American Politics

xi0

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So... are you under the impression that people on the conservative end of the spectrum gather, both males and females, and go "Ok people, how do we go about making female's lives absolutely fucking miserable?".
In effect? Yes

We see now with some state legislatures proposing to ban certain forms of contraception that this was never really about "murdering babies".
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

At this point it's just difficult for me to not see it as the government reasserting control over women's bodies
 

kkck

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In effect? Yes

We see now with some state legislatures proposing to ban certain forms of contraception that this was never really about "murdering babies".
What are you referring to? I know of some instances of conservative incorrectly believing some forms of contraception inducing abortions but to me it's a stretch that even that is motivated by hatred.

The abortion debate in the US (and perhaps in other places) is broken beyond repair... You either are either a baby murderer or a woman hater/enslaver, no middle ground or grey areas or nuances. I hope both sides have fun murdering each other during the civil war.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Then again, the right wing has way more guns than the left wing so maybe the right wing will have more fun here.
 

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I am really worried about a conservative big win in the midterms and in 2024.
Right now, america is dangerously close to not being a full democracy anymore.

The institutions were kinda broken before, but at least since 2000, republicans are increasingly hungry to abuse that. And they are succeeding with a strategy that consistently gets them wins of 40 over 60, and it seems to me they are striving for 30 over 70 on the long term by abusing courts, legislation, police and the street and of course taking away voting rights.

I also worry about what will happen in an america even more unequal than it is now. There were enough riots in the last few years to be worried about a situation in which people are even more angry and hopeless.
 

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I am really worried about a conservative big win in the midterms and in 2024.
Right now, america is dangerously close to not being a full democracy anymore.

The institutions were kinda broken before, but at least since 2000, republicans are increasingly hungry to abuse that. And they are succeeding with a strategy that consistently gets them wins of 40 over 60, and it seems to me they are striving for 30 over 70 on the long term by abusing courts, legislation, police and the street and of course taking away voting rights.

I also worry about what will happen in an america even more unequal than it is now. There were enough riots in the last few years to be worried about a situation in which people are even more angry and hopeless.
I would argue that it hasn't been a full democracy for as long as it's had the electoral college. All we can do is wait and see but my main concern right now is further radicalization by both the right wing followed by the left wing. You have the right wing with it's roe v wade win.. Which is from their perspective their single most important win in decades. It's not that big a stretch that what follows is the left wing mobilizing on a number of fronts. From the right wing perspective you basically have all the child murderers showing their true colors. And that against the left wing's position that the right wing is a bunch of women haters and women slavers. A country of child murderers and women enslavers is not workable...
 

xi0

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People are missing the point though, since Manchin voted against getting rid of the filibuster, even if they had 50 votes it wouldn't have passed. I hope old Nancy is ready to campaign for him more, god forbid WV isn't "blue" anymore.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

What are you referring to? I know of some instances of conservative incorrectly believing some forms of contraception inducing abortions but to me it's a stretch that even that is motivated by hatred.

The abortion debate in the US (and perhaps in other places) is broken beyond repair... You either are either a baby murderer or a woman hater/enslaver, no middle ground or grey areas or nuances. I hope both sides have fun murdering each other during the civil war.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

Then again, the right wing has way more guns than the left wing so maybe the right wing will have more fun here.
Just google "states banning contraception". Many places aren't ruling it out, including removing access to Plan B or banning IUDs. We have that piece of shit Peter Thiel underling running for Senate in Arizona who is on record saying states should be allowed to ban them.

It's not an abortion debate anymore, it was only that nominally. Just look at conservatives' new favorite buzzword "groomer" and how they're using it.
 

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I would argue that it hasn't been a full democracy for as long as it's had the electoral college. All we can do is wait and see but my main concern right now is further radicalization by both the right wing followed by the left wing. You have the right wing with it's roe v wade win.. Which is from their perspective their single most important win in decades. It's not that big a stretch that what follows is the left wing mobilizing on a number of fronts. From the right wing perspective you basically have all the child murderers showing their true colors. And that against the left wing's position that the right wing is a bunch of women haters and women slavers. A country of child murderers and women enslavers is not workable...
I do agree that the US had always had a system that i do not see as very democratic (but so do some european states), but it was a democracy by fact. As in, even with all the broken parts of the system, as long as the people in power knew restraint and had some gentlemen's agreements, you could generally trust that there would be a peaceful change of government, decently independent courts and so on. There was always corruption and meddling, but there never was a complete lack or ignorance of rule of law or a general disrespect of institutions.

And yes, i can fully see riots like in the hightime of BLM following this. But right now, tbh, i dont think you have to be outspoken leftwing to want to riot against this. One party wants to destroy democracy and everybody acts like the republicans are still a normal party. They are not a normal middle right or far right party anymore, they are openly pushing for overturning law, manipulating law or using pressure of the street whenever they can.

There are many pandorra's box scenarios that can unfold if the first actual election won by democrats is overturned by republicans.
 

xi0

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--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

I would argue that it hasn't been a full democracy for as long as it's had the electoral college. All we can do is wait and see but my main concern right now is further radicalization by both the right wing followed by the left wing. You have the right wing with it's roe v wade win.. Which is from their perspective their single most important win in decades. It's not that big a stretch that what follows is the left wing mobilizing on a number of fronts. From the right wing perspective you basically have all the child murderers showing their true colors. And that against the left wing's position that the right wing is a bunch of women haters and women slavers. A country of child murderers and women enslavers is not workable...
Do you think the implications of those two "positions" are equal? Because the knock-on effect of either of those things are substantially different. If someone isn't an advocate for women's health, then what are they exactly? What does hyperbole actually do there?
 

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From talking to people and occasionally on the internet? You can just google this, there's even a wikipedia article about this. The point I made was ultimately that people in the US have a variety of views on abortion and what it's limits should be, dunno why you are harping on that specific bit.
I have googled it, and I've had anti-abortionists show me videos and links, and it's looked like bullshit. Actually, there's only one or two "evidence" they provided that the left were for late-term abortion.


So... are you under the impression that people on the conservative end of the spectrum gather, both males and females, and go "Ok people, how do we go about making female's lives absolutely fucking miserable?"'
I am not under the impression, I know they're finding ways to control women and take away their rights. This isn't something that can be denied when all the evidence is there, and I'm not sure how you're still denying it when I already listed the things they're doing that hurts women. Same group of people that attacks Islam or Islamic countries for its regressive views on women or pretend to care about women to justify transphobia.


Everyone is influenced by their circumstances and environment. That doesn't mean the tens of millions of people on the conservative end of the spectrum feel nothing but abject hatred of women. What difference would religion or race make in this case? Would race or religion merit outright dismissing their views on the subject? Also, just to be clear, you are asking for stats that would prove that views on abortion held by the 350 million people in the US are more nuanced than merely for or against?
I'm asking where you got that stat from. Did you make it up or did you get it from an actual source?

Plenty of difference. More white women are likely to be conservative, and more Christians are likely to support abortion.


It's absolutely true that folk on the conservative end don't want anything to do with the otherwise aborted babies once they are born. But I would argue this is better explained by their ideology rather than abject hatred. With their believes being that fetuses from conception are human beings that have their own right to live and that society should have minimal amount of government and little to no social programs.

I mean, why would conservatives hate women? how does that make any sense? How does that explain anything going on? This whole thing with the left wing screaming at conservatives that they hate women is ultimately about dismissing what conservative's views on abortions actually are... It's obviously easier to dismiss someone who hates females than someone who claims that fetuses are human beings.
That's horseshit though. Majority don't care about fetuses or see them as human beings, especially when they barely see already-born human beings as human beings unless they're wealthy. Again, if they don't hate women and actually see fetuses as having their own right to live, then why are they trying to punish women for MISCARRIAGES? Yanno, fetuses dying through no fault of women? Why are so many of them trying to get the women thrown in jail or killed? Why aren't they trying to do more to make it easier for women to decide to keep their babies? They can believe in little to no social programs and still want to support babies. But they don't truly believe in minimal amount of government, otherwise they wouldn't be trying to ban abortion.


Why do you keep asking the same question as if I didn't explain how the majority know they hate women? Their views on abortion conflicts with what they're actually doing, and for your claims that they don't hate women, they keep proving they do. Not to mention, I've seen conservatives want to take away women's right to vote, especially during Trump's campaigns in 2016 and 2020 when women were criticizing him. Maybe some voters don't hate women, but their voice is drowned out by those that do.
 

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I think the question is not "who hates whom" but rather what goals are systematically achieved.

Abortion is about more than fetusses, it is also about old republican tropes. One being "everyone is responsible for themselves", thus there are no social reasons for women to get pregnant without wanting to, except if she lacks self control.

It is, in a way, saying: "You might have scientists and doctors on your side, but our moral, our way of looking at the world, is stronger than that"

It is a show of force, made possible by republicans successfully claiming the supreme court. It should be understood as that, i dont think it has a real basis in religion, it has more of a basis in rejecting liberalism and rejecting seeing a problem under its social circumstances.

And republicans will try to keep moving with that and take more civil rights away so that their opponents have a harder time to fight back. Personally, i would assume they are going for universities next and for schools and try to exert control over these.

What better show of force would their be than stopping american studies, gender studies and so on?
 

xi0

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And republicans will try to keep moving with that and take more civil rights away so that their opponents have a harder time to fight back. Personally, i would assume they are going for universities next and for schools and try to exert control over these.

What better show of force would their be than stopping american studies, gender studies and so on?
They're already doing this in many places, litigating what can and can't be taught in the classroom.

Teachers already make jack shit and are principally responsible for helping form young minds, but politicians think they have a better grasp on how to do that. Since when were they more trustworthy then our teachers? Or even worse they demonize and slur anyone involved in pedagogy because what they wish to teach offends their sensibilities.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

You have fucking politicians literally calling anyone who brings up Sex Ed a "groomer"...
 

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They're already doing this in many places, litigating what can and can't be taught in the classroom.

Teachers already make jack shit and are principally responsible for helping form young minds, but politicians think they have a better grasp on how to do that. Since when were they more trustworthy then our teachers? Or even worse they demonize and slur anyone involved in pedagogy because what they wish to teach offends their sensibilities.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

You have fucking politicians literally calling anyone who brings up Sex Ed a "groomer"...
I know, however, schools and universities are still liberal strongholds and schoolboards are controlled by dem leaning people in many places. Being able to still exert control or curriculum would be an even bigger victory than roe wade in my book
 

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I think the question is not "who hates whom" but rather what goals are systematically achieved.

Abortion is about more than fetusses, it is also about old republican tropes. One being "everyone is responsible for themselves", thus there are no social reasons for women to get pregnant without wanting to, except if she lacks self control.

It is, in a way, saying: "You might have scientists and doctors on your side, but our moral, our way of looking at the world, is stronger than that"

It is a show of force, made possible by republicans successfully claiming the supreme court. It should be understood as that, i dont think it has a real basis in religion, it has more of a basis in rejecting liberalism and rejecting seeing a problem under its social circumstances.

And republicans will try to keep moving with that and take more civil rights away so that their opponents have a harder time to fight back. Personally, i would assume they are going for universities next and for schools and try to exert control over these.

What better show of force would their be than stopping american studies, gender studies and so on?

It's not really about tropes or whatnot, it's about controlling women's bodies and apparently having supplies of infants, as well as ensuring the white race/Christians don't become "extinct." everything else is just an excuse to fool the voters. They're pretending to be moral to have support from those who don't know better, but they know they're doing the opposite.
 

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It's not really about tropes or whatnot, it's about controlling women's bodies and apparently having supplies of infants, as well as ensuring the white race/Christians don't become "extinct." everything else is just an excuse to fool the voters. They're pretending to be moral to have support from those who don't know better, but they know they're doing the opposite.
If it was about that, they would have to go the opposite way. The woman that abort babies will more likely vote democratic than they will vote republican, so their children are also likely to vote more democratic than republican.
Also, people under 50 vote majorly democratic. For republicans, if it was about voting, the lower the birthrate, the better.

I think it is about the fact that they CAN control this more than about controlling it being a goal in itself.
 

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Do you think the implications of those two "positions" are equal? Because the knock-on effect of either of those things are substantially different. If someone isn't an advocate for women's health, then what are they exactly? What does hyperbole actually do there?
Of course they aren't equal. But beyond that, both views amount to both sides seeing themselves as the good guys who are fighting abject evil and there no acknowledgement whatsoever of what the other side is saying.
 

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Depends on the specifics of the proposal? I think something like making sure that gas producers in the US are by law required to first and foremost cover US demand and then export what is left over. Other countries around take similar measures to guarantee it's own food needs for instance. Though such measure, assuming it even makes sense and is viable, would be dead on arrival anyways. Imagine senators or congressmen going for pro consumer regulation that could benefit consumers at the expense of corporate profits.
 

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Lately, I do find myself more and more in favor of civil disobedience and illegal action as protest. Not as in violence against people, but as in destruction of property, blockade or ignoring unjust laws.

I think in a world where laws are used against society, society has no choice but to ignore some laws to fight back. THis has limits of course, but a singular action like heavy blockade of a forest that is to be burned down seems rational to me.
 

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Lately, I do find myself more and more in favor of civil disobedience and illegal action as protest. Not as in violence against people, but as in destruction of property, blockade or ignoring unjust laws.

I think in a world where laws are used against society, society has no choice but to ignore some laws to fight back. THis has limits of course, but a singular action like heavy blockade of a forest that is to be burned down seems rational to me.




Like this?
 

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Like this?
I am not someone who says these things likely. I am usually in favor of obeying laws even if they are kinda stupid (but to push to change them) because it is importance to have clarity.
But especially in the US, the laws are perverted and unjust by now, so much that i cannot fault someone who uses public disobedience to protest them.

PRotesting in front of supreme court judges after they steal your rights cannot be unjust in my opinion, even if it is formally illegal. America is a country in which some aggression, even deadly, is legal (for example aggression from policemen, no matter how much they fuck up), but some nonviolent protest or unthreatening action is illegal. As long as that is true, the law helps the oppressors.
 

xi0

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Of course they aren't equal. But beyond that, both views amount to both sides seeing themselves as the good guys who are fighting abject evil and there no acknowledgement whatsoever of what the other side is saying.
Well, I think one side is about being subjected to oppression from the government that's deep-seeded in societal issues that have existed forever. Being against that is about as righteous as you can be IMO, and there's no reason to acknowledge the other side's gripes. They're not starting from the same place at all.
 
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