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M3J

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What kind of bullshit? And by "information at their fingers" do you mean places like CNN, MSNBC etc that have been caught on and off camera (recordings, audio, emails, etc) that all they are peddling is fiction for views? The Obama admin spied on Trump for years. Found nothing. DNC tried to trap him via his son. Nothing illegal/wrong came of it just the realization how low the DNC will go. Julian Assange looked into him (and others). Found nothing on him but everything "dirty" on Clinton. The only crime Trump has committed was offending the left field of politics with his "America/ns first" sentiments and the money grubbing, soulless scum of the right finding the concept of health care to be the work of the damn devil.

I think it is fearmongering to say things like that, something people have been saying since Day 1 of his presidency and all we have to show for these supposed dark times? All-time low unemployment, all time high with the DOW, hundreds of thousands of new jobs and promises of more by many companies, fewer harmful regulations, proper enforcement of our immigration laws (which keep us safer and saves us $$$), scaring ISIS off more than the red carpet they got under the last admin, horrible trade deal kill offs and now, as he works against two corrupt sides, trying to make a good HC solution that he promised during his campaign.

At the end of his term when he announces he's running again and the country is functioning better than it has in the last 16 years or at least 9, the left will scream he'll tear the world apart with bigotry but again nothing will come of it but the fearful rambling of the far left and right into the wind.
Trump has been caught lying millions of times as well, and yet that doesn't get mentioned? And I'm pretty sure Julian (if he even bothered to look into Trump) did find plenty on Trump but shared nothing as he wanted Hillary to lose. And no, he never offended the left wing with "America first" policy. He offended the left and people who aren't brainwashed idiots by lying and pretending to put America first when he's really putting himself first.

It's not fearmongering at all. WHat Trump says is fearmongering, from making Muslims look like enemies to claiming immigrants steal jobs. But then again, I find it extremely difficult to take most Trump supporters seriously, and your posts on him seem to be no exception.

And before you called me brainwashed, it was Trump himself that made me realize what a shit choice he is and what a shitty person he is. Not any "MSM" that Trump supporters are deluded into believing are fake.
I understand people's distrust of the mainstream media when it comes to any number of things, but I don't think them being "against" Trump's Presidency (outside of the Fox News talking heads) means that Trump is doing something/anything right. Nor is Trump any kind of remedy either. He's a completely different type of disease.
In fact, I'm pretty sure that most sources are "against" Trump because of the dumb things he's said and done. Trump supporters are just usually brainwashed into thinking otherwise, thanks to a brilliant con game from Trump himself.
 

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Well Trump being disliked by the media isn't why I think he's doing something right. I just think it kind of confirms that his agendas do not align with multi billion $ companies that aim to mass control news and that is a bit telling.
I don't think that multi-billion dollar corporations interests are directly related to the general attitude of mainstream media on the whole though. At least, populist liberal thinking can't be married with the agenda of the independently wealthy IMO, in fact it's more often the opposite.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Trump supporters are just usually brainwashed into thinking otherwise, thanks to a brilliant con game from Trump himself.
No, it just means that enough of his SUPPOSED policy viewpoints still align with theirs. Without giving any regard to his clear unfitness for the position or ineptitude. That doesn't mean they're loyal to him in any way though, there's enough evidence to the contrary in Congress. And enough polls suggest his support is dwindling by the day, so...
 

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Trump has been caught lying millions of times as well, and yet that doesn't get mentioned? And I'm pretty sure Julian (if he even bothered to look into Trump) did find plenty on Trump but shared nothing as he wanted Hillary to lose. And no, he never offended the left wing with "America first" policy. He offended the left and people who aren't brainwashed idiots by lying and pretending to put America first when he's really putting himself first.
Lies? You mean like that Muslim thing you mentioned before which was taken out of context and wasn't even a lie? Failure to get things to go through due to Republicans etc not wanting to work with him does not make his promises lies.

So....I'm supposed to condemn Trump on nothing because you want him to be guilty of something? And are you seriously saying Julian is biased here? He found nothing on Trump because there is nothing. He looked into everyone because he didn't want corruption to lead. CNN even admitted to there being nothing. FBI has nothing. CIA has nothing. NSA has nothing. Trump is clean. And Julian disagrees plenty with Trump too.

Though yea, you're right. Julian didn't want a scumbag liar more corrupt than a 40s cartoon villain to win. That much is true, but wanting her to lose doesn't somehow make him Trump's lapdog or something you can't trust.

If he had found something on Trump, people would care a whole lot more about what Julian has to say. That is fact.

It's not fearmongering at all. WHat Trump says is fearmongering, from making Muslims look like enemies to claiming immigrants steal jobs. But then again, I find it extremely difficult to take most Trump supporters seriously, and your posts on him seem to be no exception.
No, saying Trump's going to make it "the dark days" without any evidence to support that horrendous claim and evidence that exists claiming the opposite is in fact fearmongering. You're trying to convince people of something through fear based on nothing. Just like it was fearmongering for the Republicans to say Obamacare would kill millions of people within its first year. You're just more comfortable with using it when it suits an agenda you approve of.

Trump has never made "Muslims look like enemies". Just go to r/the_donald. Plenty of Muslims, gays, atheists, liberals, republicans, Sikhs etc there that will tell you the same thing. He has only ever referred to Islamic terrorists and the very real fact that the migrants freely being let into Germany, Sweden etc have caused nothing but crime jumping up because it isn't properly vetted or controlled. He's never once said Muslims are evil or that they are our enemy. Not once.

Illegal immigrants don't steal jobs, huh? So what are they doing here if it isn't to find jobs? Unless you mean actual legal immigrants? If so, Trump never said anything like that either. The left is just so stupid they hear one thing and assume something entirely different.

That's okay. I'm used to people against Trump just disregarding me because of who I support or because I point out the obvious bias, lies and corruption against him. I didn't expect much difference here, either. I do it for the few that won't though.

And before you called me brainwashed, it was Trump himself that made me realize what a shit choice he is and what a shitty person he is. Not any "MSM" that Trump supporters are deluded into believing are fake.
Okay, good for you, but it would still be ridiculous to claim MSM isn't biased and pushing one side. They've admitted to it themselves. Denying this would just be crazy.

Funny though that everyone who actually meets Trump finds him to be kind, respectable and compassionate. Even the media loved him before he ran for president. Tells you something, doesn't it? He just says things you don't want to hear though and he's a "shit" person for it.

In fact, I'm pretty sure that most sources are "against" Trump because of the dumb things he's said and done. Trump supporters are just usually brainwashed into thinking otherwise, thanks to a brilliant con game from Trump himself.
Dumb according to them, sure, doesn't mean it actually is. This is coming from people who think, apparently, that only white people can speak English or that reading wikileaks is illegal. lol

Yes....I'm brainwashed. I've seen Trump in person, I've gone to his rallies (okay, once lol) where the media can't twist and hide everything that goes on. I've seen the DNC paid protesters cause riots and bigotry at his rally just so CNN can claim we're all racist bigots without education. I haven't always been a Trump supporter, either, and I hate the Republicans. His platform was just really good. It fit what I wanted as a struggling poor person and the fact that the person who was promising these things have only ever stood up for people like me was an extra bonus. You can sit and claim he's a shit person all you want, but his history and multiple attempts to find dirt on him coming up empty shows differently.

I don't think that multi-billion dollar corporations interests are directly related to the general attitude of mainstream media on the whole though. At least, populist liberal thinking can't be married with the agenda of the independently wealthy IMO, in fact it's more often the opposite.
Though I meant the multi-billion $ media like CNN, I disagree entirely. Big networks like CNN have agendas that perfectly match up with big companies (who help pay for them) because it allows them to control the market and get their own agendas out there. Just look at the people who invest in CNN/MSM and then look into the politicians they support. Mayne not all of the interests align, but most of them do and that's why they pay for propaganda like CNN etc.

No, it just means that enough of his SUPPOSED policy viewpoints still align with theirs. Without giving any regard to his clear unfitness for the position or ineptitude. That doesn't mean they're loyal to him in any way though, there's enough evidence to the contrary in Congress. And enough polls suggest his support is dwindling by the day, so...
I wouldn't trust those polls if I were you, at least don't rely so heavily on them. The same polls for months said nobody liked Trump and that Trump would lose the election by a huge margin. They were wrong. They are still wrong to this day. They manipulate it by getting people who already didn't like Trump or by filling the survey with people who will agree with them.

Most Republicans are against him though because he stands for something they hate.
 

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It got a bit long. If I rambled too long on one point or wasn't clear enough, just say so. I'll be glad to elaborate. I was a bit tired writing it. :hi

I'm referring to the story CNN, Washington Post, New York Times, BBC, MSNBC, NBC, Vice etc won't report on. When the Obama admin requested a FISA warrant on not only Trump's transition team and adviser (Carter Page) but on Trump himself, though they deny this. This is were the majority of phone call leaks etc came out, like for Michael Flynn. Susan Rice took the downfall for these actions.

We also have former deputy assistant secretary of defense under Obama, Evelyn Farkas, admitting there were dozens of attempts by the Obama administration to obtain information on Trump in whatever means necessary. Even using Carter's dealings with Russia as an excuse to say there was collusion between Trump and Russia.


Nunes also confirmed the information that was collected or trying to be collected had, and I quote, does not "have anything to do with Russia." (he's seen dozens of the reports by the way). This is also how much of the unmasking [for Trump] came to be. It speaks volumes how after this information came out the FBI refused (and still is, I'm assuming) to cooperate with the House of Representatives' investigation into the [NSA] surveillance of the Trump campaign. Here's some of what he said:


(the letter deals with the surveillance, the unmasking etc)

Over 30,000 people additionally were unmasked under the Obama admin connected to Trump, ranging from just supporters to his staff, to Congress etc.

And before the election conclusion, Hillary Clinton tweeted something very telling. Information (though unsurprising false) grabbed via the spying. Information collected prior to Trump winning. Information she would not have had otherwise.



And yea, if it is up to the Democrats, it'll go on for years despite them having absolutely nothing to proof their fiction. Simply talking to or meeting with a Russian doesn't = collusion with Russia. The fear the left has of Russia/Russians is astounding...

It most certainly is at an all time low. And yes unemployment fell some under Obama, sure (and I applaud him for what he could do), but are you trying to say that current growth is the doing of Obama? It didn't somehow magically start working the moment he stepped out of office. This is because of Trump's efforts at creating deals with getting companies to promise or create more jobs, opening up coal mining again etc etc. All of which Obama himself said was "impossible", that it would require a "magical wand".

And I agree about that. I do not want him to just ride off his success and just assume everything is going fine like Obama started to do. That's when it starts to fall and most likely fall harder than before.

Hmm, I find that hard to agree with. He was pro-immigration laws? Even though Obama enforced immigration law when he, on television, asked illegal immigrants to vote? When he advocated and allowed "sanctuary cities" to exist? When he refused to call them "illegal immigrants" but instead "dreamers"? When he turned a blind eye to the dozens and dozens of criminals who crossed our border and harmed citizens? No...no he didn't respect or enforce our laws. That's evident by his own actions and words and the state in which ICE has been dealing with now that Trump is in office.

Deporting illegals quietly behind screen while vocally talking against it and refusing to enforce our laws (look above) is not supporting it. Even if he deported 3m people.

He's not even a year in and his progress has been pretty great against ISIS, even while the left leaks classified information that destroys sensitive ISIS related missions and endangers its operatives. He's got to work against ISIS and domestic groups wishing to undermine him anyway they can.

Trump's dealing in a post-Obama world where he released terrorists that have, unsurprisingly, gone on to commit more acts of terror or rejoin their terrorist cells.

And okay...so if not being able to eradicate ISIS in 30 days (which is not what he said) makes Trump a liar, what about all of Obama's broken, forgotten or disregarded promises? Is Obama a liar? Or is he a victim of circumstances? Or do we just condemn Trump for these things? And his plan was to fight ISIS, something the previous admin was pretty reluctant to even talk about or call it what it is.

(And no, he has a plan, but the left is whining that it looks "too much like Obama's". And this is what Trump said, by the way:



He also said he'd bomb the hell out of them. Which using the MOAB, killing a little over 100 terrorists, seems like "bombing the hell out of them" to me. Also, he did voice some aspects of the plan he said he had. Even...god I hate mentioning it...politifact doesn't consider this a lie etc.

I'd just like to focus more on the fact that he never said he'd defeat ISIS within 30 days. He said he'd demand a plan to defeat ISIS within 30 days. Which he did. And given the fact that his main problem with previous plans was that they spoke about their plans too much, why would he be screaming it off the roof tops?



I said "kill offs". He has killed off trade deals that would not have benefited us whatsoever. He's also in negotiations constantly at trying to replace them with better deals.

Okay? Sure, it could take months, but it is better than letting a deal that would ruin us go through. And what makes you think it was "practically" dead? Hillary Clinton*, Obama and many other liberals were very fond of it by referring to it as a "gold standard" and all.

*As soon as a wiser business man pointed out it was crap, she changed her tune. Which she has no problem with admitting she does just get more voters/allies.



He didn't just want something passed. He does, however, want it repealed immediately as it is crap wrapped in christmas wrapping paper.

He's been trying to do nothing but that. The trick is getting the left and the right to help, repeal and pass something that is good or they will accept (which is almost impossible for the Republicans as they disagree with the platform he ran/wants).

The bills proposed don't deliver enough for us, Trump or the promises though and I agree on that. Now that the Republicans have turned their backs though it'll be a lot harder. At this point, if we know for a fact they won't play nice and help create a better HC with the Democrats, I'd settle on at least a skinny repeal of Obamacare. The best step taken so far was the removal of that penalty.

(The latest news is that Trump is considering an EO about HC by the way)
That video, if I understood it correctly at least, is about obama preserving the russia-trump intel basically by disseminating it through the intelligence community. That doesn't support what you are suggesting....

As for the letter thing, what? So she got it via spies but it was false? That makes no sense, why would spies provide something false? If there were spies involved then their job would have been to provide truthful information. What is the point of spying only to have them produce false information? Just say that was literally made up. This is every bit as moronic as when trump claims the white house leaks are simultaneously false and illegal. Which confirms the leaks in fact came from the white house... But for some reason they are also false. But if they are false then they are not really leaks, it's just some asshole making stuff up.

As for trump's effect on the economy: The first thing to consider here is that presidents under normal circumstances do not have an effect on such a thing. Heck, even with obama the greatest effect he could have had is the bailouts. Then wall street went on it's merry way on its own. And even if presidents did have such an effect on the economy 1) it is too soon for trump to have had any even if he had passed ground breaking legislation and 2) the economy has basically the same trend as last year. Wall street has been making record breaking profit for years now. Giving this to trump, who has not even passed legislation meaningful to the economy makes no sense. As for the deals with the companies you mention, most of those have failed. Even the carrier deal already failed in spite of it not being that big a success to begin with. They are relocating anyways. Heck, as far as the deals with companies he talked about, he has done exactly the opposite of what he suggested. Trump said he was going to be tough with companies, that they wouldn't be able to leave without consequence. But when the time comes he offers them tax cuts to stay. And they don't even stay.... Those deals he talked about were never a good way to deal with that to begin with, that is not how you lead a country... Not to mention that the jobs saved by trump with these deals were usually went at the most up to the several thousand jobs. Even though the economy been generating over 150k jobs per month for years now (with some exceptions but it it averages out to about that). Even assuming trump can have an effect on this, he never had a chance of doing so via deals like the carrier thing.... It makes for good pr but that is about it.

As for the border thing you are suggesting... None of it makes any sense. Just look up the actual statistics on immigration through the border. The entirety of what trump has said about immigration of mexico he has pulled from the orangest corner of his ass. And if he actually did away with nafta or imposed tariffs on mexico as he claimed he will that only only result in more immigration because the mexican economy would be worst off and mexicans would have more motivation to cross the border. The bulk of what trump says suggests regarding immigration and free trade does not make a shred of sense. FFS the guy talks about the trade deficit with mexico as if he was talking about cash leaving a company. This is not a situation comparable to what businesses go through, the notion of such a thing is astonishingly stupid. So trump is using information he pulled out of his ass to talk about things he in no form or context understands and pushing for policy on that made up information. Good luck with that, totally won't backfire.

Trump during his campaign basically advocated for universal health care as in other developed nations. However over his presidency so far he has actually pushed for the stuff paul ryan and the freedom caucus came up. Heck, even while pushing for the AHCA trump went out of his way to complement australia's universal health care... Even though Australia's health care system is the complete opposite of what republicans have been pushing for under trump. How does that make a shred of sense? Rather than the stuff trump talked about during the campaign he has been going with the alternative republicans came up with, an alternative made by people who believe it is inherently wrong for the government to provide any form of health care to people. The only thing I can conclude from that is that trump either know what is in the legislation he has been trying to pass or doesn't give a shit. As far as replacements for obamacare go, literally all trump has tried to pass is the most extreme opposite of what he has suggested the US should have. He has been fairly consistent of repealing obamacare however as far as replacements go he has blatantly lied simply because the replacements he has pushed for are the opposite of what he offered. And then he goes on about letting obamacare fail on its own. Even his own party acknowledges such a thing is astoundingly stupid. Obamacare doesn't even work in a way that could happen... And when he got more specific about it, he talked about withholding the subsidies payments which should go to insurers.. Which would indeed throw the marketplaces into chaos and raise premiums... Which means the obamacare failure he describes only happens if trump goes out of his way to sabotage it and take health care from god knows how many people. Trump doesn't know crap about health care. He doesn't have a plan. He never did.

Trump absolutely and repeatedly said he would defeat isis within 30 days with his secret plan. repeatedly. And then when he got into office he ordered his generals to come up with a plan to defeat isis in 30 days.... Not to mention that his "complain" that before they spoke about their plans too much was stupid. I recall him complaining about the announcement of the mosul invasion. The point of the announcement was to prepare civilians for it, to reduce casualties... Which makes perfect sense. And most of the stuff he talks about in this context is equally stupid. And even if it's as you say with trump saying his plan to begin with was to give an order to defeat isis in 30 days... Come on, how is that not astonishingly stupid? The implication here would be that ISIS is a problem because obama did not think of ordering the military to destroy them in 30 days. How do you not feel personally insulted at hearing such an astonishingly stupid thing? It's beyond asinine. Heck, under this logic trump would be a moron, why not just give the order for the military to come up with a plan to defeat isis in 30 seconds? As for bombing the hell out of ISIS as trump said... THE US WAS ALREADY DOING THAT. The criticism that the trump administration is doing quite literally the same as the obama administration is completely valid. The only things that stand out so far are the MOAB, which was ultimately pointless as the world ultimately took that as the US merely putting up a show, and the bombing of the syrian military base... which did not really have that big an effect and otherwise wouldn't have been too unusual during obama's administration either. Ah, I just remembered he also ended the program to arm syrian rebels. Which actually makes sense, the US getting involved in this way in conflicts is historically not a good thing. So that is one point in favor out of... I don't even know how many failures. So basically, trump has in essence merely continued what obama was already doing except for the syrian rebel support and the dramatic increase in civilian casualties. I don't see how any of this amounts to a success for trump.
 

Styx

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That video, if I understood it correctly at least, is about obama preserving the russia-trump intel basically by disseminating it through the intelligence community. That doesn't support what you are suggesting....
Listen carefully and then read Nunes' reports. They aren't supposed to be individual pieces of information. She clearly discusses information unrelated to the fake Russia collusion story. Nunes even mentioned the numerous reports made prior to this "investigation" being that they contained information completely unrelated to any Russia story. They were in fact spying (whatever word you want to use) on Trump and his team and collecting general information on them.

Farkas just wanted all of the information out there, Russia collusion or not. Of course I'm not sure how heavy the claim is that the Trump Tower was bugged but considering that the FBI won't deny it or comply with the investigation, it is starting to look pretty possible.

As for the letter thing, what? So she got it via spies but it was false? That makes no sense, why would spies provide something false? If there were spies involved then their job would have been to provide truthful information. What is the point of spying only to have them produce false information? Just say that was literally made up. This is every bit as moronic as when trump claims the white house leaks are simultaneously false and illegal. Which confirms the leaks in fact came from the white house... But for some reason they are also false. But if they are false then they are not really leaks, it's just some asshole making stuff up.
It makes perfect sense. She was privy to the information that Trump and his team were being wiretapped/etc for this supposed Russia collusion on the elections (that didn't even, according to them, happen yet), though nothing came of it. The DNC already knew this though, they just wanted a cover story. The reason to mention this is that she was aware of the spying on Trump and his team. The point of providing the tweet is to show that.

And just because a warrant was made does not = guilt. Trump was in fact tapped/spied on, just for false reasons. The information they were seeking simply didn't exist. Still doesn't.

So you're assuming just because they're supposed to be truthful they are and that just because they were put on the witch hunt, they found something legit...?

The things leaked were just names, phone calls, emails. What is false is the supposed collusion connection. Otherwise I request that you show me this damning proof that Trump had Russia hack our elections to make him win. Simply talking to or having business with a Russian does not = guilt despite what some Democrats/MSM would have you believe.

As for trump's effect on the economy: The first thing to consider here is that presidents under normal circumstances do not have an effect on such a thing. Heck, even with obama the greatest effect he could have had is the bailouts. Then wall street went on it's merry way on its own. And even if presidents did have such an effect on the economy 1) it is too soon for trump to have had any even if he had passed ground breaking legislation and 2) the economy has basically the same trend as last year. Wall street has been making record breaking profit for years now. Giving this to trump, who has not even passed legislation meaningful to the economy makes no sense. As for the deals with the companies you mention, most of those have failed. Even the carrier deal already failed in spite of it not being that big a success to begin with. They are relocating anyways. Heck, as far as the deals with companies he talked about, he has done exactly the opposite of what he suggested. Trump said he was going to be tough with companies, that they wouldn't be able to leave without consequence. But when the time comes he offers them tax cuts to stay. And they don't even stay.... Those deals he talked about were never a good way to deal with that to begin with, that is not how you lead a country... Not to mention that the jobs saved by trump with these deals were usually went at the most up to the several thousand jobs. Even though the economy been generating over 150k jobs per month for years now (with some exceptions but it it averages out to about that). Even assuming trump can have an effect on this, he never had a chance of doing so via deals like the carrier thing.... It makes for good pr but that is about it.
"Under normal circumstances". Exactly. Trump's efforts have made an impact. Maybe they are Jesus level big like some Republicans/supporters are making it out to be, but it is an incredible start. One that his predecessor/s couldn't even do or even thought possible. It isn't too soon for Trump's efforts to show either and the impact is nowhere near the same as last year or the years before that. His tax-cutting reforms have made huge impacts even after eight years of economic weakness under Obama. Not even MSM can deny Trump is responsible for this, so why do you say this?

And getting jobs back, making deals that benefit us etc isn't how you lead a country? And which deals failed anyways and how can getting companies to promise hundreds of thousands of jobs be just a good thing for PR and not for the country?

Something worth considering to read:
https://www.gop.com/president-trump-bolstering-americas-economy/

As for the border thing you are suggesting... None of it makes any sense. Just look up the actual statistics on immigration through the border. The entirety of what trump has said about immigration of mexico he has pulled from the orangest corner of his ass. And if he actually did away with nafta or imposed tariffs on mexico as he claimed he will that only only result in more immigration because the mexican economy would be worst off and mexicans would have more motivation to cross the border. The bulk of what trump says suggests regarding immigration and free trade does not make a shred of sense. FFS the guy talks about the trade deficit with mexico as if he was talking about cash leaving a company. This is not a situation comparable to what businesses go through, the notion of such a thing is astonishingly stupid. So trump is using information he pulled out of his ass to talk about things he in no form or context understands and pushing for policy on that made up information. Good luck with that, totally won't backfire.
I have looked it up. The illegal migration across our border was astoundingly high and flourished even better under a President that allowed it. This migration has caused havoc across our nation as criminals can just walk right over and have done dozens of times to commit heinous acts on legal immigrants and U.S born citizens. Like Kate or all those little girls being brutally beaten and raped by criminal illegals or the children being taken for human trafficking.

And yet immigration is at a low, illegals are being kicked out in waves and there are even illegals self-deporting or trying to migrate to Canada. You say it won't do any good or that it hasn't and yet it has. He may not be able to get Mexico to pay for the wall (but that leaked call made it sound like the Mexican president was considering a talk on how to) but the things he has done, promised and is currently delivering on (the wall, ICE agents actually work etc) have made an significant impact not only on immigration but border security. The lowest seen in nearly 17 years.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39505999

Or is that too not able to be credited to Trump? And you are saying it makes no sense, but how? Can you please explain other than insulting him please?

Trump during his campaign basically advocated for universal health care as in other developed nations. However over his presidency so far he has actually pushed for the stuff paul ryan and the freedom caucus came up. Heck, even while pushing for the AHCA trump went out of his way to complement australia's universal health care... Even though Australia's health care system is the complete opposite of what republicans have been pushing for under trump. How does that make a shred of sense? Rather than the stuff trump talked about during the campaign he has been going with the alternative republicans came up with, an alternative made by people who believe it is inherently wrong for the government to provide any form of health care to people. The only thing I can conclude from that is that trump either know what is in the legislation he has been trying to pass or doesn't give a shit. As far as replacements for obamacare go, literally all trump has tried to pass is the most extreme opposite of what he has suggested the US should have. He has been fairly consistent of repealing obamacare however as far as replacements go he has blatantly lied simply because the replacements he has pushed for are the opposite of what he offered. And then he goes on about letting obamacare fail on its own. Even his own party acknowledges such a thing is astoundingly stupid. Obamacare doesn't even work in a way that could happen... And when he got more specific about it, he talked about withholding the subsidies payments which should go to insurers.. Which would indeed throw the marketplaces into chaos and raise premiums... Which means the obamacare failure he describes only happens if trump goes out of his way to sabotage it and take health care from god knows how many people. Trump doesn't know crap about health care. He doesn't have a plan. He never did.
Please back these claims up that he wants what the snake Paul Ryan wants. As far as I have seen from him, he just wants the Republicans to act at this point, which the majority of his voters now want too since it has become clear the platform he ran on would have the Republicans rather kill themselves than ever help achieve. These people are almost entirely incapable of bipartisanship, especially on health care.

He most certainly has a plan. He can't act on it with opposition from the left completely and the right. Scum like McCain and Paul Ryan simply won't let it happen, though Rand Paul has recently suggested Trump may issue an EO about using his platform HC or having Rand improve upon it.

This is the platform he ran on (well not a direct link because I can't find the new gov link. Hope you don't mind a user explaining some of it. Just ignore the user if you want and focus on the bits he quoted). He wants it to at least be the backbone of whatever plan the Democrats and Republicans can agree upon:

https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald...ma_industry_and_here/?st=j5y6s0ni&sh=de3330ff

I just don't understand how the Republicans can complain about Obamacare for eight damn years and constantly cry for a repeal and NEVER come up with anything if they knew the wouldn't accept it, Trump's suggestions or anything. Talk about incompetent, corrupt morons...

Trump absolutely and repeatedly said he would defeat isis within 30 days with his secret plan. repeatedly. And then when he got into office he ordered his generals to come up with a plan to defeat isis in 30 days.... Not to mention that his "complain" that before they spoke about their plans too much was stupid. I recall him complaining about the announcement of the mosul invasion. The point of the announcement was to prepare civilians for it, to reduce casualties... Which makes perfect sense. And most of the stuff he talks about in this context is equally stupid. And even if it's as you say with trump saying his plan to begin with was to give an order to defeat isis in 30 days... Come on, how is that not astonishingly stupid? The implication here would be that ISIS is a problem because obama did not think of ordering the military to destroy them in 30 days. How do you not feel personally insulted at hearing such an astonishingly stupid thing? It's beyond asinine. Heck, under this logic trump would be a moron, why not just give the order for the military to come up with a plan to defeat isis in 30 seconds? As for bombing the hell out of ISIS as trump said... THE US WAS ALREADY DOING THAT. The criticism that the trump administration is doing quite literally the same as the obama administration is completely valid. The only things that stand out so far are the MOAB, which was ultimately pointless as the world ultimately took that as the US merely putting up a show, and the bombing of the syrian military base... which did not really have that big an effect and otherwise wouldn't have been too unusual during obama's administration either. Ah, I just remembered he also ended the program to arm syrian rebels. Which actually makes sense, the US getting involved in this way in conflicts is historically not a good thing. So that is one point in favor out of... I don't even know how many failures. So basically, trump has in essence merely continued what obama was already doing except for the syrian rebel support and the dramatic increase in civilian casualties. I don't see how any of this amounts to a success for trump.
No he didn't and I encourage you to provide the text and videos of him saying it. I provided you with proof that he did not say he would destroy ISIS in thirty days but that he would demand from Congress within 30 days a plan at defeating ISIS. Again i will quote what he actually said:

"We are going to convene my top generals and give them a simple instruction," Trump said on Sept. 6, "They will have 30 days to submit to the Oval Office a plan for soundly and quickly defeating ISIS."
The above was said at a campaign appearance in North Carolina in September.

Another time in which he said this:
(ii) Within 30 days, a preliminary draft of the Plan to defeat ISIS shall be submitted to the President by the Secretary of Defense.
Sources: https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/01/28/plan-defeat-islamic-state-iraq

He has though said he has a plan, which is is reluctant to share because he doesn't want it to get out/hurt the efforts.

How is Trump saying he will demand Congress to come up with a comprehensive plan by 30 days "stupid"? And no, the implication isn't that Obama "did not think" of ordering the military to kill off ISIS and so it is his problem (though ISIS is his/the U.S problem). The implication is that Obama didn't "do enough" to target ISIS.

I'm well aware the U.S was already bombing them. I don't recall saying otherwise? The presence of some action prior does not mean the action taken was "strong" enough. Trump is going to push harder against ISIS not only with U.S methods alone but is seeking help with allies and other countries, like with trying to improve relations with Russia so we can tack terrorism together. I'm not trying to say Obama did nothing on this matter. I just don't think he did enough and neither does Trump or many of his supporters.

You don't see it as success because you don't want to....the left is so deranged by Trump that they even tried to call him evil for trying to help Charlie Gard. No matter what Trump does people never credit it to him unless it is something accountable to a failure in their eyes. It was the same way with the right when Obama was in.
 

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Listen carefully and then read Nunes' reports. They aren't supposed to be individual pieces of information. She clearly discusses information unrelated to the fake Russia collusion story. Nunes even mentioned the numerous reports made prior to this "investigation" being that they contained information completely unrelated to any Russia story. They were in fact spying (whatever word you want to use) on Trump and his team and collecting general information on them.

Farkas just wanted all of the information out there, Russia collusion or not. Of course I'm not sure how heavy the claim is that the Trump Tower was bugged but considering that the FBI won't deny it or comply with the investigation, it is starting to look pretty possible.

It makes perfect sense. She was privy to the information that Trump and his team were being wiretapped/etc for this supposed Russia collusion on the elections (that didn't even, according to them, happen yet), though nothing came of it. The DNC already knew this though, they just wanted a cover story. The reason to mention this is that she was aware of the spying on Trump and his team. The point of providing the tweet is to show that.

And just because a warrant was made does not = guilt. Trump was in fact tapped/spied on, just for false reasons. The information they were seeking simply didn't exist. Still doesn't.

So you're assuming just because they're supposed to be truthful they are and that just because they were put on the witch hunt, they found something legit...?

The things leaked were just names, phone calls, emails. What is false is the supposed collusion connection. Otherwise I request that you show me this damning proof that Trump had Russia hack our elections to make him win. Simply talking to or having business with a Russian does not = guilt despite what some Democrats/MSM would have you believe.

"Under normal circumstances". Exactly. Trump's efforts have made an impact. Maybe they are Jesus level big like some Republicans/supporters are making it out to be, but it is an incredible start. One that his predecessor/s couldn't even do or even thought possible. It isn't too soon for Trump's efforts to show either and the impact is nowhere near the same as last year or the years before that. His tax-cutting reforms have made huge impacts even after eight years of economic weakness under Obama. Not even MSM can deny Trump is responsible for this, so why do you say this?

And getting jobs back, making deals that benefit us etc isn't how you lead a country? And which deals failed anyways and how can getting companies to promise hundreds of thousands of jobs be just a good thing for PR and not for the country?

Something worth considering to read:
https://www.gop.com/president-trump-bolstering-americas-economy/

I have looked it up. The illegal migration across our border was astoundingly high and flourished even better under a President that allowed it. This migration has caused havoc across our nation as criminals can just walk right over and have done dozens of times to commit heinous acts on legal immigrants and U.S born citizens. Like Kate or all those little girls being brutally beaten and raped by criminal illegals or the children being taken for human trafficking.

And yet immigration is at a low, illegals are being kicked out in waves and there are even illegals self-deporting or trying to migrate to Canada. You say it won't do any good or that it hasn't and yet it has. He may not be able to get Mexico to pay for the wall (but that leaked call made it sound like the Mexican president was considering a talk on how to) but the things he has done, promised and is currently delivering on (the wall, ICE agents actually work etc) have made an significant impact not only on immigration but border security. The lowest seen in nearly 17 years.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39505999

Or is that too not able to be credited to Trump? And you are saying it makes no sense, but how? Can you please explain other than insulting him please?

Please back these claims up that he wants what the snake Paul Ryan wants. As far as I have seen from him, he just wants the Republicans to act at this point, which the majority of his voters now want too since it has become clear the platform he ran on would have the Republicans rather kill themselves than ever help achieve. These people are almost entirely incapable of bipartisanship, especially on health care.

He most certainly has a plan. He can't act on it with opposition from the left completely and the right. Scum like McCain and Paul Ryan simply won't let it happen, though Rand Paul has recently suggested Trump may issue an EO about using his platform HC or having Rand improve upon it.

This is the platform he ran on (well not a direct link because I can't find the new gov link. Hope you don't mind a user explaining some of it. Just ignore the user if you want and focus on the bits he quoted). He wants it to at least be the backbone of whatever plan the Democrats and Republicans can agree upon:

https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald...ma_industry_and_here/?st=j5y6s0ni&sh=de3330ff

I just don't understand how the Republicans can complain about Obamacare for eight damn years and constantly cry for a repeal and NEVER come up with anything if they knew the wouldn't accept it, Trump's suggestions or anything. Talk about incompetent, corrupt morons...

No he didn't and I encourage you to provide the text and videos of him saying it. I provided you with proof that he did not say he would destroy ISIS in thirty days but that he would demand from Congress within 30 days a plan at defeating ISIS. Again i will quote what he actually said:

The above was said at a campaign appearance in North Carolina in September.

Another time in which he said this:

Sources: https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2017/01/28/plan-defeat-islamic-state-iraq

He has though said he has a plan, which is is reluctant to share because he doesn't want it to get out/hurt the efforts.

How is Trump saying he will demand Congress to come up with a comprehensive plan by 30 days "stupid"? And no, the implication isn't that Obama "did not think" of ordering the military to kill off ISIS and so it is his problem (though ISIS is his/the U.S problem). The implication is that Obama didn't "do enough" to target ISIS.

I'm well aware the U.S was already bombing them. I don't recall saying otherwise? The presence of some action prior does not mean the action taken was "strong" enough. Trump is going to push harder against ISIS not only with U.S methods alone but is seeking help with allies and other countries, like with trying to improve relations with Russia so we can tack terrorism together. I'm not trying to say Obama did nothing on this matter. I just don't think he did enough and neither does Trump or many of his supporters.

You don't see it as success because you don't want to....the left is so deranged by Trump that they even tried to call him evil for trying to help Charlie Gard. No matter what Trump does people never credit it to him unless it is something accountable to a failure in their eyes. It was the same way with the right when Obama was in.
I have watched that video a couple of times but they specifically mention intel the white house has on trump's staff and their connections to russians. I recall there were reports about incidental spying on someone related to trump but those were in the context of spying on a russian criminal that lived in one of the places built by trump or when spying on a foreign russian official. However the story basically ended there, and in regards to trump he merely claimed he felt vindicated and didn't mention this later on. He didn't push for a investigation of this, there were never actual investigations on this and even trump's party seemed to accept this. So... I am not sure there is anything to go on regarding trump and his people specifically being spied on.

Being spied on for false information makes absolutely no sense... And it makes no sense with the stuff the administration said or what you are suggesting. The claim that trump was spied on, no information came out of that, and then they turned to literally making stuff up is not consistent with anything that has been said here. Not even trump has made that claim.

Illegal immigration did not increase with obama.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/27/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/
https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/president-obamas-mixed-legacy-immigration
Illegal immigration has been declining for a decade or so by now for a number of reasons.... Which is convenient for trump as if the trends that have been there for a decade maintain themselves he can claim success on this front literally without doing anything. Or claim whatever policy he enacted is successful regardless of whether it actually did anything. Which incidentally, though on a different topic, he will also do on jobs returning from overseas. Automation has, in some industries, eradicated the jobs that made said industries leave to places with cheaper labor. So now that those jobs are gone, there is less reason for those industries to stay in, say, china or mexico. Of course, that doesn't apply to all industries, say carrier who is leaving in spite of taking the money trump gave them to stay, but it will over time apply to more and more industries. It is very convenient to make promises where no matter what you do what you offer will likely happen.

Back it up? Trump literally got behind the plan made by paul ryan. He got his party together and literally threatened them to get them to pass it. What else do you want? And when the revised AHCA passed, he immediately complemented the house republicans over it and did everything he could to get senate republicans to pass it. What else could you want on that front? We had months over this chickanery and trump going out of his way to support it.

Don't be ridiculous, if trump had a healthcare plan he would have said what it is already. Universal healthcare or medicaid for all are very well liked policies by voters on both ends of the spectrum. Sure, republicans would hate it but sizeable amount of their voters support such things. If trump had such a plan there wouldn't be much risk to him making it public. It would be what his voters wanted, people who voted against him would get behind that. Trump is simply being blantantly dishonest here, otherwise he would have never made any effort at all to pass bills which are effectively the most extreme opposite of what he offered during his campaign.

What is the idea that obama didn't bomb them enough based on? Obama threw billions and billions of dollars worth of bombs at isis... So what exactly wasn't enough? What else could have been done? These are not people that are going to be intimidated by more bombs. When has that strategy ever worked? There is a reason trump has essentially continued obama's plan to deal with isis (with a few, less than positive, differences though). The only mayor shift trump has done in this regard does not even pertain to isis but rather syria (with stopping the arming of rebels).

But.... what successes are you talking about? You haven't really mentioned anything that couldn't reasonably be attributed to factors other than trump. Be it on the economy (where presidents in general have way less power than people think), foreign policy (where he has basically continued what obama has done with the bonus of increased civilian casualties), domestic policy (he hasn't passed any of the major points of his agenda...). Trump's first big win will most likely be tax reform which should still be a few months away at least (of course, whether that is a good or bad thing is debatable).
 

Styx

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FBI email dumps heavily suggest collusion with the media and DOJ to hide tarmac meeting. If y'all don't remember, Comey and others lied/denied multiple times that this meeting even existed. :noworry

http://therightscoop.com/breaking-f...and-doj-to-squash-2016-lynch-clinton-meeting/
(scroll down to view the emails)

Also, Jeff Sessions will be investigating the leaks of classified information (such as sensitive discussions with foreign leaders).



@ kkck

I have watched that video a couple of times but they specifically mention intel the white house has on trump's staff and their connections to russians. I recall there were reports about incidental spying on someone related to trump but those were in the context of spying on a russian criminal that lived in one of the places built by trump or when spying on a foreign russian official. However the story basically ended there, and in regards to trump he merely claimed he felt vindicated and didn't mention this later on. He didn't push for a investigation of this, there were never actual investigations on this and even trump's party seemed to accept this. So... I am not sure there is anything to go on regarding trump and his people specifically being spied on.
Okay, so what the numerous reports Nunes himself saw, even the unfinished reports? Additional information, incidental communications (unrelated to the Russian collusion probe), by his transition team and dozens of people were in fact spied on and unmasked, with their communications being leaked out. This included information unrelated to their collusion probe. It means they listened in, recorded etc on unrelated people and communications (which led to mass unmaskings). How is this not spying on Trump and his team? Susan Rice even acknowledges this happened, she just denies it was for political reasons or "criminal".

Oh, yea, Trump didn't push for an investigation or anything. At several points Nunes mentioned that the FBI refused to comply with their probe into the potential of criminal activity beyond the legal collusion information digs.

Being spied on for false information makes absolutely no sense... And it makes no sense with the stuff the administration said or what you are suggesting. The claim that trump was spied on, no information came out of that, and then they turned to literally making stuff up is not consistent with anything that has been said here. Not even trump has made that claim.
How can they know it is false or true until they act? They can have a credible source claim something and they decide it is in the best interests of the nation to investigate it. It doesn't mean their investigation is automatically going to find dirt/guilt....which it didn't.

How does this not make sense? Just because someone CLAIMED Trump and his team were doing something and so they were spied (e.i the info was acted on) on doesn't mean the accusations are true.

So yes. The initial spying was conducted via an accusation of collusion with Russia. This doesn't, however, mean the accusations or investigation's causes are truth/authentic. This is backed by the fact that, through months, they haven't found a single thing to prove their accusations. Not even when they tried to set Trump's son up.

This isn't a denial of information leaks coming out from that investigation beyond that [collusion] though. I'm just saying the accusation of collusion has found nothing.

What have they made up? I don't know what you're talking about. :P Although I know there are a lot of accusations out there by various people about what Obama did and I don't stand behind most of them (at least the ones I know of), but it is clear that Trump, especially after winning the election, had his transition team spied on, unmasked and leaked out to the public even outside of attempts to gather potential information on a collusion.

Illegal immigration did not increase with obama.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/27/5-facts-about-illegal-immigration-in-the-u-s/
https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/president-obamas-mixed-legacy-immigration
Illegal immigration has been declining for a decade or so by now for a number of reasons.... Which is convenient for trump as if the trends that have been there for a decade maintain themselves he can claim success on this front literally without doing anything. Or claim whatever policy he enacted is successful regardless of whether it actually did anything. Which incidentally, though on a different topic, he will also do on jobs returning from overseas. Automation has, in some industries, eradicated the jobs that made said industries leave to places with cheaper labor. So now that those jobs are gone, there is less reason for those industries to stay in, say, china or mexico. Of course, that doesn't apply to all industries, say carrier who is leaving in spite of taking the money trump gave them to stay, but it will over time apply to more and more industries. It is very convenient to make promises where no matter what you do what you offer will likely happen.
Yes, it has been declining very, very slowly. Mentioning this doesn't mean the rapid decline (hitting a near twenty year low) started under a Trump admin isn't through his efforts or rhetoric. The trends you are mentioning were slow and often exceptionally small. Under Trump, it dropped rapidly and very far. There is no way in almost 7 months the trend would suddenly skyrocket to a 61% decline coincidentally under a tougher immigration enforcing president....

John Kelly, Denise Gilman and many others believed the decline was initially like the trends you are mentioning and that it would go back up after the winter months, but it hasn't. It's still falling and illegals are becoming less willing to try crossing the border. Because of Trump. This isn't some progress off previous trends. This was achieved entirely through Trump's rhetoric (mostly) and efforts.

(check bbc, cnn, politifact, etc if you do not wish to believe me. Professionals/experts and patrol agents who have been working the border for twenty years are not accounting this up to previous trends but through Trump.)

Back it up? Trump literally got behind the plan made by paul ryan. He got his party together and literally threatened them to get them to pass it. What else do you want? And when the revised AHCA passed, he immediately complemented the house republicans over it and did everything he could to get senate republicans to pass it. What else could you want on that front? We had months over this chickanery and trump going out of his way to support it.
Yes, please. Give me tweets, articles, videos etc where he said he stands behind Ryan's HC etc. I can't just take your word he did these things. I'd like to know for a fact, please. I also need to know the context, wording etc etc because I have a feeling the furthest he went was approving of repealing Obamacare at any means necessary and pushing skinny replacements.

Don't be ridiculous, if trump had a healthcare plan he would have said what it is already. Universal healthcare or medicaid for all are very well liked policies by voters on both ends of the spectrum. Sure, republicans would hate it but sizeable amount of their voters support such things. If trump had such a plan there wouldn't be much risk to him making it public. It would be what his voters wanted, people who voted against him would get behind that. Trump is simply being blantantly dishonest here, otherwise he would have never made any effort at all to pass bills which are effectively the most extreme opposite of what he offered during his campaign.
I just linked you to a thread discussing his plan. It was on his campaign website but considering he got elected, it got moved. I have no idea how to find it now but yes, I assure you he had a plan. One that he tried to push but the scummy Republicans and Democrats couldn't agree on any of it or anything else so it got rejected.

I can't argue with that bit about Republicans. I agree. I also think he needs to do something about them. They are snakes willing to eat him alive and force him to go back on his words. Never sleep with snakes. :no

What is the idea that obama didn't bomb them enough based on? Obama threw billions and billions of dollars worth of bombs at isis... So what exactly wasn't enough? What else could have been done? These are not people that are going to be intimidated by more bombs. When has that strategy ever worked? There is a reason trump has essentially continued obama's plan to deal with isis (with a few, less than positive, differences though). The only mayor shift trump has done in this regard does not even pertain to isis but rather syria (with stopping the arming of rebels).
It isn't just "not bombing them enough". He armed the very people who became ISIS and spread across the land like a plague. So no, there isn't a claim (at least by me) that he didn't do anything.

And I'm not saying "just bomb them" or that just bombing them is going to magically end them. My point is that Trump is more willing to not only voice his efforts against ISIS but move to heal relationships with countries that could help us fight them (Russia) or to get help from other countries (like Jordan). He's also working closely with Mattis etc on better ways of dealing with them as previous admin attempts have not gotten us very far. Even if it means expanding upon or alerting Obama's plans to be more effective it's still better action, isn't it?

Believe it or not, not arming those "rebels" is an incredible shift in power for ISIS.

But.... what successes are you talking about? You haven't really mentioned anything that couldn't reasonably be attributed to factors other than trump. Be it on the economy (where presidents in general have way less power than people think), foreign policy (where he has basically continued what obama has done with the bonus of increased civilian casualties), domestic policy (he hasn't passed any of the major points of his agenda...). Trump's first big win will most likely be tax reform which should still be a few months away at least (of course, whether that is a good or bad thing is debatable).
I have named dozens of them, but you keep throwing them under the success of Obama or coincidences or suddenly more powerful trends that happen to spring up directly after Trump got elected. This is just like how the left was willing to crucify Trump if the DOW etc dropped but are extremely reluctant to acknowledge that he has had nothing but a positive growth on it.

Here's a good list of his accomplishments so far (though the thread is old so it may not be updated with the last month or so accomplishments etc). I hope you read it because the few other times I linked it it was ignored.

https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald...s_saying_trump_hasnt/?st=j5yf2qrn&sh=34528e5d
***(all of that just within a few months of his term. Though to be fair some of it was just expanded on or updated to work better, so for those entire credit cannot go to his admin)

The problem here though is that you and many others (often on the left) refuse to acknowledge anything he has succeeded in doing.

***I just wanted to take a moment and thank you for not being rude to me because I support Trump or insulting my intelligence. I appreciate it a lot. (:
 

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I wouldn't trust those polls if I were you, at least don't rely so heavily on them. The same polls for months said nobody liked Trump and that Trump would lose the election by a huge margin.
Yeah, because polls were wrong about him winning in the first place? Those aren't the same as approval ratings of a sitting President who embarrasses himself and the office on a regular basis, and has less and less allies in Congress by the day. I can understand bias in the media as it pertains to editorializing the news, but not actual polling. Even if the numbers are wrong, this isn't a zero-sum game like election polling where being wrong by only a few percentage points can flip the results. He's incredibly unpopular among the majority of people.

Most Republicans are against him though because he stands for something they hate.
No, most of the Republicans that are against him are so because the people they represent aren't really interested in the policy prescriptions being put forth by Trump. Sinking 6% of the economy just so he can "win" on healthcare isn't exactly favorable to anyone with a brain, much less someone interested in winning an election in a year's time.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
Maybe it takes a special case like Trump for there to be a bipartisan effort to reduce the Executive Branch's encroaching power swell. It's been going on since Johnson's terms really, and more than enough people on the right complained about it during the Clinton and Obama years.
 

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Annnd jared kuschner got a subpoena over offering investor visas to people who invested in his property some months back in china... I am surprised it took this long if this could be illegal considering how obvious and public it was at the time.
 

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Yeah, because polls were wrong about him winning in the first place? Those aren't the same as approval ratings of a sitting President who embarrasses himself and the office on a regular basis, and has less and less allies in Congress by the day. I can understand bias in the media as it pertains to editorializing the news, but not actual polling. Even if the numbers are wrong, this isn't a zero-sum game like election polling where being wrong by only a few percentage points can flip the results. He's incredibly unpopular among the majority of people..
They aren't the same. I'm just saying you shouldn't rely so heavily on polls and surveys when they have been consistently wrong about Trump or heavily skewed or not an actual authentic representation of what people actually think. For example, Pew Research and Rasmussen have a pretty big difference in the results [approval/disapproval]. It's all about who you poll/survey, how you oversample/undersample etc. And Pew and Gallup notoriously mega oversample Democrats and that's how you cook a poll/survey.

After all there are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.

No, most of the Republicans that are against him are so because the people they represent aren't really interested in the policy prescriptions being put forth by Trump. Sinking 6% of the economy just so he can "win" on healthcare isn't exactly favorable to anyone with a brain, much less someone interested in winning an election in a year's time.
Millions of people wouldn't have voted Trump in if they weren't interested in his policies or agendas and the Republicans need to understand that. They didn't vote for the GOP, they voted for Trump. And they're only really against him right now for the health care, though I'm sure they're gonna want to wrestle more power as the days go on and fight him on everything he promised the people who voted him in he would give. The majority of these Republicans don't really want to replace Obamacare. They just want to remove it. Very few of them exist right now that really wants a good HC plan and have thought it through more than a day. And then you have people like McCain and Paul Ryan....

Maybe it takes a special case like Trump for there to be a bipartisan effort to reduce the Executive Branch's encroaching power swell. It's been going on since Johnson's terms really, and more than enough people on the right complained about it during the Clinton and Obama years.
If Clinton and Obama's abuses of power didn't convince people it needs to change, Trump's not going to. Well...I should rephrase that. It shouldn't [convince them] considering they didn't care (except the right) before, but it most likely will now because it's Trump.
 

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Millions of people wouldn't have voted Trump in if they weren't interested in his policies or agendas and the Republicans need to understand that. They didn't vote for the GOP, they voted for Trump. And they're only really against him right now for the health care, though I'm sure they're gonna want to wrestle more power as the days go on and fight him on everything he promised the people who voted him in he would give. The majority of these Republicans don't really want to replace Obamacare. They just want to remove it. Very few of them exist right now that really wants a good HC plan and have thought it through more than a day. And then you have people like McCain and Paul Ryan....
And what exactly was the substance of his policies in the first place? It's incredibly difficult to nail down what any of them are, because he didn't actually run on policy at all. Sure, you have hardcore people who will vote GOP no matter what, and people actually ignorant enough to think that a massive border wall is panacea for present-day USA, but I don't see how the majority of moderates can't have buyer's remorse at this point.

What exactly is the problem with McCain and Ryan from your point of view though? Because they don't cave to Trump?

If Clinton and Obama's abuses of power didn't convince people it needs to change, Trump's not going to. Well...I should rephrase that. It shouldn't [convince them] considering they didn't care (except the right) before, but it most likely will now because it's Trump.
The point is this isn't a partisan issue. Congress is merely trying to gain back ground from the executive branch given the circumstances. The same exact thing happened during the Ford and Carter presidencies, prosperity during the Reagan years let it flow back in the opposite directions and not much has changed since. The fact that the GOP controls both branches of the government and it's happening anyway is as good of an indictment on the Trump administration thus far as any.
 

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I personally feel like Trump, being a newcomer to the Presidential Plate and not having a background in politics, he had to get noticed somehow. His outrageous policies and statements more than sufficed.
 

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President Trump's weekly address:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/featured-videos/video/2017/08/04/8417-weekly-address

Also:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...eb7d3a2d304_story.html?utm_term=.36a5f1e5d94f


@ xi0
And what exactly was the substance of his policies in the first place? It's incredibly difficult to nail down what any of them are, because he didn't actually run on policy at all. Sure, you have hardcore people who will vote GOP no matter what, and people actually ignorant enough to think that a massive border wall is panacea for present-day USA, but I don't see how the majority of moderates can't have buyer's remorse at this point.

What exactly is the problem with McCain and Ryan from your point of view though? Because they don't cave to Trump?
What do you mean? His website had multiple tabs describing all of his policies and agendas, though a few things remained vague like how he was gonna try and get Mexico to build the wall. Or am I misunderstanding your question here?

And most of the country couldn't understand how anyone would vote for Trump in the first place and yet they turned out in droves to support him on election day. The only way most people [who voted Trump] would feel regret is because the things they promised aren't going through due to interference not only from the left by the GOP. They voted him to do these things, after all, just I don't think most of us realized how much of a fight he'd get from his own party....

From my point of view? Well...I think they're both two timing, greedy scumbags that play both sides of politics to score more money, power and voters. That they possess little to none loyalty to allies or the people who ignorantly give them power (though PR's voters are constantly booing him now).

For example how flip-floppy they both have been on health care, specifically concerning Obamacare. Do we all remember how hard McCain fought Obamacare? That Paul Ryan voted no on Obamacare 6 times? Yet now they're fighting shamefully hard at keeping it and refusing to work together with each and the Dems to progress forward on changes we clearly need, even if it means a temporary skinny repeal and replace.

So Paul Ryan is a dirty snake. He engages in fake dossiers and accusations against Trump while simultaneously sucking up to him in public. He doesn't have a side because his backing is buyable. He'll flip for whoever has more $$, like George Soros, and has done so multiple times. It isn't about whether or not he "caves" to Trump—though just like with any president he doesn't deserve parties trying to back stab him and undermine him simply because they're butt hurt (though he did have an obligation to unite the party, not undermine it). We had enough of that with people against literally anything Obama did—it is about integrity of character (his failed coup to trick the populace into voting for someone else for example is really disgusting and scummy). He has an obligation now to help fulfill the wants of the people who elected Trump and gave him the power he has yet he is loyal only to himself and this country, left or right, does not deserve to have him ruin their livelihood.

He tried to replace Obamacare penalties with even bigger penalties, got into bed with big Pharma, fakes photo ops to look better, can't pick sides especially if they aren't offering something in return, went from endorsing Trump to NeverTrump to endorsing him to straight up back stabbing and undermining him again. He's a RINO and I dislike people like him. I think this image pretty much sums up his character:



I consider Paul worse in character than McCain, though I have never liked McCain since his time running against Obama. My dislike for McCain is mostly on his policies or lack thereof, though I don't think he's loyal to anyone either. He purposely pushed that fake as Hollywood boobs dossier against Trump to the FBI while pushing for sanctions and telling the world that Russia was responsible for the leaks Seth Rich leaked while conveniently forgetting that he asked for money from Russia for his 2008 election run. He also has corruption ties just like HC to the Saudis and the Rothschilds.

He also told the GOP to "back the people" who voted Trump in yet now fights everything we want as his voters and fights against us/Trump with the Democrats and Republicans. Hell, they hated each other (McCain and Ryan) as he once accused Ryan for working for Vladmir Putin, which crazily enough he also accused Rand Paul of all people of being a puppet to.

Both sides will soon enough go back to hating them both as soon as they remember they're Republican or generally against Democratic agenda.

The point is this isn't a partisan issue. Congress is merely trying to gain back ground from the executive branch given the circumstances. The same exact thing happened during the Ford and Carter presidencies, prosperity during the Reagan years let it flow back in the opposite directions and not much has changed since. The fact that the GOP controls both branches of the government and it's happening anyway is as good of an indictment on the Trump administration thus far as any.
Hmm. I don't have anything to say to this. It's unnecessary at this point, I think. However, I would like to know more on what you think about this specific point of the discussion. If you don't mind of course?
 
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kkck

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For anyone who wants a good laugh at the DNC:
 

Styx

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For anyone who wants a good laugh at the DNC:
lol some of the comments.

Yes Men....vaguely familiar. As in the people who did the Ice-Age petition thing a while back? :hmm

It's a shame it is a prank and how the people listening responded (just staring quietly). Have you see the rest of the troll they did there? Just watched more videos after this one where he's sitting in front of a crowd discussing what they did and didn't do, and how they needed to change etc.

I wonder...how will the DNC respond? If they come out and deny any of this as their stance, they are going to look even more corrupt and incompetent. However, I can't imagine they will come out and support it because that means they are ADMITTING to doing all of these things.
 

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I don't think that multi-billion dollar corporations interests are directly related to the general attitude of mainstream media on the whole though. At least, populist liberal thinking can't be married with the agenda of the independently wealthy IMO, in fact it's more often the opposite.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

No, it just means that enough of his SUPPOSED policy viewpoints still align with theirs. Without giving any regard to his clear unfitness for the position or ineptitude. That doesn't mean they're loyal to him in any way though, there's enough evidence to the contrary in Congress. And enough polls suggest his support is dwindling by the day, so...
It also means Trump supporters are pretty brainwashed when they denounce actual facts and stats as fake and believe Trump blindly. They seem to be loyal enough to defend him from any criticism and shit. there's a difference between being brainwashed and having similar viewpoints, and most definitely are part of the former.
What exactly is the problem with McCain and Ryan from your point of view though? Because they don't cave to Trump?
That's most likely it, though Ryan is still spineless as he doesn't do more to stop Trump.

And on the subject of McCain, I've always found it ironic and sad that people got offended over Kaepernick kneeling, on the army's behalf, but they were okay with Trump calling PoW losers and attacking a deceased soldier.
 

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It will be interesting to see the left quarter Paul Ryan and John McCain again when they're no longer pushing views they support. What happened to hating him for wanting to completely dismantle Social Security? Or when the left demonized him by saying he wished to kill all the elderly and poor? Or when they said he advocated rape as a validate method of conception? It's astounding how flip-floppy some people are in this subject but that's how pathetic politics are nowadays.

Though please, if you are not going to dislike Paul Ryan because he is a dirty snake that cares only about himself, then you should at least hate him because he likes modern Nickelback. I mean, come on? Who likes modern day Nickelback? A Hydra agent, that's who. :notrust


Also, anyone see the news about Lynch and more using aliases in their emails (you know, the ones Federal Bureau of Investigation denied existed in a FOIA request)? Funnily enough after she met with Bill Clinton on that tarmac meeting she lied about multiple times, Lynch instructed (not asked or suggested but instructed) Comey to refer to the investigation from then on as a "political matter" rather than a criminal investigation, which unsurprisingly parroted the Clinton campaign line on the investigation.

The group behind releasing this information released 400 pages, so there's a lot to go through. If you guys want to read them, check it out here: http://media.aclj.org/pdf/Clinton-Lynch-Documents-1.pdf
 

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Man, fuck Donald Trump. Couldn't think of anywhere else to vent, so here you guys go.

So I've been away from Mangahelpers for about a year now thanks to not really reading manga like usual, and working longer hours on my job. I've only had time for a bit of gaming and some tv... which thanks to the Angry Cheeto we have as a president, has resulted in most of that tv time being spent watching the news. I've never been into politics, until last year. I've never voted (not even for Obama for either term, and I'm black lol), but I voted for Hillary last year. Because while politicians have been trying to find ways to get people into voting for their own reasons, nothing could really make me care until I saw an opportunity to directly stand in the way of a racist's attempt at grabbing power.

I felt like an Uchiha trying to keep Tobirama Senju out of the Hokage seat. I felt good. Important, even...

...until Trump won. Then I felt defeated. I felt LITERALLY sick. And I've spent a long, long time trying to learn how to not view Trump supporters with disdain and the only thing I could come up with as a means to accomplish such a feat is to listen to their views a bit.

I should say before hand, I live in North Carolina... a southern state.

One of my co workers who voted for Trump believes that every Muslim is a terrorist. Says he read the Quran and the whole "infidels being stoned" deal means that that's what all Muslims want, and Trump's going to protect us from... fuck, I guess stoning. I stated that not all Muslims are terrorists, to which he replied "yes they are". It took 4 tries before he finally said "Oh, well I should say not all of them practice terrorism." Which was the most reasonable response I could get out of him. We then had a long conversation (by conversation, I listened as he failed to try to convince me that God exists) about religion.

One of my co workers grew up in West Virginia where there's a lot of coal mining, and he feels Trump will help bring jobs back to states with tons of job loss. I brought up the Muslim ban to him, even bringing up the Japanese internment camps after Pearl Harbor (he's half Japanese) as an example of holding an entire group of people responsible for the crimes of just a few, with "better safe than sorry" as reasoning. He brushed off the internment camps as necessary stating "It kept us safe didn't it?" I didn't know how to respond. I let it slide though because he's super religious (I'm an agnostic atheist myself) and he never watches the news. Just aligns his political beliefs with his family because... well, they're family.

Another one of my co workers voted for Trump because he believes that since he's not a politician, he won't have his hands tied by the same rules that other politicians are *shrugs*. And that him not being a politician makes him "one of us". A normal guy with normal problems. Now, this is the only Trump supporter I actually laughed at out loud, and I'm sure you all know why. Donald Trump is a multi-millionaire who reached his status from Old Money, that is to say his father set him up to succeed from the beginning.

And then there's the one guy who just wanted to vote for Trump because he believed that Hillary was just "more of the same" (referring to Obama) and that she'd try to take his guns and... ugh.

So that was a wash. Talking to local Trump supporters just made me more nauseous. So I decided maybe the smarter Trump supporters could shed some light on their support for Donald Trump and I took to Youtube (bad idea. BAD, BAD IDEA).

Ben Shapiro, Milo Yiannopolous, Stephen Crowder, Gavin whatshisface... all of them just seemed to want to vote for Trump because the thought of angering social justice warriors was appealing to them. Could only stomach a few of their videos before realizing there was nothing of worth here unless you're an asshole. I'm not an asshole. I don't think.

So I tried one more avenue. Maybe the problem was with me? Maybe I WAS a cuck? Maybe I was too soft and didn't understand the reality of the situation? Maybe what I saw as racism and sexism and xenophobia and religious discrimination were all true, but it didn't matter because he'd fix the country? So I made a list of all the reasons why I wouldn't vote for Trump, and I'm here to ask Trump voters on MH how these issues affect them, and if they don't, why they're okay with letting them hurt other people.

1: Fuck Stop and Frisk: Trump said his answer for cleaning up crime in the black community is re in stating Stop and Frisk. This was deemed unconstitutional, and yet he wants to bring it back. By voting for Donald Trump, you are directly aiding him in bringing this back. What say you, Trump supporters? Do you just not give a shit because you're (probably) not black? Or do the ends justify the means? Yes, I know that Stop and Frisk did help with lowering crime when it was still active, but you're not supposed to stoop to unconstitutional behavior just because it gets you to your desired goal faster.

2: Fuck religious discrimination: Not every Muslim is a terrorist. Don't radicalize the good Muslims by treating them like the bad Muslims. Trump didn't spring the ban on us AFTER becoming president, he waxed poetic beforehand, meaning you guys had plenty of time to decide whether or not you were okay with it. And you voted for him so... you're okay with it. Why?

3: Fuck homophobia/transphobia: Trump praised the woman who chose not to give a marriage license to a gay couple looking to have their license done at her workplace. She stated that it was against her religion and that she couldn't be a part of aiding them in committing a sin. She wasn't committing the sin though, they were. She directly discriminated against this couple and was praised for it. Oh, and now with trans people being banned from service? Motherfucker is just anti-progressive all around.

4: Fuck racism: So the one black guy at Trump's rally that was protesting? The one that got punched in the back of the head on his way out? Trump wouldn't denounce the racist who claimed "We may have to kill him next time. I dunno what he was, he coulda been a terrorist." This man was arrested and while Donald Trump claimed he'd pay his court expenses and bail him out, I dunno if he did or not. I do remember him saying "Maybe he deserved to get punched, you don't know. Who knows?"

So yeah. Voting for Trump doesn't make you a racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic... bad person. It just means you're okay with racism, sexism, homophobia, and transphobia as long as you can benefit from it somehow. Because focusing on the policies you AGREE with don't erase the policies you DON'T agree with. It's a package deal. And voting for the man who's going to put both the policies you agree with, and the policies you don't agree with into power? That's promoting those bad policies.

So, something a bit more on topic: what does everyone rely on for their "unbiased" political news coverage? It seems like there is no end-all for coverage where one side can't say "Oh no, you can't trust them because of A, B, or C." It's not like debating in the Naruto arena threads where you can just post a link to what was actually shown or stated in the manga. On the contrary it's like having 7 or 8 different versions of the manga out there, all written by someone with an agenda.
 

xi0

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So, something a bit more on topic: what does everyone rely on for their "unbiased" political news coverage?
All sources. Taking your news from any single source is complete folly. Written media also tends to be far more comprehensive than anything you see on TV.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
And if you're someone who has no problem with Trump saying that the mainstream media is an "enemy of the people" and are perfectly fine with Trump News existing, then you're rather naive IMO. Trump News is no different than RT or any other state-run news "source".
 

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So, something a bit more on topic: what does everyone rely on for their "unbiased" political news coverage? It seems like there is no end-all for coverage where one side can't say "Oh no, you can't trust them because of A, B, or C." It's not like debating in the Naruto arena threads where you can just post a link to what was actually shown or stated in the manga. On the contrary it's like having 7 or 8 different versions of the manga out there, all written by someone with an agenda.
There is no such thing as unbiased... The best you could aim for realistically is read from as many sources as you can to get a perspective on an issue or once you get a piece of news go back to watch the actual thing rather than the article. You actually back normally just post a link naruto arena style since for the most part everything can be found on youtube. Now, the media situation is far less than ideal however the problem is in no form or context similar to what trump's idiocy or his supporters suggest. The whole fake news thing started when the media, correctly at that, pointed out that massive amounts of pro trump propaganda and fake news were coming from foreign sources (mainly from the Kremlin's well known troll army). Then trump to his convenience rebutted that literally everything that didn't support him was fake news and his supporters ate that shit up. And with that, trump invented a fake news problem that didn't exist. Which is not to say there isn't a media problem, it's just that it's in no form what the cheeto in chief suggests... The actual problems with the media would go along the lines of the following (as far as I can tell)

1.- 90% of major news outlets of all ideological spectrums are owned by few corporations. Just go down the Vox media website and you can see comcast as one of their investors...

2.- It is reasonable to suggest there is a liberal media bubble. Of course, in the context described in the article the issue is that media people are college educated folk who across the board, not just in media, are not likely to be trump supporters, meanwhile conservatives tend to be less educated. Now, my issue here is that the the non liberal media seems to be basically fox news or worst... And those are the idiots who distrust academia, reject climate science, assert all muslims are terrorists and all those beautiful things which the right wing is criticized for by liberals. I remember some time ago a new york times story. The tried to "address" this liberal media issue by hiring a conservative to write for them. But the guy was a well known climate change denier. So the chance of sanity from that guy did not exist to begin with. Maybe the issue here is not a "liberal media" problem but rather an education problem (though of course the conservative wing is more skeptic of academia so go figure that out....) which results in a significant part of the population thinking things like climate change denial are reasonable rather than astonishingly stupid and shortsighted.

3.- The liberal media bit doesn't really pertain to "all" liberals. The liberal media bubble seems to particularly represent generic establishment democrats which would represent IIRC about 20% of the population. Meanwhile the remaining liberals aren't necessarily as represented. So perhaps the liberal media bubble is not so liberal as it is a democrat media bubble.

Of course, this distinction can be lost on the generic right wing... Since for the generic right wing obama is already a socialist and bernie seems like a full blown communist. Even though obama in a number of european countries would be the furthest to the right they would consider sane and bernie would barely make it to centrist, let alone leftwing. Imagine what the US right wing that is further to the right of the generic right wing would think of sanders...

Now, going back to the start of point 3 there is the issue that you have a very narrow view of things. So you had a bunch of generic democrats telling you things like trump literally has no chance of winning the election or that bernie never had a chance against hillary. Both of which were clearly wrong as trump won the election and bernie did far better than the media would have believed. Which leads into another problem: Fake polls. Those are not a thing unless you are talking about internet polls. The polls actually were accurate during the election. The issue wasn't the polls, the issue was the media jackasses reporting on them. Looking at the aggregate of polls reveals that trump was not nearly as weak as the media made him out to be nor hillary was as strong as she was and the actual election result was well within the margin of error of polls.

4.- Now, as far as the liberal media reporting on trump, I would argue they are doing a good job in general. As in, they are consistently on his ass exposing his weaknesses as president and flaws in what he says or does. Of course, there is the democrat bubble thing to consider but even within that the reporting in itself is not outright terrible. Now, it is completely fair to say that stories that there are stories that should have gotten more or different coverage. But that is contextually different from the stuff trump claims. Even with the "fake news" media like new york times or washington post. Which is not to say they are perfect however having trump as president means they get to do their job. The issue with these media outlets is not the reporting they did on trump, rather it's the reporting they did on obama. They did not question obama enough, they just took his word at face value. Which was relevant when they didn't grill obama on syria related stuff or some stuff obama said regarding obamacare for instance many years back. So in essence, the media is doing it's job with trump but failed to do it with obama. Now, I do by no means mean to say or otherwise imply obama was as bad as trump and the media covered for him or anything of the sort (the media did cover for him but he is still not as bad as trump). Obama is not the one that is claiming climate change is a china hoax nor the one that has white supremacists in his office....
 
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