American Politics

[ninjabot]

But how right wing are they?
It's a shame because a lot of gun owners are reasonable.

I guess right-wing wouldn't be the name for them. And the name conservative has become a dogwhistle for conspiracy theorist nutjobs. So I dunno what to call em other than... I guess center-right?

Also:

https://i.redd.it/e7lzawwb00wa1.jpg

I fucking hate NC. This has to be the third time I've said this in this thread, but I super mean it. I gotta get outta here.

 

[xi0]

I guess right-wing wouldn't be the name for them. And the name conservative has become a dogwhistle for conspiracy theorist nutjobs. So I dunno what to call em other than... I guess center-right?

Also:

https://i.redd.it/e7lzawwb00wa1.jpg

I fucking hate NC. This has to be the third time I've said this in this thread, but I super mean it. I gotta get outta here.

The reparations topic is always so funny to me. I think an old Christopher Hitchens debate summed it up perfectly -

Was a wrong committed to a specific group of people for a specific reason?
Yes

Could it be ameliorated by some form of reparations?
Yes

The crux of his thesis was "don't make great the enemy of good". People like to complicate the actual question regarding it, and act like the potential solution being complicated somehow makes the question complicated. It's not.

I doubt anyone fervently arguing against them have the same energy towards Indigenous people, or reparations for asian americans that were placed in internment camps. I wonder why that is?

------------------

As an aside though, I love NC. My favorite place to vacation.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 25, 2023, Original Post Date: Apr 25, 2023 ---

Well, that's not great

 

[kkck]

Welp, time for democrats to go with their tried and true campaign strategy of "At least I'm not Trump". Can't you guys just have a gentleman's agreement of not having people older than 72 for first presidential terms? People can absolutely be productive past 72 but biden will be about 85 by the end of a hypothetical second term.

 

[ninjabot]

Welp, time for democrats to go with their tried and true campaign strategy of "At least I'm not Trump". Can't you guys just have a gentleman's agreement of not having people older than 72 for first presidential terms? People can absolutely be productive past 72 but biden will be about 85 by the end of a hypothetical second term.

The left would be fine with that. I can't imagine the right would though, because when you think of conservatism and "preserving traditional values", that's some old people shit.

As an aside though, I love NC. My favorite place to vacation.

I guess it's a great place to stay if you're not considering politics... and the Outer Banks are pretty lit. Meh.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 26, 2023, Original Post Date: Apr 26, 2023 ---

But how right wing are they?
It's a shame because a lot of gun owners are reasonable.

Not that right wing I guess. Just... single issue voters who's single issues align with conservatism.

 

[xi0]

I guess it's a great place to stay if you're not considering politics... and the Outer Banks are pretty lit. Meh.

Yeah it's great, looking for a place this labor day as I speak.

For some reason here in MD you can't get beer/wine at the grocery store, but in NC hard liquor is strictly regulated by the government. Always funny what kind of regulation conservatives are okay with.

 

[M3J]

I guess right-wing wouldn't be the name for them. And the name conservative has become a dogwhistle for conspiracy theorist nutjobs. So I dunno what to call em other than... I guess center-right?

Also:

https://i.redd.it/e7lzawwb00wa1.jpg

I fucking hate NC. This has to be the third time I've said this in this thread, but I super mean it. I gotta get outta here.

Really? I've never noticed people call conspiracy theorists conservatives.

True reparation for Black people would be astronomical, considering how much damage white people have done to the Black communities. True history of USA is full of violence and racism, like Tulsa, OK massacre. I really wish the country was serious about reparations, but then again white people have done what they could do keep Black Americans down.

 

[xi0]

True reparation for Black people would be astronomical

This isn't where the conversation needs to start though. They wouldn't need to be astronomical for it to be something that should be done.

In 1989 the US Government paid out 1.6 billion (3.5 billion in 2019 dollars) to 82,000 Americans who were in internment camps during WWII. That's around 20k per person.

It's estimated that there were roughly 10 million black slaves between 1619 and 1865. Unsure how many people living today would be descendants of those slaves. Some estimate that 57% of the black population can trace their roots back to enslaved people.

Unsure what the starting point would be. Is money payouts the best option? etc

 

[kkck]

The left would be fine with that. I can't imagine the right would though, because when you think of conservatism and "preserving traditional values", that's some old people shit.

So you say but if you look at the past candidates with any real chance at winning you'd think democrats are grave robbers.

 

[M3J]

This isn't where the conversation needs to start though. They wouldn't need to be astronomical for it to be something that should be done.

In 1989 the US Government paid out 1.6 billion (3.5 billion in 2019 dollars) to 82,000 Americans who were in internment camps during WWII. That's around 20k per person.

It's estimated that there were roughly 10 million black slaves between 1619 and 1865. Unsure how many people living today would be descendants of those slaves. Some estimate that 57% of the black population can trace their roots back to enslaved people.

Unsure what the starting point would be. Is money payouts the best option? etc

What I'm saying though is that reparation should include giving Black Americans better housing, at least 100K per person/family, and so much more. There's been so much damage done.

 

[ninjabot]

Yeah it's great, looking for a place this labor day as I speak.

For some reason here in MD you can't get beer/wine at the grocery store, but in NC hard liquor is strictly regulated by the government. Always funny what kind of regulation conservatives are okay with.

Yeah, you can get your booze anywhere, but it can't be bought on Sundays. Every ABC store is closed on Sunday too.

So you say but if you look at the past candidates with any real chance at winning you'd think democrats are grave robbers.

I agree, but I'm sure it's for separate reasons. Electability, not adherence to traditional values.

Really? I've never noticed people call conspiracy theorists conservatives.

I know Republicans that correct people that call them conservatives just to not be considered someone affiliated with MAGA.

 

[xi0]

What I'm saying though is that reparation should include giving Black Americans better housing, at least 100K per person/family, and so much more. There's been so much damage done.

Housing shouldn't be attached to reparations for slavery IMO, it should be a right to all citizens. The monetary value... not sure how you measure it. My point in my response to you is that it should still be done regardless of what people feel about the amount, or the argument existing that you can't possibly put a price on the damage done so why even bother.

Yeah, you can get your booze anywhere, but it can't be bought on Sundays. Every ABC store is closed on Sunday too.

It's the same here in my county, closed on Sunday unless you serve it. But it's "worse" because like I said, you can only get alcohol of any kind at liquor stores, not grocery stores. There's some places that were grandfathered in from the law changing at some point. Pretty dumb to restrict it at all IMO.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 27, 2023, Original Post Date: Apr 27, 2023 ---

I know Republicans that correct people that call them conservatives just to not be considered someone affiliated with MAGA.

That's pretty pathetic... lol

 

[M3J]

Housing shouldn't be attached to reparations for slavery IMO, it should be a right to all citizens. The monetary value... not sure how you measure it. My point in my response to you is that it should still be done regardless of what people feel about the amount, or the argument existing that you can't possibly put a price on the damage done so why even bother.



It's the same here in my county, closed on Sunday unless you serve it. But it's "worse" because like I said, you can only get alcohol of any kind at liquor stores, not grocery stores. There's some places that were grandfathered in from the law changing at some point. Pretty dumb to restrict it at all IMO.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 27, 2023, Original Post Date: Apr 27, 2023 ---

That's pretty pathetic... lol

Housing is one of the many reparations that should be done for the racism Black people have faced. How many of them were denied housing in better neighborhoods or were forced to sell their houses well under the market? I'm not sure how to measure the monetary value, tbh, but I do think Black people deserve a high amount because of what they've gone through. If nothing else, more opportunities without worrying about finance or other things.

 

[kkck]

I don't see how you can put a monetary value on something that happened 150 years ago... barring a few weird cases it's some 4-5 generations removed from anyone alive today. I mean, what's the math here? Even if you go to segregation, which is more relevant to people alive today, how would you go about the math here? Who would pay this? Descendants of slave owners? The government? I don't see how anything can ever hope to be more than symbolic, there's no reasonable way to put a number on things here. Can you walk up to people, give them 20000 (or whichever amount) dollars and declare the plurality of slave descendants properly compensated and the subject matter terminated?

Add to that, US housing issues are part of a more systemic issue of crappy policies. If the US had anything like working policies then it'd be absurd to even suggest this as reparations...

 

[xi0]

Housing is one of the many reparations that should be done for the racism Black people have faced. How many of them were denied housing in better neighborhoods or were forced to sell their houses well under the market? I'm not sure how to measure the monetary value, tbh, but I do think Black people deserve a high amount because of what they've gone through. If nothing else, more opportunities without worrying about finance or other things.

You're not getting my point. We shouldn't need to push for housing for anyone.

Plus, when talking about this topic it's difficult to get too heavily involved in solutions that are too complicated logistically. This is part of the reason why most people push for a sum of money over anything else.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 27, 2023, Original Post Date: Apr 27, 2023 ---

I don't see how you can put a monetary value on something that happened 150 years ago... barring a few weird cases it's some 4-5 generations removed from anyone alive today. I mean, what's the math here? Even if you go to segregation, which is more relevant to people alive today, how would you go about the math here? Who would pay this? Descendants of slave owners? The government? I don't see how anything can ever hope to be more than symbolic, there's no reasonable way to put a number on things here. Can you walk up to people, give them 20000 (or whichever amount) dollars and declare the plurality of slave descendants properly compensated and the subject matter terminated?

Yeah, it would involve proven genealogy that says someone is a descendant of a slave.

Regardless of what is considered appropriate recompense for slavery, anything that would be offered would be called "symbolic", that doesn't mean it would have no use to people.



These 10 minutes sums this debate up pretty concisely and plainly IMO.

 

[M3J]

I don't see how you can put a monetary value on something that happened 150 years ago... barring a few weird cases it's some 4-5 generations removed from anyone alive today. I mean, what's the math here? Even if you go to segregation, which is more relevant to people alive today, how would you go about the math here? Who would pay this? Descendants of slave owners? The government? I don't see how anything can ever hope to be more than symbolic, there's no reasonable way to put a number on things here. Can you walk up to people, give them 20000 (or whichever amount) dollars and declare the plurality of slave descendants properly compensated and the subject matter terminated?

Add to that, US housing issues are part of a more systemic issue of crappy policies. If the US had anything like working policies then it'd be absurd to even suggest this as reparations...

I didn't mention slavery, I said Black Americans due to the history of racism towards Black people. As per few posts ago, Tulsa, OK massacre, for one, when Black people were doing well. Why does it matter if it's symbolic or not?

Yes, but for Black people specifically, huge part of housing issue comes from racism. They weren't allowed to move to certain communities and if they did, they'd be bullied and chased out by white people while likely underselling their house, and etc. There's also the wage gap where Black people have been paid less.

You're not getting my point. We shouldn't need to push for housing for anyone.

Plus, when talking about this topic it's difficult to get too heavily involved in solutions that are too complicated logistically. This is part of the reason why most people push for a sum of money over anything else.

I still disagree, even though I do think everyone deserves a good, safe housing, one way or the other.

I think we need more than just money though.

 

[xi0]

I think we need more than just money though.

We need?

 

[kkck]

Yeah, it would involve proven genealogy that says someone is a descendant of a slave.

Regardless of what is considered appropriate recompense for slavery, anything that would be offered would be called "symbolic", that doesn't mean it would have no use to people.

Sure, if you get them x0000.00 dollars they will very likely have use for it. My issue here is how this would be implemented and what exactly the goal would be and what is supposed to happen once people get their reparation. Do people just move on after being given reparations? Or do people get reparations but this remains as big an stigma on people as ever?

As you mention, housing shouldn't be part of reparations but going a bit further things that should be part of the social safety net shouldn't be considered reparations. Which to me begs the question, would reparations be necessary if the US had functional housing, education and healthcare policy?

 

[M3J]

We need?

Yeah, I think Black people deserve to have better lives

 

[xi0]

Yeah, I think Black people deserve to have better lives

The way you worded it made it sound like you included yourself among Black people, and we both know you aren't lol

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 28, 2023, Original Post Date: Apr 28, 2023 ---

Sure, if you get them x0000.00 dollars they will very likely have use for it. My issue here is how this would be implemented and what exactly the goal would be and what is supposed to happen once people get their reparation. Do people just move on after being given reparations? Or do people get reparations but this remains as big an stigma on people as ever?

As you mention, housing shouldn't be part of reparations but going a bit further things that should be part of the social safety net shouldn't be considered reparations. Which to me begs the question, would reparations be necessary if the US had functional housing, education and healthcare policy?

The money doesn't undo the history of violent racism in this country. How recipients would feel about it is up to them. The money would be paid out because this is how damages are settled in any other matter. I guess to put it another way - reparations don't and shouldn't exist to address those questions really. This country was built upon labor that black people were not fairly compensated for. Like Hitchens said, there's bricks in DC buildings laid there by slaves.

It's an interesting question, but I would say reparations are still deserved, yeah. The US having proper social safety nets for all citizens doesn't undo slavery. But from a pragmatic standpoint, it probably wouldn't be thought about in the same way if the material conditions of the average black person were better.

 

[M3J]

The way you worded it made it sound like you included yourself among Black people, and we both know you aren't lol

Nah, I just feel too strongly about wanting to see Black people finally thrive instead of having to deal with racism every single day. the more I learn about the actual history, the more disturbed I get at knowing how non-white people have been treated.