American Politics

[kkck]

I guess I took exception with the reductive way in which you talked about it. I think the very real increase in suffering, especially of children, can't even be remotely considered a temporary "solution" to the issue. The people that actually hold power and purchase over the governments in the western world know exactly why the situation is the way it is, and they are more than happy to let the blood-and-soil flavor of Trump and his ilk to take the spotlight and redirect from the actual compounding issues at hand.

What exactly do you refer to when talking about negative consequences elsewhere though?

It's not my intention to be dismissive of any of the folk who are migrating (least of all kids). My point is that migration in both the way and scale it was happening has negative consequences on the countries that are part of this. As in, the countries these migrants come from and the ones they cross to get to the US. And also of course the US.

In broad strokes migration here starts in countries close to the darien gap. Primarily from Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador and Peru. countries further than that also do this but at significantly reduced rates. As I've mentioned before people from these countries basically hit the road, get to northern colombia and then head to panama. But there's simply no roads that connect colombia or panama, hence the pass through the darien gap. Which is literally a jungle with little to no government presence. To add to the full dangers of the wilderness you have that over the past few years guerilla activity has increased in activity in colombia which makes the journey even more dangerous.

Then once they pass they are at panama and they continue their travel. Of course at this point you also have folk from central america who are migrating to the US, they just don't have to commit to the sheer insanity that is crossing the gap. But central america is not exactly safe either, big chunks of the region have significant gang influence. And guerrillas, gangs and cartels are more than willing and able to exploit folk migrating to the US. Extortions and human trafficking is pretty common (add to that, human trafficking has seen a massive boom over the past several years). Disappearances are just common normal occurrences. And no one even knows how widespread this is. As, you know, it involves lawless with no government presence or oversight and some of the worst criminal organizations you can imagine. It's also not uncommon for migrants to be used to sneak in drugs to the US either. After all these are poor, vulnerable people that need resources to get to the US. And gangs/cartels are common enough in central america and mexico as it is.

Now onto the countries they are crossing... You have highly vulnerable people traversing countries with historic social instability. Neither the countries they originate from nor the countries they have to cross have the capacity to provide these migrants with sufficient social services. Hell, most of these have weak currencies and can't afford to take care of their own citizens to begin with. There is relief of course but it can never be what is required to cover the levels of immigration of the past couple of decades. Let alone that at some point if it increases enough folk in this countries would start to question it. And reasonably so at that. As in "hey, our children are not eve getting peanuts at public schools, why are we spending millions on people who aren't from here". Migration to the US is not only caused by political instability but is also a cause of political instability across multiple countries.

And getting back to a point I've made before... people pay attention to what US policy looks like. That's just a fact. The simple reality is that people migrated to the US in the scale and way they did simply because knew that the US would take them in. In my country I've seen entire news reports about people getting ready to migrate because a democrat was in office. This is why what trump did with deportations is such a big deal... Darien gap crossings remain virtually nothing. The red cross pretty much withdrew from the gap crossing simply because there was nothing to do. That's a great thing.

And I suppose finally something that is worth considering is that the process of seeking asylum in US has been broken for decades over the sheer amount of requests. Realistically speaking a lot of people do need asylum. And yet in spite of being in immediate danger a request takes years and years to process. To the point of it being unrealistic unless the case was in some manner very high profile. I suppose the well here is sort of poisoned though because with far less requests to go through it should even be feasible to process it quickly but on the other hand I'd guess trump has no appetite to grant asylum to anyone at all.

 

[shionoro]

It's not my intention to be dismissive of any of the folk who are migrating (least of all kids). My point is that migration in both the way and scale it was happening has negative consequences on the countries that are part of this. As in, the countries these migrants come from and the ones they cross to get to the US. And also of course the US.

In broad strokes migration here starts in countries close to the darien gap. Primarily from Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador and Peru. countries further than that also do this but at significantly reduced rates. As I've mentioned before people from these countries basically hit the road, get to northern colombia and then head to panama. But there's simply no roads that connect colombia or panama, hence the pass through the darien gap. Which is literally a jungle with little to no government presence. To add to the full dangers of the wilderness you have that over the past few years guerilla activity has increased in activity in colombia which makes the journey even more dangerous.

Then once they pass they are at panama and they continue their travel. Of course at this point you also have folk from central america who are migrating to the US, they just don't have to commit to the sheer insanity that is crossing the gap. But central america is not exactly safe either, big chunks of the region have significant gang influence. And guerrillas, gangs and cartels are more than willing and able to exploit folk migrating to the US. Extortions and human trafficking is pretty common (add to that, human trafficking has seen a massive boom over the past several years). Disappearances are just common normal occurrences. And no one even knows how widespread this is. As, you know, it involves lawless with no government presence or oversight and some of the worst criminal organizations you can imagine. It's also not uncommon for migrants to be used to sneak in drugs to the US either. After all these are poor, vulnerable people that need resources to get to the US. And gangs/cartels are common enough in central america and mexico as it is.

Now onto the countries they are crossing... You have highly vulnerable people traversing countries with historic social instability. Neither the countries they originate from nor the countries they have to cross have the capacity to provide these migrants with sufficient social services. Hell, most of these have weak currencies and can't afford to take care of their own citizens to begin with. There is relief of course but it can never be what is required to cover the levels of immigration of the past couple of decades. Let alone that at some point if it increases enough folk in this countries would start to question it. And reasonably so at that. As in "hey, our children are not eve getting peanuts at public schools, why are we spending millions on people who aren't from here". Migration to the US is not only caused by political instability but is also a cause of political instability across multiple countries.

And getting back to a point I've made before... people pay attention to what US policy looks like. That's just a fact. The simple reality is that people migrated to the US in the scale and way they did simply because knew that the US would take them in. In my country I've seen entire news reports about people getting ready to migrate because a democrat was in office. This is why what trump did with deportations is such a big deal... Darien gap crossings remain virtually nothing. The red cross pretty much withdrew from the gap crossing simply because there was nothing to do. That's a great thing.

And I suppose finally something that is worth considering is that the process of seeking asylum in US has been broken for decades over the sheer amount of requests. Realistically speaking a lot of people do need asylum. And yet in spite of being in immediate danger a request takes years and years to process. To the point of it being unrealistic unless the case was in some manner very high profile. I suppose the well here is sort of poisoned though because with far less requests to go through it should even be feasible to process it quickly but on the other hand I'd guess trump has no appetite to grant asylum to anyone at all.

There is a discussion to be had about the HOW and the US, even before Trump, definitely did mistakes. However:

1) If there is a solution to be found, it has to be one in which the US and most South American players sit down to find a fair division of burdens for the supercontinent. The US unilaterally ransacking people and imprisoning them somewhere is not going to stop the refugee crisis. There is no solution without the US as the strongest economy taking up a brunt of the load, both when it comes to people coming to the US and aiding unstable regions with aid. And we already talked about how hypocritical it is from a US standpoint to exploit labor and ressources from the south but then acting like it is the victim.

2) The problem here with Trump is not that the immigration laws are getting tougher. The problem is that the rule of law stops having meaning. The US government does everything so people do NOT get their due process, going as far as to defy judge orders or just imprisoning people for no reason at all.
This is not a country adjusting their immigration laws, this is a country slipping into fascism and installing a rule of cruelty and whim rather than a rule of law. Refugees and immigrants are the first victims because they are the easiest targets.

None of this is going to end up helping southern american states or easing the refugee streams on the subcontinent singificantly. On both points, none of this can be framed as improvement, but as a vile series of actions that push america into an even darker reality.