American Politics

[Styx]

It is considerably troubling how so many people against Trump and his supporters easily rely on insults, generalizations, extremes, fearmongering and baseless accusations in order to try and prove their "points". It is ridiculous. What ever happened to actual debate? To proving a point through actual evidence (and not fiction) and not personal bias and attacks?

One thing I find quite humorous about this [kind of logic] is that those people are against Trump and his supporters for generalizing and insulting groups of people off the actions of a minority (false, mind you, but hey let's just go with it for now). How do I find this humorous, you might be asking? Because in response to this act they hate so much, their only answer is to engage in the very same practices that make them "sick". I would call this hypocritical, but it isn't. What it is is the practice of shallow values and a hatred so deeply rooted into them they cannot help but act on it.


Regardless, I agree with kkck that there isn't really any unbiased news. No matter where you go, you will get agenda, even if they don't intend for it to be all of the time. There will always be agenda. Even Wikileaks has one and they are probably one of the most unbiased source of "news" out there. CNN and MSM have their liberal agenda and Fox News, Breibart etc have their conservative agenda. You cannot escape it. So you do have to be careful and compare, though what happens when all that you can compare with is owned by the same corporations/interest groups and spew the same garbage as the others? How do you trust it? Simply tracing it to another source doesn't mean what it is claiming is authentic.

It's troubling, but unfortunately this is the world we live in now. Information can be the greatest weapon this planet has ever seen and most understand this, like Youtube, CNN, Twitter and Facebook who happily contribute to media blackouts on things they don't agree with.

 

[xi0]

It is considerably troubling how so many people against Trump and his supporters easily rely on insults, generalizations, extremes, fearmongering and baseless accusations in order to try and prove their "points". It is ridiculous.

Wait, are you talking about people against Trump? Or Trump himself here?

The irony can't be lost on you here, even as a supporter of his?

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 10, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 10, 2017 ---

It is ridiculous. What ever happened to actual debate? To proving a point through actual evidence (and not fiction) and not personal bias and attacks?

You have disproportionately high standards for people against Trump, compared to his supporters and Trump himself, sorry.

 

[Styx]

Wait, are you talking about people against Trump? Or Trump himself here?

The irony can't be lost on you here, even as a supporter of his?

Please tell me this is not how 255 pages have gone by?

You have disproportionately high standards for people against Trump, compared to his supporters and Trump himself, sorry.

How so? Is it simply because I pointed out multiple times within this thread how many of you were spreading around misinformation about Trump (destroy ISIS in 30 days, all Muslims are evil etc most of which was ignored/never directed and substituted for hints that I am brainwashed or somehow incompetent) or are you making this statement simply for the fact that I support Trump, which many of you also have no problem with treating me and others in the way you hate Trump so much for?

I have a standard I hold everyone to. Democrats or Republicans. Forgive me for finding it difficult to engage in a political discussion where the primary opposing views' comments consist almost entirely of insulting and generalizing the other side because they're all supposedly "racist, homophobic, generalizing etc" scum rather than actual fact and discussion.

EDIT

correcting autocorrect.

 

[xi0]

Please tell me this is not how 255 pages have gone by?

I don't think it's unfair to point out what I perceive as an ironic statement...

or are you making this statement simply for the fact that I support Trump, which many of you also have no problem with treating me and others in the way you hate Trump so much for?

I didn't intend for it to be an indictment on you as a person either, so no point in getting defensive about it. If you want to identify the people here as those who support Trump and those who don't, be my guest. I'm not really interested in this kind of tribalism or offending people over it.

And I don't hate Trump, and I didn't vote for Clinton either.

 

[Styx]

I don't think it's unfair to point out what I perceive as an ironic statement...

Except that...you know what, okay. Whatever.

I just find it humorous how willingly people against Trump engage so easily in the things that make them "sick to their stomachs" because Trump does it.

I didn't intend for it to be an indictment on you as a person either, so no point in getting defensive about it.

Pointing something out, especially a double standard or hypocritical behavior, doesn't mean I'm upset (plus that was a general comment on the tone of the overall opposing views here). I couldn't find something so humorous to be sinsulting, to be honest. If I was easily frightened or offended by what others thought about me, would I really be a Trump supporter in this day and age? You have to have balls of steel to even wear a pro-Trump hat. lol

If you want to identify the people here as those who support Trump and those who don't, be my guest. I'm not really interested in this kind of tribalism or offending people over it.

Oh, but you know this is all about who supports who or who they do not support [or what they support]. It may be an inconvenient and sad truth, but it is one regardless. Just look through the thread and you will see it. Plus, it would be rather difficult to have a proper discussion on politics if we didn't have sides we could easily label for convenience.

Though I have to point out that not all "labels" are a bad thing.

And I don't hate Trump, and I didn't vote for Clinton either.

Most people actually assume I'm a Republican because I voted for one, so given that I absolutely hate that, I wouldn't just assume that because or if you did hate Trump that you would vote for Clinton or supported her. I try not to impose assumptions like that on people, especially in this thread.

That said though, I am relatively surprised to hear you say you don't hate him given some of the things you have said about him, but whether or not you do I guess doesn't really matter to me. What does is discussing the opinions and points you have "on" him and trying to explain it or disprove them without personally attacking each other or digging through insults (which is apparently pretty tough to do in this thread as of late ).

EDIT

Correcting autocorrect again! Sheesh, what's the point of this thing if I have to babysit it so thoroughly?

 

[M3J]

Man, fuck Donald Trump. Couldn't think of anywhere else to vent, so here you guys go.

Spoiler: sigh

So I've been away from Mangahelpers for about a year now thanks to not really reading manga like usual, and working longer hours on my job. I've only had time for a bit of gaming and some tv... which thanks to the Angry Cheeto we have as a president, has resulted in most of that tv time being spent watching the news. I've never been into politics, until last year. I've never voted (not even for Obama for either term, and I'm black lol), but I voted for Hillary last year. Because while politicians have been trying to find ways to get people into voting for their own reasons, nothing could really make me care until I saw an opportunity to directly stand in the way of a racist's attempt at grabbing power.

I felt like an Uchiha trying to keep Tobirama Senju out of the Hokage seat. I felt good. Important, even...

...until Trump won. Then I felt defeated. I felt LITERALLY sick. And I've spent a long, long time trying to learn how to not view Trump supporters with disdain and the only thing I could come up with as a means to accomplish such a feat is to listen to their views a bit.

I should say before hand, I live in North Carolina... a southern state.

One of my co workers who voted for Trump believes that every Muslim is a terrorist. Says he read the Quran and the whole "infidels being stoned" deal means that that's what all Muslims want, and Trump's going to protect us from... fuck, I guess stoning. I stated that not all Muslims are terrorists, to which he replied "yes they are". It took 4 tries before he finally said "Oh, well I should say not all of them practice terrorism." Which was the most reasonable response I could get out of him. We then had a long conversation (by conversation, I listened as he failed to try to convince me that God exists) about religion.

One of my co workers grew up in West Virginia where there's a lot of coal mining, and he feels Trump will help bring jobs back to states with tons of job loss. I brought up the Muslim ban to him, even bringing up the Japanese internment camps after Pearl Harbor (he's half Japanese) as an example of holding an entire group of people responsible for the crimes of just a few, with "better safe than sorry" as reasoning. He brushed off the internment camps as necessary stating "It kept us safe didn't it?" I didn't know how to respond. I let it slide though because he's super religious (I'm an agnostic atheist myself) and he never watches the news. Just aligns his political beliefs with his family because... well, they're family.

Another one of my co workers voted for Trump because he believes that since he's not a politician, he won't have his hands tied by the same rules that other politicians are *shrugs*. And that him not being a politician makes him "one of us". A normal guy with normal problems. Now, this is the only Trump supporter I actually laughed at out loud, and I'm sure you all know why. Donald Trump is a multi-millionaire who reached his status from Old Money, that is to say his father set him up to succeed from the beginning.

And then there's the one guy who just wanted to vote for Trump because he believed that Hillary was just "more of the same" (referring to Obama) and that she'd try to take his guns and... ugh.

So that was a wash. Talking to local Trump supporters just made me more nauseous. So I decided maybe the smarter Trump supporters could shed some light on their support for Donald Trump and I took to Youtube (bad idea. BAD, BAD IDEA).

Ben Shapiro, Milo Yiannopolous, Stephen Crowder, Gavin whatshisface... all of them just seemed to want to vote for Trump because the thought of angering social justice warriors was appealing to them. Could only stomach a few of their videos before realizing there was nothing of worth here unless you're an asshole. I'm not an asshole. I don't think.

So I tried one more avenue. Maybe the problem was with me? Maybe I WAS a cuck? Maybe I was too soft and didn't understand the reality of the situation? Maybe what I saw as racism and sexism and xenophobia and religious discrimination were all true, but it didn't matter because he'd fix the country? So I made a list of all the reasons why I wouldn't vote for Trump, and I'm here to ask Trump voters on MH how these issues affect them, and if they don't, why they're okay with letting them hurt other people.

1: Fuck Stop and Frisk: Trump said his answer for cleaning up crime in the black community is re in stating Stop and Frisk. This was deemed unconstitutional, and yet he wants to bring it back. By voting for Donald Trump, you are directly aiding him in bringing this back. What say you, Trump supporters? Do you just not give a shit because you're (probably) not black? Or do the ends justify the means? Yes, I know that Stop and Frisk did help with lowering crime when it was still active, but you're not supposed to stoop to unconstitutional behavior just because it gets you to your desired goal faster.

2: Fuck religious discrimination: Not every Muslim is a terrorist. Don't radicalize the good Muslims by treating them like the bad Muslims. Trump didn't spring the ban on us AFTER becoming president, he waxed poetic beforehand, meaning you guys had plenty of time to decide whether or not you were okay with it. And you voted for him so... you're okay with it. Why?

3: Fuck homophobia/transphobia: Trump praised the woman who chose not to give a marriage license to a gay couple looking to have their license done at her workplace. She stated that it was against her religion and that she couldn't be a part of aiding them in committing a sin. She wasn't committing the sin though, they were. She directly discriminated against this couple and was praised for it. Oh, and now with trans people being banned from service? Motherfucker is just anti-progressive all around.

4: Fuck racism: So the one black guy at Trump's rally that was protesting? The one that got punched in the back of the head on his way out? Trump wouldn't denounce the racist who claimed "We may have to kill him next time. I dunno what he was, he coulda been a terrorist." This man was arrested and while Donald Trump claimed he'd pay his court expenses and bail him out, I dunno if he did or not. I do remember him saying "Maybe he deserved to get punched, you don't know. Who knows?"

So yeah. Voting for Trump doesn't make you a racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic... bad person. It just means you're okay with racism, sexism, homophobia, and transphobia as long as you can benefit from it somehow. Because focusing on the policies you AGREE with don't erase the policies you DON'T agree with. It's a package deal. And voting for the man who's going to put both the policies you agree with, and the policies you don't agree with into power? That's promoting those bad policies.

So, something a bit more on topic: what does everyone rely on for their "unbiased" political news coverage? It seems like there is no end-all for coverage where one side can't say "Oh no, you can't trust them because of A, B, or C." It's not like debating in the Naruto arena threads where you can just post a link to what was actually shown or stated in the manga. On the contrary it's like having 7 or 8 different versions of the manga out there, all written by someone with an agenda.

I used to go with Think Progress, but I'm more apprehensive about it ever since they accused Trump of suggesting Hillary's assassination, which based on the quote they provided, he never once even suggested. I trusted it because they had no issue with criticizing progressives/left wings/liberals' favorite people as well.

So now, go with multiple sources, as suggested? Though treat pro-republican/pro-Trump sources with suspicion. I know so many right-wing sources that have lied without remorse, it's ridiculous. One literally took a video of a young generation causing a riot or some shit due to economy or something (I forgot) and claimed it was "MUslims" rioting.

It is considerably troubling how so many people against Trump and his supporters easily rely on insults, generalizations, extremes, fearmongering and baseless accusations in order to try and prove their "points". It is ridiculous. What ever happened to actual debate? To proving a point through actual evidence (and not fiction) and not personal bias and attacks?

That's extremely ironic to the point that I think you're trolling now. Not only did you actually describe most Trump supporters, but you also described Trump himself. But then again, the message I get from Trump supporters and right wingers is that it's okay whatever shit Trump does, but if anyone else does it then boo to them!

For example: so-called patriots got butthurt over Kaepernick kneeling during the anthem and claimed it was a disrespect to the troops (which is bullshit). Although Kaepernick did not even say anything to or about the troops. Yet majority of them said nothing when Trump insulted McCain and other PoWs, as well as Humayun Khan and his family. Or, how right wingers claim we should take care of the vets and homeless first before taking in refugees, but doing absolutely nothing to help the vets or the homeless at all. It is troublilng how so many Trump supporters ignore facts, stats, and actual proof in order to cling on to their incorrect views and opinions.

I am brainwashed or somehow incompetent) or are you making this statement simply for the fact that I support Trump, which many of you also have no problem with treating me and others in the way you hate Trump so much for?

I have yet to see proof that Trump supporters are either not brainwashed or incompetent when they easily fell and continue to fall for his lies.

Funny thing, I hate Trump but I have also defended him. Problem is, majority of Muslims, LGBT communities, and immigrants have done nothing wrong, yet Trump continued to target them and lie to scapegoat them into getting support. Trump supporters however have believed the lies and went after the targets or even attack anyone who criticize Trump, no matter how valid.

 

[xi0]

I just find it humorous how willingly people against Trump engage so easily in the things that make them "sick to their stomachs" because Trump does it.

I'm not one of those people though. I'm liberal-leaning, but quite often a critic of the left. And I never saw the value in this kind of common emotional response and virtue-signaling that comes along with it. I could give two fucks about social currency.

Plus, it would be rather difficult to have a proper discussion on politics if we didn't have sides we could easily label for convenience.

That's part of the problem though IMO. In this country, if a person takes a single stance on any issue, you can almost predict with certainty which side of the debate they land on for nearly everything else.

What does is discussing the opinions and points you have "on" him and trying to explain it or disprove them without personally attacking each other or digging through insults (which is apparently pretty tough to do in this thread as of late ).

I don't believe I did any of that though? So if I'm critical of something you said, there's no reason to view it as an insult/attack on you personally. I just don't like the cult of personality surrounding politicians and public figures period. But even Trump is an exceptional example of this. I can piece together why people supported him in the election, but since being inaugurated? Doesn't make much sense to me and it likely won't unless something drastic changes in his administration.

 

[Styx]

Long post. Sorry. Kept it under spoiler tags.

@ xi0

Spoiler

I'm not one of those people though. I'm liberal-leaning, but quite often a critic of the left. And I never saw the value in this kind of common emotional response and virtue-signaling that comes along with it. I could give two fucks about social currency.

I didn't say that you were one of them [hypocrites]. I was simply discussing it/explaining it because you quoted me. The you was plural, as in general, to the discussion.

That's part of the problem though IMO. In this country, if a person takes a single stance on any issue, you can almost predict with certainty which side of the debate they land on for nearly everything else.

It's a problem in regards to that, I agree, but one we cannot change or avoid. We could ask people to not assume so much or generalize people under one belief they think that person has etc, but it won't go anyway. Especially since the people reacting like that are almost entirely too entrenched in their views to ever consider it. It's really the people and not the labels that are the problem.

And I think it can be easier to ascertain their opinions/views if you know some of their other views but I don't think just because you know of one thing they support you will know their entire stance on everything else. Though now I have to point out this is one of the many reasons why I can't stand the obsession with party colors in politics, which means agreeing with you but then I remember r/the_donald and I want to disagree with you.

I don't believe I did any of that though? So if I'm critical of something you said, there's no reason to view it as an insult/attack on you personally. I just don't like the cult of personality surrounding politicians and public figures period. But even Trump is an exceptional example of this. I can piece together why people supported him in the election, but since being inaugurated? Doesn't make much sense to me and it likely won't unless something drastic changes in his administration.

No...you're right. I don't think you have done it. And again, I'm not insulted/attacked. Just pointing something out, which I also found pretty funny.

That's reasonable, and a stance I happen to share (I hate almost every politician). However, I have to say I don't understand how you can understand why people supported him before but can't support him now. He's running exactly how he said he would, with very few exceptions almost entirely brought on the GOP and DNC (healthcare for example) resistance over everything he says or does and it is turning out well. Extremely low unemployment, high DOW records, 1million new jobs in six months, a wall, low immigration, immigration laws being heavily protected and enforced, bad deals terminated (at least we wanted dead) etc etc.

For us, it's going how we planned, so why would you think most of his supporters would be against him now? The only real complaints he is getting is from the Democratic/left leaning side of politics and globalist scum like McCain and Paul Ryan (people who support Trump's ideals until it suited them not to).

@ M3J

Spoiler

That's extremely ironic to the point that I think you're trolling now. Not only did you actually describe most Trump supporters, but you also described Trump himself. But then again, the message I get from Trump supporters and right wingers is that it's okay whatever shit Trump does, but if anyone else does it then boo to them!

I just saw at least three people (haven't checked further back than when I came back to the discussion) making complaints about Trump's behavior that they themselves, including you, openly practice in this thread. If you guys can't even commit against the things that you hate Trump for, why should any sane person take that side seriously?

I'm now supposed to, somehow, accept that you and other Trump (and supporter) haters somehow amassed the means to know each and every Trump supporter, or "most", act in a certain way because "someone you met" supposedly acted a certain way or MSM told you that's how they act or through some other confirmation bias out there.

At this point I have to ask how this is even an argument? When can we get back to the actual debating aspect of the discussion?

For example: so-called patriots got butthurt over Kaepernick kneeling during the anthem and claimed it was a disrespect to the troops (which is bullshit). Although Kaepernick did not even say anything to or about the troops. Yet majority of them said nothing when Trump insulted McCain and other PoWs, as well as Humayun Khan and his family. Or, how right wingers claim we should take care of the vets and homeless first before taking in refugees, but doing absolutely nothing to help the vets or the homeless at all. It is troublilng how so many Trump supporters ignore facts, stats, and actual proof in order to cling on to their incorrect views and opinions.

Hmm. Well if you are going to bring in conservatives' problems with Kaepernick, you could at least be honest enough to mention that he himself later acknowledged (after talking with a vet named Nate Boyer) kneeling and painting most of America (including its military) as "black hating murderers" was a mistake that he wished to change in order to show respect.

You are so blindsided by your views of conservatives you honestly think their only complaint about what Kaep did was about not honoring the flag/anthem/our troops when most of the protest came from his disgusting comments that the U.S somehow endorses murdering black people or that we, as nation, supports oppressing and destroying people of color.

"Most Conservatives/Trump supporters" do nothing to help vets? Hmm, is that a fact? Well perhaps what you really mean is conservative politicians? GOP big wigs like the turd McCain who knows the VA sucks so bad that he won't even risk his own life to go to one? What about Paul Ryan? Mitch McConnell? Jeb Bush? I can believe those people do nothing for our vets because they have done nothing for our vets, but beyond donating (which is almost impossible for poor conservatives or poor people in general) the only other thing supporters or the average joe conservative can do is vote in someone who promises to overhaul the system.

Alright, alright. Yea...its Trump supporters ignoring actual proof, (fake dossier real or non-existence evidence of Russian collusion real?), science and whatever else you can come up with. You say so, so it is.

I have yet to see proof that Trump supporters are either not brainwashed or incompetent when they easily fell and continue to fall for his lies.

"All people who disagree with me are incompetent and brainwashed". Right. That's an incredibly awesome argument you have there.

Though I'd say a good example of a brainwashed person is someone who can hear CNN producers/big wigs admit on and off camera that they peddled fiction for views or that they gave Hillary a free ride and can still come out of it with a smile on while still supporting those people and the fiction they were dishing out.

Funny thing, I hate Trump but I have also defended him. Problem is, majority of Muslims, LGBT communities, and immigrants have done nothing wrong, yet Trump continued to target them and lie to scapegoat them into getting support.

There we go again. You know the last time this claim was brought up and I proved it wrong, my posts were completely ignored or the material was refused to be acknowledged despite the audio/video/text clearly stating otherwise.

Trump has never once labeled all Muslims as bad or say that they are our enemies and before the horse is beat upon again, calling for a temporary travel suspension on "hot" countries even Obama's admin agreed upon is not somehow "anti-Muslim". And he's only ever stood up for the LGBT community (being the very first candidate to come into the campaign supporting their rights) and legal immigrants.

If you feel so strongly that this claim is true (Trump hates them & most are brainwashed retards), I encourage you to go to r/the_donald or r/askthedonald, the absolute largest pro-Trump community on the internet right now and—without insulting them because that'll get you banned—ask them how they feel etc. Ask the LGBT community, Muslims, atheists, Siks, women/immigrant/black community etc there how they can support a man that supposedly hates them.

Unless you'll go the route and claim they're all fake, like the left does to any black person who supports Trump, then nevermind. The site will do nothing for you.

In the end, I guess I could not imagine hating or disliking a group of people (different than politicians because we all know most of them are in fact scum) so thoroughly that I could make such a claim as you do and I hate leftist politics a lot.

Trump supporters however have believed the lies and went after the targets or even attack anyone who criticize Trump, no matter how valid.

Oh yea! It was Trump supporters that caused havoc across the nation with their "peaceful" protesting and MSM propaganda attacks against everyone who disagreed with them. We also can't forget that these disgusting people also did the same thing when they lost the election twice to Obama. What inbred scum.

Though I have to point out that if believing lies makes them incompetent and brainwashed then it means the left's supporters are all incompetent and brainwashed too considering they believed multiple Obama/politician's lies. Which in the end doesn't make the right/Trump supporters any special, does it?

 

[Reebi]

Love the Trump Chicken

 

[kkck]

Love the Trump Chicken

YES! I searched online for a trump rubber chicken I could purchase but no luck... I hope the trump chicken goes viral, it sounds like the sort of thing that trump would throw a twitter tantrum over.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 10, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 10, 2017 ---

Lets enjoy this magnificent beast:

 

[Reebi]

YES! I searched online for a trump rubber chicken I could purchase but no luck... I hope the trump chicken goes viral, it sounds like the sort of thing that trump would throw a twitter tantrum over.

--- Double Post Merged, Aug 10, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 10, 2017 ---

Lets enjoy this magnificent beast:

He's doing a better job than the real one

 

[ninjabot]

Okay, so, a couple of clarifications to make, since no one else has caught it yet:

I don't believe I did any of that though?

He's referring to me. Hence the reason he specifically mentioned how I said how I got literally sick when Trump won the election.

Here:

How do I find this humorous, you might be asking? Because in response to this act they hate so much, their only answer is to engage in the very same practices that make them "sick".

And here:

I just find it humorous how willingly people against Trump engage so easily in the things that make them "sick to their stomachs" because Trump does it.

By quoting my words without actually quoting my post (and thus not showing my name), it's supposed to be an attempt at confronting my thought process without confronting me. Consciously or not.

As to why his logic fails though...

It is considerably troubling how so many people against Trump and his supporters easily rely on insults, generalizations, extremes, fearmongering and baseless accusations in order to try and prove their "points". It is ridiculous. What ever happened to actual debate? To proving

a point through actual evidence (and not fiction) and not personal bias and attacks?

This isn't a mass debate on American politics. It's a thread for the discussion of American politics. Full stop. That means if I have an opinion about something concerning American politics, I get to express it. I hate our current president. I hate him as a politician and as a human being. And there's no better place to make that known than an American politics thread, since a good 60% of why I hate the man is because of his political views.

One thing I find quite humorous about this [kind of logic] is that those people are against Trump and his supporters for generalizing and insulting groups of people off the actions of a minority (false, mind you, but hey let's just go with it for now). How do I find this humorous, you might be asking? Because in response to this act they hate so much, their only answer is to engage in the very same practices that make them "sick". I would call this hypocritical, but it isn't. What it is is the practice of shallow values and a hatred so deeply rooted into them they cannot help but act on it.

This is why. You're doing it right now. Giving me reason to cringe simply from trying to communicate with you. I listed several real life interactions I had with Trump supporters. All of what I wrote shaped my view of Trump supporters, because it's first hand experience with them. You can't blame CNN. You can't blame the DNC. You can't blame Hillary. So who's left to blame? Me. For generalizing. Even worse you're acting like I'm generalizing ALL Trump supporters. I never once said all Trump supporters act the same. I said I tried to talk to a few and... got the kind of results I expected (just like I'm getting the kind of response from you that I expected). I also showed that I attempted to get another POV from the youtube community and was just turned off even more.

THEN I said I came to Mangahelpers to see if maybe there are some here that aren't... well, like the ones I've met. And you're doing an amazing job of convincing me not all Trump supporters are indoctrinated. Just amazing!

What's worse (Maybe better, depending on who you're talking to) is that I left a list of all the reasons why I couldn't vote for Trump at the bottom of my little tirade for anyone that voted for Trump to explain to me why those issues meant nothing to them in order to OPEN communication that extended beyond just calling Trump supporters idiots. But you missed that because you saw an opportunity to prop up that Whatabout-ism shield.

"Trump's a badguy cause he says mean things? Well YOU just said mean things about HIM! YOU'RE a meanie too! Ya big MEANIE!"

Seriously. You think people ever felt sorry for Jesse and James getting launched across the stratosphere after every episode of Pokemon? No, they were the BADGUYS. You don't feel sorry for the badguys. You make the badguys feel sorry. That's why it's okay to insult Donald Trump. Because he's a real life Captain Planet super villain.

I'm not gonna get into insulting you directly, but I WILL clarify something that you seem to think is a valid point, when it really, REALLY isn't. It's not even a thing.

You claim that it's amusing how people insult Trump for being a shitty human being, when we're being shitty human beings by insulting him. You're literally implying that we're no better than Donald Trump.

Let's test that theory out: So far, I've called Donald Trump a racist, homophobic, islamaphobic, transphobic angry cheeto. According to Styx, that makes me equal to Donald Trump as far as morality goes. So, let's see if everyone else in here that dislikes the man is just as bad as he is:

Spoiler: Apparently all of this shit is as bad as calling Donald Trump mean names

1: Anyone in this thread that has attempted to ban someone from entering the United States based on their religion, raise your hand.

2: Anyone in here that has banned Transexuals from serving in the military, raise your hand.

3: Anyone here who has tried to have 5 African American boys ranging from ages 13 to 16 put to death for a gang rape they didn't commit, raise your hand.

4: Anyone here that "Doesn't want black people counting their money. Only short guys wearing yarmulkes" raise your hand.

5: Anyone here who believes "laziness is a trait in blacks." Raise your hand.

6: Anyone here that believes as long as you've got enough money; women will allow you to grab em' by the pussy, raise your hand. I mean sure, SOME women are that easy. But that's a sexist generalization about women by him, that all of them are easy as long as you're rich. Fuck him.

7: Anyone here that wants to re-instate Stop and Frisk, raise your hand.

8: Anyone here that wants to torture the families of terrorists in order to find out where terrorists are hiding, raise your hand.

9: Anyone here that believes Global Warming is a hoax invented by the Chinese, raise your hand.

10: Anyone here that believes it's okay to go to war after you've been threatened verbally, raise your hand.

11: If you wanna fuck your daughter, raise your hand.

Okay. I haven't raised my hand once while typing these, so I'm still a better human being than Donald Trump. In fact, I imagine the only people that will be raising their hands for any of these are going to be Trump supporters. That's just a hunch though. And it's also not directed at ALL Trump supporters, so don't pull that.

 

[M3J]

Insulting Trump for being a shitty human being doesn't make the person a shitty human being, given that Trump actually is a shitty human being. Plus, a lot of Trump supporters are pretty bad as well. Most I've seen or talked to have been pretty horrible, from stupid and illogical to messed up (like being okay with killing illegal immigrants).

Hell, few Trump supporting politicians even support building a wall, which is not only stupid, but it's also a waste as anyone who actually has done a little bit of research would know that "illegal immigration" is also due to people getting in legally but staying past their limit. Or how they keep claiming immigrants steal jobs and would prefer to blame everyone but themselves. Ridiculous.

 

[Newkerzy]

See, about that.... I kinda agree that if you guys are going to let immigrants come in, they should at least have a basic knowledge of English and a certain set of skills, depending on what kind of job they're looking for. Without those, they would be no better off than they were back home.

For those who are already in the states, rather than expelling them, mandating immigrants to fulfill these within a certain timeframe makes much more sense.

Of course, refugees are a whole different matter. And we certainly don't need to bring up the ridiculous wall proposal.

 

[Styx]

I also love the Trump chicken, though I think the left meant to insult us with it.

Have you guys seen what's happening with the white nationalists' protest? Some people have died, almost immediately after the counter-protesters arrived. Supposedly the mayor is sending in forces to deal with the violence (can't find more info on it just yet).

Spoiler

Okay, so, a couple of clarifications to make, since no one else has caught it yet:

Spoiler

He's referring to me. Hence the reason he specifically mentioned how I said how I got literally sick when Trump won the election.

Here:

And here:

By quoting my words without actually quoting my post (and thus not showing my name), it's supposed to be an attempt at confronting my thought process without confronting me. Consciously or not.

As to why his logic fails though...


This isn't a mass debate on American politics. It's a thread for the discussion of American politics. Full stop. That means if I have an opinion about something concerning American politics, I get to express it. I hate our current president. I hate him as a politician and as a human being. And there's no better place to make that known than an American politics thread, since a good 60% of why I hate the man is because of his political views.

This is why. You're doing it right now. Giving me reason to cringe simply from trying to communicate with you. I listed several real life interactions I had with Trump supporters. All of what I wrote shaped my view of Trump supporters, because it's first hand experience with them. You can't blame CNN. You can't blame the DNC. You can't blame Hillary. So who's left to blame? Me. For generalizing. Even worse you're acting like I'm generalizing ALL Trump supporters. I never once said all Trump supporters act the same. I said I tried to talk to a few and... got the kind of results I expected (just like I'm getting the kind of response from you that I expected). I also showed that I attempted to get another POV from the youtube community and was just turned off even more.

THEN I said I came to Mangahelpers to see if maybe there are some here that aren't... well, like the ones I've met. And you're doing an amazing job of convincing me not all Trump supporters are indoctrinated. Just amazing!

What's worse (Maybe better, depending on who you're talking to) is that I left a list of all the reasons why I couldn't vote for Trump at the bottom of my little tirade for anyone that voted for Trump to explain to me why those issues meant nothing to them in order to OPEN communication that extended beyond just calling Trump supporters idiots. But you missed that because you saw an opportunity to prop up that Whatabout-ism shield.

"Trump's a badguy cause he says mean things? Well YOU just said mean things about HIM! YOU'RE a meanie too! Ya big MEANIE!"

Seriously. You think people ever felt sorry for Jesse and James getting launched across the stratosphere after every episode of Pokemon? No, they were the BADGUYS. You don't feel sorry for the badguys. You make the badguys feel sorry. That's why it's okay to insult Donald Trump. Because he's a real life Captain Planet super villain.

I'm not gonna get into insulting you directly, but I WILL clarify something that you seem to think is a valid point, when it really, REALLY isn't. It's not even a thing.

You claim that it's amusing how people insult Trump for being a shitty human being, when we're being shitty human beings by insulting him. You're literally implying that we're no better than Donald Trump.

Let's test that theory out: So far, I've called Donald Trump a racist, homophobic, islamaphobic, transphobic angry cheeto. According to Styx, that makes me equal to Donald Trump as far as morality goes. So, let's see if everyone else in here that dislikes the man is just as bad as he is:

Spoiler: Apparently all of this shit is as bad as calling Donald Trump mean names

1: Anyone in this thread that has attempted to ban someone from entering the United States based on their religion, raise your hand.

2: Anyone in here that has banned Transexuals from serving in the military, raise your hand.

3: Anyone here who has tried to have 5 African American boys ranging from ages 13 to 16 put to death for a gang rape they didn't commit, raise your hand.

4: Anyone here that "Doesn't want black people counting their money. Only short guys wearing yarmulkes" raise your hand.

5: Anyone here who believes "laziness is a trait in blacks." Raise your hand.

6: Anyone here that believes as long as you've got enough money; women will allow you to grab em' by the pussy, raise your hand. I mean sure, SOME women are that easy. But that's a sexist generalization about women by him, that all of them are easy as long as you're rich. Fuck him.

7: Anyone here that wants to re-instate Stop and Frisk, raise your hand.

8: Anyone here that wants to torture the families of terrorists in order to find out where terrorists are hiding, raise your hand.

9: Anyone here that believes Global Warming is a hoax invented by the Chinese, raise your hand.

10: Anyone here that believes it's okay to go to war after you've been threatened verbally, raise your hand.

11: If you wanna fuck your daughter, raise your hand.

Okay. I haven't raised my hand once while typing these, so I'm still a better human being than Donald Trump. In fact, I imagine the only people that will be raising their hands for any of these are going to be Trump supporters. That's just a hunch though. And it's also not directed at ALL Trump supporters, so don't pull that.

Yes, you were one of the people I was referencing. I didn't want to hit a nerve by only mentioning one person so I left it open for people to just go back and look through the posts to see the examples of what I meant.

Yes, I saw your "reasons" for hating him and I don't recall saying you shouldn't or couldn't express yourself or your dislike of Trump. My point was to highlight how easily you and many others did the same things you condemn Trump/supporters for. And that's humorous, because you nor others seem to care that you did, which means you only care if Trump/someone you dislike did it. An action you distaste so thoroughly yet you have no qualms with exercising.

And as I said, so what? You met Trump supporters that said something that ruffled your jimmies and you think you can lump them altogether and insult all of them because of this instance that no one but you can authentic? And yet you hate Trump for insulting, generalizing, etc Muslims, Immigrants etc etc? You are a shallow hypocrite if you can accept unacceptable behavior so long as it is towards people you condemn it happening or from people you side with.

And don't twist my words for the sake of your hypocritical argument. I didn't say it is amusing people insult Trump for "being a shitty person". Please learn to read correctly. I said it is amusing how you people can easily do the things you hate other people for, including Trump. Example, yet again, is your initial post generalizing all of us into a hateful, racist etc group and expressing hatred not only towards Trump but us...and yet Trump/supporters are the devil incarnate for doing the same things?

If you are going to have values, at least stand by them 100%.

Let's test that theory out: So far, I've called Donald Trump a racist, homophobic, islamaphobic, transphobic angry cheeto. According to Styx, that makes me equal to Donald Trump as far as morality goes. So, let's see if everyone else in here that dislikes the man is just as bad as he is:

Dishonesty here, or did you really not understand a thing I said? I didn't compare you to Trump for being racist, homophobic etc. I said you are no better than the people you condemn because you do the same things you hate them for, e.i generalizing us all (thinking we all hate Muslims, gays etc), insulting us etc. Though since it was missed, you are not the only person I was referencing hypocritical behavior from.

Spoiler

..until Trump won. Then I felt defeated. I felt LITERALLY sick. And I've spent a long, long time trying to learn how to not view Trump supporters with disdain and the only thing I could come up with as a means to accomplish such a feat is to listen to their views a bit.

I should say before hand, I live in North Carolina... a southern state.

One of my co workers who voted for Trump believes that every Muslim is a terrorist. Says he read the Quran and the whole "infidels being stoned" deal means that that's what all Muslims want, and Trump's going to protect us from... fuck, I guess stoning. I stated that not all Muslims are terrorists, to which he replied "yes they are". It took 4 tries before he finally said "Oh, well I should say not all of them practice terrorism." Which was the most reasonable response I could get out of him. We then had a long conversation (by conversation, I listened as he failed to try to convince me that God exists) about religion.

One of my co workers grew up in West Virginia where there's a lot of coal mining, and he feels Trump will help bring jobs back to states with tons of job loss. I brought up the Muslim ban to him, even bringing up the Japanese internment camps after Pearl Harbor (he's half Japanese) as an example of holding an entire group of people responsible for the crimes of just a few, with "better safe than sorry" as reasoning. He brushed off the internment camps as necessary stating "It kept us safe didn't it?" I didn't know how to respond. I let it slide though because he's super religious (I'm an agnostic atheist myself) and he never watches the news. Just aligns his political beliefs with his family because... well, they're family.

Another one of my co workers voted for Trump because he believes that since he's not a politician, he won't have his hands tied by the same rules that other politicians are *shrugs*. And that him not being a politician makes him "one of us". A normal guy with normal problems. Now, this is the only Trump supporter I actually laughed at out loud, and I'm sure you all know why. Donald Trump is a multi-millionaire who reached his status from Old Money, that is to say his father set him up to succeed from the beginning.

And then there's the one guy who just wanted to vote for Trump because he believed that Hillary was just "more of the same" (referring to Obama) and that she'd try to take his guns and... ugh.

So that was a wash. Talking to local Trump supporters just made me more nauseous. So I decided maybe the smarter Trump supporters could shed some light on their support for Donald Trump and I took to Youtube (bad idea. BAD, BAD IDEA).

I'll restate it. This is the bit I am referring to (when I referenced you), where you use your (few) encounters with a few Trump supporters to vent about your hatred and disgust of Trump supporters. The humorous part, since you do not seem to understand, is how easily you do the same thing you condemn us and Trump for. Or, even worse, you think it is okay to do completely unrelated to your hatred of Trump so long as it is against people you hate (us, Trump supporters, based off the interactions of a few).

It's clear the standards you possess and exercise though from your posts, but yes, you're so right,Trump's da evil debil and so are all the hateful Trumpers.

 

[ninjabot]

Yes, I saw your "reasons" for hating him and I don't recall saying you shouldn't or couldn't express yourself or your dislike of Trump. My point was to highlight how easily you and many others did the same things you condemn Trump/supporters for. And that's humorous, because you nor others seem to care that you did, which means you only care if Trump/someone you dislike did it. An action you distaste so thoroughly yet you have no qualms with exercising.

Except I haven't done what I hate Trump for. I called Trump (a bad person) bad names. Trump calls anyone who has a criticism of him bad names, bad person or not. I didn't refer to his entire race in negative connotations. He said all blacks are lazy. I didn't ban him from the country, ridicule his religion, or threaten to torture the families of terrorists.

You're trying to place name-calling on the same tier as racism and bigotry. You are reaching. Terribly.

And as I said, so what? You met Trump supporters that said something that ruffled your jimmies and you think you can lump them
altogether and insult all of them because of this instance that no one but you can authentic? And yet you hate Trump for insulting, generalizing, etc Muslims, Immigrants etc etc? You are a shallow hypocrite if you can accept unacceptable behavior so long as it is towards people you condemn it happening or from people you side with.

See, you're doing it again. I never said "ALL" Trump supporters. And I took the steps to alleviate any thoughts that I was generalizing the entire group by attempting to seek answers from multiple sources. From people I know, from the news, and from the internet. It's not my fault that all of my attempts to find a reasonable Trump supporter has fallen flat. That shit's on you guys.

Go right ahead. You can quote any point in my responses where I've said that all Trump supporters are the way the one's I've met are. I'll wait. The closest thing you'll find is me saying "Trump supporters" instead of "some Trump supporters". And I won't apologize for that, because you don't make that same distinction when referring to liberals and I'll be damned if I let you keep trying to hold me to a standard you're incapable of meeting yourself.

Especially when you consider at the very god damn beginning of my very first god damn full paragraph in this thread I state that voting for Trump doesn't make you ANY OF THE THINGS I HATE TRUMP FOR.

So yeah. Voting for Trump doesn't make you a racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic... bad person. It just means you're okay with racism, sexism, homophobia, and transphobia as long as you can benefit from it somehow. Because focusing on the policies you AGREE with don't erase the policies you DON'T agree with. It's a package deal. And voting for the man who's going to put both the policies you agree with, and the policies you don't agree with into power? That's promoting those bad policies.

This better be the last time I hear about some "generalizing" bullshit. I literally said not all of you are like that in my first full paragraph. You can't have missed it. You DIDN'T miss it. You just snipped it out of your argument to preserve your own argument.

Also, stop pulling Anakin's "From my point of view it is the Jedi who are evil!" schtick. It's not my "opinion" that the Trump supporters that I've spoken to are either immoral or ignorant. One of my co-workers claimed every single Muslim was a terrorist. That's ignorance. That's not an insult either. Ignorance is lacking knowledge. He lacked the knowledge to make the claim he was making and thus, I'm justified in calling him ignorant.

Lastly on this particular quote, "this instance that no one but you can authentic"? I couldn't care less if you believe me. That's not passive aggression either. It's not aggression at all. It's just there's no way I can prove it, and if you're not going to take my word for it, then I'm wasting my time.

And don't twist my words for the sake of your hypocritical argument. I didn't say it is amusing people insult Trump for "being a shitty person". Please learn to read correctly. I said it is amusing how you people can easily do the things you hate other people for, including Trump. Example, yet again, is your initial post generalizing all of us into a hateful, racist etc group and expressing hatred not only towards Trump but us...and yet Trump/supporters are the devil incarnate for doing the same things?

If you are going to have values, at least stand by them 100%.

Sure you did. You just tried to change it in a way that makes ME the bad guy. You keep saying that I'm doing the same things as Trump and his supporters by "generalizing", all of them which isn't what I'm doing (and isn't the reason I hate Trump or the shitty part of his supporters). I'm insulting Trump and the supporters that act like the one's I've met because of his policies and who he is as a person. Only them. You're assigning an argument to me that I'm not making because this concocted version of me is easier to vilify than the real me in these actual posts. You need to make me the enemy because it let's you avoid confronting my questions (all of which you've still avoided answering, I might add. That isn't a mistake either. You're doing it on purpose.) And you find it amusing (you don't, you're just being condescending) that my criticisms are ill natured while I'm belittling Trump and the "deplorable" part of his voter base.

I'll clarify again: I'm not condemning the entirety of Trump's voter base, or Trump himself, for how he talks about people. I'm condemning Trump for actually being a racist, sexist, homophobic, islamophobic, amoral cretin. For his actions. Likewise, his deplorable portion of followers who don't hold him accountable for the shit he's doing, and then take up arms to protect him when he's ridiculed for being a shitty human being. That's why your argument falls flat. Because I'm not a hypocrite unless I'm doing the same things that I hate Trump and the indoctrinated portion of his followers for.

I literally can't explain it any better than that. And my value's are just fine. Granted, they don't meet your standards but, not everyone can be the paradigm of leadership and moral responsibility that Donald Trump is.

Dishonesty here, or did you really not understand a thing I said? I didn't compare you to Trump for being racist, homophobic etc. I said you are no better than the people you condemn because you do the same things you hate them for, e.i generalizing us all (thinking we all hate Muslims, gays etc), insulting us etc. Though since it was missed, you are not the only person I was referencing hypocritical behavior from.

Right, I understood. I'm just re-writing your own argument because you're re-writing mine. And what do you know! You quote (and bolded!) the exact statement I was referring to earlier about failing to put the word "some", before Trump supporters. Yet chose not to point out the instances where I did. Tricky business, that. Some might call it cherry-picking. It's a fair mistake though so I won't attack you for it, but let's step into the bizarro world and assume that I WAS generalizing the entirety of Trump's support base. Let's say I DID say that all of you were amoral racist homophobic transphobic Islamaphobic assholes.

Would saying those things really be tantamount to actually banning people from entering the country due to their religion? Or preventing transexuals from serving in the military? Wanting to torture innocent civilians? Wanting to kill teenagers for a crime they didn't commit?

Of course not. So even if I was a shitty human being for generalizing all of Trump's supporters, I still come out as a better person than all of the people I'm generalizing because I've committed no atrocities equal to anything Trump or his supporters has done short of those generalizations. Hell I wish generalizing people was the worse thing Donald Trump has done in the 6 months he's been our president. I WISH.

And let's be realistic here: let's say you're "One of the good ones" (not quoted for sarcasm or any hidden meaning, just a faster way of saying a Trump supporter that doesn't actually agree with most of what he's doing). That you voted for Trump because of the parts of his policy you agreed with that were morally sound, and not because of the ones you disagreed with, that are inherently accepted as amoral by anyone that feels empathy for anyone that's not their same skin color. You still gave him the power to push forth the policies that you didn't agree with, which means you, at some point, stopped and decided that you are okay with them. If you weren't okay with a Muslim ban when he mentioned it before the election, and still voted him in, then you pushed aside your moral reasoning in order to gain whatever else you thought you'd get from a Trump presidency (let's just say more jobs for example), which means you settled on hurting people to acquire what's best for you. Even if you're the nicest person in America, you just shat on millions of people with your vote, and that's not hyperbole.

And that's far more disgusting than me generalizing anyone.

I'll restate it. This is the bit I am referring to (when I referenced you), where you use your (few) encounters with a few Trump supporters to vent about your hatred and disgust of Trump supporters. The humorous part, since you do not seem to understand, is how easily you do the same thing you condemn us and Trump for. Or, even worse, you think it is okay to do completely unrelated to your hatred of Trump so long as it is against people you hate (us, Trump supporters, based off the interactions of a few).

You're applying my hatred for Trump and his deplorable voter base to all of Trump supporters. You're doing that, not me. What's weird is that I never even said I hated the ones in my workplace. All of them are nice to me, and the one that used to live in West Virginia is a good friend of mine. It doesn't mean I can't use his dumb ass testimony as reasoning for my ridicule of (some) Trump supporters. I didn't even mention my cousin who voted for Trump (whom I also don't hate, yet don't have a problem calling a dumb fuck). Only reason I didn't mention him though is because I haven't confronted him about it the way I have these co-workers so I can't give any reasoning for him voting for him.

I'll say one last time in closing: I'm not doing the thing that I condemn SOME Trump supporters, and Trump himself for. Because generalizing isn't the thing that I criticize SOME Trump supporters for.

1: I criticize Trump for being a racist, sexist, trans... I'm not listing it all again. You knew what he was before you voted for him.
2: I criticize SOME Trump supporters for sharing Trump's beliefs about other races and religions; and voting for him to allow him to put these heinous beliefs into action.
3: I criticize ALL Trump supporters for, even if they don't share his beliefs, voting for him. Because they ENABLED him to use these discriminatory beliefs they claim they don't agree with. A perfect analogy would be you not shooting me yourself, yet handing Donald Trump a loaded gun moments after he tells me he's going to shoot me. You didn't commit the act, and you claim you're not okay with it, but you both knew his intentions AND made sure he could pull it off, so your hands aren't clean.

Feel free to call this "debate" a win if you want. I won't be responding to any reply that doesn't answer the questions asked in my first post. Literally nothing you typed so far in response to me has been helpful in alleviating the pre-concieved notions I have about a good deal of the Trump support base. On the contrary it's confirming my suspicions.

 

[M3J]

Have you guys seen what's happening with the white nationalists' protest?

They're called Nazis and KKK, dear, not "white nationalists."

And Trump has made it worse with his tweet, probably the only tweet on this subject. Dude's done the most to divide US, and he expects anyone but his brainwashed supporters to believe his bullshit? lulz.

 

[xi0]

They're called Nazis and KKK, dear, not "white nationalists."

No...? There's no need for that kind of nitpicking when Nazis and KKK members are white supremacists and therefore white nationalists.

No point in being patronizing over a sentence either.

 

[M3J]

Calling them white nationalists is an attempt to detract from the fact that they are Nazis and KKK. It matters especially because despite these guys doing Nazi salutes and chanting things that actually align with Nazi views, they're not called as such. Whereas, a BLM protest will somehow get demonized. Hell, unlike at this protest against taking down a monument, I don't remember anyone being killed by a BLM protester at a BLM protest.

 

[xi0]

Calling them white nationalists is an attempt to detract from the fact that they are Nazis and KKK. It matters especially because despite these guys doing Nazi salutes and chanting things that actually align with Nazi views, they're not called as such. Whereas, a BLM protest will somehow get demonized. Hell, unlike at this protest against taking down a monument, I don't remember anyone being killed by a BLM protester at a BLM protest.

No one sees "white nationalist" and compares that to a group like BLM, so I don't even see the point of your comparison.

One can be a white nationalist and not be a neo-Nazi or a member of the KKK. Insisting everyone there be identified as such is pointless.