In actuality, if an open atheist (odds say that we have had atheist or agnostic presidents) was President, most likely nothing would be different. The only difference would be an absent of prayer and a potentially greater appreciation and respect for discourse when it comes to unpopular opinions. Given what we know about politicians, I think it's safe to say that plenty of them only claim to be religious. I doubt anyone would assert that someone like Clinton or Nixon was morally supreme to atheists just because they said they believed in God. Many of their actions were totally immoral and un-Christian. Was Truman a good Christian for dropping the atomic bombs on Japan? I could go on obviously
The bible teaches tolerance and acceptance of others while stressing going out and making disciples out of all men. So people are free to practice whatever their religion is, but that they also ought to be open to be converted. So religious freedom is a Christian value. America teaches justice and opportunity for all while promising people basic freedoms which is basically teaching the teachings of the bible.
I dont understand the point of this statement. People legally move from country to country? Do they need a reason? Work, education, or just wanting to relocate. So Im confused at what you were trying to get at.
If America was given more military budget instead of cut funds then there would be less refugees because terrorist muslim entities and countries harboring them would be destroyed. Refugees don't want to come to America, they want to stay in their own country where they have made a name for themself or raised a family. The parents stay because there are opportunities still there.
Family values are still a key part of the American dialogue.
Why would sexual leaning be a bad lifestyle choice. I can not see any argument in which homosexuality could be argued as a bad lifestyle choice.
How would an atheist be better than a theist president? An atheist has no morals or values other than their own. With no higher being or religious text offering advice and enlightenment, an atheist would be making some pretty immoral decisions. Since an atheist only concern in life is returning back to the ground from whence they came, they dont have to practice things like being kind, respectful, or loving to one another since there is no higher power or even group of believers to keep track of of them. An atheist would just do whatever makes the feel good screwing others, taking advantage of friends and family, and just being all "out there." An atheist has no way of knowing right and wrong, immoral and moral. Our country would be sent to ruin. An atheist running the country is a scary thought.
1st. The bible you're reading now (if you even read it) is one of the edited versions no doubt because the original ones were VERY screwed up on its views on what was moral and what wasn't. (With changing times they had to make edits otherwise they'd lose many believers due to the outdated bs on them)
2nd. No shit some people move here for work, education and sometimes even for a change of scenery tho your idea about them relocating for that last reason is very screwy. You don't just decide "screw it, I'm moving to another country" lightly, so no, that isn't that common. You're confusing them moving to another country due to danger for funsies.
3rd. ... what even...
4th. Just because people like to bring up wholesome thoughts like keeping families together, up, doesn't mean many even care that much anymore. We live in an age where more so than ever before, people are very VERY cynical and don't hold on to many values. This isn't the just the atheists deciding "fuck my family and marriage" but christians or whatever beliefs you want to bring up also divorce at an alarming rate.
5th. Why do I bother...? Homosexuality isn't even a lifestyle choice... not to mention the bible looks down on them... Good to see that at least you have the decency to understand that they are no less a human being than you, so props for that after all these other answers of yours.
6th... here we go again and it's pretty funny... kinda. You really believe that not believing in a god and yours to be specific (tho I'll cut you some slack since you didn't outright say not believing in your deity made us immoral... but not much better tbh) makes us immoral? I don't believe in a god but I wouldn't hurt another for the hell of it nor am I here just mess things up until I bite the dust... *sigh* this is beyond ridiculous. At this point you can only be a troll or a brainwashed fool neither of which are much better than the other in my opinion.
And tho I don't believe in any religion or gods, I don't see why it's bad for someone to be religious. Just make sure to be able to differentiate fiction from reality and don't believe everything blindly.
Problem is, many can't seem to do that. Some politicians would rather ban abortion because they claim fetuses have souls when the decision should be left to the carrying mothers. Some politicians (at least one I've heard of) want prayers back in school and force everyone to pray, which is a dumb idea as well. Like, it's no problem if they want praying back but make it people's choice.
By and large they don't. They might run their campaigns on the premise of a religious belief, but like I said, it's just lip service. If a president truly lived only by Christian values and laws, this country would be a terrible place to live.
Actions not words. I wouldn't care if it doesn't have an effect on governance.
The bible teaches tolerance and acceptance of others while stressing going out and making disciples out of all men. So people are free to practice whatever their religion is, but that they also ought to be open to be converted. So religious freedom is a Christian value. America teaches justice and opportunity for all while promising people basic freedoms which is basically teaching the teachings of the bible.
No it does not. The Bible teaches bad and violent things, and it's usually cherry picking that people think it's good. A group of people did an experiment where they made the Bible look like the Qu'ran and had people read the highlighted parts. After people said how violent the Qu'ran was, the group doing the experiment revealed it was actually the Bible. And if I recall, the Bible is the reason why homosexuals and back then, black people, are treated so badly. The Bible teaches intolerance, not tolerance and acceptance of others.
Then you should be open to being converted to being a Muslim, Buddhist, or Brahmin, but you seem to criticize Muslims and act as if they're all dangerous. I'm pretty sure the deluded views of the Bible would disagree with negative views of Muslims, if it does teach tolerance and acceptance. You however seem to be quite intolerant and unaccepting of people.
I fail to see how it's a Christian value when Christians have attacked people who weren't Christians or who were atheists. KKK, for example.
I dont understand the point of this statement. People legally move from country to country? Do they need a reason? Work, education, or just wanting to relocate. So Im confused at what you were trying to get at.
If America was given more military budget instead of cut funds then there would be less refugees because terrorist muslim entities and countries harboring them would be destroyed. Refugees don't want to come to America, they want to stay in their own country where they have made a name for themself or raised a family. The parents stay because there are opportunities still there.
People who immigrate to another country, legally or illegally, do it because they are forced to. It's extremely stupid and ignorant to claim they can live in their home countries or nearby countries and say there are opportunities when there aren't. You seem open to letting refugee children be killed (the main reason why many of them leave their home countries), but you seem to be against abortion. Yet, you can't defend why abortion is bad without contradicting yourself as to why refugee children should not be accepted. I just gave you an example of this in the post you quoted.
No, if America was given more military budget it would waste far more money and get so little done while paddin the pockets of weapons industry and head honchos. There would still be plenty of refugees and plenty of terrorists, and destroying these countries would piss off the survivors and turn them into terrorists hellbent on destroying the US for revenge. This logic is very faulty and ignorant.
Refugees might not want to come to America because of bad people like you, but they are generally forced to come to countries like America, France, and Germany (to name a few) to get away from the violence or poor economic situations in their country. It doesn't matter whether they made a name for themselves, they'd rather see their family survive and have a better life. I'm also pretty sure the parents are forced to stay for one reason or another. Again, you're better off talking to the actual people, not listening to Fox News bullshit.
Family values are still a key part of the American dialogue.
Why would sexual leaning be a bad lifestyle choice. I can not see any argument in which homosexuality could be argued as a bad lifestyle choice.
And yet, you still get high rates of divorces, even from couples who have kids. Many couples also opt to live with each other instead of getting married, while a lot of significant others cheat or look to have affairs. I don't see where the family value is in that.
It can be argued that homosexual men contract AIDS/HIV, which can also spread to others. It's also not natural, nor would it be seen as family values due to the fact that people believe men should be with women. They also popularly quote "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve."
How would an atheist be better than a theist president? An atheist has no morals or values other than their own. With no higher being or religious text offering advice and enlightenment, an atheist would be making some pretty immoral decisions. Since an atheist only concern in life is returning back to the ground from whence they came, they dont have to practice things like being kind, respectful, or loving to one another since there is no higher power or even group of believers to keep track of of them. An atheist would just do whatever makes the feel good screwing others, taking advantage of friends and family, and just being all "out there." An atheist has no way of knowing right and wrong, immoral and moral. Our country would be sent to ruin. An atheist running the country is a scary thought.
Can you prove atheists have no morals or values other than their own or that's bad? I mean, haven't theists supported genocide and murders, from killing Native Americans to lynching blacks to gassing the Jewish people? How can you question atheists' morals and values when theists have committed horrible acts and crimes?
No they don't, which is why atheists are better. They're kind and respect not because they have to be, but because they want to be. Whereas, theists are likely kind, respectful, and loving to one another because they're selfish and don't want to go to Hell. And there's a chance if it's proven God doesn't exist, then theists would likely become bad. I'm pretty sure atheists have better sense of what's right and wrong than theists do and would be far more moral. They would also believe in freedom and equality for everyone, not based on race or sexual orientation or whatever like a theist would.
Very ironic for a Christian to talk about atheists not knowing right and wrong, moral and immoral, when they've had groups of people who killed specific groups for bigoted reason or another. Seems you are a huge cherry picker on top of an ignorant person who hasn't experienced or seen the real world. You seem to make atheists look bad, but you forget theists have committed murders and horrific acts. You claim the Bible is about tolerance, but people actually use the Bible to justify why homosexuality is bad. You seem to point out democrats making mistakes and cannibalizing each other, but you ignore republicans doing it even worse over stupid things and have not yet addressed republicans lying. You also approve of "successful" people like the Wall Street executives committing crimes that affect millions of people negatively, but you seem to get irked when someone forgets your order or despite possibly bein busy, forgets to give you your credit card back.
Scary thing is that we have politicians who think a lot like you, if not worse. It's no wonder why this country can't progress and is in a bad shape.
4th. Just because people like to bring up wholesome thoughts like keeping families together, up, doesn't mean many even care that much anymore. We live in an age where more so than ever before, people are very VERY cynical and don't hold on to many values. This isn't the just the atheists deciding "fuck my family and marriage" but christians or whatever beliefs you want to bring up also divorce at an alarming rate.
Kim Davies refused to issue marriage license to a same sex couple on the grounds of Bible and religion, but she herself went against the Bible when she was divorced multiple times. Religious people cherry pick.
If an atheist's only concern in life is returning back to the ground, then why do they exist at all? Why do they not all commit suicide the moment they come to their "revelation"? What you say makes no sense and is very close-minded for someone who insists on others being open-minded to conversion. Maybe you should also be in denial of your own inborn nature, just because most Christians and members of the Republican party believe it is "immoral" as well. I'm sure you're aware of what the Bible and Christians say about homosexuality, no? Somehow I think you'll find yourself in quite the hypocritical bind if you ponder it long enough.
Im not a proponent of suicide but it seems when people lose all purpose in life then they do go towards the off'ing themselves route. So when one has no belief in a higher power or even an afterlife what reason is there to keep living? I am quite sure this has been something that people have debated for numerous years.
Beyond that what reason is there to even do good things? An atheist would reap no rewards in an afterlife since they dont believe in it. In terms of the present, without any belief in a higher power why do good things? No one gets rewarded for obeying the law but you get punished for not obeying the law. What reason does one who doesnt believe in a higher power have to treat others fairly, politely, and right? Since you get no rewards that are going to be dished out in the afterlife for every good deed you do, or even received a "blessing" while on this Earth, there is no reason for an atheist to do good. Sure one can say if they do something right then they will be rewarded in return but Im quite sure that usually doesnt happen (for example if you donated a dollar or so to a homeless man, did you ever get a dollar back?). People who are atheist seem to follow this line of logic and end up being the ones who hoard up all their money and possessions while here on Earth and barely donate anything to charity and etc.
If an atheist's only concern in life is returning back to the ground, then why do they exist at all? Why do they not all commit suicide the moment they come to their "revelation"?
And what do you think the mandated penalty of such a logical decision is if they refuse? I think you'll find it isn't something we condone here in the US.
Since our country was founded on christian values and the bible doesnt teach adherents to persecute nonbelievers, then if someone doesnt believe or is unwilling to convert, then there is nothing to do but to give thoughts and prayers.
Well this has led to many nights of sorrow and distress over my own homosexuality and the teachings in the current times, however since it is allowed by American law it has made my life easier to see as being socially acceptable. Though homosexuality isnt something that would keep someone from salvation in Christian teaching.
I don't understand this. If your country is being attacked by the enemy then it should be allowed to retaliate as your safety is in order. Even original law in the bible stressed you reap what you sow, an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth etc. To argue that a Christian ought not use weapons of war is a strange idea to take. The Japanese killed women and children on that Sunday morning. Are you really American?
6th... here we go again and it's pretty funny... kinda. You really believe that not believing in a god and yours to be specific (tho I'll cut you some slack since you didn't outright say not believing in your deity made us immoral... but not much better tbh) makes us immoral? I don't believe in a god but I wouldn't hurt another for the hell of it nor am I here just mess things up until I bite the dust... *sigh* this is beyond ridiculous. At this point you can only be a troll or a brainwashed fool neither of which are much better than the other in my opinion.
What is driving an atheists morality? Without a rulebook set down from a higher power, it just seems atheists would have no morals. When someone says they are Christian, most people instantly jump to the expectation that the person would by definition ought to be kind, peaceful, righteous, truthful, and not a liar. When someone says they are atheist then the same words do not come to mind.
Then you should be open to being converted to being a Muslim, Buddhist, or Brahmin, but you seem to criticize Muslims and act as if they're all dangerous. I'm pretty sure the deluded views of the Bible would disagree with negative views of Muslims, if it does teach tolerance and acceptance. You however seem to be quite intolerant and unaccepting of people.
I am tolerant of Muslim people. Ive never said anything offensive or repulsive about them, and value them as fellow sentient beings. Ive only said the extremists in terrorist countries and some here are security liabilities. Factually that is correct as Muslim people have committed crimes.
How is this a bad things? They are still doing kind, respectful, and loving things. The means justify the end and all that jazz. Thats just how the cookie crumbles.
An atheist morals could just change as fast as the direction of the wind changes. They arent bound by any higher power, so what they say one day is right, could the next day be wrong.
You seem to point out democrats making mistakes and cannibalizing each other, but you ignore republicans doing it even worse over stupid things and have not yet addressed republicans lying.
In actuality, if an open atheist (odds say that we have had atheist or agnostic presidents) was President, most likely nothing would be different. The only difference would be an absent of prayer and a potentially greater appreciation and respect for discourse when it comes to unpopular opinions. Given what we know about politicians, I think it's safe to say that plenty of them only claim to be religious. I doubt anyone would assert that someone like Clinton or Nixon was morally supreme to atheists just because they said they believed in God. Many of their actions were totally immoral and un-Christian. Was Truman a good Christian for dropping the atomic bombs on Japan? I could go on obviously
To be honest I always found religion at the US to be a weird topic, particularly with the republican party (the democrats make much less of a point to that in general so it is less weird). I hear the stuff they say and I can only wonder how exactly they think the stuff they are saying is even vaguely christian (or at least follows what is generally considered christian values...). For one thing, republicans consider solidarity a suggestion... Regardless of what denomination you are from, the commonly taught stuff about Jesus is about helping others, specially the needy and poor, solidarity being more than a suggestion, give up riches to focus on spirituality... And in turn you have a republican party actively fighting to end "entitlement" programs, fight against affordable care (I could understand not caring about obama care but the usual republica alternative is usually between nothing and almost nothing) and their attitude towards poor people is nothing short of hatred. And a worship of material goods (trump is basing his campaign on how rich he is). Not to long ago potential candidates were competing over whom is most willing to commit war crimes and each and every one of them has enforced increased torture in some form (whicheventheCIA says doesn't work anyways).
I am tolerant of Muslim people. Ive never said anything offensive or repulsive about them, and value them as fellow sentient beings. Ive only said the extremists in terrorist countries and some here are security liabilities. Factually that is correct as Muslim people have committed crimes.
How is this a bad things? They are still doing kind, respectful, and loving things. The means justify the end and all that jazz. Thats just how the cookie crumbles.
An atheist morals could just change as fast as the direction of the wind changes. They arent bound by any higher power, so what they say one day is right, could the next day be wrong.
This is false, I have mentioned that Ted Cruz was busted for lying and that he isn't to be trusted.
no, you are not. you make it out as if most, if not all, are terrorist or bad people. You point out how we shouldn't take in Islamic refugees because you fear they may turn out to be terrorists (even though our vetting process is very good), yet you seem to have no issue with ring wingers or Christians or white people committing acts of terrorism. Muslims are less of security liabilities than Christians, given how many have committed crimes as opposed to Muslims. I'm not sure if you know what liability is, as you claim refugee children are liabilities, but you claim unwanted children who aren't aborted are not liabilities.
It's a bad thing because it shows that if God and Heaven didn't exist, these theists would commit crimes and abandon morals and values. Hell, many of them already have. Christians do not have the right to talk about the morals or values of others given they have done extremely immoral things or tossed away good values for fucked up reasons. plus, don't rabbis and pastors and the like molest boys? Do you approve of that?
Do you have proof of this? Because as far as I know, this is an ignorant statement based on nothing but delusion or bullshit. An atheist's morals and values would not change that fast, not compared to a theist if he/she realized God isn't real.
One republican candidate, but you never pointed out the infighting and cannibalizing between the candidates. Or Trump talking about his penis/penis size. Your posts and arguments here have not only made you look bad, but they have also made tons of republicans, Christians, and conservatives look bad because I am sure many share the same ideas as you, if not worse.
On a related subject, I find it funny how people whine and cry about how bad Obama's made America look, but they're still voting for Trump or Hillary when people from other countries literally think the US is dumb for even making Trump popular. Obama's made America look like a threat, while Americans have hurt the image of America. Trump is doing tons of damage to America's credibility and rep, and he's not even a president yet.
No they don't, which is why atheists are better. They're kind and respect not because they have to be, but because they want to be. Whereas, theists are likely kind, respectful, and loving to one another because they're selfish and don't want to go to Hell. And there's a chance if it's proven God doesn't exist, then theists would likely become bad. I'm pretty sure atheists have better sense of what's right and wrong than theists do and would be far more moral. They would also believe in freedom and equality for everyone, not based on race or sexual orientation or whatever like a theist would.
Isn't this a gross generalization?
I have met people who believe in the same "higher power" that Americans and Christians all over the world believe in, I am even related to many of them and I certainly don't feel that theists are doing whatever good they are doing in their lives, because they don't want to go to hell, many of them are nice people and these values do come from a selective reading of the same book you criticize
And how are you sure that atheists would not produce bigots?You dont need to be Christian, Shaivite, Muslim or anything for that matter to be a bigot, as long as difference exist one will have all the sufficient reasons to discriminate between people, the reasons you use can be varied but the kind of discrimination that Christianity and Islam has been accused of causing, can and will be created under different names/reasons, being an atheist does not prevent this, one bit.They are human after all.
And isn't Obama a Christian?In what way has he been kind only because he does not want to go to hell.
Beyond that what reason is there to even do good things? An atheist would reap no rewards in an afterlife since they dont believe in it. In terms of the present, without any belief in a higher power why do good things? No one gets rewarded for obeying the law but you get punished for not obeying the law. What reason does one who doesnt believe in a higher power have to treat others fairly, politely, and right? Since you get no rewards that are going to be dished out in the afterlife for every good deed you do, or even received a "blessing" while on this Earth, there is no reason for an atheist to do good. Sure one can say if they do something right then they will be rewarded in return but Im quite sure that usually doesnt happen (for example if you donated a dollar or so to a homeless man, did you ever get a dollar back?). People who are atheist seem to follow this line of logic and end up being the ones who hoard up all their money and possessions while here on Earth and barely donate anything to charity and etc.
Why do you need a higher power to make you behave? Are humans such dumb creatures that this ability is entirely absent from our psyche? You don't need God to make you obey laws or be good towards to your fellow beings, you can be both of those things, even while not following such a notion(of a God) in whatever form it comes, people have the intrinsic ability to be whatever they want, and irrespective of whatever society tries to impose on you, you will end up being who you are born to be, in other words if you are born to be an asshole, no holy book, or higher power has the ability to make you anything but that, you will become asshole with or without those on your side, same with if you are born as a good person, you will become one even if that same higher power is completely non-existent.
But rules are made to be broken...and besides,higher powers have set rulebooks all over the world, yet conflict is still ever present, granted that you can always blame it on humans not following the rules properly, but then how does that make this whole concept of a rule book being necessary for morals any stronger
Why do you need a higher power to make you behave? Are humans such dumb creatures that this ability is entirely absent from our psyche? You don't need God to make you obey laws or be good towards to your fellow beings, you can be both of those things, even while not following such a notion(of a God) in whatever form it comes, people have the intrinsic ability to be whatever they want, and irrespective of whatever society tries to impose on you, you will end up being who you are born to be, in other words if you are born to be an asshole, no holy book, or higher power has the ability to make you anything but that, you will become asshole with or without those on your side, same with if you are born as a good person, you will become one even if that same higher power is completely non-existent.
I would have to disagree with this. That would go back to the claims made earlier in the thread about people being born to poor and uneducated families would be predetermined to be poor and uneducated. Anyone born has the ability to change who they are so, I would have to say that perhaps a person who is born to be a big meanie, once they have a fateful encounter with a missionary may realize the error of their ways and change for the better.
But rules are made to be broken...and besides,higher powers have set rulebooks all over the world, yet conflict is still ever present, granted that you can always blame it on humans not following the rules properly, but then how does that make this whole concept of a rule book being necessary for morals any stronger
When people interpret the rules their own way that is where conflicts arise, we even see it with countries breaking UN resolutions, or countries breaking rules imposed on them, or even country leaders breaking their own rules. Additionally why else would our country have a Supreme Court system set in place to properly interpret the law. I imagine the same thing exists in religion where leaders who have gone and received formal training in their religion and also extensive study and have been graced with the blessings of the higher being are able to interpret the law for their followers. It could be said that the rulebreakers, the leaders who have launched themselves and their congregations into doing heinous deeds or living a double life behind doors, are truly not adherents to the faith.
Rubio delivering stunning comments tonight. His foreign policy is awesome and his climate change response is agreeable. I find myself agreeing with everything he says.
Rubio delivering stunning comments tonight. His foreign policy is awesome and his climate change response is agreeable. I find myself agreeing with everything he says.
Did you not say you actually thought climate change was a threat? Rubio's views on climate change is extremely idiotic and further shows why a republican would be a bad choice and do even more damage. South Florida even seems to be in grave danger from climate change, and yet Rubio is denying it? Makes no sense, and it implies he would sweep problems he disagrees with under the rug.
Im not a proponent of suicide but it seems when people lose all purpose in life then they do go towards the off'ing themselves route. So when one has no belief in a higher power or even an afterlife what reason is there to keep living? I am quite sure this has been something that people have debated for numerous years.
Beyond that what reason is there to even do good things? An atheist would reap no rewards in an afterlife since they dont believe in it. In terms of the present, without any belief in a higher power why do good things? No one gets rewarded for obeying the law but you get punished for not obeying the law. What reason does one who doesnt believe in a higher power have to treat others fairly, politely, and right? Since you get no rewards that are going to be dished out in the afterlife for every good deed you do, or even received a "blessing" while on this Earth, there is no reason for an atheist to do good. Sure one can say if they do something right then they will be rewarded in return but Im quite sure that usually doesnt happen (for example if you donated a dollar or so to a homeless man, did you ever get a dollar back?). People who are atheist seem to follow this line of logic and end up being the ones who hoard up all their money and possessions while here on Earth and barely donate anything to charity and etc.
These are philosophical questions that aren't really answerable here, but the answer is someone both similar and different to what any supposedly religious person would say.
Living life simply because a reward is promise for belief is quite a petty thing. You're essentially saying that the free will your god supposedly gave you is meaningless.
And how exactly do you know what atheists do for charity? I don't think you know anything about it, you're just attributing value to their lives as you see it. We know about all the charity organized religion does because they never shut up about it. And their adherents never fail in bringing it up as some sort of excuse for the horrors they teach people and little children. That essentially doubting what they say means that they're doomed to eternal hell fire. What exactly is charitable about that?
Since our country was founded on christian values and the bible doesnt teach adherents to persecute nonbelievers, then if someone doesnt believe or is unwilling to convert, then there is nothing to do but to give thoughts and prayers.
Repeating something over and over again doesn't make it true. The founders were deists, not Christians. And religious persecution is one of the many horrors condoned by the God of Abraham along with rape and genocide. Have you even read the book you keep bringing up?
Well this has led to many nights of sorrow and distress over my own homosexuality and the teachings in the current times, however since it is allowed by American law it has made my life easier to see as being socially acceptable. Though homosexuality isnt something that would keep someone from salvation in Christian teaching.
I'd say the majority of Christians would disagree with that entirely. They only have to put up with homosexuals because we live in a free and just society. Where your inborn nature can not be something you are persecuted for. This is the opposite of what the Bible teaches. The Bible says that your inborn nature is bad and must be denied...that it is "sin".
It being permitted in the US has nothing to do with any religious thought. In fact, it's obvious it's allowed here in spite of such a thing.
I don't understand this. If your country is being attacked by the enemy then it should be allowed to retaliate as your safety is in order. Even original law in the bible stressed you reap what you sow, an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth etc. To argue that a Christian ought not use weapons of war is a strange idea to take. The Japanese killed women and children on that Sunday morning. Are you really American?
You continue to conflate being a Christian with being an American. Newsflash - they're not the same thing.
The decalogue says that "thou shall not kill". Truman's order resulted in hundreds of thousands of innocents dead. How can one say that this is what a good Christian would do? Of course, God allowed and even encouraged murder, rape, and genocide many times in the Bible after the decalogue was established, but most Christians ignore this in favor of what Jesus supposedly taught. But even Jesus himself supposedly said in the gospel of of Matthew, "I came not to bring peace, but to bring a sword".
To be honest I always found religion at the US to be a weird topic, particularly with the republican party (the democrats make much less of a point to that in general so it is less weird). I hear the stuff they say and I can only wonder how exactly they think the stuff they are saying is even vaguely christian (or at least follows what is generally considered christian values...). For one thing, republicans consider solidarity a suggestion... Regardless of what denomination you are from, the commonly taught stuff about Jesus is about helping others, specially the needy and poor, solidarity being more than a suggestion, give up riches to focus on spirituality... And in turn you have a republican party actively fighting to end "entitlement" programs, fight against affordable care (I could understand not caring about obama care but the usual republica alternative is usually between nothing and almost nothing) and their attitude towards poor people is nothing short of hatred. And a worship of material goods (trump is basing his campaign on how rich he is). Not to long ago potential candidates were competing over whom is most willing to commit war crimes and each and every one of them has enforced increased torture in some form (whicheventheCIA says doesn't work anyways).
It's like I think I mentioned before. The religiosity of many voters is exploited by politicians. Definitely more divisively on the right due to the conservative nature of the religious, but they both do it. The lie of this country being founded on Christian principles is continually perpetuated by these people for benefit for their own political agendas. It was founded on the principle of religious freedom, which runs in direct opposition of what Christianity teaches, and nothing else.
And their supposedly religious principles running contrary to their own policies is nothing new. America didn't invent hypocrisy of this kind, it's in their own books of worship.
Isn't this a gross generalization?
I have met people who believe in the same "higher power" that Americans and Christians all over the world believe in, I am even related to many of them and I certainly don't feel that theists are doing whatever good they are doing in their lives, because they don't want to go to hell, many of them are nice people and these values do come from a selective reading of the same book you criticize
And how are you sure that atheists would not produce bigots?You dont need to be Christian, Shaivite, Muslim or anything for that matter to be a bigot, as long as difference exist one will have all the sufficient reasons to discriminate between people, the reasons you use can be varied but the kind of discrimination that Christianity and Islam has been accused of causing, can and will be created under different names/reasons, being an atheist does not prevent this, one bit.They are human after all.
And isn't Obama a Christian?In what way has he been kind only because he does not want to go to hell.
Well, to suggest that religious people aren't good because of perceived penalty or that it's mandated but because they want to be so makes them what? No different than any non-religious people who do the same thing.
I think it'd be rather stupid to suggest that atheists can't be bigots. But the difference being is that they don't have the excuse of indoctrination.
It's like I think I mentioned before. The religiosity of many voters is exploited by politicians. Definitely more divisively on the right due to the conservative nature of the religious, but they both do it. The lie of this country being founded on Christian principles is continually perpetuated by these people for benefit for their own political agendas. It was founded on the principle of religious freedom, which runs in direct opposition of what Christianity teaches, and nothing else.
And their supposedly religious principles running contrary to their own policies is nothing new. America didn't invent hypocrisy of this kind, it's in their own books of worship.
My comment was more on how the exploitation happens rather than the exploitation itself. The exploitation itself happens all over to varying degrees.... Consider how it has happened in SA over the past 15 years or so. For the most part it has fallen into the political control of what was called "21th century socialism" (though right now the whole thing is systematically ending and being replaced by right wing regimes). And leaders of each country have made the point that their agenda is not only political but they are also acting on the word of the lord and their social political agendas are also in some manner the work of the lord (maybe my words exaggerate the situation a bit but that is the gist of it). And on the other end you have the republican party using the same lord but talking about almost opposing values. Of course, in context both sides are equally wrong and stupid considering jesus predates socialism and capitalism by centuries and even millennia and most major denominations reject the idea of the whole thing favoring a political or economic ideology.
My comment was more on how the exploitation happens rather than the exploitation itself. The exploitation itself happens all over to varying degrees.... Consider how it has happened in SA over the past 15 years or so. For the most part it has fallen into the political control of what was called "21th century socialism" (though right now the whole thing is systematically ending and being replaced by right wing regimes). And leaders of each country have made the point that their agenda is not only political but they are also acting on the word of the lord and their social political agendas are also in some manner the work of the lord (maybe my words exaggerate the situation a bit but that is the gist of it). And on the other end you have the republican party using the same lord but talking about almost opposing values. Of course, in context both sides are equally wrong and stupid considering jesus predates socialism and capitalism by centuries and even millennia and most major denominations reject the idea of the whole thing favoring a political or economic ideology.
Repeating something over and over again doesn't make it true. The founders were deists, not Christians. And religious persecution is one of the many horrors condoned by the God of Abraham along with rape and genocide. Have you even read the book you keep bringing up?
I dont know what the point of bringing this up is, the old testament is a historical account while the new testament wipes away the old law and provides new laws. If the law could save people then there would have been no need for a messiah to have even come. Many of the things that people find horrific wouldnt have had to happen if man had not been sinful and actually followed the original law proposed instead of going their separate ways, which additionally wouldnt have had to happen if the first man and women hadn't sinned.
And its not like people need a higher power to commit rape and genocide.
Living life simply because a reward is promise for belief is quite a petty thing. You're essentially saying that the free will your god supposedly gave you is meaningless.
I don't see how it is petty when it leads to people doing the "right" thing. Shouldn't people be glad that people are doing good and not care about the reason behind it?
And their adherents never fail in bringing it up as some sort of excuse for the horrors they teach people and little children. That essentially doubting what they say means that they're doomed to eternal hell fire.
This is extreme and not a truth. Actually I can't even think of any children themed religion tales in Christianity that is teaching children horrors. If we use the most common stories like the birth of Christ (a nonbeliver was killing newborn babies in order to try to prevent the messiahs birth), Noah's ark (nonbelievers who weer committing heinous crimes were wiped away by divine intervention), Lion's din (a nonbeliever persecuted a follower of god for not putting the king as god), David and Goliath (nonbeliving people were invading and killing the chosen people of god), Moses in Egypt (nonbeliever persecuting and keeping gods chosen people in slavery), then we see that the reverse of your statement is more accurate, meaning we're taught that nonbelievers have constantly and consistently persecuted followers of God for some pretty petty reasons. From birth we're taught that we will be persecuted by nonbelievers.
And where in the bible did he ever life a sword against anyone, only one time his followers did and Jesus immediately healed the soldiers ear and rebuked the action that the apostle took. And the sword in the new testament is often referred to as being "the word of God, the scriptures".
Im still confused by what your point for this is, what is what you would picture a Christian leader of a country doing in war times when their country is attacked? Send up thoughts and prayers, and thats it? Being a follower of any religion doesn't mean youre impervious from having to make difficult or even challenging decisions that puts people in harm's way. I would think a good Christian would be led to making a decision on what is best for the people of the country they have been appointed to protect and serve.
Im still confused by what your point for this is, what is what you would picture a Christian leader of a country doing in war times when their country is attacked? Send up thoughts and prayers, and thats it? Being a follower of any religion doesn't mean youre impervious from having to make difficult or even challenging decisions that puts people in harm's way. I would think a good Christian would be led to making a decision on what is best for the people of the country they have been appointed to protect and serve.
A president is not a Christian leader. He's an official elected by the citizens of this country, christian and non-christian alike. Have you read the Constitution? Are you really this delusional?
My point in bringing this up is that you keep trying to replace Christian and American as words where you see fit. This isn't about whether it was right or wrong for us to do, but it's very clear that the Bible says it isn't (unless you are defending or spreading your faith, I guess).
I don't see how it is petty when it leads to people doing the "right" thing. Shouldn't people be glad that people are doing good and not care about the reason behind it?
This isn't a question of whether good deed need to be affected by their motivations. You're the one who keeps hedging morality with whether someone is pious or not. You're the one making ignorant and bigoted statements about atheists or non believers. As if any number of doctors or scientists or educators or anyone else who adopts secular principles shouldn't be president, when the Constitution adheres to strict secular principles and very much deliberately so.
This is extreme and not a truth. Actually I can't even think of any children themed religion tales in Christianity that is teaching children horrors. If we use the most common stories like the birth of Christ (a nonbeliver was killing newborn babies in order to try to prevent the messiahs birth), Noah's ark (nonbelievers who weer committing heinous crimes were wiped away by divine intervention), Lion's din (a nonbeliever persecuted a follower of god for not putting the king as god), David and Goliath (nonbeliving people were invading and killing the chosen people of god), Moses in Egypt (nonbeliever persecuting and keeping gods chosen people in slavery), then we see that the reverse of your statement is more accurate, meaning we're taught that nonbelievers have constantly and consistently persecuted followers of God for some pretty petty reasons. From birth we're taught that we will be persecuted by nonbelievers.
You're taught both, really. And maybe at some point in the scripture you might be able to reconcile with the fact that you shouldn't be this way yourself, but then you're also taught many contradictory things for many more books to come. Why does the Book of Revelation and the concept of Armageddon exist if non-Christians aren't supposed to have some sort of reckoning coming their way for their non-belief?
The question is do you think you need to be forgiven for what you are? If God made you this way, then why would you have to apologize for it or seek forgiveness from anyone? Why would you need fret over it at all? Why are you a member of a political party that would prefer to deny you equal rights as a citizen?
And where in the bible did he ever life a sword against anyone, only one time his followers did and Jesus immediately healed the soldiers ear and rebuked the action that the apostle took. And the sword in the new testament is often referred to as being "the word of God, the scriptures".
There's a whole host of people who've never committed an act of violence themselves but are still responsible for it, so this means nothing really. I can think of several Presidents, to be topical about it. Just think of the multitudes of horror that has been committed in the name of religion. Compare that to the multitudes of horror that has been committed in the name of science, logic, free thought....oh wait, you can't.
I see atheists with morals and values as far better human beings than religious people with morals and values because unlike most religious people, the atheists have good morals and values out of choice, not because they want to go to Heaven or avoid Hell. Most religious people who have good morals and values probably have so only because they believe it'll get them into Heaven. Where atheists don't need an excuse to be good human beings, most religious people either do or might.
