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M3J

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If you think he's being condemned just for offering condolences, then you're even more ignorant than I thought. He's being condemned for only offering condolences whereas if it was an immigrant or a brown person, he'd go on a tirade justifying his rant.
 

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EDIT

They are digging through the man's house right now. We might know a possible motive soon.

The unreasonable part would be that security measures in question simply don't work. Just look at airports... They have expensive scanners and security measures and yet they somehow remain laughably ineffective at it. Expecting hotels to have anything like this and be anywhere within the realm of effective at it is nothing short of insane. Of course, part of the issue here is how useless the TSA is however that still wouldn't justify hotels doing this. It would be more of the same idiotic illusion of security without there being any actual increase in security.
Well, I didn't exactly know such security measures were unreliable in my defense. I'm not a traveler, never been to an airport. My posts were built on assumptions of the hotel's location and quality, and the effectiveness of those measures. Though the "it isn't unreasonable" bit was referencing being suspicious, generally, of luggage being hauled about like it was before the attack.

If you think he's being condemned just for offering condolences, then you're even more ignorant than I thought. He's being condemned for only offering condolences whereas if it was an immigrant or a brown person, he'd go on a tirade justifying his rant.
Right.
 
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If you think he's being condemned just for offering condolences, then you're even more ignorant than I thought. He's being condemned for only offering condolences whereas if it was an immigrant or a brown person, he'd go on a tirade justifying his rant.
Even if you're 100% correct with your assumption, what's your point? We already have enough examples of him being a fool. His statement on the matter isn't one of those examples, refreshingly.
 

M3J

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Even if you're 100% correct with your assumption, what's your point? We already have enough examples of him being a fool. His statement on the matter isn't one of those examples, refreshingly.
Wanting equality. As I said, Trump wouldn't even offer his condolences, he'd just go on a rant if a non-white committed this heinous act. And if he does really care, he should start talking about stricter gun control laws.
 

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Wanting equality. As I said, Trump wouldn't even offer his condolences, he'd just go on a rant if a non-white committed this heinous act. And if he does really care, he should start talking about stricter gun control laws.
Equality for what? You know you're only talking about a hypothetical right? That has no real bearing on what occurred during this attack?

Sorry, somehow this line of thinking feels like it's in poorer taste than however Trump has reacted to it thus far. We don't need to create hypothetical situations to criticize him over. He manages mishandling mostly everything on his own.
 

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Wanting equality. As I said, Trump wouldn't even offer his condolences, he'd just go on a rant if a non-white committed this heinous act. And if he does really care, he should start talking about stricter gun control laws.
Erh, why? That would be completely at odds with what the republican party stands for. Even beyond gun control, the republican party simply doesn't believe regulations are a solution to anything. It's completely unreasonable to think that the republican party as it is would ever support that. There certainly is an important part of the republican electorate that would support more controls when buying guns but those are not quite trump's base. Trump's base, and correct me if I am wrong, is the more gun enthusiastic part of the electorate.

I do agree with the idea that had the shooter been non white and anything but christian trump would have gone on an overtly racist rant about immigrants and bans and walls. But... what exactly is it that he is supposed to say now? Should he be saying that white immigration has to stop? Drone strike ellies island until european immigrants retroactively can't come into the country? rename mesquite so that it doesn't coincidentally sounds like mesquita even though mesquite is an actual english word? There isn't really an equivalent thing to what he usually says that he would have to say now if he had to be coherent. At least, not with the information we have right now. It would be different if an affiliation to a group that would be relevant to what he did was found but so far there is no evidence whatsoever of anything. It would be completely different if, hypothetically, the guy was found to be affiliated to sovereign citizens or something like that and then trump failed to called them out on that.
 
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Some people need to brush up on our gun laws. I keep seeing people say "time to ban machine guns", but machine guns are already banned, since 1986, even in the lax gun-law state of Nevada. The guy modified some of his weapons. Harsher gun regulations isn't going to stop a determined killer from killing people. The only people who suffer are legal, innocent Americans losing more of their rights because people act out of fear. Instead of punishing people who committed no crime, we should talk about the criminals and how better to scope out people who should not be armed. I just find it ridiculous how many people think there is a government solution to everything and that it is right to even do because of what a minority does or out of fear. There is, however, a balance between protecting civilians and our Constitutional rights, but it surely doesn't lie in removing our rights.

Anyway, update on the gunman. According to Fox News he sent "tens of thousands of dollars" overseas to the Philippines, and that he disappeared for "long stretches" at a time (according to neighbors etc). He also had cameras in the hotel room (for recording him shooting people). And some of the heavily modified and extremely difficult to get weapons (lots of federal and local agency applications required) he had were AR-15-style and AK-47-style rifles, the later of which requires dozens of new parts to be converted into a full-auto variant (which isn't full automatic but a sort of "tricked out" version). Oh, and according to a federal spokesperson, the shooter worked as a letter carrier IRS agent for nearly a decade in '70s and '80s.
 

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Instead of punishing people who committed no crime, we should talk about the criminals and how better to scope out people who should not be armed.
Yeah but I think the point here is that this guy had no criminal record or warning signs that he'd be capable of something like this. Even "reasonable" gun control laws wouldn't have really done anything to prevent it. The only thing that could have potentially stopped this specific attack would be scanners in hotels, but that kind of thing would also be a logistical nightmare.
 

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Yeah but I think the point here is that this guy had no criminal record or warning signs that he'd be capable of something like this. Even "reasonable" gun control laws wouldn't have really done anything to prevent it. The only thing that could have potentially stopped this specific attack would be scanners in hotels, but that kind of thing would also be a logistical nightmare.
Yes, that's true. He passed all background checks and he didn't give any signs of mental deterioration or instability, but I think the real solution is tending to our mentally ill and improving mental checks on people purchasing fire arms. Our society is decaying and we need to do something about it. Perhaps make it so that if you own something like an assault rifle or more than a couple, you must undergo a mental health test annually or something. I know this kind of thing pisses conservatives (mostly big-wig Republicans) off but we do need to do something to stop misuse. We can try solutions that do not impede on our rights, but we can't do that if one side wants a complete removal of our rights and the other doesn't want to do anything at all to help the situation.
 

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Yes, that's true. He passed all background checks and he didn't give any signs of mental deterioration or instability, but I think the real solution is tending to our mentally ill and improving mental checks on people purchasing fire arms. Our society is decaying and we need to do something about it. Perhaps make it so that if you own something like an assault rifle or more than a couple, you must undergo a mental health test annually or something. I know this kind of thing pisses conservatives (mostly big-wig Republicans) off but we do need to do something to stop misuse. We can try solutions that do not impede on our rights, but we can't do that if one side wants a complete removal of our rights and the other doesn't want to do anything at all to help the situation.
The thing with this is a case could be made that it's a violation of a citizen's rights. Not even mentioning that it'd be highly unlikely that the NRA and the gun lobby wouldn't throw heaps of money towards members of congress/senate to prevent something like this occurring.

If someone under goes a psychiatric test, what would qualify them to lose their rights to own a gun? Mental health really isn't a black and white thing.
 

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Update: Sheriff Lombardo has suggested the shooter was radicalized (Islam) and that authorities are trying to discover the sources.

The thing with this is a case could be made that it's a violation of a citizen's rights. Not even mentioning that it'd be highly unlikely that the NRA and the gun lobby wouldn't throw heaps of money towards members of congress/senate to prevent something like this occurring.

If someone under goes a psychiatric test, what would qualify them to lose their rights to own a gun? Mental health really isn't a black and white thing.
I certainly don't want it to have to be a thing as it would be all sorts of wrong, but we can't do nothing, at least not forever. Sooner or later we're going to get a leader that will be willing to obliterate our rights due to the actions of a criminal. Republicans should act now to try and improve the situation.

As for the test, I'm not sure. We could leave it to professionals and states to determine what should and should not disqualify someone to the right to own a firearm, at least an assault rifle.
 

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As for the test, I'm not sure. We could leave it to professionals and states to determine what should and should not disqualify someone to the right to own a firearm, at least an assault rifle.
Perhaps this could work as a preventative measure. But I think it's a slippery slope to suggest that someone that generally isn't considered a danger to themselves/others wouldn't be allowed to protect themselves. Now of course, they wouldn't need an AR to do that, but what guns/ammo/accessories are legal and what aren't varies by states as well.
 

M3J

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Equality for what? You know you're only talking about a hypothetical right? That has no real bearing on what occurred during this attack?

Sorry, somehow this line of thinking feels like it's in poorer taste than however Trump has reacted to it thus far. We don't need to create hypothetical situations to criticize him over. He manages mishandling mostly everything on his own.
If a Muslim or a black person committed the attack, they'd be demonized and have the entire religion/race be called terrorists/thugs/whatnot. Almost every time a white person does it, he gets humanized. If someone like Dylann Roof gets humanized by the press, what's to say another massacre won't happen because the criminal thinks he might be seen as a martyr or at least, not as bad?

Why should this piece of shit be humanized? Why do some headlines say he was a grandfather who liked music? Why does that matter when he shot over 600 people and killed over 50 people? Fuck that.
Erh, why? That would be completely at odds with what the republican party stands for. Even beyond gun control, the republican party simply doesn't believe regulations are a solution to anything. It's completely unreasonable to think that the republican party as it is would ever support that. There certainly is an important part of the republican electorate that would support more controls when buying guns but those are not quite trump's base. Trump's base, and correct me if I am wrong, is the more gun enthusiastic part of the electorate.

I do agree with the idea that had the shooter been non white and anything but christian trump would have gone on an overtly racist rant about immigrants and bans and walls. But... what exactly is it that he is supposed to say now? Should he be saying that white immigration has to stop? Drone strike ellies island until european immigrants retroactively can't come into the country? rename mesquite so that it doesn't coincidentally sounds like mesquita even though mesquite is an actual english word? There isn't really an equivalent thing to what he usually says that he would have to say now if he had to be coherent. At least, not with the information we have right now. It would be different if an affiliation to a group that would be relevant to what he did was found but so far there is no evidence whatsoever of anything. It would be completely different if, hypothetically, the guy was found to be affiliated to sovereign citizens or something like that and then trump failed to called them out on that.
I know that, but again, Trump can show he cares and redeem himself very slightly in the eyes of those who are against him. Though to add to what you said, republicans, Trump supporter or not, are dumb enough to support being allowed guns into sporting events, where there have been tons of fights. And Trump was at one point a democrat.

No, he should be saying gun control must get stricter, and that white people are as much capable of committing crimes and acts of terrorism as any other race or religion. All these republicans do is offer thoughts, prayers, and condolences while fighting to get more guns into hands of more people, and Trump, if he truly was an anti-establishment person wanting to drain the swamp, could start by outing them and/or talking about gun problems.

As it stands, we have idiots who will blame people but not guns for the shooting. While that's valid, the problem is that guns make it easier to kill so many people so quickly, and these gun obsessed freaks don't realize that.
 

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I know that, but again, Trump can show he cares and redeem himself very slightly in the eyes of those who are against him. Though to add to what you said, republicans, Trump supporter or not, are dumb enough to support being allowed guns into sporting events, where there have been tons of fights. And Trump was at one point a democrat.

No, he should be saying gun control must get stricter, and that white people are as much capable of committing crimes and acts of terrorism as any other race or religion. All these republicans do is offer thoughts, prayers, and condolences while fighting to get more guns into hands of more people, and Trump, if he truly was an anti-establishment person wanting to drain the swamp, could start by outing them and/or talking about gun problems.

As it stands, we have idiots who will blame people but not guns for the shooting. While that's valid, the problem is that guns make it easier to kill so many people so quickly, and these gun obsessed freaks don't realize that.
Redeem himself in the eyes of people who don't like him? You mean like how hillary tried to pander to republicans during the election? Remember how well that worked out for her? Trump pandering to people who dislike him by doing something that the entirety of his base and party would hate would be astonishingly stupid even by trump standards. And so what if trump was a registered democrat? His actual political views, which he has detailed in the books published under his name, are basically what he has been trying to do since he got elected. barring a few incoherent ramblings of course.

No, he shouldn't. It is just not something that we should have ANY reason to think would make sense from his point of view. Trump's base, as far as I can tell anyways, are the biggest gun rights supporters in the country. I won't pretend to understand why anyone would treat each and every gun he/she owns as his/her actual penis however to me it seems fairly evident that trump would piss off his base along with the so far very loyal NRA if he did anything like what you suggest. Trump literally has no reason to do what you are suggesting. And don't get me wrong, I am all for gun control, but I don't see how what you are suggesting makes any amount of sense.
 

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Redeem himself in the eyes of people who don't like him? You mean like how hillary tried to pander to republicans during the election? Remember how well that worked out for her? Trump pandering to people who dislike him by doing something that the entirety of his base and party would hate would be astonishingly stupid even by trump standards. And so what if trump was a registered democrat? His actual political views, which he has detailed in the books published under his name, are basically what he has been trying to do since he got elected. barring a few incoherent ramblings of course.

No, he shouldn't. It is just not something that we should have ANY reason to think would make sense from his point of view. Trump's base, as far as I can tell anyways, are the biggest gun rights supporters in the country. I won't pretend to understand why anyone would treat each and every gun he/she owns as his/her actual penis however to me it seems fairly evident that trump would piss off his base along with the so far very loyal NRA if he did anything like what you suggest. Trump literally has no reason to do what you are suggesting. And don't get me wrong, I am all for gun control, but I don't see how what you are suggesting makes any amount of sense.
And how Hillary tried to pander to the left. But I'm not saying redeem himself, just redeem himself slightly. I don't think anything short of completely going against the republicans will even redeem him halfway in the left wing's eyes. Definitely won't in my eyes.

Not necessarily. He'd be warming up his critics a bit, although a lot of them would know better than to take the bait. But as long as he keeps doing it, he can soften them up, though it's a gamble in hoping his supporter/s would justify it as part of a plan.

I know that. And it makes sense given Trump is somewhat trying to please his critics, although some of his supporters weren't happy with that.
 

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And how Hillary tried to pander to the left. But I'm not saying redeem himself, just redeem himself slightly. I don't think anything short of completely going against the republicans will even redeem him halfway in the left wing's eyes. Definitely won't in my eyes.

Not necessarily. He'd be warming up his critics a bit, although a lot of them would know better than to take the bait. But as long as he keeps doing it, he can soften them up, though it's a gamble in hoping his supporter/s would justify it as part of a plan.

I know that. And it makes sense given Trump is somewhat trying to please his critics, although some of his supporters weren't happy with that.
I mean, that is technically true but.... there is literally no reason for him to give two shits about that. How you even got from whatever started this convo to that is beyond me.

When has trump tried to please his critics? His usual strategy so far has been to double down on everything he says when he takes criticism for something. Is this about the deficit deal with democrats? He did something politically convenient to him which won't affect his base while taking on the republican establishment which his base conveniently hates.
 

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If a Muslim or a black person committed the attack, they'd be demonized and have the entire religion/race be called terrorists/thugs/whatnot. Almost every time a white person does it, he gets humanized. If someone like Dylann Roof gets humanized by the press, what's to say another massacre won't happen because the criminal thinks he might be seen as a martyr or at least, not as bad?

Why should this piece of shit be humanized? Why do some headlines say he was a grandfather who liked music? Why does that matter when he shot over 600 people and killed over 50 people? Fuck that.
Wtf do you even mean by "humanized"? So, people who commit heinous acts shouldn't even be regarded as human? What use is that exactly? The entire point of understanding incidents like this is to remind ourselves that humans ARE capable of doing these kinds of horrific things. If you'd rather treat them like boogeymen and have them remain an "evil mystery", go ahead... but there's nothing to be gained from doing so.

His motivation being incredibly unclear is what is rather unique about this case. People who do these kinds of things are usually men more than half his age, forget what ethnicity they are.
 

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Have you guys seen the nearly 20 minute long recording of a taxi driver of the shooting? I really think there were two shooters. If you listen to and watch the video, you can hear really far off gunshots and then closer gunshots while the driver is directly under and even around the hotel. There's one moment where you can hear two guns being fired off at once, too.

 

M3J

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I mean, that is technically true but.... there is literally no reason for him to give two shits about that. How you even got from whatever started this convo to that is beyond me.

When has trump tried to please his critics? His usual strategy so far has been to double down on everything he says when he takes criticism for something. Is this about the deficit deal with democrats? He did something politically convenient to him which won't affect his base while taking on the republican establishment which his base conveniently hates.
He did few weeks ago? I forgot exactly what, given he's done other dumb shit.... like throwing paper towels at the crowd in Puerto Rico. Truly one of the biggest dumbasses to ever hold the office, and we had Bush Jr.

It's something that pissed off republicans, though I'm not sure if they were just republicans who supported him or his supporters.
Wtf do you even mean by "humanized"? So, people who commit heinous acts shouldn't even be regarded as human? What use is that exactly? The entire point of understanding incidents like this is to remind ourselves that humans ARE capable of doing these kinds of horrific things. If you'd rather treat them like boogeymen and have them remain an "evil mystery", go ahead... but there's nothing to be gained from doing so.

His motivation being incredibly unclear is what is rather unique about this case. People who do these kinds of things are usually men more than half his age, forget what ethnicity they are.
No they shouldn't. Why should a white supremacist or Islamist terrorist be called a loving person or academically gifted? They shouldn't be portrayed as people who are or were good.

Yeah, so it is weird that he's accused of terrorism, although I'm guilty of doing that as well. Doesn't align with the definition thus far.
 

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Have you guys seen the nearly 20 minute long recording of a taxi driver of the shooting? I really think there were two shooters. If you listen to and watch the video, you can hear really far off gunshots and then closer gunshots while the driver is directly under and even around the hotel. There's one moment where you can hear two guns being fired off at once, too.

So more fuel for Alex Jones?

There are definitely some weird inconsistencies, but it's worth noting that this guy had a two room suite at the corner of the building and was firing out of windows at either end, facing different directions. Tough to know where this person is situated, as well as determining the fidelity of the audio being captured on their phone.

The weapon's rate of fire is the more weird thing. He did have more than a dozen different guns though. They had bump-fire stocks, which allow something similar-sounding to fully-automatic fire, but it's not necessarily as consistent as a a fully automatic firing mechanism.

Whenever these kinds of cover-up conspiracies pop up, it always seems weird that someone would try to perpetrate such a tthing in an area with thousands of witnesses.

No they shouldn't. Why should a white supremacist or Islamist terrorist be called a loving person or academically gifted? They shouldn't be portrayed as people who are or were good.

Yeah, so it is weird that he's accused of terrorism, although I'm guilty of doing that as well. Doesn't align with the definition thus far.
No one starts off as homocidal maniacs though. Most people aren't overtly like this unless they're from a place where these kinds of things are more accepted.

There's no way to know whether it's technically a terrorist attack because the motivations still aren't clear.
 
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