American Politics

xi0

あの術
最終形態 / Saishuu Keitai / Final Form
Administrator
Joined
Feb 3, 2006
Messages
65,180
Reaction score
30,230
Gender
Male
Country
Pyke
So why not get rid of the police force until someone really figures it out, apart from accountability. Many victims have said cops didn't help or made things worse, especially for women and people with mental illness. If someone's having mental health problems, having the cops there just makes it more likely that the person will get shot. If a victim of rape speaks up, the cops are more likely to laugh at her and blame her. How do you deal with stuff like that?
I'm not logically opposed to eliminating funding for the most problematic departments. There's a lot of resources involved with police reform, but I'm not very educated on it specifically. I do think getting rid of them completely without any structure to replace it is throwing the baby out with the bathwater though.
 

SnuggleCupcake

Registered User
中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
Joined
May 15, 2020
Messages
128
Reaction score
263
Gender
Female
Country
Fun Forum
They just don't deserve rehabitiliation if they don't want to change for the better.
They deserve a shot at the system. If they aren't redeemable they won't rehabilitate.

Alternatively, you can also argue that in regards to laws, they're not necessarily good, like aiding Jewish people in Germany. Breaking the law saved countless of lives. With religion though, I have no idea.
Civil disobedience is pretty fundamental to helping people fight bigotry because, surprise surprise, the laws in the US are typically designed around protecting white supremacy.

That's mostly true, but what if these people are pitted against each other? We've had ordinary citizens fight each other because of different beliefs and ideas, especially on religion.
I understand the effectiveness of systems like the one Cambridge Analytica built to ramp up divisiveness among people. However, the fact that weapons like that are necessary to radicalize people should be proof enough that evil is learned, it isn't inherent.

Yes, but this isn't an "every man/woman or group for themselves" sort of thing, it's a group vs. group sort of thing. And cops are doing horrible things, even flaunting laws because they know they can get away with it. They're proving human nature isn't necessarily good, and so are the people who are against the protests or the racists threatening violence against protesters.
We already talked about people from places of power/authority being the corrupt ones in cases where stuff like "lord of the flies" proves to be true. The cops are the second highest rung on that ladder (under the rich). Of course they're corrupt and evil, especially so when they can do so much evil and face no consequence.

Fix it yourself how? As long as there are guards and the likes to oppose us, especially with weapons, and not be held accountable or fear the consequences, we'll always be stuck in a pickle.
Lots of people have died and will die to secure the rights of oppressed groups. There have been attempted genocides, there have been slaughters, entire cities have burned at the hands of our governments either orders, or negligence. This isn't anything new. You can live under a boot, or you can fight. I personally think there are better ways to clean boots than by licking them.
 

Notthetreeguy

Registered User
初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner
Joined
May 29, 2020
Messages
3
Reaction score
85
Age
126
Country
Oracion Seis
^ just wanted to mention I don't agree with Israel being innocent but agree with most other things.
Well I said that he should bring proof for his statement (which she did then) and not start the blame game without it.

Look! I'm not giving U.S. a free pass by blaming Israel. I'm just pointing out from where these none sense killing actions adopted. You can relate to how Israel police treat Palestinians who are unarmed and possess no threat. They randomly kill people without any reason like what happen George and even laugh about it. The dude told him i can't breath but he still shoot him anyway. It's so similar and you can't deny it. Just like last week Israeli police killed a disabled guy for no reason then apologized about it.
Yeah i can't deny it but this is not the problem. I give you an example about what is my problem with that kind argumentation:
You are working in a company as an electrician and your job is it to maintain old elevators for other companies. This elevators are all manually controlled. One day your company make a contract to maintenance a elevator which is a bit special. It is also manually controlled but parts of the constructing like the door system are working a bit differently and are harder to maintain but it still fulfil the secure standards. Some day someone comes to harm at the special elevator due to a mistake you made during a maintenance. Who is at fault?
A) The manufacturing company because they sold an elevator with such a complicated system
B) Your boss/company because they should be aware about how much knowledge you have
C) You because you should have had enough knowledge to adapt it to maintain it correctly
D) The person(s) that were training you

The keywords to the solution are knowledge and adapting. So the right answers in every common case is B/C or sometimes both. Why?
B because they chose who will train you so that you can handle your daily job but also they should check if the trainers are teaching you the right stuff.
C is maybe a bit difficult to understand from the US-position because it goes with a scheme which is not commonly used there. In many high developed countries it is common to train people not only the basic to handle their job but also how to adapt it to different cases so they can easier adapt to usually or not usually cases so they have more work flexibility. Also it makes it easier to find a new job in the same sector. So you should have been able to handle this job.

But this is not the case in the US? Yes this might be right but why has a high developed country like the US such a system that a police officer can not combine basis anatomy with the training methods he learnt? Could he really not come to the conclusion that this might not be fitting in this situation...
My Problems with the US-System are:
  1. Responsibility: It is not only the police officers that get not judged for their actions. To much people are not able to take responsibility for their own actions and sue someone else for it and get high compensations for it. For my Example in the US would maybe even A or D work because of a logic which is in my opinion not fitting for a high developed country.
  2. The not existent Education System for low to medium class workers: So that they can't increase their income in the long run and can be put under hard pressure by companies. Also it denies to build a strong middle-class so that the inequality will rise more and more (The inequality is by the way higher in the US then in Russia)


Where are you from? if you don't mind saying.
Germany

Because U.S. has many races who are American,
This also apply to other countries still the problem with police brutality is that it is not such a present topic there.

They have to be repressive and brutal to have control people when they do crimes or this country will turn in a big civil war between several parties, However that doesn't justify police killing innocent people left and right like we see now.
This should be just a tactic in areas where a war can always break out and still in a country like the US the police need to behave like that what could be the reasons? Maybe that the US civilians own more guns alone then the civilians from the countries with the second to 25 most guns.
Also interesting is that always around 5% are always carrying a gun with them and over 6% keep them at unsecured spots. So in the US it is a daily scenario for the police to meet a lot of people carrying a gun with them. So if someone resist it is this risk that he/she maybe has a gun with him. Also the worst case scenario is that someone goes rampage with an automatic or sub-automatic weapon. Self defence okay but I don't fucking need a automatic gun for that such weapons have not to be in the hand of civilians not in any case or situation.
Source
 

M3J

MH Senpai
神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
48,828
Reaction score
17,292
Gender
Male
Country
Akatsuki
I'm not logically opposed to eliminating funding for the most problematic departments. There's a lot of resources involved with police reform, but I'm not very educated on it specifically. I do think getting rid of them completely without any structure to replace it is throwing the baby out with the bathwater though.
That's a good point there, and I didn't think of that. Like, at least get something set up before getting rid of police.

They deserve a shot at the system. If they aren't redeemable they won't rehabilitate.
I honestly for the most part disagree because... they chose to rape, they chose to murder, they chose to prey on kids. Just something about those that shouldn't let them free on the streets, other than murder out of self-defense.



Civil disobedience is pretty fundamental to helping people fight bigotry because, surprise surprise, the laws in the US are typically designed around protecting white supremacy.
I agree. I'm not saying anything against civil disobedience, and I think the government and cops are lucky the protesters aren't returning the violence, for now.


I understand the effectiveness of systems like the one Cambridge Analytica built to ramp up divisiveness among people. However, the fact that weapons like that are necessary to radicalize people should be proof enough that evil is learned, it isn't inherent.



We already talked about people from places of power/authority being the corrupt ones in cases where stuff like "lord of the flies" proves to be true. The cops are the second highest rung on that ladder (under the rich). Of course they're corrupt and evil, especially so when they can do so much evil and face no consequence.



Lots of people have died and will die to secure the rights of oppressed groups. There have been attempted genocides, there have been slaughters, entire cities have burned at the hands of our governments either orders, or negligence. This isn't anything new. You can live under a boot, or you can fight. I personally think there are better ways to clean boots than by licking them.
Debatable. I did read about how our ancestors (back when there were more than one species of homo sapiens or something) were pretty violent and could have killed our cousin species.

What about the civilians that defend cops killing innocent people? Turn everything into me vs. them and are okay with killing, like KKK?

I'm all for fighting, I've no problem with that. I'm just saying, humans are or can be evil and tend to be kept in line because of religion and laws. What happens if we weren't conditioned by society to believe what's okay and what's not?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

 

SharkBait

MH Senpai
伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
14,075
Reaction score
6,934
Gender
Male
Country
United States
Defunding police usually means cuts in training first and *****ier hiring practices. Not even talking about those who argue for abolishing police as a whole.
Defund police proponents look at those municipalities where police funding accounts for significant chunks of a municipalities budget (in the extreme, more than half). Considering FBI has services in many cities, towns, and regions, AND State Police are a thing, then it doesn't seem there is must justification for needing Large municipal police budgets considering they do not have to cover the roles those services cover. Oddly, in places with these large police budgets, there are consistent shortfalls in staffing and budgets of services essential to police (Rape Crime labs need expanding, so much backlog and not even staff, DNA sequencing and identification (so much backlog not enough investigators, tons of backlog), Coroner's Office (tons of backlog, not enough staffing, wages are low, long hours) making it even more questionable and senseless for police accounting for more than 50% of an entire municipalities budget.

A decrease of police staff and vehicles could be beneficial (theres no reason to do high speed chase anymore, beyond both destroying vehicles, hence requiring the purchase of more vehicles, but the realization that high speed chases do more harm than good especially with the number of bystanders injured).

Funding towards training -> current events have highlighted that somwhere along the line, training has clearly failed with a crop of police officers who are bad apples that are spoling the entire barrel. Police Academies need to have their budgets reviewed, assessments retooled, and a focus towards an altered mindset in policing (more of a "if you didn't have a gun or a badge how would handle this situation" type of mentality)

More neighborhood led watches and coalitions have contributed to decreased crime and can be effective (let the neighborhood watches and what not be presences that are visible to dissuade would be ne'er do good'rs from doing the bad work [https://www.rootcausecoalition.org/...fect-of-Local-Nonprofits-on-Violent-Crime.pdf]

A decrease of police staff could be beneficial: Consider browsing a months worth of news, only issues we need for police would be
-hostage situations
-gang-warfare
-mass/school shooting responses
-Riot

Specialized services could be used for
-Drug enforcement - like trafficking and drug ring busts
-Sex and Child trafficking - police have successfully posed as folks online to catch perpertrators
-Cybercrime - police have successfully investigated
-Traffic infractions -
-Serial Killing investigations -
 

SnuggleCupcake

Registered User
中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
Joined
May 15, 2020
Messages
128
Reaction score
263
Gender
Female
Country
Fun Forum
I honestly for the most part disagree because... they chose to rape, they chose to murder, they chose to prey on kids. Just something about those that shouldn't let them free on the streets, other than murder out of self-defense.
I believe in justice over vengeance.

I'm all for fighting, I've no problem with that. I'm just saying, humans are or can be evil and tend to be kept in line because of religion and laws. What happens if we weren't conditioned by society to believe what's okay and what's not?
Again, all studies and evidence shows that humans that are not conditioned to believe themselves above others are good by nature.
 

M3J

MH Senpai
神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
48,828
Reaction score
17,292
Gender
Male
Country
Akatsuki
I believe in justice over vengeance.



Again, all studies and evidence shows that humans that are not conditioned to believe themselves above others are good by nature.
So do I. It's not really about vengeance as it is about keeping them away from others/preventing more victims.

I still debate that.
 

SharkBait

MH Senpai
伝説メンバー / Densetsu / Legendary Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
14,075
Reaction score
6,934
Gender
Male
Country
United States
Bad news for Trump. Even hardened party loyalists don't want you.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---


Where the other politicians at y'all! Definitely makes me feel warmer towards him
 

SnuggleCupcake

Registered User
中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
Joined
May 15, 2020
Messages
128
Reaction score
263
Gender
Female
Country
Fun Forum
So do I. It's not really about vengeance as it is about keeping them away from others/preventing more victims.

I still debate that.
It's basically a proven fact that the prison system hyper increases rates of recidivism. Saying "well, their only victims in prison are other inmates" is silly when you have the possibility of reforming and rehabilitating them so that, no matter what environment, there are no more victims.
 

xi0

あの術
最終形態 / Saishuu Keitai / Final Form
Administrator
Joined
Feb 3, 2006
Messages
65,180
Reaction score
30,230
Gender
Male
Country
Pyke
Where the other politicians at y'all! Definitely makes me feel warmer towards him
This reads rather weird to me. On the one hand, his father supported the civil rights movement so it's interesting to maybe see him waking up to reality. On the other hand, he acted like a complete coward in regard to Trump until this past year... so idk
 

M3J

MH Senpai
神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
48,828
Reaction score
17,292
Gender
Male
Country
Akatsuki
It's basically a proven fact that the prison system hyper increases rates of recidivism. Saying "well, their only victims in prison are other inmates" is silly when you have the possibility of reforming and rehabilitating them so that, no matter what environment, there are no more victims.
Again, we agree on this. Prisons should be rehabilitiation centers, if anything, not punishment centers where inmates are basically slaves working at 1/4 the minimum wage. However, how do you change serial killers or sexual assaulters?


Until republicans actually vote for Biden, their public condemnation means nothing.
 

SnuggleCupcake

Registered User
中級員 / Chuukyuuin / Member
Joined
May 15, 2020
Messages
128
Reaction score
263
Gender
Female
Country
Fun Forum
However, how do you change serial killers or sexual assaulters?
I know people who commit sexual assault can be redeemed. I've met plenty of guys who are haunted by their past actions, and plenty more who are working through the realization that coerced consent isn't consent. It's a process on that end.

As for serial killers, I dunno! That's a process for a therapist to create. However, I can say that most peoples process is individual even when the diagnosis is the same. If a bunch of people end up in a psychiatric hospital for attempting suicide their groups may be the same but their individual care will vary.
 

xi0

あの術
最終形態 / Saishuu Keitai / Final Form
Administrator
Joined
Feb 3, 2006
Messages
65,180
Reaction score
30,230
Gender
Male
Country
Pyke
Until republicans actually vote for Biden, their public condemnation means nothing.
Biden isn't a solution for real change either, he's just somewhat less shitty and embarrassing.
 

Ramen

Registered User
MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted
Joined
Oct 19, 2019
Messages
7,997
Reaction score
8,492
Gender
Male
Country
Canada
Bad news for Trump. Even hardened party loyalists don't want you.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---


Where the other politicians at y'all! Definitely makes me feel warmer towards him
Mitt Romney and Jeb Bush aren't surprising.
 

M3J

MH Senpai
神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
48,828
Reaction score
17,292
Gender
Male
Country
Akatsuki
How many sexual assaults have they committed? And I don't mean coerced consent, but a bit more violent.
 

Ramen

Registered User
MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted
Joined
Oct 19, 2019
Messages
7,997
Reaction score
8,492
Gender
Male
Country
Canada
I do not support the death penalty though. The inmates dying I agree with but the way the US does it is extremely flawed.
 

M3J

MH Senpai
神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
48,828
Reaction score
17,292
Gender
Male
Country
Akatsuki
Biden isn't a solution for real change either, he's just somewhat less shitty and embarrassing.
I agree with you, but that's exactly why I'm saying if they're serious, they'll vote for Biden (or whoever is likely to beat Trump).
 

Ramen

Registered User
MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted
Joined
Oct 19, 2019
Messages
7,997
Reaction score
8,492
Gender
Male
Country
Canada
I agree with you, but that's exactly why I'm saying if they're serious, they'll vote for Biden (or whoever is likely to beat Trump).
I know Polls don't matter given what happened in 2016 but even Fox came out with a poll IIRC that had Biden ahead.
 

M3J

MH Senpai
神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
48,828
Reaction score
17,292
Gender
Male
Country
Akatsuki
We still have few more months left for Biden to make more gaffes.
 

SonOfDaws

Registered User
英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
Messages
897
Reaction score
4,978
Gender
Male
Country
Tartaros
What is the nuance here that I'm missing? Where is the story incomplete? He gassed citizens so he could take a picture for his campaign. His motivation is only to make him look like a strongman.


What does being tougher on destructive people pretending to be protesters have to do with anything? Those people he gassed weren't pretending to be protesters.
"Protesters" lit a church historical significant to the US presidents only hours prior and, without a proper and particularly difficult investigation, it's very difficult to tell who in a large group is peaceful and who's just pretending to be for the moment. While there's debate to be had about the particular actions taken, taking no action would look incredibly weak which is particularly bad for a leader or authority. An analogy, when a teacher gets hit in the back of the head while they're facing the board and nobody confesses or gets the finger pointed at them, then the teacher can either do nothing in which case worse will surely come, guess who did it (a risk), investigate it later and hope more incidents don't follow before blame can be laid, or they can simply punish the whole class for either being guilty or being complacent with the act. The nuance is how an authority chooses to handle blatant disrespect and disregard for their authority.
 
Top