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Politics American Politics

Discussion in 'General World Topics' started by SharkBait, Jun 19, 2015.

  1. Newkerzy

    Newkerzy Registered User

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    See, about that.... I kinda agree that if you guys are going to let immigrants come in, they should at least have a basic knowledge of English and a certain set of skills, depending on what kind of job they're looking for. Without those, they would be no better off than they were back home.

    For those who are already in the states, rather than expelling them, mandating immigrants to fulfill these within a certain timeframe makes much more sense.

    Of course, refugees are a whole different matter. And we certainly don't need to bring up the ridiculous wall proposal.
     
  2. Styx

    Styx Registered User

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    I also love the Trump chicken, though I think the left meant to insult us with it. :hurr

    Have you guys seen what's happening with the white nationalists' protest? Some people have died, almost immediately after the counter-protesters arrived. Supposedly the mayor is sending in forces to deal with the violence (can't find more info on it just yet).

    Yes, you were one of the people I was referencing. I didn't want to hit a nerve by only mentioning one person so I left it open for people to just go back and look through the posts to see the examples of what I meant.

    Yes, I saw your "reasons" for hating him and I don't recall saying you shouldn't or couldn't express yourself or your dislike of Trump. My point was to highlight how easily you and many others did the same things you condemn Trump/supporters for. And that's humorous, because you nor others seem to care that you did, which means you only care if Trump/someone you dislike did it. An action you distaste so thoroughly yet you have no qualms with exercising.

    And as I said, so what? You met Trump supporters that said something that ruffled your jimmies and you think you can lump them altogether and insult all of them because of this instance that no one but you can authentic? And yet you hate Trump for insulting, generalizing, etc Muslims, Immigrants etc etc? You are a shallow hypocrite if you can accept unacceptable behavior so long as it is towards people you condemn it happening or from people you side with.

    And don't twist my words for the sake of your hypocritical argument. I didn't say it is amusing people insult Trump for "being a shitty person". Please learn to read correctly. I said it is amusing how you people can easily do the things you hate other people for, including Trump. Example, yet again, is your initial post generalizing all of us into a hateful, racist etc group and expressing hatred not only towards Trump but us...and yet Trump/supporters are the devil incarnate for doing the same things?

    If you are going to have values, at least stand by them 100%.

    Dishonesty here, or did you really not understand a thing I said? I didn't compare you to Trump for being racist, homophobic etc. I said you are no better than the people you condemn because you do the same things you hate them for, e.i generalizing us all (thinking we all hate Muslims, gays etc), insulting us etc. Though since it was missed, you are not the only person I was referencing hypocritical behavior from.

    I'll restate it. This is the bit I am referring to (when I referenced you), where you use your (few) encounters with a few Trump supporters to vent about your hatred and disgust of Trump supporters. The humorous part, since you do not seem to understand, is how easily you do the same thing you condemn us and Trump for. Or, even worse, you think it is okay to do completely unrelated to your hatred of Trump so long as it is against people you hate (us, Trump supporters, based off the interactions of a few).

    It's clear the standards you possess and exercise though from your posts, but yes, you're so right,Trump's da evil debil and so are all the hateful Trumpers. :pls
     
  3. ninjabot

    ninjabot Registered User

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    Except I haven't done what I hate Trump for. I called Trump (a bad person) bad names. Trump calls anyone who has a criticism of him bad names, bad person or not. I didn't refer to his entire race in negative connotations. He said all blacks are lazy. I didn't ban him from the country, ridicule his religion, or threaten to torture the families of terrorists.

    You're trying to place name-calling on the same tier as racism and bigotry. You are reaching. Terribly.

    See, you're doing it again. I never said "ALL" Trump supporters. And I took the steps to alleviate any thoughts that I was generalizing the entire group by attempting to seek answers from multiple sources. From people I know, from the news, and from the internet. It's not my fault that all of my attempts to find a reasonable Trump supporter has fallen flat. That shit's on you guys.

    Go right ahead. You can quote any point in my responses where I've said that all Trump supporters are the way the one's I've met are. I'll wait. The closest thing you'll find is me saying "Trump supporters" instead of "some Trump supporters". And I won't apologize for that, because you don't make that same distinction when referring to liberals and I'll be damned if I let you keep trying to hold me to a standard you're incapable of meeting yourself.

    Especially when you consider at the very god damn beginning of my very first god damn full paragraph in this thread I state that voting for Trump doesn't make you ANY OF THE THINGS I HATE TRUMP FOR.

    This better be the last time I hear about some "generalizing" bullshit. I literally said not all of you are like that in my first full paragraph. You can't have missed it. You DIDN'T miss it. You just snipped it out of your argument to preserve your own argument.

    Also, stop pulling Anakin's "From my point of view it is the Jedi who are evil!" schtick. It's not my "opinion" that the Trump supporters that I've spoken to are either immoral or ignorant. One of my co-workers claimed every single Muslim was a terrorist. That's ignorance. That's not an insult either. Ignorance is lacking knowledge. He lacked the knowledge to make the claim he was making and thus, I'm justified in calling him ignorant.

    Lastly on this particular quote, "this instance that no one but you can authentic"? I couldn't care less if you believe me. That's not passive aggression either. It's not aggression at all. It's just there's no way I can prove it, and if you're not going to take my word for it, then I'm wasting my time.

    Sure you did. You just tried to change it in a way that makes ME the bad guy. You keep saying that I'm doing the same things as Trump and his supporters by "generalizing", all of them which isn't what I'm doing (and isn't the reason I hate Trump or the shitty part of his supporters). I'm insulting Trump and the supporters that act like the one's I've met because of his policies and who he is as a person. Only them. You're assigning an argument to me that I'm not making because this concocted version of me is easier to vilify than the real me in these actual posts. You need to make me the enemy because it let's you avoid confronting my questions (all of which you've still avoided answering, I might add. That isn't a mistake either. You're doing it on purpose.) And you find it amusing (you don't, you're just being condescending) that my criticisms are ill natured while I'm belittling Trump and the "deplorable" part of his voter base.

    I'll clarify again: I'm not condemning the entirety of Trump's voter base, or Trump himself, for how he talks about people. I'm condemning Trump for actually being a racist, sexist, homophobic, islamophobic, amoral cretin. For his actions. Likewise, his deplorable portion of followers who don't hold him accountable for the shit he's doing, and then take up arms to protect him when he's ridiculed for being a shitty human being. That's why your argument falls flat. Because I'm not a hypocrite unless I'm doing the same things that I hate Trump and the indoctrinated portion of his followers for.

    I literally can't explain it any better than that. And my value's are just fine. Granted, they don't meet your standards but, not everyone can be the paradigm of leadership and moral responsibility that Donald Trump is.

    Right, I understood. I'm just re-writing your own argument because you're re-writing mine. And what do you know! You quote (and bolded!) the exact statement I was referring to earlier about failing to put the word "some", before Trump supporters. Yet chose not to point out the instances where I did. Tricky business, that. Some might call it cherry-picking. It's a fair mistake though so I won't attack you for it, but let's step into the bizarro world and assume that I WAS generalizing the entirety of Trump's support base. Let's say I DID say that all of you were amoral racist homophobic transphobic Islamaphobic assholes.

    Would saying those things really be tantamount to actually banning people from entering the country due to their religion? Or preventing transexuals from serving in the military? Wanting to torture innocent civilians? Wanting to kill teenagers for a crime they didn't commit?

    Of course not. So even if I was a shitty human being for generalizing all of Trump's supporters, I still come out as a better person than all of the people I'm generalizing because I've committed no atrocities equal to anything Trump or his supporters has done short of those generalizations. Hell I wish generalizing people was the worse thing Donald Trump has done in the 6 months he's been our president. I WISH.

    And let's be realistic here: let's say you're "One of the good ones" (not quoted for sarcasm or any hidden meaning, just a faster way of saying a Trump supporter that doesn't actually agree with most of what he's doing). That you voted for Trump because of the parts of his policy you agreed with that were morally sound, and not because of the ones you disagreed with, that are inherently accepted as amoral by anyone that feels empathy for anyone that's not their same skin color. You still gave him the power to push forth the policies that you didn't agree with, which means you, at some point, stopped and decided that you are okay with them. If you weren't okay with a Muslim ban when he mentioned it before the election, and still voted him in, then you pushed aside your moral reasoning in order to gain whatever else you thought you'd get from a Trump presidency (let's just say more jobs for example), which means you settled on hurting people to acquire what's best for you. Even if you're the nicest person in America, you just shat on millions of people with your vote, and that's not hyperbole.

    And that's far more disgusting than me generalizing anyone.

    You're applying my hatred for Trump and his deplorable voter base to all of Trump supporters. You're doing that, not me. What's weird is that I never even said I hated the ones in my workplace. All of them are nice to me, and the one that used to live in West Virginia is a good friend of mine. It doesn't mean I can't use his dumb ass testimony as reasoning for my ridicule of (some) Trump supporters. I didn't even mention my cousin who voted for Trump (whom I also don't hate, yet don't have a problem calling a dumb fuck). Only reason I didn't mention him though is because I haven't confronted him about it the way I have these co-workers so I can't give any reasoning for him voting for him.

    I'll say one last time in closing: I'm not doing the thing that I condemn SOME Trump supporters, and Trump himself for. Because generalizing isn't the thing that I criticize SOME Trump supporters for.

    1: I criticize Trump for being a racist, sexist, trans... I'm not listing it all again. You knew what he was before you voted for him.
    2: I criticize SOME Trump supporters for sharing Trump's beliefs about other races and religions; and voting for him to allow him to put these heinous beliefs into action.
    3: I criticize ALL Trump supporters for, even if they don't share his beliefs, voting for him. Because they ENABLED him to use these discriminatory beliefs they claim they don't agree with. A perfect analogy would be you not shooting me yourself, yet handing Donald Trump a loaded gun moments after he tells me he's going to shoot me. You didn't commit the act, and you claim you're not okay with it, but you both knew his intentions AND made sure he could pull it off, so your hands aren't clean.

    Feel free to call this "debate" a win if you want. I won't be responding to any reply that doesn't answer the questions asked in my first post. Literally nothing you typed so far in response to me has been helpful in alleviating the pre-concieved notions I have about a good deal of the Trump support base. On the contrary it's confirming my suspicions.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2017
  4. M3J

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    They're called Nazis and KKK, dear, not "white nationalists."

    And Trump has made it worse with his tweet, probably the only tweet on this subject. Dude's done the most to divide US, and he expects anyone but his brainwashed supporters to believe his bullshit? lulz.
     
  5. xi0

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    No...? There's no need for that kind of nitpicking when Nazis and KKK members are white supremacists and therefore white nationalists.

    No point in being patronizing over a sentence either.
     
  6. M3J

    M3J MH Senpai

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    Calling them white nationalists is an attempt to detract from the fact that they are Nazis and KKK. It matters especially because despite these guys doing Nazi salutes and chanting things that actually align with Nazi views, they're not called as such. Whereas, a BLM protest will somehow get demonized. Hell, unlike at this protest against taking down a monument, I don't remember anyone being killed by a BLM protester at a BLM protest.
     
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  7. xi0

    xi0 あの術

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    No one sees "white nationalist" and compares that to a group like BLM, so I don't even see the point of your comparison.

    One can be a white nationalist and not be a neo-Nazi or a member of the KKK. Insisting everyone there be identified as such is pointless.
     
  8. ninjabot

    ninjabot Registered User

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    Maybe he could've said it in a nicer way, but it's important to be perfectly clear about what a person's motivations are despite their title, because a title can be a mask. White nationalists may not claim they're superior to non-whites, but they want to preserve the privilege that comes from being white by maintaining the majority, discouraging race mixing and preventing white neighborhoods from allowing non-whites to enter their community.

    And how do they do this? The same way Nazi's do. Fear mongering, violence, and exploiting social standing in predominately white areas. So... yeah...

    Side note!

    Chris Evans is a national treasure. Captain America indeed. Calling out Trump for pulling the "both sides" argument when he was supposed to be comforting people about the protestor trying to kill a crowd with his car. He couldn't simply place the blame where it lied. He had to make damn sure that the left were seen as "just as bad."

    Also, "many" sides as opposed to "both". UGH. Leader of the free world, ladies and gentlemen.
     
  9. xi0

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    White supremacists do. White supremacy is considered a subset of white nationalism, but not all white nationalists are white supremacists. Neo-Nazis and KKK members are white nationalists because they're white supremacists. I just don't see the term "white nationalism" as being sanitizing in any sense of the word.

    And my point was a bit pedantic, but oh well. It's not about being "nicer" either, it's about being factually correct.
     
  10. M3J

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    I've seen plenty of people compare the two, as well as compare the Charlottesville riot/protest to BLM protests. Many people think both are hate groups and violent, when BLM is the opposite of a hate group.

    And yet, majority of them have done the Nazi salute and have espoused KKK/Nazi views. There's no reason not to call them what they are. And I'm one of the few non-right who'd have actually supported them protesting to keep the monument if it wasn't just a way for them to protest for white supremacy.
     
  11. Newkerzy

    Newkerzy Registered User

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    Just asking, is Chris Evans American? If so, I think he has a better shot at being president than The Rock does. Just wear his Cap uniform at rallies and debates, get into character while making sure people can tell the difference between acting and genuine. And the coup de grace, punch his predecessor's lights out after the inaugration (or when he takes the stage) giving a nod to a very infamous cover.
     
  12. xi0

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    See some photographs of them doing it, and then they all instantly become Nazis or KKK members. Seems legit. I cringe coming across like I'm defending people like this, but this is just lazy logic on your part, sorry.

    That's the point though. You don't get to choose what a protest is for... that's the whole point of the first amendment.
     
  13. Reebi

    Reebi Registered User

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    It's funny how these racist people (I refuse to call them nationalists) think they are better than everyone because they were "there first" and represent "America". Wrong, indigenous people were there first and America represents Americans, which is one of the most multi ethic countries. :D

    And Americans wonder why a lot of countries hate them :notrust
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 14, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 14, 2017 ---
    Side note.

    People on this side of the border are protesting:
    http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/protes...violence-at-white-supremacist-rally-1.3544474
     
  14. ninjabot

    ninjabot Registered User

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    Tomi Lahren and Bill O'Reilly both do. I think it's safe to say Sean Hannity does as well, but I'm not sure. So... they may only be 3 people, but they're 3 influential people that convince entire groups of people what to believe.

    Semantically speaking, sure. My point was that while they may not think they're superior to non-whites, they're perfectly fine with using Nazi/KKK style tactics to maintain the white majority and the white race's place in the social power structure (see: running over crowds of people that disagree with them using cars). Which is a form of superiority, considering you can do more things than us, influence our lives, and take from us what you will. Not to mention that they think they're deserving of this status despite how it was acquired. If that isn't an air of superiority...

    Yup!

    If so, I think he has a better shot at being president than The Rock does. Just wear his Cap uniform at rallies and debates, get into character while making sure people can tell the difference between acting and genuine. And the coup de grace, punch his predecessor's lights out after the inaugration (or when he takes the stage) giving a nod to a very infamous cover.[/quote]

    The Rock is American too, but his dad is black and his mom is Samoan so... he's too "other" to get that many votes unless he plays the Trump game and motivates a lot of shitstains behind him. Chris Evans is Aryan. Blonde hair, blue eyes, fair skin. The "real" American. Neither would make good presidents though because neither have worked in any form of political fashion. It'd be like having more likable versions of Trump, which I actually don't condone. Just because I like them doesn't mean they're right to lead a nation.

    Though I'm sure you were just joking, lol.
     
  15. Newkerzy

    Newkerzy Registered User

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    The Rock is American too, but his dad is black and his mom is Samoan so... he's too "other" to get that many votes unless he plays the Trump game and motivates a lot of shitstains behind him. Chris Evans is Aryan. Blonde hair, blue eyes, fair skin. The "real" American. Neither would make good presidents though because neither have worked in any form of political fashion. It'd be like having more likable versions of Trump, which I actually don't condone. Just because I like them doesn't mean they're right to lead a nation.

    Though I'm sure you were just joking, lol.[/QUOTE]

    Half-serious, actually. What I wouldn't give to see Chris Evans in his Cap uniform to punch the hell out of that orange cheeto while winning the elections by a landslide...... Or even better, an All Might cosplayer doing exactly that...
     
  16. ninjabot

    ninjabot Registered User

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    Ah. Well, that's certainly an opinion, lol.



    Man. Love this show. To hear someone state your own opinions in a funnier, more comprehensive way than you yourself can state them? It feels like getting something off your chest every time you hear it.
     
  17. xi0

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    I'm not saying criticism of BLM is inherently wrong, but that's not the same as saying they're analogous to the KKK or Nazis. I don't think I would turn to any of those people for a thoughtful and/or concise opinion in regards to this either, but I digress. :cookiehand
     
  18. M3J

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    If most of them do Nazi salutes and change Nazi and KKK values, then I don't see how they're not Nazis or KKK. They may not be members of the actual groups, but that's a moot point when they believe in the same things the two hate groups do.

    I'm not choosing or anything. I'm just saying, I have no problem with them protesting to protect their monuments. It's just that it's fucked up how it went to a riot for white supremacy, and how many white people fear losing their dominance/power and are scared of going "extinct."
    Of course you wouldn't, you're not a right wing/conservative or care for Tomi, O'Reilly, or Hannity. But I'm sure a lot of Trump supporters turn to Hannity, and a lot of right wingers/conservatives turn to O'Reilly as well. Not sure where Tomi stands after outing herself as pro-choice, though.
     
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  19. ninjabot

    ninjabot Registered User

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    I know it isn't, but Tomi and Bill said that BLM is a terrorist organization. That'd make it analogous to the KKK or Nazis in their eyes, no? Unless they don't think either are terrorist organizations, though if they didn't they wouldn't use those comparisons to condemn BLM.

    Was just saying though. Sorry to argue semantics but, you said "nobody"... can't get any less nobody than someone who's on god damn tv, lol. Or was for a while until recently.

    On another note: Trump retweeted Jack Posobiec's "Why no outrage at deaths in Chicago" tweet. Had to hurry up and appease the white supremacists he halfway-pseudo-kinda denounced.
     
  20. Newkerzy

    Newkerzy Registered User

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    @ninjabot Speaking of The Rock and Chris Evans, there's something else I wanted to add. It is very much true that neither of them have any political experience and that choosing either of them is just choosing a more likable version of Drumpf. But the one thing that I think differentiates them both from the orange cheeto, is that they are more likely willing to learn and listen to those who understands the political stuff better than they do, as opposed to listening their own ego.
     
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