American Politics

kkck

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I know you're not this dense. But perhaps you are.

It's not an answer because I asked for details.

Taking a gun somewhere doesn't mean you turn into ____.

If I concealed carried into a bank and make a deposit and leave - I'm not a bank-robber.

If I CC'd in a bank that was actively being robbed (but was not a part of it) - I'm STILL not a bank-robber.

If I CC'd in a bank that was robbed incidentally and I used that weapon to defend myself - I'm not only not a bank-robber I'm not a vigilante - I'm a citizen acting in self-defense.

If a cop stopped a bank heist with a gun, because he was called there to do so, he actively used his weapon to enforce the law.




Spell it out for me. He took the gun to a protest...... AND THEN? How. EXACTLY. Did he use his weapon to 'enforce the law'? What EXACTLY did he do?


- did he go around pointing it at people he thought were out of line?
- did he make actionable threats to people burning things?
- did he fire a warning shot into the air?




Tell me what he did that was an act of vigilantism. Having a gun for self-defense purposes =/= vigilantism.
but... that's not even relevant to this. He testified why he went there. If he says he went there, armed, to protect businesses then that alone is a admission of vigilantism (though to be fair he'd be as much a vigilante if he went there armed with a pipe or even unarmed). A citizen should simply have no business doing that, that is literally law enforcement's job.
 

M3J

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Is there a point to arguing about this when by all facts and definition, it's vigilantism. Being armed in an area he shouldn't have been in, especially knowing there'd be civil unrest, is proof enough that he was planning to be a vigilante.
 

kkck

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Is there a point to arguing about this when by all facts and definition, it's vigilantism. Being armed in an area he shouldn't have been in, especially knowing there'd be civil unrest, is proof enough that he was planning to be a vigilante.
I suppose you technically could be armed in a powder keg of an area and not be a vigilante but... that's simply not rittenhouse's situation. He testified why he went there. The reason he gave for being there is textbook vigilantism. He went there to act as a vigilante.. That he technically didn't "enforce the law" is a non issue here. Not that a vigilante can in any capacity enforce the law. You might as well argue that batman is a vigilante when he is feeding criminals their kneecaps but not when he is brooding on top of a gargoyle...
 

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but... that's not even relevant to this. He testified why he went there. If he says he went there, armed, to protect businesses then that alone is a admission of vigilantism (though to be fair he'd be as much a vigilante if he went there armed with a pipe or even unarmed). A citizen should simply have no business doing that, that is literally law enforcement's job.
So, he didn't in fact actually do any vigilantism then.

There's your answer.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Is there a point to arguing about this when by all facts and definition, it's vigilantism. Being armed in an area he shouldn't have been in, especially knowing there'd be civil unrest, is proof enough that he was planning to be a vigilante.
Yes, there's a point, Mr. Too Cowardly To Directly Respond.

Words have meaning, so there's that.

Beyond that is the legal implications.




It's an irrefutable fact that people died as a result of Kyle shooting them. If he was acting in a vigilante he'd be outside the law and guilty. If he was acting in self-defense, as he was, then he's not guilty.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

also "an area he shouldn't have been in" is, yet again, another non-fact.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

He testified he... went there to act as a vigilante..
When? Where? Kyle said "I went there to be a vigilante" did he?

That he technically didn't "enforce the law" is a non issue here.
Ummm, no. You can't 'be a vigilante' without, you know, actually being a vigilante. Is he a LARPer? Sure. Wannabe? Yeah, maybe. But you have to act in a certain manner or else you are not the thing you claim.

If I put on a 3-piece and walk around the financial district of Manhattan, I'm not suddenly a day-trader. I have to actually make a trade or two. Even if I purposefully went to Wall Street, suit on, with trading in mind. I'm not the [ACTUAL THING] until I've done it.

Not that a vigilante can in any capacity enforce the law. You might as well argue that batman is a vigilante when he is feeding criminals their kneecaps but not when he is brooding on top of a gargoyle...
Umm, yes, that's exactly what Batman is - a defacto vigilante. He, and I know this is going to be hard to swallow, DOES things that a vigilante does. As in he ACTUALLY does something. That by extension makes him a vigilante. I'm not sure anyone would argue Batman ISN'T a vigilante figure. And, when pressed as to why, they could point to any number of things - just pick any comic book ever.

He'd be a vigilante both in fights and out of them (while brooding as you put it) because he's actually done the thing at some point.

As opposed to when pressed you cannot name a single thing that Kyle actually did that would be an act of vigilantism.

And, that's they WHOLE POINT of a vigilante - to actually enforce the law extrajudiciously. No, it's not a formal, legal, justified form of enforcing the law. But it is, in their own mind, an ATTEMPT at just that. It is self-justified enforcement of the law.

Apples to oranges. Par for the course in this thread. Making a million poor analogies doesn't mean anything.
 

M3J

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I suppose you technically could be armed in a powder keg of an area and not be a vigilante but... that's simply not rittenhouse's situation. He testified why he went there. The reason he gave for being there is textbook vigilantism. He went there to act as a vigilante.. That he technically didn't "enforce the law" is a non issue here. Not that a vigilante can in any capacity enforce the law. You might as well argue that batman is a vigilante when he is feeding criminals their kneecaps but not when he is brooding on top of a gargoyle...
Thing is, I don't think most right wingers will agree since he had a gun and shot BLM protesters, two who have a bad past (that most people didn't know about until after the fact). They'll deny vigilantism even though it fits the definition perfectly. Check out how they keep getting him to appear in their shows and whatnot, no accountability whatsoever.
 

kkck

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Thing is, I don't think most right wingers will agree since he had a gun and shot BLM protesters, two who have a bad past (that most people didn't know about until after the fact). They'll deny vigilantism even though it fits the definition perfectly. Check out how they keep getting him to appear in their shows and whatnot, no accountability whatsoever.
What I am saying is not about the trial or it's results. It's about just in general what he was doing there. Which is vigilantism (let alone profoundly idiotic and disturbing). The trial just wasn't about vigilantism. It was about whether what he did was self defense (on which he had the facts on his side) and then the other charges which he was let go over technicalities.
 

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Thing is, I don't think most right wingers will agree since he had a gun and shot BLM protesters, two who have a bad past (that most people didn't know about until after the fact). They'll deny vigilantism even though it fits the definition perfectly. Check out how they keep getting him to appear in their shows and whatnot, no accountability whatsoever.
How should he be held accountable?

What did he do that was an act of vigilantism?

What matter does it make that those shot were BLM protestors?

What does their past have to do with anything - hint, no one is claiming his actions are justified for their previous behavior; that argument was never made. It IS beyond hilarious that you couldn't throw a rock (or a 556 cartridge for that matter) without hitting absolute scum and villainy though. Really speaks to the quality of those out "protesting" does it not? Oh, and it was more than just two that had a bad past - it was every single person that opposed Kyle that night. All 3 shot had an outstanding rap sheet (as did those associating with them). But, I'm not surprised you're here opining without the facts STILL. I mean, you've got them wrong at every turn already, who stop now?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

What I am saying is not about the trial or it's results.
Well, legally it is. But, also the results underpin the logical arguments as well.

It's about just in general what he was doing there. Which is vigilantism (let alone profoundly idiotic and disturbing).
Being somewhere is vigilantism :cookiehand

The trial just wasn't about vigilantism. It was about whether what he did was self defense (on which he had the facts on his side)
No, the DEFENSE was about self-defense. The prosecution was very much that Kyle was acting as a vigilante.

and then the other charges which he was let go over technicalities.
If by 'technicalities' you mean what was found to be spurious charges, then yes. I'm assuming you're talking about the gun charge.
 

xi0

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An 18yo from the Midwest (how's that for generalizations?) comes across as a total douchebag - shocking news at 11.

It's almost as if people are imperfect, he never should have been canonized a saint, and teenagers are typically pretty dumb.

Still has very little to do with the case/right to self-defense.
Teenagers shouldn't be legally allowed to go looking for trouble with a firearm. Would you consider that a ridiculous statement?
 

M3J

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What I am saying is not about the trial or it's results. It's about just in general what he was doing there. Which is vigilantism (let alone profoundly idiotic and disturbing). The trial just wasn't about vigilantism. It was about whether what he did was self defense (on which he had the facts on his side) and then the other charges which he was let go over technicalities.
Where am I talking about the trial or results? I'm also talking about what he was doing there, and he'd still get support even if it was him killing the protesters in cold blood.
 

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You know what's come to my attention?

We all took solace in knowing that Ahmaud Arbery's murderers were brought to justice, but there was something none of us actually brought up during the aftermath:


It took video of the shooting going viral, in May of last year, for the men to be arrested. The clip showing Arbery’s death became public a few weeks before the release of the video showing George Floyd being murdered by a police officer. In retrospect, the two share a disturbing connection: The videos contradicted the statements of local authorities that both Floyd and Arbery were responsible for their own deaths. Without the video evidence—and the national protest, outrage, and scrutiny they sparked—neither man’s killers would have seen the inside of a courtroom. It took a series of extraordinary events to force the system to regard their deaths as crimes worth investigating.

His killers were brought to justice and the system worked... in spite of attempts by people to make sure it doesn't.

The jury ultimately found the defense’s arguments unpersuasive, and the evidence against the defendants overwhelming. But had it been up to the folks in charge in Glynn County, the jury never would have seen that evidence. To say the system worked in this case is like saying your car made it home—after your entire family had to get out and push it miles down a dirt road.

This isn't actually a win for the good guys. A working system can't work when you have people actively undermining it.
 
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M3J

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Just further proof that the justice system is mainly for white wealthy men and white men. ALso scary to think of how many white men have gotten away with murder and horrible acts towards Black people since they both first shared land. Even white people who supported Black people were victims of white supremacists.
 

xi0

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Just further proof that the justice system is mainly for white wealthy men and white men.
It doesn't even need to be limited to that. The fact is more white people die at the hands of police than any other demographic, but people have such insane biases that talking about the dynamics of bad policing in minority communities and how they're disproportionately effected by it renders the entire conversation moot to them.
 

M3J

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It doesn't even need to be limited to that. The fact is more white people die at the hands of police than any other demographic, but people have such insane biases that talking about the dynamics of bad policing in minority communities and how they're disproportionately effected by it renders the entire conversation moot to them.
But higher percentage of Black people are killed by police than any other race or ethnicity. Though either way, we need to talk about how policing is done, assuming lot of white victims were killed unnecessarily by police. Especially when mental health crisis is going on, and the police are called when they're not equipped to handle that.
 

ninjabot

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Somebody bring some uterus-having forum members in here so we can get their opinions on what’s happening with Roe v. Wade.
 

M3J

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That's what I said...
You were talking about more white people being killed?

Somebody bring some uterus-having forum members in here so we can get their opinions on what’s happening with Roe v. Wade.
which political affiliation do you want to hear from though?
 

ninjabot

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which political affiliation do you want to hear from though?
Both, honestly. kckk is an example of a right leaning person that can hold a respectful conversation with someone from a different political affiliation without being bad faith. They exist.
 

M3J

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it's difficult to find that among republicans and among Bernie bros, from what I've seen. I was wondering since most conservative women would oppose abortion; I think Tomi is the only conservative that is pro-choice?
 

Sanity Check

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Somebody bring some uterus-having forum members in here so we can get their opinions on what’s happening with Roe v. Wade.


Abortions and Crime: Freakonomics


This is by far, the best content ever published on the topic of abortion.

Recommended.

Even though it is very sad. :hurr
 
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