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xi0

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A scientific definition is NOT a scientific fact. If you see a woman only as people who are born as a woman, that has nothing to do with anti science just because science does not. That is even true if you see homosexuality as a disease or vice versa see ADHD as just being an energetic kid without coining it as disease.
What exactly are you trying to say here? What are the ontological underpinnings? Is this just semantics? A definition isn't any less "wrong" than a fact. Is the scientific consensus on gender going to boomerang back to being synonymous with sex in the next decade? Is the current thinking regarding this topic really that tentative?
 

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It would be a more worthwhile debate to talk about what free speech actually is and what freedom means in the context of speech.
Freedom of speech and freedom are two things that do not exist, despite what people may think.
 

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What exactly are you trying to say here? What are the ontological underpinnings? Is this just semantics? A definition isn't any less "wrong" than a fact. Is the scientific consensus on gender going to boomerang back to being synonymous with sex in the next decade? Is the current thinking regarding this topic really that tentative?
I am saying that a definition cannot be right or wrong, it is a question of consensus, while a fact can be right or wrong and even if most people agree on it it might be wrong.

But A LOT of discussion is not about the facts, which would have merit, but about definitions, which has zero merit because people just throw their own definition towards the other person in a "yes,no" screaming match.

And science cannot help with that, thus it should not be invoked for that. Science does not say that the word "woman" has to refer to gender rather than sex.
What science can do (and what has more merit in a discussion) is ascertain that there are many people who have a biological sex that is different from what they feel as and that these people's mental health can improve a lot by letting them live as the other sex, while it can suffer a lot if they are rejected.

But once the discussion comes down to "What is a woman", we are leaving the basis of facts. WHat is a woman is a question of consensus, and if the consensus of the people you argue with is different than your own, the only argument left is power (and thus in our modern times a propaganda screaming match).

"Transwomen are women" is a sentence that claims to be a fact, while it is not. Transwomen SHOULD be seen as women for arguments that are based on facts, and it makes more sense to state it that way, because elseways, by removing the discussion from a factual basis, you bring it into a world where everyone just believes what the consensus of their peergroup is instead of having to face actual arguments.

Freedom of speech and freedom are two things that do not exist, despite what people may think.
There are societies with more free speech and societies with less free speech, so it exists.
 

xi0

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I am saying that a definition cannot be right or wrong, it is a question of consensus, while a fact can be right or wrong and even if most people agree on it it might be wrong.

But A LOT of discussion is not about the facts, which would have merit, but about definitions, which has zero merit because people just throw their own definition towards the other person in a "yes,no" screaming match.

And science cannot help with that, thus it should not be invoked for that. Science does not say that the word "woman" has to refer to gender rather than sex.
What science can do (and what has more merit in a discussion) is ascertain that there are many people who have a biological sex that is different from what they feel as and that these people's mental health can improve a lot by letting them live as the other sex, while it can suffer a lot if they are rejected.

But once the discussion comes down to "What is a woman", we are leaving the basis of facts. WHat is a woman is a question of consensus, and if the consensus of the people you argue with is different than your own, the only argument left is power (and thus in our modern times a propaganda screaming match).

"Transwomen are women" is a sentence that claims to be a fact, while it is not. Transwomen SHOULD be seen as women for arguments that are based on facts, and it makes more sense to state it that way, because elseways, by removing the discussion from a factual basis, you bring it into a world where everyone just believes what the consensus of their peergroup is instead of having to face actual arguments.
Why does this kind of point need to be emphasized when the people who'd prefer to deny people rights and dignity in life do not care about facts, definitions, or science in the first place?

The reality is, very few who insist on a heteronormative gender binary are interested in treating trans people as equals, regardless of what kind of concessions you or anyone else is willing to make in regards to language. Being "nice" about their narrowmindedness accomplishes what exactly?
 

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There are societies with more free speech and societies with less free speech, so it exists.
The fact that you had to say "more" proves my point.
 

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Why does this kind of point need to be emphasized when the people who'd prefer to deny people rights and dignity in life do not care about facts, definitions, or science in the first place?

The reality is, very few who insist on a heteronormative gender binary are interested in treating trans people as equals, regardless of what kind of concessions you or anyone else is willing to make in regards to language. Being "nice" about their narrowmindedness accomplishes what exactly?
Because you make it easier for them to strenghten their view. If you leave the basis of facts yourself and just use definitions or claims like "my body my choice" or "transwomen are women", then you are going into a field where facts do not matter, and that makes it easy for those who want to ignore facts anyway to fight against you.

It is not about being nice, it is about being effective. It is much harder to argue against denying trans rights impacting trans peoples' health negatively than it is to argue that being female should be defined as having a vagina. The second is a point that most people who dont know a lot about the issue agree with and thus they are not going to look deeper into it, because they think that is what matters.
The former point is based on a fact, it can be proven and even those who are not fully onboard with trans rights are often going to want that trans people are not hurt.

YOu basically remove the fight from a culture war and put it onto the ground of a fact and lay out a solid argument instead of making it a yes/no debate. And facts matter. They might work long term, but they do matter, even if many people want to ignore them.

That is why the right usually does not debate facts but tries to turn things into culture wars. It makes it easier for them.
The fact that you had to say "more" proves my point.
No. It does not. Obviously, the fact that some countries are bigger and some are smaller implies that countries have size, while some countries being more free than others implies there is such a thing as freedom.
 

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If there was such thing as freedom, you wouldn't need to say "more." Fact is, there's none, not as long as society at the very least dictates what's normal and ostracizes or mistreats those that don't fit their definition of normal or acceptable.
 

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If there was such thing as freedom, you wouldn't need to say "more." Fact is, there's none, not as long as society at the very least dictates what's normal and ostracizes or mistreats those that don't fit their definition of normal or acceptable.
Yes I would need to say more, because there is a scale to it with more than two states.
I also need to say warmer or colder, with "hot" and "cold" being illdefined and depending on circumstance.

And thus of course there are societies that are free and societies that are unfree, just like there is hot and cold water, but it is measured in different degrees of that word and how we should settle and define it is an important debate.
 

xi0

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It is not about being nice, it is about being effective.
Show me where this is effective?

Because I understand your premise, but where is the practice? Because if someone is settled on their "definition", what could you possibly say that you would deem effective or constructive that results in a greater understanding or appreciation?
 

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Freedom and temperature or size are not the same thing. If you claim there's freedom of speech somewhere, then there has to be freedom of speech, completely, point blank. No "more freedom of speech" or "less," because that still implies there's some limit.

I'd like examples of these societies and places you keep talking about where complete freedom of speech is celebrated. Meaning, no backlash no matter what they say.
 

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Freedom and temperature or size are not the same thing. If you claim there's freedom of speech somewhere, then there has to be freedom of speech, completely, point blank. No "more freedom of speech" or "less," because that still implies there's some limit.

I'd like examples of these societies and places you keep talking about where complete freedom of speech is celebrated. Meaning, no backlash no matter what they say.
There is freedom of speech somewhere just as much as it is hot somewhere.
You are being illogical.

Just because there is no such thing as "perfect freedom of speech", at least until we defined what that means, does not mean that freedom of speech does not exist. Just like there is no "absolut heat", at least not until you defined what that means.

But it has merit to talk about what freedom of speech should mean.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Show me where this is effective?

Because I understand your premise, but where is the practice? Because if someone is settled on their "definition", what could you possibly say that you would deem effective or constructive that results in a greater understanding or appreciation?
Long term, facts usually prevail. For example, the case against hitting children became far more effective when science started suggesting its negative effects on children. The debate was not "it is mean" anymore, which is just a moral statement, it was that it has provably bad effects on children, which led doctors, teachers and generally the people who educate them and later politicians to reconsider, even tho a lot of the people still believed it is ok to do so.

It is never about saying that one argument that instantly makes someone 180, it is about slowly building a case that has answers for all the questions someone who is undecided or new to the topic might have.

Making it into a yes/no debate means to make it easier for people to just ignore the facts and just never ask questions, and that makes even those who might change their mind, or those who have not made up their minds yet, less likely to form an opinion on it that is outside of their bubble's comfort zone.
 

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Uh Brandon, by America on the move, you mean on the move towards collapse? Don't think I forgot about those student loans, you only paid $17 billion, I'm still waiting for the other 1.7 Trillion and the reparations for the people who did pay their loans!!!:eek::emobirb😭
 

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Colleges scramble to recruit students as nationwide enrollment plunges

Hundreds of thousands have left the college pipeline amid pandemic turmoil and the lure of jobs




Demise of higher education otw?
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---



France’s Far Right Turn
A rising nationalist faction has grown its coalition by appealing to Catholic identity and anti-immigrant sentiment — and reshaped the country’s race for president.



This was unexpected.
 

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They must have realized Brandon wouldn’t pay their student loans xD
 

xi0

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Student loan forgiveness was never on the table during past administrations either, so acting like that's a factor is hilarious
 

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im expecting 4 future:
2024-2028 republicans elected, nothing good happens for 4 years, slow spreading DEPRESSION.
2028-2036 democrats elected, does nothing good short or long term, economy CRASHES, standard of living drops, no climate action, political polarization and many go crazy due to depression from staring at screen 24/7 and crazy radical democrat ideas,etc .
2036-2038 Rapid deterioration of United States. GREAT DEPRESSION! No one working cus socialist/communist takeover and/or civil war. Climate change has gotten too bad, debt stunts the growth of the economy that is already destroyed, No one goes to school, population is too high for equal adequate amounts of healthcare/housing but too low for significant labor. Major increase in democrats and crime destroying everything! Mass immigration destroying the culture and spirit of The 50 States and turning USA into 3rd world country.
2038-2042 America COLLAPSES bringing down the rest of the world and/or Nukess!
 

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There is freedom of speech somewhere just as much as it is hot somewhere.
You are being illogical.

Just because there is no such thing as "perfect freedom of speech", at least until we defined what that means, does not mean that freedom of speech does not exist. Just like there is no "absolut heat", at least not until you defined what that means.

But it has merit to talk about what freedom of speech should mean.
You said there's freedom of speech, yet you keep saying "more" and can't give me any evidence or a place that does have freedom of speech.

While there's "more" and "less" freedom of speech, there's no complete freedom of speech. You're being illogical if you think otherwise, especially when you're unable to provide any sort of evidence whatsoever.

Okay, what is your definition of it then? My definition is no backlash, punishment, or actions affecting the person who said something. If a woman says she wants to kill a man, she wouldn't get in trouble or face consequences that would affect her life. If a Hindu says something horrible about Christians, the Hindu wouldn't get in trouble with Christians, other than criticism.

USA seems to be about freedom of speech, but no such thing exists.

im expecting 4 future:
2024-2028 republicans elected, nothing good happens for 4 years, slow spreading DEPRESSION.
2028-2036 democrats elected, does nothing good short or long term, economy CRASHES, standard of living drops, no climate action, political polarization and many go crazy due to depression from staring at screen 24/7 and crazy radical democrat ideas,etc .
2036-2038 Rapid deterioration of United States. GREAT DEPRESSION! No one working cus socialist/communist takeover and/or civil war. Climate change has gotten too bad, debt stunts the growth of the economy that is already destroyed, No one goes to school, population is too high for equal adequate amounts of healthcare/housing but too low for significant labor. Major increase in democrats and crime destroying everything! Mass immigration destroying the culture and spirit of The 50 States and turning USA into 3rd world country.
2038-2042 America COLLAPSES bringing down the rest of the world and/or Nukess!
Usually, if we go by history, republicans are elected, and the economy goes down, often by a lot, whereas democrats that come after them manage to get the economy back up. "SoCiAlIsM bAd" saved USA from total ruin, when FDR came into power, and even the silly "pull yourselves by your bootstraps!" people ended up doing what he wanted Americans to do, and they benefitted from it.

I know you and the other right have no idea what socialism or communism is about, but under socialism people can still work and do work. It's just that shitty people like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos aren't stealing wages and making 100-1000x times more than the workers are, when the workers are the backbone behind wealthy people's wealth.

But then again, you're probably just trolling, even though I do know the right can be supremely ignorant.
 

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Thats is IF you go by history, but the world changes! Now we have democrat Brandon administration crashing the economy. Times have changed. We already have some socialism, capitalism is fine and all we need is regulation, but we will never achieve that with the constant battle between the left and right and these immigrants working for low wages ughhh.
 

M3J

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The world still hasn't changed much. Trump was the one who started the downfall by ignoring covid until he couldn't, and there's a good chance that businesses are purposely holding workers hostages by increasing costs so they accept lower wages and fewer benefits.

Capitalism has been doing horribly for decades, if not at least a good century. "SoCiAlIsM" hasn't been doing well because we have politicians trying to gut it and hurt people.

Not immigrants' fault. They have to make a living.
 
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