American Politics

[kkck]

Well, as far as being "politicians" and overall means to get policy past I would argue that clinton far and wide straight up outclasses sanders. Hillary hasn't been a major democrat establishment figure during 20 years for nothing. I honestly like sanders' ideas better (in most things at least) but at this point the primaries are over. Regardless of superdelegates hillary won by popular support from the party as a whole. At this point the superdelegates are just the cherry on top of the cake and the only plausible way for sanders to get the nomination is that virtually every delegate flips and picks him in spite of popular support being overwhelmingly in favor of hillary. Which would be hypocritical IMO. Sanders made a hell of a point this election, he proved that a significant portion of the party wants to go further to the left... Hell, even hillary supporters don't dislike him as far as I can tell. With that in mind, sanders needs to move on and continue to work to get shit done. That is the best way he can capitalize on the past few months.

 

[shionoro]

Well, as far as being "politicians" and overall means to get policy past I would argue that clinton far and wide straight up outclasses sanders. Hillary hasn't been a major democrat establishment figure during 20 years for nothing. I honestly like sanders' ideas better (in most things at least) but at this point the primaries are over. Regardless of superdelegates hillary won by popular support from the party as a whole. At this point the superdelegates are just the cherry on top of the cake and the only plausible way for sanders to get the nomination is that virtually every delegate flips and picks him in spite of popular support being overwhelmingly in favor of hillary. Which would be hypocritical IMO. Sanders made a hell of a point this election, he proved that a significant portion of the party wants to go further to the left... Hell, even hillary supporters don't dislike him as far as I can tell. With that in mind, sanders needs to move on and continue to work to get shit done. That is the best way he can capitalize on the past few months.

I agree with that completely.
If sanders is honest about his policies, he now has the possibility to at least get some of them through.
He already forced clinton to lean more to the left, and by endorsing her he can assure the victory of at least some of his ideas.

And yes: He lost fair and square. Clinton, at that point, endorsed Obama. And clinton is not to blame for the system, the system is as it is.

Sanders showed that you can have a shot at presidency in the US with ideas which would be deemed evil socialist not long ago, and this is a great feat.

I really hope he can overcome the bitterness of his lose and stay in mind as a positive figure.

 

[Franckie]

Sanders always had two key problems with him. (1) He never understood the "insider's game", a sharp contrast to both Mrs. Clinton and President Obama. Decrying "establishment" support for Clinton is Sanders whining and failing to grasp that Clinton won their support by campaigning and fundraising for her party for decades. Sanders status as an "outsider" helped him with the voters, but it does not endear him to the "establishment" he'd need to implement his policies into reality. (2) He never understood that the root of dysfunction with government, especially the federal government, is unprecedented Republican obstruction. On paper, Sanders' proposals are popular across the political spectrum. Voters love socialism, but they hate it when the "undeserving" (aka Hispanics, blacks, white trash) receive government assistance, or "handouts" as Republicans like to call them. The truth is that Sanders' proposals will never pass the House of Representatives under any circumstances, and Republicans will retain the House despite this being a presidential year, which favors Democrats. Mrs. Clinton has her problems (e.g. she is likely to forge a compromise with Republicans that undermine programs like Obamacare), but Sanders just isn't used to Republican obstruction the way Mrs. Clinton is.

 

[shionoro]

Sanders always had two key problems with him. (1) He never understood the "insider's game", a sharp contrast to both Mrs. Clinton and President Obama. Decrying "establishment" support for Clinton is Sanders whining and failing to grasp that Clinton won their support by campaigning and fundraising for her party for decades. Sanders status as an "outsider" helped him with the voters, but it does not endear him to the "establishment" he'd need to implement his policies into reality. (2) He never understood that the root of dysfunction with government, especially the federal government, is unprecedented Republican obstruction. On paper, Sanders' proposals are popular across the political spectrum. Voters love socialism, but they hate it when the "undeserving" (aka Hispanics, blacks, white trash) receive government assistance, or "handouts" as Republicans like to call them. The truth is that Sanders' proposals will never pass the House of Representatives under any circumstances, and Republicans will retain the House despite this being a presidential year, which favors Democrats. Mrs. Clinton has her problems (e.g. she is likely to forge a compromise with Republicans that undermine programs like Obamacare), but Sanders just isn't used to Republican obstruction the way Mrs. Clinton is.

That's the thing: Many people seem to not see that clinton's support does not come out of her 'magically' being establishment but out of doing a lot of personal work for the party in several positions.

 

[kkck]

And now that she won everyone loves her again!

 

[shionoro]

And now that she won everyone loves her again!

is that so? 0.o

 

[xi0]

The way he behaves now indiciates that he does not understand the political game very much.

Having to adhere to some sort of standard and play a "game" is, in essence, the big picture problem. One could take your sentiment and use it as a means to praise someone, not critique them.

 

[kkck]

is that so? 0.o

Well, I mean that as a joke mostly. I do think the democrats will eventually unite against trump which should be seen in polls though.

 

[shionoro]

Having to adhere to some sort of standard and play a "game" is, in essence, the big picture problem. One could take your sentiment and use it as a means to praise someone, not critique them.

You can call it that, but any social interaction has certain unwritten rules.
You can say those rules are problematic and set out to change them, but someone who does not understand them definitely cannot do that.
He can simply not move and act in that space.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 9, 2016, Original Post Date: Jun 9, 2016 ---

Well, I mean that as a joke mostly. I do think the democrats will eventually unite against trump which should be seen in polls though.

It seemed like the polls in which trump beat clinton were outliers, too.

 

[SharkBait]

Im so glad Hilary Clinton cinched the party's blessing. Sanders would have ruined the country making the same sort of offsighted ill advised decisions that teens and young adults typically make and regret later in life. Our country would have died if he had became our president.

 

[xi0]

You can say those rules are problematic and set out to change them, but someone who does not understand them definitely cannot do that.
He can simply not move and act in that space.

But your assertion that he is like this...where is that coming from exactly?

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 9, 2016, Original Post Date: Jun 9, 2016 ---

Im so glad Hilary Clinton cinched the party's blessing. Sanders would have ruined the country making the same sort of offsighted ill advised decisions that teens and young adults typically make and regret later in life. Our country would have died if he had became our president.

Yeah, I'm certain a 74 year old man who's been a politician for 35 years makes a habit of such things...

 

[SharkBait]

But your assertion that he is like this...where is that coming from exactly?

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 9, 2016, Original Post Date: Jun 9, 2016 ---

Yeah, I'm certain a 74 year old man who's been a politician for 35 years makes a habit of such things...

Being a politician in a satellite state with little to no consequences for failure doesnt give me confidence in his ability.

 

[xi0]

Being a politician in a satellite state with little to no consequences for failure doesnt give me confidence in his ability.

Satellite state? I'm not sure that term means what you think it means...

Oh yeah, I'm sure the people of Vermont really feel like there's little to no consequence of failure in their existence. What a fatuous remark.

 

[shionoro]

But your assertion that he is like this...where is that coming from exactly?

From his recent behaviour.
I find it evry irresponsible that he didnt endorse clinton yet.
He seems to genuinely not understand that a chunk of the 'establishment' didnt want him exactly because he didnt seem loyal to the democrats and just wanted to use the party as a vehicle.
And the people who thought that are proven right now.

 

[M3J]

Why do you think he is the better candidate socially?
He has some ideas, some better, some worse. The way he behaves now indiciates that he does not understand the political game very much. So it is questionable whether he would ever be able to to even properly execute his ideas.
It is rather probable that he is unable to find compromises, while clinton is good at that.
Clinton understood that at some point you have to back down, you could see that in the primary against obama.
She was then a pretty loyal supporter of him. She put the parties behalfs before her own.
Sanders is no real democrat, he just ran in that party because he has no chance as independend (which is sad, but that is how it is).

Looking at the fact how little he seems to care about that party now indicates he would not even have been able to get his whole party on board with his ideas, which would be even more problemativ.

So you'd have a president with no knowledge (and no ambition) in foreign politics and who would probably not get anything done in inner politics.

Clinton however might not be as progressive as he is, but she is still one of the more left leaning types in the party.

It is more probable leftist reforms are made under clinton than under sanders, and this is why she ultimately is the better candidate.

He believes in equality and rights; he wants everyone to have equal chances, make college free and all; he knows Wall Street people shouldn't get away with crimes; etc.
Oddly, I read that Hillary distanced herself from Obama because she was scared being associated with him would hurt her campaign. It's why I find it weird that she defended him when Bernie criticized Obama, if he did.

Well, as far as being "politicians" and overall means to get policy past I would argue that clinton far and wide straight up outclasses sanders. Hillary hasn't been a major democrat establishment figure during 20 years for nothing. I honestly like sanders' ideas better (in most things at least) but at this point the primaries are over. Regardless of superdelegates hillary won by popular support from the party as a whole. At this point the superdelegates are just the cherry on top of the cake and the only plausible way for sanders to get the nomination is that virtually every delegate flips and picks him in spite of popular support being overwhelmingly in favor of hillary. Which would be hypocritical IMO. Sanders made a hell of a point this election, he proved that a significant portion of the party wants to go further to the left... Hell, even hillary supporters don't dislike him as far as I can tell. With that in mind, sanders needs to move on and continue to work to get shit done. That is the best way he can capitalize on the past few months.

well, Bernie is the reason why Hillary started going to the left or pandering to the left, so who knows.

 

[shionoro]

He believes in equality and rights; he wants everyone to have equal chances, make college free and all; he knows Wall Street people shouldn't get away with crimes; etc.
Oddly, I read that Hillary distanced herself from Obama because she was scared being associated with him would hurt her campaign. It's why I find it weird that she defended him when Bernie criticized Obama, if he did.

Clinton wants equal rights too and she wants to make access to college easier, either, but with, you guessed it, a plan which is more economy friendly and is more likely to get through congress.

 

[kkck]

well, Bernie is the reason why Hillary started going to the left or pandering to the left, so who knows.

Bernie definitely forced the party to the left but... whats your point?

 

[xi0]

From his recent behaviour.
I find it evry irresponsible that he didnt endorse clinton yet.
He seems to genuinely not understand that a chunk of the 'establishment' didnt want him exactly because he didnt seem loyal to the democrats and just wanted to use the party as a vehicle.
And the people who thought that are proven right now.

Why does he have to? Why should anyone endorse someone they don't support? I believe he will endorse her at some point, or else he'd probably be railroaded. Though I'm not sure what effect that'd have among Vermont's voters, they love the guy (he won Vermont with 86% of the vote rofl).

Honestly if the GOP field were different, I could see someone like Sanders not endorsing Clinton at all, and I wouldn't blame him in the least. He's been a Democrat for less than a year, why would anyone expect party loyalty? Him becoming a Democrat was a smart strategical choice, or else he still wouldn't have appeared in any televised debates up until this very day! Fuck party loyalty IMO, it's part of the problem with our political system. Just look at the GOP, someone like Marco Rubio, whose manhood was insulted by Trump, is expected to endorse him or face the consequences. Why would anyone with a modicum of self-respect do such a thing? Paul Ryan tiptoed around endorsing the guy for a long time, and right after he does it he betrays any reasonable person's confidence with the Judge Curiel controversy...and guess what, he still backs him!

The DNC and Clinton supporters are pushing the narrative that Trump being the GOP's nominee is supposed to be a unifying factor for moderates/progressives/independents, but Hillary Clinton has no business holding the office herself. This is the South Park episode come to life - people are choosing between a giant douche and a turd sandwich.

 

[Philia]

Mr.Sanders better endorse Mrs. Clinton. If he wants to stop a Trump presidency.

 

[M3J]

Im so glad Hilary Clinton cinched the party's blessing. Sanders would have ruined the country making the same sort of offsighted ill advised decisions that teens and young adults typically make and regret later in life. Our country would have died if he had became our president.

Pretty sure most other candidates like Rubio, Trump, or Cruz are way worse than Bernie.

But then again, you have proven over and over that you have not experienced real life or know anything about it. If you weren't homosexual, you'd probably think homosexuality was a wrong lifestyle choice.

From his recent behaviour.
I find it evry irresponsible that he didnt endorse clinton yet.
He seems to genuinely not understand that a chunk of the 'establishment' didnt want him exactly because he didnt seem loyal to the democrats and just wanted to use the party as a vehicle.
And the people who thought that are proven right now.

I don't think Bernie is loyal to the democrats at all, he likely joined the party only because he gave up running as an independent. I wouldn't be shocked if Bernie targeting Wall Street also made him enemies.

Clinton wants equal rights too and she wants to make access to college easier, either, but with, you guessed it, a plan which is more economy friendly and is more likely to get through congress.

debatable

Bernie definitely forced the party to the left but... whats your point?

I doubt the democrats or Hillary wanted to go to the left, but Bernie forced that to happen. The problem is, whether Hillary meant it or if she was just pandering for votes.