically stated all of them were made by illegal immigrants, just that they were illegal in some way (and was pro-Democratic at large).

Beyond voter fraud watch groups and whatnot, this may interest you. While it does not prove that 3 million illegal immigrnats are voting it reveals something that a large part of this country wishes to think doesn't even exist.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/document-archive/non-citizensvote/

Well, yeah, I'm not going to doubt that there are other types of voter frauds going on in other states. I'm just saying that the claim that 3 million illegals voted seems like a Bullshit claim.
But if it was a compilation where it's actually 3 million Votes were Fraud, then that *may* be possible since it's not talking about a single category.

TBH, I'm feeling a bit tired to read that article, but I'll see what it says tomorrow.

 

[Styx]

Well, yeah, I'm not going to doubt that there are other types of voter frauds going on in other states. I'm just saying that the claim that 3 million illegals voted seems like a Bullshit claim. But if it was a compilation where it's actually 3 million Votes were Fraud, then that *may* be possible since it's not talking about a single category.

TBH, I'm feeling a bit tired to read that article, but I'll see what it says tomorrow.

Yea, I agree that the claim that 3 million illegal immigrants voting is currently a very bsy thing to claim right now, it seems far more plausible/reasonable if we are just talking about illegal votes at all. If those voter fraud watch groups actually found evidence of 3 million illegal immigrants voting, especially in large for one party, I think we would see more of it from them and other watch groups, because that would be a huge sign that laws aren't be enforced or are ignored in order to turn the tides of the election.

Okay, that's understandable man. Definitely not worth reading while tired. If you get the time to read it though, I'd be interested in knowing what you think of it. (: