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xi0

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It's quite interesting that what conservatives call "traditional american values" tend to encroach on the rights of individuals just as much if not more than what the government is ever allowed to do.
 

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Traditional American values? How traditional do you mean?
Family values, christian values, fiscal conservative spending and taxs, common sense legislation, state rights, america first, sucessful people get rewards, individual liberty, america as the worlds protector.
 

xi0

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Family values, christian values, fiscal conservative spending and taxs, common sense legislation, state rights, america first, sucessful people get rewards, individual liberty, america as the worlds protector.
Why insist upon traditional, family, and christian values when the people who tend to champion these things don't respect your lifestyle? When you say these things it's really easy for people to come to the conclusion that you're just trolling now.
 

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What form of 'Christian values' are you in favour of? I really hope you don't mean 'biblical' values, but rather common values which Christians love to claim as their own...

I don't think anyone, even the Antichrist himself, is trying to stop 'successful people getting rewards' - it just turns out that some of the candidates feel these rewards should be far less than they currently are. The rewards certainly shouldn't influence the laws of the country quite as much as they currently do (money shouldn't equal politics - for example).

It certainly shouldn't be a situation where the wealthier you are, the more you can flaunt the law and avoid paying the taxes that you should.

Also, as xi0 so eloquently pointed out, individual liberty and 'traditional Christian family values' tend to mix as well as water and oil...
 
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Why insist upon traditional, family, and christian values when the people who tend to champion these things don't respect your lifestyle? When you say these things it's really easy for people to come to the conclusion that you're just trolling now.
What? There are same sex republicans same sex accepting evangelical churches and members and etc, sure some of the older crowd in these places may or may not be accepting but it just makes ones faith stronger. And again my state voted with a significant margin for same sex legalization. Acceptance is growing in the party and among churches and etc so I have no fear that rights for me will be expanded. The American people are majority of support even in purple and red states.

And I value a strong family support. Family is important in America. Having a childs Biological mother around is vital as well as two parents. Are you against families?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
What form of 'Christian values' are you in favour of? I really hope you don't mean 'biblical' values, but rather common values which Christians love to claim as their own...

I don't think anyone, even the Antichrist himself, is trying to stop 'successful people getting rewards' - it just turns out that some of the candidates feel these rewards should be far less than they currently are. The rewards certainly shouldn't influence the laws of the country quite as much as they currently do (money shouldn't equal politics - for example).

It certainly shouldn't be a situation where the wealthier you are, the more you can flaunt the law and avoid paying the taxes that you should.

Also, as xi0 so eloquently pointed out, individual liberty and 'traditional Christian family values' tend to mix as well as water and oil...
Yes common christian values. Donate to the poor, be nice to others, etc.
 

xi0

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What? There are same sex republicans same sex accepting evangelical churches and members and etc, sure some of the older crowd in these places may or may not be accepting but it just makes ones faith stronger. And again my state voted with a significant margin for same sex legalization.

And I value a strong family support. Family is important in America. Having a childs Biological mother around is vital. Are you against families?
Yeah I'm aware. People like those you describe tend to plug their ears when they hear the majority of their party speak on such topics though. That or they're just libertarians and value being fiscally conservative* over socially conservative. (asterisk because true fiscal conservatives are like unicorns for the last 30 or so years)

When did I say anything about being against families? I'm talking about conservative groups like the Family Research Council or the American Family Association. Groups like these are only advocates for families that they approve of, none of which include anyone who isn't heterosexual.
There are tons of children without any of their biological parents around, most of them having no say in the matter so I fail to see how that's relevant.
 

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What? There are same sex republicans same sex accepting evangelical churches and members and etc, sure some of the older crowd in these places may or may not be accepting but it just makes ones faith stronger. And again my state voted with a significant margin for same sex legalization. Acceptance is growing in the party and among churches and etc so I have no fear that rights for me will be expanded. The American people are majority of support even in purple and red states.
Always with the sex legalization - that is just one area in which people who love to boast their support for 'individual freedom' actually mean 'individual freedom as long as it follows (and doesn't exceed) what I believe your freedoms should constitute'.

And I value a strong family support. Family is important in America. Having a childs Biological mother around is vital as well as two parents. Are you against families?
Nice strawman - I don't believe a 'family' has to have a 'biological' mother or father.
Adopted 'families' are still families in my view.

I fail to see why 2 parents are even needed to constitute a family...

Yes common christian values. Donate to the poor, be nice to others, etc.
Fixed for you
 

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I wouldnt support those groups beyond their anti abortion stuff. Arent one against some vaccines and both are borderline gate groups? I also would hope most normal americans arent that extreme.
 

xi0

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I wouldnt support those groups beyond their anti abortion stuff. Arent one against some vaccines and both are borderline gate groups? I also would hope most normal americans arent that extreme.
Both of said groups have endorsed Ted Cruz, and he just won Iowa. While I'm not expecting him to do as well in New Hampshire, there's clearly a large portion of your party that either espouse what they stand for or at least tolerate it.
 

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Always with the sex legalization - that is just one area in which people who love to boast their support for 'individual freedom' actually mean 'individual freedom as long as it follows (and doesn't exceed) what I believe your freedoms should constitute'.


Nice strawman - I don't believe a 'family' has to have a 'biological' mother or father.
Adopted 'families' are still families in my view.

I fail to see why 2 parents are even needed to constitute a family...


Fixed for you
What other things is needed for freedom? Oh I gues we need the freedom for giving blood since people who are same sex are kind of barred from it. Freedom to choose healthcare? Freedom to buy a gun is being challenged

I dont know about adopted. I would still prefer a mom plus a dad. A child is missing a valuable contribution to their life. Plus most people that adopt seem to choose people from wartorn countries who have to go through life emotionally detached from who their mom was. Also could a female female or male male family really help develop a child? Arent such children still bullied and discriminated in school? I would hope for a day when they wouldnt be bullied then I would see it as maybe alright for such couples to adopt. I dont know if Im willing to think this is a right that people need in america. People wouldnt need to adopt in America if they had jobs and were secure financially.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Both of said groups have endorsed Ted Cruz, and he just won Iowa. While I'm not expecting him to do as well in New Hampshire, there's clearly a large portion of your party that either espouse what they stand for or at least tolerate it.
But I wont be voting for TrusTED. Rubio follows my values.
 

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I dont know about adopted. I would still prefer a mom plus a dad. A child is missing a valuable contribution to their life. Plus most people that adopt seem to choose people from wartorn countries who have to go through life emotionally detached from who their mom was. Also could a female female or male male family really help develop a child? Arent such children still bullied and discriminated in school? I would hope for a day when they wouldnt be bullied then I would see it as maybe alright for such couples to adopt. I dont know if Im willing to think this is a right that people need in america. People wouldnt need to adopt in America if they had jobs and were secure financially.
So then they shouldn't allowed to adopt only because they're a same sex couple? lol....so then it's better for a kid to be an orphan?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
But I wont be voting for TrusTED. Rubio follows my values.
What is TrusTED is reference to...?

Yeah, and what if Rubio doesn't win the nomination? Who will you support then? Despite the rhetoric, Rubio is more moderate than others...so I'm not sure why you keep going on and on about "values" as if only conservative republicans have them.
 

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So then they shouldn't allowed to adopt only because they're a same sex couple? lol....so then it's better for a kid to be an orphan?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

What is TrusTED is reference to...?

Yeah, and what if Rubio doesn't win the nomination? Who will you support then? Despite the rhetoric, Rubio is more moderate than others...so I'm not sure why you keep going on and on about "values" as if only conservative republicans have them.
Ted is too back and forth and I fear he was just selling out to evangelicals. Rubio aligns more for me on the positions I support the most (again I dont put that much value on social stuff) I also dont think Im super duper conservative though.

And its too early to think that. Why would one think Rubio would lose. The moment for a new American century is going strong. Trump even fears him, cruz and christie too.
 

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the freedom for giving blood since people who are same sex are kind of barred from it.
Seems a fine freedom to be in favour of.

Freedom to choose healthcare?
Freedom to have healthcare?

Freedom to buy a gun is being challenged
I doubt anyone is against that... All the arguments which I have seen that assure honest Americans that the government is trying to take their guns away are all BS. No one, not even Barack, the secret Muslim, Saddam Hussein Obama is actually trying to take away people's right to own firearms. That would be like political suicide if you ever wanted to actually be elected.

Not that it is really that bad of an idea in all fairness...

A child [without a mother and a father] is missing a valuable contribution to their life.
Why exactly does this have to be true?
Maybe children with a mother and a father are missing out a valuable contribution to their life, which only a same-sex couple can provide?

Seems that the 'valuable contribution to their life' is pretty subjective, based on the quality of the guardian(s) and not on their sex or sexual orientation.

Plus most people that adopt seem to choose people from wartorn countries who have to go through life emotionally detached from who their mom was.
Beside the point, and unrelated to the argument.

Also could a female female or male male family really help develop a child?
Seems so.

Now please do correct me, if I have made a mistake in my assumption, but doesn't "Children in same-sex parent families had higher scores on measures of general behavior, general health and family cohesion compared to population normative data" suggest the opposite of what you are so vehemently arguing?

Arent such children still bullied and discriminated in school?
Perhaps - and perhaps not.

Children can be horrible creatures to be honest. I doubt that there wouldn't be numerous other excuses which children can use to discriminate and bully others.

I would hope for a day when they wouldnt be bullied...
Maybe I have misjudged you...
then I would see it as maybe alright for such couples to adopt.
... or maybe not.

I dont know if Im willing to think this is a right that people need in america.
Well it's a good thing that it isn't your place to decide what rights the people in America actually have.

People wouldnt need to adopt in America if they had jobs and were secure financially.
Why not? 'Cause everyone in America is fertile, there are no orphans which need to be adopted. There are no kids with abusive/shitty parents which need to be adopted...

Perhaps those good old 'piss- trickle-down' economics will finally start to create all those jobs which they were meant to?

... either that or the rich will keep on getting richer and the poor poorer...
And, I mean, it isn't like the poor families are having more kids (which they can't afford) than the rich, is it?

As long as there is both a mother and a father, kids growing up in poorer families won't have a worse life than ones with rich families, will they?
 

xi0

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And its too early to think that. Why would one think Rubio would lose. The moment for a new American century is going strong. Trump even fears him, cruz and christie too.
Because it's still too early to assume he'll win? I don't know :oh
 

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If Sanders gets in office America as we know it will be gone. How could anyone want that. At least all republicans but Trump will restore traditional american values.
Yep, he'll likely improve America and actually make it the land of free and American dream. I can't believe people want that to happen!

You mean banning same sex marriage, being against LBTQ rights, and taking away basic freedom and rights that we have? Because that's what republicans are going to do, they said it themselves. You harp on about rights and freedom, but you seem to have no issue with republicans wanting to take away rights. I highly doubt you support same sex marriage or equality for homosexuals, even if you did vote for same sex marriage, which I doubt you did now.

I also don't get why you think negatively of Bernie when he defended homosexuals in military, or why you have a problem with Obama makin sure homosexuals have the right to get married. Lot of your views have been, to say the least, contradictory.
Family values, christian values, fiscal conservative spending and taxs, common sense legislation, state rights, america first, sucessful people get rewards, individual liberty, america as the worlds protector.
Family values? What family values? The country has a high rate of divorce, and it's been like this for years.

Religions should never be involved with the government. The Church is far too power hungry, outdated, and full of close minded idiots to have a right to dictate anything. Christian values take away rights, like the right to have same sex marriage, right for birth control, and whatever else. Fuck Christian values, they hurt the country and most of the citizens. Another reason why we should have an atheist president.

Common sense legislation is impossible with the childish politicians we have in office, whether republican, conservative, liberal, or democrat. They'd rather fight with each other and get things their way than compromise. Furthermore, the citizens in general are too dumb to really support common sense legislation. Many actually think tax money is going to abortion, or they believe anything their politicians say.

State rights are good, but if they can't do shit correctly, they don't deserve to have rights. Example being same sex marriage - states that weren't saying yes have no right to determine whether they should allow it or not. But then, even Texas cleared Planned Parenthood of any wrongdoing, so maybe they're not that bad.

America first, which means we shouldn't be the world's protector. We need to focus on ourselves and protect ourselves first before even attempting to help other countries out or sticking our noses into affairs without approval, just to gain something. This is how we gained many enemies, and why a lot of people in Middle East are not happy with us. Also part of why Pearl Harbor was bombed, but at least it led to Hitler's defeat.

You tout individual liberty, but you seem to be against it. I don't know what's real here. Obama gives homosexuals liberty to get married, but you're against that. Obama didn't take away the liberty to own a gun yet you act as if he has.

Successful people are getting rewards. They're wealthy, they own tons of stuff, and they can control law to an extent.

Ted is too back and forth and I fear he was just selling out to evangelicals. Rubio aligns more for me on the positions I support the most (again I dont put that much value on social stuff) I also dont think Im super duper conservative though.

And its too early to think that. Why would one think Rubio would lose. The moment for a new American century is going strong. Trump even fears him, cruz and christie too.
You seem to be extremely conservative, at least in your hatred of Obama and democrats.
 

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Yep, he'll likely improve America and actually make it the land of free and American dream. I can't believe people want that to happen!

You mean banning same sex marriage, being against LBTQ rights, and taking away basic freedom and rights that we have? Because that's what republicans are going to do, they said it themselves. You harp on about rights and freedom, but you seem to have no issue with republicans wanting to take away rights. I highly doubt you support same sex marriage or equality for homosexuals, even if you did vote for same sex marriage, which I doubt you did now.

I also don't get why you think negatively of Bernie when he defended homosexuals in military, or why you have a problem with Obama makin sure homosexuals have the right to get married. Lot of your views have been, to say the least, contradictory.

Family values? What family values? The country has a high rate of divorce, and it's been like this for years.

Religions should never be involved with the government. The Church is far too power hungry, outdated, and full of close minded idiots to have a right to dictate anything. Christian values take away rights, like the right to have same sex marriage, right for birth control, and whatever else. Fuck Christian values, they hurt the country and most of the citizens. Another reason why we should have an atheist president.

Common sense legislation is impossible with the childish politicians we have in office, whether republican, conservative, liberal, or democrat. They'd rather fight with each other and get things their way than compromise. Furthermore, the citizens in general are too dumb to really support common sense legislation. Many actually think tax money is going to abortion, or they believe anything their politicians say.

State rights are good, but if they can't do shit correctly, they don't deserve to have rights. Example being same sex marriage - states that weren't saying yes have no right to determine whether they should allow it or not. But then, even Texas cleared Planned Parenthood of any wrongdoing, so maybe they're not that bad.

America first, which means we shouldn't be the world's protector. We need to focus on ourselves and protect ourselves first before even attempting to help other countries out or sticking our noses into affairs without approval, just to gain something. This is how we gained many enemies, and why a lot of people in Middle East are not happy with us. Also part of why Pearl Harbor was bombed, but at least it led to Hitler's defeat.

You tout individual liberty, but you seem to be against it. I don't know what's real here. Obama gives homosexuals liberty to get married, but you're against that. Obama didn't take away the liberty to own a gun yet you act as if he has.

Successful people are getting rewards. They're wealthy, they own tons of stuff, and they can control law to an extent.


You seem to be extremely conservative, at least in your hatred of Obama and democrats.
Obama administration went about same sex legalislsation the wrong way. Again popular vote by citizens is the best way to get it done. Even if he didnt do it his way. The growing acceptance of same sex individuals would have enabled same sex marriage to be legalized. Enabling the court to hear an issue, or more technically appointing folks on the court who would suggest to hear the issue and decide it was bad. Its the principle and not the topic that matters. Soon we will reach the age when the govt will dictate the brand of soap detergent that you need to use.Do people really want the govt to dictate what goes on in our civil marriages.

Kudos and accolades to mr sanders but that doesnt mean I would support his beliefs and way of governing the country. Any good person, or a person of good Christian values, would stand up and let the marginalized voices be heard. So i dont see why you make it seem like sanders didnt something extraordinary. Also lets not forget that he failed to get minorities votes in the recent caucus.

Successful people arent getting rewards. Their rewards are being used to fund bad health programs, failing schools that keep failing, bridges to nowhere, failed pursuits to fund faulty gun control measures, and a wealth of other dumb programs. Instead the successful are being taxed to high heaven, pay for high healthcare that was thrust on you by obama, and more.Rubio has the plan to make the successful hardworking Americans, the working class, wealthier.
 

xi0

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For fucks sake, Obama had nothing to do with legalizing gay marriage. It's the result of a court case from Ohio that was appealed over and over and eventually came before the Supreme Court. Even prior to that decision, marriage was already legal in 36 states. The Supreme Court effectively made it legal everywhere for the sake of individual's Constitutional rights. Enforcing the Constitution of the United States is not taking the rights away from the states. States have never had the right to deny their citizens the rights protected by the US Constitution.
 
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How right you are.

I can see how being that wealthy must feel so unrewarding.
It must suck to own that much more money than everyone else...
Cool stuff. Although to be fair the results there are more or less to be expected. Safe for having a pool of actually evil people wealth, it is intuitive to want more equal income distribution and improved status quo over time for the majority. About as intuitive as, say, saying stealing is bad. The issue here in that regard isn't about whether better income distribution is a thing but rather about the means to obtain it. Within that context, differences are ideological. Conservatives at the US as far as I can tell really want that but see the government as something getting in the way and making people poorer. The issue here is the genuine believe that less taxes and less government and less "artificial" increases of wages genuinely lead to those objectives (I do think there is an extent to which "american values" (which IMO are a bit of a myth but that is neither here nor there) would take precedence over that objective in their view). In contrast to what democrats suggest which is achieving that via taxes, larger government and increased wages. Of course, a look at every single developed nation who triumphs the US in terms of income, wealth inequality and overall lifestyle easily suggests which is the approach that has worked.
 

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Obama administration went about same sex legalislsation the wrong way. Again popular vote by citizens is the best way to get it done. Even if he didnt do it his way. The growing acceptance of same sex individuals would have enabled same sex marriage to be legalized. Enabling the court to hear an issue, or more technically appointing folks on the court who would suggest to hear the issue and decide it was bad. Its the principle and not the topic that matters. Soon we will reach the age when the govt will dictate the brand of soap detergent that you need to use.Do people really want the govt to dictate what goes on in our civil marriages.
Popular vote by citizens who think more people should have guns and same sex marriage is a sin but not divorce is a horrible move, and it'd get no one anywhere. It's a horrible way to get it done because homosexuals cannot get married. If there is growing acceptance, then why did it take the federal government to legalize same sex marriage instead of the rest of the states doing it on their own? If we wait for growin acceptance, it'll at least five years, if not more than ten, for all states to accept same sex marriage.

You don't want the government to dictate what goes on in civil marriages, but you have no issue with republicans tryin to ban same sex marriage. You seem to be against government interference or having your rights and freedom taken away, but you seem to support the very party that means to do just that. You claim to support same sex marriage, yet you're upset that the government forced the states to accept it, even though popular vote would take too long, if some states even get the vote to accept same sex marriage.

Kudos and accolades to mr sanders but that doesnt mean I would support his beliefs and way of governing the country. Any good person, or a person of good Christian values, would stand up and let the marginalized voices be heard. So i dont see why you make it seem like sanders didnt something extraordinary. Also lets not forget that he failed to get minorities votes in the recent caucus.
I highly doubt any or most Christians would allow that, not like Bernie seems to be. How many president, bar maybe Obama, Lincoln, and the Roosevelts, stood up and let the marginalized voices be heard?

It's not what he's doin that's extraordinary, it's that he actually has stood by his beliefs for years that makes him extraordinary. Republicans like Cruz and Christie have flip flopped and try to suck up, while Bernie has defended homosexuals and hired a representative of BLM whereas Trump threatened them, kicked out people from his rallies, and justified the minorities being beaten up at his rallies.

Yeah, because Clinton is the bigger name. Let's not forget just how close to tying or beating Clinton Bernie was in the recent caucus. If I recall, less than one percent close.
Successful people arent getting rewards. Their rewards are being used to fund bad health programs, failing schools that keep failing, bridges to nowhere, failed pursuits to fund faulty gun control measures, and a wealth of other dumb programs. Instead the successful are being taxed to high heaven, pay for high healthcare that was thrust on you by obama, and more.Rubio has the plan to make the successful hardworking Americans, the working class, wealthier.
Successful people are getting rewarded. How are they not when they gain more wealth and more properties? Republicans aim to reward them even more and would likely let them get away with criminal acts. Their rewards give them advantages that others don't have.

The successful can afford high taxes that can serve to help the society, especially if the government has the common sense to severely reduce the defense and warfare budget. Or hell, reduce spending on defense and warfare by half or so, and lower taxes on the wealthy a bit. And wasn't it republican who came up with Affordable Care Act?


If Bill Gates can afford to pay taxes (which he supports increasin for wealthy) and donating money to charities, I'm sure other successful people who don't care to donate can afford higher taxes. though granted, Gates is one of the richest man in the world.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Increasing wages is a good move, and it makes no sense that people are opposed to it. But I see a lot of them feeling insulted that a "burger flipper" makes more than they do more than anythin else. I'm sure most companies can afford the increase, but they're too greedy.
 
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