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Oh.
New trend is born?
Sure I do, but there are people that don't. Debate isn't for the debaters, it's for the audiences that haven't made their minds yet. And punching left doesn't lose elections. The left couldn't have fixed this election.I think your reaction to the latter is all that matters really. You know those people are wrong and tilting at windmills. To extrapolate that, punching Left loses Democrats elections. Yet Destiny and yourself still think otherwise.
Oh?That's dishonest framing.
shionoro said:The way you phrased it highlights the way of thinking i outlined above. Homelessness is fine as long as it is "checked", as in, as long as the middle class is not bothered by it.
Me pointing out that him defining the Liberal stance as "Homelessness is fine" and "Liberals don't care about homeless people, they care about not having to see homeless people" was accurate. Not even hyperbolic, and is a far cry from "they are more concerned about getting elected than ending homelessness." I gave him the benefit of the doubt like you're doing here by claiming he was only referring to politicians and not Liberals in general, and he doubled down here:shionoro said:There is no real moral backbone behind that. The actual core of this, and of the liberal and moderate dem mindset, is that they want politics that make the educated middle class comfortable. So the core aim is not to end homelessness, the core aim is to get the homeless out of sight in a somewhat humane enough way so no liberal has to feel like he put his needs over the needs of the poor.
Not just Democrat politicians, but Democratic voters, including myself.shionoro said:But you claimed that the deeds of democrat politicians is just follwing what their voters want. And I do say that about both. both politicians and many inhabitants (including you) follow that logic.
Of course, but those people were already attacking him for his bisexuality beforehand. I was just emphasizing that him fucking White Nationalist Lauren Southern doesn't hurt him the way "Sextape of Destiny blowing White Nationalist Nick Fuentes" does. And last time I checked, M3J wasn't a Conservative... so why is he so proud of the scathing shaming that comes with pointing out Destiny's committing gay sex acts? "No bad tactics. Only bad people."The vast majority of people I've seen online are MAGAtards mocking him for gay shit, anyone else that dislikes Destiny is doing it because it's Nick fucking Fuentes. Destiny isn't some redpilled super masculine straight dude outing himself as gay.
Destiny is called gusano by Hasan's community because Hasan used it against him on stream, because he thought he could get away with using a Cuban racial slur since it was being used against a guy who says the N-word in private. "No bad tactics. Only bad people."Signal boosting "gusano"? Not sure I even know what that means. Mocking Buttigieg's name as being homophobic is kind of eyerolling to me personally idk.
Hey, I clarified that it's only "some Leftists", which is more than you did for Conseveratives. And I bring it up in the same breath as rebuking of Hasan because Hasan still retweets him and goes over his videos on stream. "No bad tactics. Only bad people."The last point however is just the least charitable thing you could possible say. "Getting off at the deaths of Israeli civilians"?? To me this is just transposing some maniac on twitter onto Hasan. I've never seen him do anything of the sort.
I guess I don't know what you're asking me then. Honestly. You're asking me what Republicans are doing "wrong" while pointing out successes they've made. I don't know what the implication is here.That is not what they mostly ran on this time, is it? They ran on shutting down the border, tarifs, helping the economy, lowering prices, cut climate funds, ending ukraine war and no abortion ban. What is wrong with that? Of course they are framing things their way when they propose these issues, but so do democrats.
These are two different things. I can know what the problems of doing a certain thing is, without knowing what alternatives are possible, or being used deal with these problems.But you said you dont know anything about what is actually done about homelessness and you seem to not know a lot about the issue in itself. If that is recipe for catastrophe, how can you then have a decisive stance about dems not being able to do more?
That is what I said yes. And the "Housing First Programs" section includes fixing the problems that just giving them a house would cause. It mentions both mental health counseling and job training.You made the assertion that Democrats cannot take bold steps against homelessness. Or did you not? Your list admittedly shocked me a little, as you just cited some things that a homeless first policy should include (for example adressing underlying issues) and then the list advocated for housing first, the very thing I am for. Then you said "there ya go", but my problem was exactly that these things were not done.
Okay, sure. All that's bad. Sounds like a Democrat did the thing I've been yelling at you for advocating for: giving people houses, but not fixing the problems that made them homeless in the first place. Dunno why we're fighting over something we agree about. But once again, this is a problem with a politician, not with voters.So what Newsom did here was to promise housing first when he felt it was popular. Then he did it in a way that made construction companies and the industry happy (building stuff) but without the actual hard work that is fighting the core issues (which is how they did in successfully in Finland and what housing first actually means). He then, when his own policy failed partially for that reason, do a 180 and help to tear down tent cities.
You're right: this is an example of Democrat politicians acting to get elected and thus, not a demonstration of Liberal voters not caring about ending homelessness.Can you really defend that? If not, isn't that a great example of democrats not actually fighting against homelessness but just use that issue for votes as they see fit?
You don't have to watch them if you don't want to know the context of the argument.But why do I have to watch these? What compels me to do that? I think it is bad style to just put a video and require other people to watch it instead of summarizing the point and arguing it yourself. You did the work with the timestamps, but that cannot replace a summary.
Dems are cowards, that's why. Trump has pardoned tons of horrible people, and Dems can use that as ammunition as well. Plus, Trump's probably going to give Dems ammunition after ammunition, though Dems don't seem to use them.And biden just pardoned hunter... Imagine that. Republicans are going to ride that one for months and democrats won't even have a way to fight back. Not that they would if they even knew how.
...so... so then you are a bigot. "I don't hate people except for the people I hate" doesn't make you not a bigot. I can understand hating Conservatism: I hate it too. But I can't hate Conservatives anymore than I can hate Theists.You have me confused with Destiny, I am not a bigot (other than hating conservatives).
I don't remember anyone ever posting any links of Liberals wishing for the deaths of Palestinians in here. And I don't think expecting things to get worse in Gaza is an example of hatred for Gazans. I think it's foresight.Yet you seem to have no issue with libs wishing and telling Palestinians that Gaza will be razed to the ground, and Palestinians there will burn after Harris lost. You yourself seem to be more than okay with Palestinians being killed.
Yeah that's exactly what happened.You also seem to be okay with rape because you have no problem with blaming the victims instead of the men who make the choice to assault and rape.
Good.And biden just pardoned hunter... Imagine that.
Because you said that democracy is about catering to fleeting majority opinions. In that case, republicans are doing that really well, at least they did in the 2024 election. Why did you even put so much effort into supporting democrats then?I guess I don't know what you're asking me then. Honestly. You're asking me what Republicans are doing "wrong" while pointing out successes they've made. I don't know what the implication is here.
But the point remains the same. Commit to housing first and you are not going to need to send the police to drag them off their tents. But that is not what democrats do, is it? And that brings us to my original point, that democrats are NOT committing on the policies that would end homelessness. They are committing onto policies that keep the homeless out of sight, just like republicans do, but they are trying to be nicer about it.That is what I said yes. And the "Housing First Programs" section includes fixing the problems that just giving them a house would cause. It mentions both mental health counseling and job training.
And if that's your actual point, you should've never said "Give homeless people houses and they wouldn't be homeless" as if that was some super obvious way to solve homelessness.
It is a general problem, as voters are getting angry at the homeless for problems Newsom created. And Newsom and Democrats in turn react to these angry voters by also blaming the homeless. They work in tandem here, agianst the homeless. And what I said in my original post also still is true. The liberal voters are fine as long as homelessness is out of sight. They are not going to push for a housing first policy or defend it if they think that this is going against their interests (for example, if there are too many homeless on street). If that happens, they are going to call for restrictive measures, no matter whether the real fault lies with an inept politician. And that is what differentiates them from leftists, who are not going to blame underprivileged groups for the problems that their poverty brings. Instead, they will keep fighting for these groups. And liberals won't, politician or average joe.Okay, sure. All that's bad. Sounds like a Democrat did the thing I've been yelling at you for advocating for: giving people houses, but not fixing the problems that made them homeless in the first place. Dunno why we're fighting over something we agree about. But once again, this is a problem with a politician, not with voters.
That makes no sense. Hating a group of bigoted people makes me a bigot? K then....so... so then you are a bigot. "I don't hate people except for the people I hate" doesn't make you not a bigot. I can understand hating Conservatism: I hate it too. But I can't hate Conservatives anymore than I can hate Theists.
You and Nick Fuentes have a lot in common politically though, so I dunno why you're attacking your political ally so ferociously.
I don't remember anyone ever posting any links of Liberals wishing for the deaths of Palestinians in here. And I don't think expecting things to get worse in Gaza is an example of hatred for Gazans. I think it's foresight.
Yeah that's exactly what happened.
Good.
Then why ask me what they're doing wrong? The question doesn't make sense. Unless there are qualifying words you're forgetting to add like "What are Conservatives doing that makes them anti-democratic if they're winning in a democratic race?" Is that what you mean?Because you said that democracy is about catering to fleeting majority opinions. In that case, republicans are doing that really well, at least they did in the 2024 election. Why did you even put so much effort into supporting democrats then?
Then you're doing the same things Republicans did to Kamala when they accused her of lying about fracking just because she changed her mind. You phrased Newsom's action not as him lying about what policies he wanted to promote, but changing his mind once he realized he wouldn't have democratic support if he followed them. These are two very, very distinct things.I think democracy is about very different things than that. First and foremost it includes people who stand up for what they believe is right without tactical lying about it. A politician should say what he thinks is just and right and then try to convince others of it. He should not just manufacture his strategy after polls and the party line. If a politician is for and then against giving homeless people free housing just based on how happy voters are with it, he has no place being a leader. A person with integrity is going to put his weight behind a thing he thinks is right and if people actually do not want it, he will accept being voted out.
We've already established that you know the context of the 180 so you can't make this claim unless you're just comfortable lying about the mindstate of Liberals. None of what you said proves Liberals don't care about ending homelessness, it just proves what I said: that there are caveats to ending homelessness that have to be dealt with, while also keeping homeless people in check along the way that prevents any fantastical idea that Leftists have in their mind. What's worse is it further solidifies the idea that Leftists have unrealistic expectations of politicians because they aren't willing to accept saidThe reason people went against Newsom's prior policy is because he implemented it so badly (to please his buddies in the industry) and because there already is a lot of unfounded fearmongering against homeless people. People souring up to that has nothing to do with a democratic and informed decision, but with fears and propaganda. Any leader with a moral backbone would have had to admit he did mistakes and that is not the fault of the homeless, take responsibility by correcting course or, if he cannot do that, resign. But Newsom is not such a leader, and instead he threw the homeless under the bus. Which, once again, is something a liberal can do, but not a leftist. Because a liberal is supported by liberals who will mostly accept that 180 as long as he keeps them safe, while a leftist will get far too much heat from his fellow leftists if he tries that move.
No, you're not being realistic. Committing to Housing First just means more problems later. More expensive and dangerous problems:But the point remains the same. Commit to housing first and you are not going to need to send the police to drag them off their tents. But that is not what democrats do, is it? And that brings us to my original point, that democrats are NOT committing on the policies that would end homelessness. They are committing onto policies that keep the homeless out of sight, just like republicans do, but they are trying to be nicer about it.
It is a general problem, as voters are getting angry at the homeless for problems Newsom created. And Newsom and Democrats in turn react to these angry voters by also blaming the homeless. They work in tandem here, agianst the homeless. And what I said in my original post also still is true. The liberal voters are fine as long as homelessness is out of sight. They are not going to push for a housing first policy or defend it if they think that this is going against their interests (for example, if there are too many homeless on street). If that happens, they are going to call for restrictive measures, no matter whether the real fault lies with an inept politician. And that is what differentiates them from leftists, who are not going to blame underprivileged groups for the problems that their poverty brings. Instead, they will keep fighting for these groups. And liberals won't, politician or average joe.
Gavin Newsom is not the progenitor of the homelessness epidemic in America, and your hyper focus on him allows you to distract from the very real problems concerning any advocate trying to fix homelessness in America. The fact that there can be decades worth of evidence contrary to your claim that Housing First is some kind of insane silver bullet further emphasizes the fantastical nature of Leftist policy not only being bad, but using moral grounds to blame other people for how bad it is.To sum it up, the support liberals have for underprivileged groups does not have a backbone. It can quickly fade away or turn 180 degree, and it WILL if the interests of the liberals as a group are threatened.
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Hating an entire group of people based on the actions of some of them does (we've had this conversation before). But I'll grant some leniency because political affiliation isn't an immutable characteristic.That makes no sense. Hating a group of bigoted people makes me a bigot? K then.
No you didn't, because that would require finding out what his positions are, which you can't do for fear of realizing you're wrong. You're gonna type up something that's vague and a personal attack to distract from your retreat from the argument.Oh really? I've looked him up,
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You can't say that or else you don't care about homeless people.The homelessness crisis in the US is driven as far as I know by mental health issues. Normally a mentally ill person is not suited for the responsibility and burden of home ownership. Add to that substance abuse and other issues. Housing is a major issue at the US but to tackle homelessness you need to give hundreds of thousands of neglected people real medical care and then some affordable housing option.
It was already GOING to be that. We knew this the second it was decided he was an all powerful God by the senate. That's why I couldn't give half a fuck about this Biden pardon. I would've thought less of the man if he didn't pardon his son.FFS, that pardon... Trump's day one action is going to be to pardon himself and everyone else that has ever taken a fall for him.
Ah shucks, might as well catapult them over the wall to mexico then.You can't say that or else you don't care about homeless people.
It was already GOING to be that. We knew this the second it was decided he was an all powerful God by the senate. That's why I couldn't give half a fuck about this Biden pardon. I would've thought less of the man if he didn't pardon his son.
For fucks sake look at what he's done already:
![]()
Lil Wayne and Kodak Black Among 4 Hip-Hop Figures Trump Pardoned (Published 2021)
An executive from Jay-Z’s Roc Nation and a founder of Death Row Records also received pardons or commutations, capping a long, strange relationship between the former president and the rap world.www.nytimes.com
Trump will pardon anyone for anything as long as he's on good terms with them, or he owes them for shady dealings in the past. To raise a stink about Joe Biden saving his son from prison just because it gives Republicans another excuse (that they don't need mind you) to do dishonest shit is retarded in my honest opinion.
Nah, Americans don't care about proper governance. You saw who they voted for. I don't even think Republicans care. They'll pretend they do, sure, but I'm not taking moral indignation from the people who elected a 34-count felon.Sure, but there was a point at which democrats at least had half a wooden but termite infested leg worth of morals to stand on. This is just bad for democrats and any pretence of proper governance they ever had. I don't know what they can do to come back from this. If morals and decency were a thing then biden should be impeached.
In fairness, republicans don't believe trump is a felon. As far as republicans are concerned trump is an outstanding citizen that is being persecuted by democrats. Meanwhile the whole of republican party believes democrats are criminals that have persecuted trump unfairly, basically weaponizing the government. And a non irrelevant section believes democrats in turn are satanic cannibalistic adrenochrome snorting lizard people that wants all kids groomed, raped and harvested (and by extension is giddy at the prospect of trump unceremoniously executing them all). I am not proposing a solution or anything like that because, welp, I don't even want to pretend I know how to deal with what is basically a satanic panic of unprecedented scale but the situation would actually be better than it is if republicans simply didn't care that trump is a felon.Nah, Americans don't care about proper governance. You saw who they voted for. I don't even think Republicans care. They'll pretend they do, sure, but I'm not taking moral indignation from the people who elected a 34-count felon.
I think there's too many folk on that alternate reality to simply ignore. And there's 4 years left of them trying to decipher trump's codes that the war is finally won. I don't doubt the merits of not being an clueless self righteous virtue signaler but that's barely the minimum. Even if that's the plan you still need to win over basically everyone else. Which sounds almost as unlikely as finding a solution for dealing with the crazies.Sure, but all of those reasons are why moral outrage from these people isn't to be respected. They don't live in the same world as us. We can't come to an understanding if facts aren't facts to them. There needs to be new rules for engagement because democracy can't work if half the country lives in a different reality than the other half.
This is UNIRONICALLY the answer.
- YouTube
Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.youtube.com
What kind of stupid logic is that? Homelessness crisis and mental health issues are not related for the most part, the cost of living is. Someone could be of sound mind but still become homeless because of high cost of health care, and losing their job because of their condition. Where did you even get that from, Trump?The homelessness crisis in the US is driven as far as I know by mental health issues. Normally a mentally ill person is not suited for the responsibility and burden of home ownership. Add to that substance abuse and other issues. Housing is a major issue at the US but to tackle homelessness you need to give hundreds of thousands of neglected people real medical care and then some affordable housing option.
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FFS, that pardon... Trump's day one action is going to be to pardon himself and everyone else that has ever taken a fall for him.
I don't know how this triggered your virtue signaling senses but it could have easily been avoided if you spent a solid 45 seconds googling.What kind of stupid logic is that? Homelessness crisis and mental health issues are not related for the most part, the cost of living is. Someone could be of sound mind but still become homeless because of high cost of health care, and losing their job because of their condition. Where did you even get that from, Trump?
I am asking you because you why you personally are for democrats if a politician should always back the majority opinion. If it is that easy, why even fight for a party at all if it just comes down to an opinion poll anyway?Then why ask me what they're doing wrong? The question doesn't make sense. Unless there are qualifying words you're forgetting to add like "What are Conservatives doing that makes them anti-democratic if they're winning in a democratic race?" Is that what you mean?
Absolutely, republicans were right there (for dishonest reasons). Kamala did not "change her mind" here because she suddenly knew better. She backed a crime that will lead to many deaths (fracking) because she thought it'd make her win. And the same goes for Newsom.Then you're doing the same things Republicans did to Kamala when they accused her of lying about fracking just because she changed her mind. You phrased Newsom's action not as him lying about what policies he wanted to promote, but changing his mind once he realized he wouldn't have democratic support if he followed them. These are two very, very distinct things.
Changing your mind is not lying, and it's incredibly dishonest to frame it that way.
Along which way? Which realistic way to end or meaningfully reduce homelessness is pursued? Right now, the whole country, including democratic states, are using more violence against the homeless than they used to.We've already established that you know the context of the 180 so you can't make this claim unless you're just comfortable lying about the mindstate of Liberals. None of what you said proves Liberals don't care about ending homelessness, it just proves what I said: that there are caveats to ending homelessness that have to be dealt with, while also keeping homeless people in check along the way that prevents any fantastical idea that Leftists have in their mind. What's worse is it further solidifies the idea that Leftists have unrealistic expectations of politicians because they aren't willing to accept said
That is not true. The link you gave cites reasons why the AMERICAN Housing first policy, the way you have done it, failed. That is not a failure of housing first in general, which is implemented successfully in other countries. If anything, it shows that democrats never truly committed to that practice (in many places, other places in America have had successful versions of it).No, you're not being realistic. Committing to Housing First just means more problems later. More expensive and dangerous problems:
We know it is universially applicable to all types of homeless people. We saw it in Finland.To believe that the Housing First model is the right choice, one must believe four assumptions are true:
- That it is universally applicable to all types of homeless people.
- That subsidized housing must be offered indefinitely.
- That providers must take a harm reduction approach, which means that they should not require sobriety or engagement in services or treatment as a condition of housing or as grounds for eviction.
- That government-funded projects are a cost-effective and scalable way to respond to homelessness.
Because I agree with the policies they promote. I disagree with the ones Republicans promote.I am asking you because you why you personally are for democrats if a politician should always back the majority opinion. If it is that easy, why even fight for a party at all if it just comes down to an opinion poll anyway?
Whatever. I'm not arguing thought crimes. I can't prove what was in her head, and neither can you. And I can't trust you to be objective about it either.Absolutely, republicans were right there (for dishonest reasons). Kamala did not "change her mind" here because she suddenly knew better. She backed a crime that will lead to many deaths (fracking) because she thought it'd make her win. And the same goes for Newsom.
And if said leftist understands the economy they'd ease up on the fracking ban crusade because a damaged economy harms people too. Another fantastical choice that can't be accomplished by ignoring context. There's no virtue in unrealistic adherance to an emotional crusade despite the fact that it'll absolutely fail.Both of them have no spine and back whatever they think grants them power, because, as I said before, they are providing a service for the industry and other lobby groups.
A leftist who understands that fracking fuels climate change in ways that make it impossible to keep key climate goals (which means saving millions of lives) is never going to back fracking. He is going to fight against fracking, even if that means he loses.
There isn't enough data I could show you that would change your mind.For a Liberal, the things he is for or against simply do not mean a lot if they stand in the way of their actual interests as a group. They only care for the homeless or the climate as long as it doesnt bother them, and you can see that with the politicians they champion and that woo them.
That's because homelessness has grown. The problem is getting worse, and people are getting less patient. And you can consult the list in the spoiler tag of my previous post to find out what should be done.long which way? Which realistic way to end or meaningfully reduce homelessness is pursued? Right now, the whole country, including democratic states, are using more violence against the homeless than they used to.
That's the point: America isn't identical to any other countries so you can't pretend like identical solutions would work here. In the same way that gun policy in other countries wouldn't work here because of the way the country has become up to this point. That's not to say that there isn't a correct long term solution, or that we shouldn't continue pursuing one.That is not true. The link you gave cites reasons why the AMERICAN Housing first policy, the way you have done it, failed. That is not a failure of housing first in general, which is implemented successfully in other countries. If anything, it shows that democrats never truly committed to that practice (in many places, other places in America have had successful versions of it).
If they're all comparisons to policy from non-American countries, don't waste my time.It also raises a lot of bullshit points that shows how biased it is. Feel free to ask me to pick apart singular points of it, i am more than capable to do so. But I do not feel compelled to answer to a long copypasta from that page when your source is basically as trustworthy as Foxnews.
All this means is we're at an impass. You've got a source that focuses on non-American statistics. I've got American statistics from a right-wing source. You have an ideological need to ignore my source, and I have a logical need to ignore yours.You use the rightwing thinktank cicero institute as a source, which campaigns against the homeless and wants to ban street camps alltogether as a campaign: A Texas think tank is pushing states to ban homeless camping : NPR
Do you think that is really a source whose framing you can trust - people who lie in bed with Prager U? Fact is, that Finland, a country that had a bad homelessness problem in the 90s, was able to radically reduce its homeless population with these measures https://www.theguardian.com/cities/...le-helsinkis-radical-solution-to-homelessness
They CAN'T do it the same way it's done in Finland! We're not Finland!And while obviously every country has unique challenges, you cannot claim America tried quite the same approach as Finland when I have given you evidence that California, with its very large homeless population, did not follow that example and neglected the part of treatment and care for the people who are given housing. The article you linked claims you have tried housing first policies, but you did just call policies that were quite unlike what leftists mean when they use the term that way. And the article obviously does it because it has an agenda against homeless people.
When your response to said source is just "They're right-wing so I can't trust them", that's not a damning response to my ability to do research. You haven't refuted any of it, you've dismissed it. Which is fine.You are basically eating out of the hands of a tainted source because you do not know a lot about that problem and have not researched it, thus are unable to see how misleading your source is. Research is more than copy and pasting a source you googled in 5 min.
...what do you think universally applicable means? It means it can be applied anywhere. And your evidence that it can work anywhere... is the fact that it worked somewhere?We know it is universially applicable to all types of homeless people. We saw it in Finland.
Subsidized Housing has to be offered permanently for SOME people, but many are also able to then get jobs with proper help.
Conditions for housing defeats the point of it.
Housing first IS cost effective,even in the faulty way that the US has implemented it: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8863642/