American Politics

[Heero Yuy]

For which Egypt has a hand in as well.
And in any case it is not what defines a concentration camp.

It is a completely uneducated take that inherently delegitimates any opinion and immediately brandmarks it as closed off Nazi propaganda. That's how it appears to people taught to identify such in schools and public media.

If you Americans haven't learned about the sensitivity of the topic, you have to NOW.
I find it more than scary what people reveal here about themselves.



It is also not that. Do you know what the people who live there call it? Home...

Laughing my ass off so hard right now, you are so ignorant and don't know shit to where you got nothing to say in response to an ACTUAL HUMAN BEING born from Holocaust survivors and his parents telling him and his siblings that what Gaza is, is a bloody concentration camp and what home the land that Israel stole, Gaza is not a home, it is a strip of a tiny piece of land where 2.2 million Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Atheists Palestinians are forced into. Really fucking class of you that you cant even acknowledge and accept your wrong on many accounts but thats what Israel supporters are they are all antisemitism, Islamophobic, Zionist screaming lovers.

Oh and before you bloody speak go look at statements from people who fled Gaza even before Hamas, and they will fucking say its not a home, its fucking hell.

 

[M3J]

Then that speaks miles for what people you've been occupying yourself with. What you are saying is criminal in Germany.
And any idea that the Gaza strip is a "concentration camp" is completely bananas.



Those are called Gulags.

There is a reason why certain terms are used in the way they are, that I already thoroughly explained. The way you argue and answer is 100% in line with common tactics and rhetorics used by Neonazis.



What? Now what has that to do with anything.

This is annoying. Gaza strip is a concentration camp, and that's a fact. It fits the definition of a concentration camp, regardless of what you want. Again, give me proof, otherwise I'm not going to keep responding.

Yeah, because Russians don't speak English. Do you know what Gulag stands for? Still a concentration camp.

I'm gonna ignore that stupid Neonazi line.


Were you not the one questioning why Hamas/Palestinians had support from some of us who defended LGBT+ characters in One Piece?

The concentration camp label is due to Palestinians not being able to leave and return. But it's use in this case is probably a conflation of it and internment camps.

Concentration camp is more accurate, especially with Israel deliberately committing genocide.

These motherfuckers killed Roe v. Wade without even having the presidency and that's not indication that things would be worse if they had the white house?

Also, broken promises aren't necessarily broken if you have a cadre of people trying their best to make you fail at keeping your promises. Intent matters.

Which could have been prevented if Dems codified it when they were in power, multiple times. Not to mention, they weren't able to do that during Trump's presidency? But this doesn't help your case when Roe v. Wade was killed under Biden's presidency. Given that Trump passed executive orders to get things done, why couldn't Biden do the same?

They didn't fight hard enough.

That's why the only possible answer is a 2 state solution where neither Israel nor Palestine are the determining authority there, along with the purging of Hamas from the planet. You can't trust either side to not pursue the most heinous acts of violence against each other, and Hamas are terrorists. Yes the IDF has done fucked up shit, but they're not Hamas, and have the benefit of social and optics protections Hamas will never, ever have thanks to not being Muslim. It's not a fair fight. It's super not. And it won't be. America isn't gonna have a crisis of faith and "switch sides" all of a sudden either.

Is it though? Not possible with how the West is pro-Israel, and how despite Palestinians taking in Jewish refugees, those same refugees kicked them out and stole their homes and lands.

Palestine would not pursue acts of violence, and even if they did, what do you expect from a group of people who saw their homes stolen and their family members murdered before their eyes? Hamas was literally created because of Israel's violence toward Palestine, something Israel itself has implied.

IDF has done infinitely far worse fucked up shit than Hamas, and they will continue to get away with it primarily because Israel serves in the interest of the West.

Sure. It sucks. But I'm more concerned with what's best in the long run rather than what's fair or not right now.

Are you though? You don't see anything suspicious about USA censoring any and everything negative about Israel? the last time they censored anything negative, as far as I recall, was during WWI or WWII for "morale" reasons. How is making it obvious there's no freedom of speech the best thing in the long run?

Then what is? And what does Israel lying have to do with it? I have said multiple times they can't be trusted. The UN can stop wars and pursue diplomacy, and as far as I know it isn't limited to nations that are apart of the UN. Why can't the UN step in and break things up? Why shouldn't they?

UN doesn't want to because it both doesn't care about Palestinians AND because Israel serves in their interest. It really boils down to this: Israel gets support from most nations because of what it does for them, whatever it is.

So remove the scapegoat. They're not protecting anyone anyway, and they won't need civilian human shields if they're all dead.

How do you know they're not protecting anyone? Or that they use human shields? Israel is full of shit, and so are most Western media sources. Even CNN I believe admitted they don't release their stories without Israel's approval first.

 

[xi0]

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 15, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 15, 2023 ---

For which Egypt has a hand in as well.
And in any case it is not what defines a concentration camp.

It is a completely uneducated take that inherently delegitimates any opinion and immediately brandmarks it as closed off Nazi propaganda. That's how it appears to people taught to identify such in schools and public media.

If you Americans haven't learned about the sensitivity of the topic, you have to NOW.
I find it more than scary what people reveal here about themselves.



It is also not that. Do you know what the people who live there call it? Home...

Egypt is involved because it's on their border. That's kind of a half-hearted attempt to shift blame.

I think your righteous indignation reveals quite a lot as well. There is reaction to antisemitism and there is reaction to hyperbole.

Where did I say it wasn't home to people? Isn't that the entire debate being had?? If someone blockades your house, puts fences around it, and doesn't allow free passage in and out it is still your house.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 15, 2023 ---

Concentration camp is more accurate, especially with Israel deliberately committing genocide.

I get the reasons and intention but I don't think it is, and because people use the term literally it gives people an excuse to crybully.

 

[Heero Yuy]

> Isreali spokeperson for the Government effectively calling the Red Cross "Hamas" supporters, just like the UN, WHO, Doctors without Borders, Holocaust historians, anyone WHO LITERALLY SIDES WITH PALESTINIANS are being labelled by Israel as "Hamas" supporters.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 15, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 15, 2023 ---

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 15, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 15, 2023 ---

Egypt is involved because it's on their border. That's kind of a half-hearted attempt to shift blame.

I think your righteous indignation reveals quite a lot as well. There is reaction to antisemitism and there is reaction to hyperbole.

Where did I say it wasn't home to people? Isn't that the entire debate being had?? If someone blockades your house, puts fences around it, and doesn't allow free passage in and out it is still your house.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 15, 2023 ---

I get the reasons and intention but I don't think it is, and because people use the term literally it gives people an excuse to crybully.

Really how is it that Holocaust historians, people born from Holocaust survivors are here openly calling, Gaza a concentration camp BUT here you are saying people will use it literally to cry bully, sounds like you're the one who fails to remotely connect the two, and I'm repeatedly will say it over and over and over, how the SO CALLED JEWS IN ISRAEL ARE BEING CALLED OUT AND CONDEMNED BY JEWS around the world, calling them bloody Zionists all the while the SO CALLED JEWS IN ISRAEL ARE CRYING AND BITCHING THAT THE PEOPLE CALLING THEM OUT FOR WHAT THEY ARE antisemitic

 

[M3J]

I get the reasons and intention but I don't think it is, and because people use the term literally it gives people an excuse to crybully.

I don't understand how it's not a concentration camp or even a death camp when the intention is to group the Palestinians together into one area and then commit genocide. Even when they're told they can leave, Israel attacks their route and kills them. The fact that they're even going after hospitals says it all.

 

[ninjabot]

Which could have been prevented if Dems codified it when they were in power, multiple times. Not to mention, they weren't able to do that during Trump's presidency? But this doesn't help your case when Roe v. Wade was killed under Biden's presidency. Given that Trump passed executive orders to get things done, why couldn't Biden do the same?

They didn't fight hard enough.

It only hurts my case if you think Republicans would not have done worse were they in office. That's always been my case: that people are downplaying how bad conservatives are to justify throwing away democracy as a protest to a war they can't stop.

Is it though?

Yes. And if you don't think so I'd love to know your idea of a practical, realistic choice.

Not possible with how the West is pro-Israel, and how despite Palestinians taking in Jewish refugees, those same refugees kicked them out and stole their homes and lands.

Yes, this is one of my points. Palestine doesn't have any of the benefits Israel has, including and especially American political interests. It has no cards to play. It has no hope. It has no choice.

Palestine would not pursue acts of violence,

Hamas would without a doubt 1000 percent pursue acts of violence. And the world stage will view that as Palestine itself pursuing acts of violence.

and even if they did, what do you expect from a group of people who saw their homes stolen and their family members murdered before their eyes? Hamas was literally created because of Israel's violence toward Palestine, something Israel itself has implied.

I expect them all to die, if they keep fighting. That's what I expect. I can't stress enough how unfair I understand it to be. No one here is saying Israel are the good guys. I'm telling you the reality of the situation is that there is no path to a ceasefire that includes the survival of Hamas, and radical lefties are gassing these people up to commit suicide.

IDF has done infinitely far worse fucked up shit than Hamas, and they will continue to get away with it primarily because Israel serves in the interest of the West.

Yeah.

Are you though? You don't see anything suspicious about USA censoring any and everything negative about Israel? the last time they censored anything negative, as far as I recall, was during WWI or WWII for "morale" reasons. How is making it obvious there's no freedom of speech the best thing in the long run?

Yes, I am. And that's not what I said is the correct action in the long run, I was defending the 2 state solution. Not hiding information and promoting propaganda.

UN doesn't want to because it both doesn't care about Palestinians AND because Israel serves in their interest. It really boils down to this: Israel gets support from most nations because of what it does for them, whatever it is.

The UN proposed the 2 state solution in the first place.

How do you know they're not protecting anyone? Or that they use human shields? Israel is full of shit, and so are most Western media sources. Even CNN I believe admitted they don't release their stories without Israel's approval first.

Because they can't. They don't have an Iron Dome. They don't have bomb shelters (which should tell you something btw. The idea that instead of building bomb shelters for their civilians, they build tunnels to store weaponry and supplies to continue fighting. That shows mistaken priorities).


They live amongst civilians knowing full well they're targeted for annihilation.

Oh, and Hamas arresting Palestinian protesters asking for peace? That's not a good look.

 

[Heero Yuy]

It only hurts my case if you think Republicans would not have done worse were they in office. That's always been my case: that people are downplaying how bad conservatives are to justify throwing away democracy as a protest to a war they can't stop.



Yes. And if you don't think so I'd love to know your idea of a practical, realistic choice.



Yes, this is one of my points. Palestine doesn't have any of the benefits Israel has, including and especially American political interests. It has no cards to play. It has no hope. It has no choice.



Hamas would without a doubt 1000 percent pursue acts of violence. And the world stage will view that as Palestine itself pursuing acts of violence.



I expect them all to die, if they keep fighting. That's what I expect. I can't stress enough how unfair I understand it to be. No one here is saying Israel are the good guys. I'm telling you the reality of the situation is that there is no path to a ceasefire that includes the survival of Hamas, and radical lefties are gassing these people up to commit suicide.



Yeah.



Yes, I am. And that's not what I said is the correct action in the long run, I was defending the 2 state solution. Not hiding information and promoting propaganda.



The UN proposed the 2 state solution in the first place.




Because they can't. They don't have an Iron Dome. They don't have bomb shelters (which should tell you something btw. The idea that instead of building bomb shelters for their civilians, they build tunnels to store weaponry and supplies to continue fighting. That shows mistaken priorities).


They live amongst civilians knowing full well they're targeted for annihilation.

Oh, and Hamas arresting Palestinian protesters asking for peace? That's not a good look.

> Get out of with your Pro-Israel narratives like holy fuck, its actually so cringe you and McBuss literally ignore the multiply links that I've given that legit shows how much of a lying sack of shit Israelis, the IDF are, the stories coming from people who once lived in Gaza, the Jews around the world calling these so called Israeli Jews for what the bloody are, a bunch of zionist parading "Jews" screaming that they're being targeted and crying antisemitism, you have yet to even bloody even fucking admit to the fact, Hamas was CREATED DUE TO ISRAEL'S ACTIONS, 75+ YEARS AND YOU ACTUALLY FUCKING THINK THAT HUMANS WOULD JUST LAY DOWN AND ACCEPT THAT ITS THEIR FATE TO HAVE GENERATIONS UPON GENERATIONS GONE FROM HISTORY, you HAVE YET TO PROVIDE ANY IRREFUTABLY CLAIMS THAT THE PERSON, Norman Finkelstein a man WHO WAS BORN FROM TWO HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS whose parents openly called Gaza, a concentration camp BACK BY NOT ONE BUT MULTIPLY HOLOCAUST HISTORIANS calling Israel, the modern day versions of Nazis but go off dude, keep showing your bloody ass real side where you ride whatever the IDF, Israel, and any Isreal backed Media just like those fucktards of Vice Media.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us-pu...rity-backs-ceasefire-reutersipsos-2023-11-15/ > The whole wide world is watching and calling for Israel to be gone, return the god damn land that they fucking stole from Paletinians, oh and before you even keep talking shit, The UN offered a 2 state solution that they did not consolate the natives of the land and Isreal being a Zonist Regime Apartheid State in it's very charters of Zionism refuses the idea of a 2 state solution cuz no Zioist Israelis which is a vast majority of its "state" does not see Palestinians as humans, they all view them as barbaric animals, it doesnt matter if its a Palestinian muslim, Jew, Christian its all animals to them just like HOW ORTHODOX AND EVEN LIBERAL JEW AROUND THE THE GOD DAMN GLOBE CALL ISREAL OUT FOR BEING A ZIONIST STATE, NOT REAL FUCKING JEWS CUZ ANYONE WHO EVEN READS THE TORAH OR EVEN KNOWS ABOUT JUDAISM KNOWS THAT THERE'S NO SUCH BULLSHIT CLAIM TO A "HOLY LAND".

 

[xi0]

Really how is it that Holocaust historians, people born from Holocaust survivors are here openly calling, Gaza a concentration camp BUT here you are saying people will use it literally to cry bully, sounds like you're the one who fails to remotely connect the two, and I'm repeatedly will say it over and over and over, how the SO CALLED JEWS IN ISRAEL ARE BEING CALLED OUT AND CONDEMNED BY JEWS around the world, calling them bloody Zionists all the while the SO CALLED JEWS IN ISRAEL ARE CRYING AND BITCHING THAT THE PEOPLE CALLING THEM OUT FOR WHAT THEY ARE antisemitic

I'm not failing to connect the two, I understand why people use the term, I just don't think it really matches. It's an argument over semantics, I'm not denying genocide or anything of the sort, so you're wasting your energy.

Also, you need to learn how to communicate your point a bit better, most of what you've written here has nothing to do with what I've said.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 15, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 15, 2023 ---

I don't understand how it's not a concentration camp or even a death camp when the intention is to group the Palestinians together into one area and then commit genocide. Even when they're told they can leave, Israel attacks their route and kills them. The fact that they're even going after hospitals says it all.

Gazans are there because they want to be there, not all are displaced from other parts of Israel. (Granted, if they are, they shouldn't be, let's just establish that in the first place).

The issue stems from how Israel essentially lords over the territory. It's not a camp where people are detained without charges or forced to work etc. So using concentration camp in the literal sense is off base IMO. But again, I don't really care too much about this debate since it has no bearing on the suffering going on there.

 

[ninjabot]

Israeli military shows video of arms it says were found at Al Shifa hospital

Israeli troops found Hamas weapons and combat gear in Al Shifa hospital in the Gaza Strip during a search on Wednesday, chief Israeli military spokesperson Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari said.

www.reuters.com

For the record, when I say "human shields", I don't mean this:


I mean generally using areas that civilians can't leave as their place of operations, knowing that it will become a target.

This is how much Hamas values Palestinian life.

 

[xi0]

Israeli military shows video of arms it says were found at Al Shifa hospital

Israeli troops found Hamas weapons and combat gear in Al Shifa hospital in the Gaza Strip during a search on Wednesday, chief Israeli military spokesperson Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari said.

www.reuters.com

For the record, when I say "human shields", I don't mean this:


I mean generally using areas that civilians can't leave as their place of operations, knowing that it will become a target.

This is how much Hamas values Palestinian life.

Even if we decide that the IDF isn't lying about this, what does it actually change? I wouldn't say it justifies bombing a hospital where 99% of the people there have no say.

 

[McNuss]

This is annoying. Gaza strip is a concentration camp, and that's a fact. It fits the definition of a concentration camp, regardless of what you want. Again, give me proof, otherwise I'm not going to keep responding.

I already gave you enough proof that you profoundly keep ignoring to repeat your statement. A concentration camp was never anyone's self-governed home.

Gaza is a prison due to the Israeli occupation of Palestine.

I'm gonna ignore that stupid Neonazi line.

You shouldn't, because I still think you've accidentally fallen for a trap. But the way you argue is in line with how Neonazis argue, and I got taught this stuff in school, there's tons of newspaper articles around it - in german so I don't see the point of posting them here.

My entire countries existence depended on "never again", and I also don't want this ever again.

Were you not the one questioning why Hamas/Palestinians had support from some of us who defended LGBT+ characters in One Piece?

Pretty sure I did not. I would also not conflate the Palestinians with the Hamas.

Where did I say it wasn't home to people? Isn't that the entire debate being had?? If someone blockades your house, puts fences around it, and doesn't allow free passage in and out it is still your house.

Yeah, its your house and not a concentration camp, that alone imho makes it pretty clear.

I think your righteous indignation reveals quite a lot as well. There is reaction to antisemitism and there is reaction to hyperbole.

All of what I have argued against is criminal in Germany and would cause an huge scandal when said by a public figure. What has been said is every single line crossed, hence my reaction, which is fairly certainly not oversensitive considering the actual climate of discussion in Germany, where daily newspapers have polls like : "QUOTE: Gretha Thunberg: There is no climate justice in occupied land", Poll: "Should politics forbid demonstrations where antisemitic content is said?". I am not the one overly sensitive.

There is a huge backlash from the climate created in online circles that is only worsening the situation. It also essentially leads to scenarios where someone like Baerbock can only repeat what Blinken is saying rather than saying what Macron is saying and vouch for a ceasefire.

Egypt is involved because it's on their border. That's kind of a half-hearted attempt to shift blame.

No, actually that is very important to consider when going for a thorough analysis of the whole situation; all of the muslim "friends" of the Palestinians aren't that honest either, all have their own political agenda that typically does not align with each others at all, and all have been using the Palestianians as leverage in their political shenaningans for far too long. This is a very complex political situation where a lot of parties are to blame

 

[Heero Yuy]

I'm not failing to connect the two, I understand why people use the term, I just don't think it really matches. It's an argument over semantics, I'm not denying genocide or anything of the sort, so you're wasting your energy.

Also, you need to learn how to communicate your point a bit better, most of what you've written here has nothing to do with what I've said.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 15, 2023, Original Post Date: Nov 15, 2023 ---

Gazans are there because they want to be there, not all are displaced from other parts of Israel. (Granted, if they are, they shouldn't be, let's just establish that in the first place).

The issue stems from how Israel essentially lords over the territory. It's not a camp where people are detained without charges or forced to work etc. So using concentration camp in the literal sense is off base IMO. But again, I don't really care too much about this debate since it has no bearing on the suffering going on there.

Your last point is sooo fucking wrong dude like you do realize that 2.2 millions of Palestinians didnt magically flock to Gaza which has been proven by numerous people who study geography and shit saying that tiny strip of land can not hold 2.2+ millions of people. Also once more you ignore that there's so many videos of Palestinians legit crying about how they are treated as animals, not able to participate in this so called "Democracy" and this debate has bearing to the on going suffering like how blind are you no legit you act as if all Palestinians care only for their a land, no its more then that its their land they were robbed of, the ability to be humans and have human rights that Israel has constantly denied for decades.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 16, 2023 ---

Israeli military shows video of arms it says were found at Al Shifa hospital

Israeli troops found Hamas weapons and combat gear in Al Shifa hospital in the Gaza Strip during a search on Wednesday, chief Israeli military spokesperson Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari said.

www.reuters.com

For the record, when I say "human shields", I don't mean this:


I mean generally using areas that civilians can't leave as their place of operations, knowing that it will become a target.

This is how much Hamas values Palestinian life.

By the way, that video which was uploaded by the official IDF account deleted that video cuz who the fuck puts metal weapons in a MRI room with a huge magnet, so try again you zionist loving apologist just like how you and McBuss are silent af when Norman Finkelstein WHO HAS proved Gaza is a concentration camp backed by multiply Holocaust historians can't even reply cuz you know its fucking true but nah stay defending Isreal who does not give two shits about hostages or a race and want to do what Nazis fucking wanted to do to Jews but to Palestinians of all kind, muslim, Jews, christians, athiests.

vs LMAO THIS IS WHY YOU DONT FUCKING TRUST THE LYING SACK OF SHITS OF WESTERN MEDIA AND IDF, THE IDF LITERALLY FUCKING KEEPS STAGING THIS SHIT, MCBUSS WANTS TO TALK ABOUT "HAMAS PROPAGANDA" LOOK AT HOW FUCKING DISGUSTING THE IDF IS GOING TO JUSTIFY THEIR GENOCIDE.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 16, 2023 ---

I already gave you enough proof that you profoundly keep ignoring to repeat your statement. A concentration camp was never anyone's self-governed home.

Gaza is a prison due to the Israeli occupation of Palestine.

You shouldn't, because I still think you've accidentally fallen for a trap. But the way you argue is in line with how Neonazis argue, and I got taught this stuff in school, there's tons of newspaper articles around it - in german so I don't see the point of posting them here.

My entire countries existence depended on "never again", and I also don't want this ever again.

Pretty sure I did not. I would also not conflate the Palestinians with the Hamas.


Yeah, its your house and not a concentration camp, that alone imho makes it pretty clear.


All of what I have argued against is criminal in Germany and would cause an huge scandal when said by a public figure. What has been said is every single line crossed, hence my reaction, which is fairly certainly not oversensitive considering the actual climate of discussion in Germany, where daily newspapers have polls like : "QUOTE: Gretha Thunberg: There is no climate justice in occupied land", Poll: "Should politics forbid demonstrations where antisemitic content is said?". I am not the one overly sensitive.

There is a huge backlash from the climate created in online circles that is only worsening the situation. It also essentially leads to scenarios where someone like Baerbock can only repeat what Blinken is saying rather than saying what Macron is saying and vouch for a ceasefire.

No, actually that is very important to consider when going for a thorough analysis of the whole situation; all of the muslim "friends" of the Palestinians aren't that honest either, all have their own political agenda that typically does not align with each others at all, and all have been using the Palestianians as leverage in their political shenaningans for far too long. This is a very complex political situation where a lot of parties are to blame

Still waiting for you to dispute Norman Finkelstein's background of being a raised by two Holocaust survivors who experienced what living in concentration camps where his parents have told him that Gaza is camp, I'm waiting come on buddy since you want to claim that non-Germans have no idea what a concentration camp looks like oh wait you cant because you are wrong and you know it just like how you ignore that there's multiply Jews around the world calling Israel out for weaponizing Judaism, and are Zionists parading around claiming their Jews and even the real Jews in Israel are in Jerusalem and the West bank are being beaten up to death, murdered even for even showing a slight plight to the 75+ years of injustice.

Oh also I don't care, I see two literal Zionist apologists in this thread and cant tell me otherwise their actions are exactly like everyone's else who even remotely defends Israel or even questions what Palestinians want.

 

[M3J]

It only hurts my case if you think Republicans would not have done worse were they in office. That's always been my case: that people are downplaying how bad conservatives are to justify throwing away democracy as a protest to a war they can't stop.

That's because under Dems we still have student loans, Roe v. Wade got done away with, and money that could be used to help people is being used to fund genocide against innocent people. Opposing the ceasefire AND giving Israel billions of dollars are just icing on the cake, final two nails in the coffin, and other metaphors that set the leftists off.

The only time I will vote for a republican though is if Clinton is running.

Yes. And if you don't think so I'd love to know your idea of a practical, realistic choice.

Give it back to the Palestinians.

Yes, this is one of my points. Palestine doesn't have any of the benefits Israel has, including and especially American political interests. It has no cards to play. It has no hope. It has no choice.

So what do you propose when Israel is hellbent on wiping out Palestinians?

Hamas would without a doubt 1000 percent pursue acts of violence. And the world stage will view that as Palestine itself pursuing acts of violence.



I expect them all to die, if they keep fighting. That's what I expect. I can't stress enough how unfair I understand it to be. No one here is saying Israel are the good guys. I'm telling you the reality of the situation is that there is no path to a ceasefire that includes the survival of Hamas, and radical lefties are gassing these people up to commit suicide.

What are you basing this on? Israel's lies? BEcause it seems like you're easily falling for their lies when Israeli hostages themselves have praised Hamas for taking care of them. I won't say Hamas would pursue acts of violence, but I would not blame them for doing so when Israel has been murdering Palestinians for over 70 years.

Hamas now is made up of people who suffered losses at the hands of Israel.

They're dying either way because Israel wants them to die. There's no path to ceasefire just because of this and because the West does not want to go against Israel. Israel has been committing war crime after war crime and still haven't been reprimanded.

You don't know the reality of the situation or understand how unfair it truly is. Majority of us here don't, and the only reason why I even have any sort of knowledge or understanding is because of the Palestinians themselves. If Israel let Palestine live in peace, no violence whatsoever, and even left, Hamas would cease to exist.

Yes, I am. And that's not what I said is the correct action in the long run, I was defending the 2 state solution. Not hiding information and promoting propaganda.

My point and question still stand.

The UN proposed the 2 state solution in the first place.




Because they can't. They don't have an Iron Dome. They don't have bomb shelters (which should tell you something btw. The idea that instead of building bomb shelters for their civilians, they build tunnels to store weaponry and supplies to continue fighting. That shows mistaken priorities).


They live amongst civilians knowing full well they're targeted for annihilation.

Oh, and Hamas arresting Palestinian protesters asking for peace? That's not a good look.

Which would have been unnecessary had the West not sent Zionists to Palestine in the first place and stayed silent during the first Nakba.

Those videos are over two years old, and likely not reliable. I'm not sure about tunnels now, but it's hard to build bomb shelters without proper equipment and when you're being constantly attacked.

That's an excuse Israel and its supporters have come up with to justify genocide. Living with civilians is not in any way justification for violence, or Hamas's fault. That's like bombing a school full of kids just because a shooter is in the building.

Those videos are OLD. And what about IOF arresting Jews who support Palestine? Getting violent? Zionist supporters telling Jews they wish Hitler wiped out their families?

Gazans are there because they want to be there, not all are displaced from other parts of Israel. (Granted, if they are, they shouldn't be, let's just establish that in the first place).

The issue stems from how Israel essentially lords over the territory. It's not a camp where people are detained without charges or forced to work etc. So using concentration camp in the literal sense is off base IMO. But again, I don't really care too much about this debate since it has no bearing on the suffering going on there.

They have no choice but to be there otherwise Israel will take their land, and where else can they go, especially when Israel keeps bombing them?

 

[xi0]

All of what I have argued against is criminal in Germany and would cause an huge scandal when said by a public figure. What has been said is every single line crossed, hence my reaction, which is fairly certainly not oversensitive considering the actual climate of discussion in Germany, where daily newspapers have polls like : "QUOTE: Gretha Thunberg: There is no climate justice in occupied land", Poll: "Should politics forbid demonstrations where antisemitic content is said?". I am not the one overly sensitive.

There is a huge backlash from the climate created in online circles that is only worsening the situation. It also essentially leads to scenarios where someone like Baerbock can only repeat what Blinken is saying rather than saying what Macron is saying and vouch for a ceasefire.

Why are we supposed to care about what's considered criminal in Germany? There could be endless debate regarding laws concerning that topic. I'll reiterate my point - comparisons or hyperbole aren't criminal or antisemitic, It does not minimize anything. I dare you to tell a Jewish person making comparisons that what they're doing is criminal and you know better than them because you're German.

I can't speak to the current environment, but it's speculated that Macron changed his tune after it became news that French nationals could be liable for prosecution before the ICC for committing, or aiding and abetting war crimes.

No, actually that is very important to consider when going for a thorough analysis of the whole situation; all of the muslim "friends" of the Palestinians aren't that honest either, all have their own political agenda that typically does not align with each others at all, and all have been using the Palestianians as leverage in their political shenaningans for far too long. This is a very complex political situation where a lot of parties are to blame

I'm aware of the varying attitudes among neighboring countries towards Palestinians. However, their muslim "friends" aren't the ones endlessly carpet bombing them. They also don't have control over Gaza's air and maritime space, nor control over 6 of the 7 land crossings. Israel does.

Your last point is sooo fucking wrong dude like you do realize that 2.2 millions of Palestinians didnt magically flock to Gaza which has been proven by numerous people who study geography and shit saying that tiny strip of land can not hold 2.2+ millions of people. Also once more you ignore that there's so many videos of Palestinians legit crying about how they are treated as animals, not able to participate in this so called "Democracy" and this debate has bearing to the on going suffering like how blind are you no legit you act as if all Palestinians care only for their a land, no its more then that its their land they were robbed of, the ability to be humans and have human rights that Israel has constantly denied for decades.

You need to actually read what people say and recognize intent, your rambling proselytizing is completely unnecessary and puts people off from interacting with you.

I'm not ignoring shit, I am Pro-Palestine. I am fully aware of the rights being denied Palestinians. Nor did I say anything remotely close to "Palestinians only care for their land". Stop putting words in my mouth. I PMed you before about how you've responded to my posts, being indignant over things that people DON'T say is a colossal waste of energy. Stop,

They have no choice but to be there otherwise Israel will take their land, and where else can they go, especially when Israel keeps bombing them?

I didn't imply that they needed to go anywhere, I'm saying the blockade and subsequent administration by the Israeli government is the issue. While horrible, I don't think that makes it a concentration camp. Cancer and HIV are both horrific diseases, that doesn't make them identical.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Why are we supposed to care about what's considered criminal in Germany? There could be endless debate regarding laws concerning that topic. I'll reiterate my point - comparisons or hyperbole aren't criminal or antisemitic, It does not minimize anything. I dare you to tell a Jewish person making comparisons that what they're doing is criminal and you know better than them because you're German.

I can't speak to the current environment, but it's speculated that Macron changed his tune after it became news that French nationals could be liable for prosecution before the ICC for committing, or aiding and abetting war crimes.



I'm aware of the varying attitudes among neighboring countries towards Palestinians. However, their muslim "friends" aren't the ones endlessly carpet bombing them. They also don't have control over Gaza's air and maritime space, nor control over 6 of the 7 land crossings. Israel does.



You need to actually read what people say and recognize intent, your rambling proselytizing is completely unnecessary and puts people off from interacting with you.

I'm not ignoring shit, I am Pro-Palestine. I am fully aware of the rights being denied Palestinians. Nor did I say anything remotely close to "Palestinians only care for their land". Stop putting words in my mouth. I PMed you before about how you've responded to my posts, being indignant over things that people DON'T say is a colossal waste of energy. Stop,



I didn't imply that they needed to go anywhere, I'm saying the blockade and subsequent administration by the Israeli government is the issue. While horrible, I don't think that makes it a concentration camp. Cancer and HIV are both horrific diseases, that doesn't make them identical.

This is exactly my point, here you are "I dont think that makes it a concentration camp", dude you are literally proving my point, numerous people come out with facts and evidence as to why it is a concentration camp and you are like ignoring that a children from Holocaust survivors, Holocaust historians are calling it a camp and what are you doing ignoring that people who spent their lives, come from survivors you are reducing their values by your very statement so dont tell me to stop, I will call out anyone who even remotely wants to deny evidence just like you here, just like Ninjabot spreading Israel lies just like McBuss who does not have the balls to ask Jews what they think cuz none of them can reply cuz they know they are wrong like its so crazy to me you are telling me to stop when you have literal bloody zionist apologists but I'm unhinged no bro, whose the one spreading lies, IDF, whose eating whatever the IDF is saying, whose trying to say not to compare Israel to Nazis that's McBuss when Jews around the world are calling Israel, modern day Nazis, whose here saying its I dont concentration camp, you are when that is bullshit logic when you have a peace activist backed by historians calling it a god damn concentration camp, I dont care if you ban me all I know is that you claim to be "Pro-Palestinian" when you literally just tried to say that Palestinians were in Gaza of their free will when that is so fucking false dude.

But go on and tell me to stop when you have literal zionist apologists on this site and yes they are zionist apologists, cuz go to twitter, go to youtube, go look at statements from zionists, Ninjabot and McBuss's actions are no different then the ones who want to say this is a naunced conflict when it bloody aint, dont tell me to calm down when I have to fucking learn my friend's cousins are fucking dead, so dont fucking tell me to stop I will only fucking stop when Israel stops their mass ethnic cleansing and genocide and when anyone remotely fucking defends their actions or tries to tell someone they dont know shit, I'm fucking done with this piece of shit site.

 

[ninjabot]

Even if we decide that the IDF isn't lying about this, what does it actually change? I wouldn't say it justifies bombing a hospital where 99% of the people there have no say.

First off, I don't think they're lying because it's been confirmed that Hamas builds their bases of operations in, on, or around civilian areas:

“The issue of military headquarters embedded in civilian populations posed a huge problem during the previous rounds of fire. We and other factions have initiated a gradual transfer operation with the aim of relocating a number of military headquarters from within the civilian population.

“We have managed to move many headquarters, but it is necessary to move many more. With God’s help we will continue this work,” he continued. “We are paying attention to this issue and are taking care to move a large portion of the headquarters, mainly from towers, residential buildings and other places. We have successfully replaced any of these places and, God willing, we will complete this task.”

• Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar, 2021

Hamas admits using civilians as human shields - All Arab News

Israel accuses Hamas of double war crimes for such fighting – firing at Israeli civilians from within civilian population centers

allarab.news

What is a human shield and how has Hamas been accused of using them?

Israel claims group has placed command centre under hospital and is deliberately shielding behind Palestinian civilians

www.theguardian.com

so it's not far-fetched to believe this particular hospital was one of many. As for what this information does, hopefully, it changes the opinions of people who believe Hamas are altruistic freedom fighters as opposed to terrorists willing to endanger the lives of civilians for the sake of strategic advantage.

Okay, maybe I'm being glib/hyperbolic. I don't think that you in particular think Hamas are altruistic freedom fighters. I do think that you think they're a net good though and I think they're a net negative, and this is a piece of evidence toward my stance. Unless you're going to argue Hamas provides food and housing for disenfranchised Palestinian refugees I don't know what you could say justifying their choices of HQ and where they build their tunnels. And I don't even know if that makes for a good justification because again: bomb shelters. Make those instead of rockets. And make them away from fucking civilian hospitals.

Am I saying anything unreasonable?

EDIT: Also, attacking civilian areas because your enemies there is not justified. In case it needed to be said.

That's because under Dems we still have student loans, Roe v. Wade got done away with, and money that could be used to help people is being used to fund genocide against innocent people. Opposing the ceasefire AND giving Israel billions of dollars are just icing on the cake, final two nails in the coffin, and other metaphors that set the leftists off.

The only time I will vote for a republican though is if Clinton is running.

Well there's nothing to argue about then, because that was my point the entire time: you're not helping a single Palestinian by helping Biden lose the election, which would help a Republican win the election, which will unapologetically push to obliterate Hamas.

Actually, now that I think about it it's sounding like I'm more pro-Republican considering I want Hamas to cease to exist. Ugh.

Give it back to the Palestinians.

This is practical and realistic to you? What about Israel's behavior in the past makes you think it's realistic that they would give Palestinians what they're asking for? What was taken from them?

So what do you propose when Israel is hellbent on wiping out Palestinians?

Taking control out of the hands of Israel via intervention from the UN. That's what I propose. Israel is not going to do the right thing here (which is giving it back to Palestine). So the next best thing is to move toward a 2 state solution. Israel for Israelis. Palestine for Palestinians. Both sides prevented from committing acts of war for... I dunno, a set period of time, while peace talks are mediated by an authority neither side can refuse.

What are you basing this on? Israel's lies? BEcause it seems like you're easily falling for their lies when Israeli hostages themselves have praised Hamas for taking care of them. I won't say Hamas would pursue acts of violence, but I would not blame them for doing so when Israel has been murdering Palestinians for over 70 years.

I'm basing it on Israel's behavior, as well as the behavior of any non-Palestinian politician who has spoken on this conflict since the 7th of last month. The only people coming out against Israel is the occasional Arab actor or athlete (or porn star in Mia Khalifa's case) along with a ton of radical lefties, while the people speaking in favor of Israel are MOST American news media, MOST American politicians whether they be Republican or Democrat, and MOST American citizens whether they be Republican or Democrat.

Hamas, internationally, are considered the bad guys. Sympathy for terrorists is slim. And I'm not falling for any Israeli lies, btw. The video I posted showing Hamas training grounds as well as an interview with a member of Hamas? Inside the tunnels? Admitting to placing them under civilian infrastructure because "they have no place else to go"?

If you're going to assert that this person, and all of the Hamas trainees are really Israeli actors pretending to be Hamas then... we just disagree on the way to determine whether something's real or not. Because you just said you learned from Palestinians how unfair things are, and I've learned from Palestinians how much Hamas doesn't give a shit about getting civilians killed. So which of us is right, considering we're both using Palestinians as our source?

As for Israeli hostages being taken care of by Hamas, you know hostages are taken care of because they're valuable tools right? I'd also argue that it shouldn't take 5 days to find all your hostages if you're taking "good care of them". How the hell are you taking care of them when you don't know where the hell they are?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/11/15/hamas-israel-gaza-hostage-deal/

Hamas now is made up of people who suffered losses at the hands of Israel.

That's why I'm reluctant to accept the idea that they'll just set their guns down to pursue talks of peace. In the video I posted there's a Palestinian woman talking about how she's glad that her son died a martyr. These people are fucking broken. Or are we gonna claim that she's lying?

They're dying either way because Israel wants them to die. There's no path to ceasefire just because of this and because the West does not want to go against Israel. Israel has been committing war crime after war crime and still haven't been reprimanded.

There is one path to a ceasefire, and that's outside interference from those with the means to place pressure on Israel. Hence my solution. If we leave it up to Israel, it'll never happen. That's why I said the idea of Israel giving back what was taken from Palestine is unrealistic. It's why I keep pushing for a 2 state solution. They need to be separated like two kids fighting in a high school, regardless of who threw the first punch. Specifics can be worried about after the bombs stop dropping.

You don't know the reality of the situation or understand how unfair it truly is. Majority of us here don't, and the only reason why I even have any sort of knowledge or understanding is because of the Palestinians themselves. If Israel let Palestine live in peace, no violence whatsoever, and even left, Hamas would cease to exist.

I respectfully disagree.

My point and question still stand.

No it doesn't. I've already condemned the unfair coverage that Israel is getting and the biased and sometimes flat-out wrong things stated. I'm not gonna keep doing it. Especially when it's brought up as a retort to a completely different statement I've made.

Which would have been unnecessary had the West not sent Zionists to Palestine in the first place and stayed silent during the first Nakba.

Those videos are over two years old, and likely not reliable. I'm not sure about tunnels now, but it's hard to build bomb shelters without proper equipment and when you're being constantly attacked.

This is incredibly dishonest. You think history has a shelf life? Like it stops being a factual even as long as enough time has passed?

If you wanna ignore things that actually happened because they happened in the past, that means I better not hear about 75 years of crimes committed against Palestinians again. And I take no accusations of faulty evidence or lies seriously if they are not backed up with corrections to said evidence or proof I'm posting lies, because it's too easy to pull a Qanon and just scream "Oh, you WOULD trust the media wouldn't you?"

And if you can build thousands of rockets and training facilities for literal children (as posted in the video), then you've got time and resources to build fucking bomb shelters.

That's an excuse Israel and its supporters have come up with to justify genocide. Living with civilians is not in any way justification for violence, or Hamas's fault. That's like bombing a school full of kids just because a shooter is in the building.

I agree partially. It's not justification for genocide. The IDF shouldn't be bombing civilian areas. But it IS Hamas' fault where they put their operations and where they launch attacks from. That is their choice, and thus their fault. They're not innocent. Can you agree that Hamas shouldn't be having bases in schools and hospitals putting children and injured civilians in danger knowingly?

Those videos are OLD. And what about IOF arresting Jews who support Palestine? Getting violent? Zionist supporters telling Jews they wish Hitler wiped out their families?

As stated above: why would you think I would care about how old historical acts are? I'm DELIBERATELY posting old sources because they show how long Hamas has been doing the heinous things they've been doing. And I denounce everything that you just said about Israel. We've been shitting on Sanity Check for YEARS because of whataboutisms, why would you think it'd help you here?

Look, the reason you can't appeal to moral/humane arguments with me concerning this conflict is that I've ALREADY bitten every bullet you think I'm not willing to.

I've condemned every Israeli act that you deem irredeemable and agree it's irredeemable
I agree that Israel is the oppressor/settler
I've acknowledged how this has started, what both sides want, with Israel wanting to genocide all the Palestinians and Palestine wanting to take back land
I've acknowledged the Israel bias in the media/news
I've acknowledged Israel's unjust murder of Palestinian civilians and judged it irredeemable
I've acknowledged that some statements and news articles defending Israel are lies

But you are incapable of denouncing the horrors committed by Hamas. There's always an excuse. Some reason why it's okay. At this point I'm convinced there's nothing they could do that you wouldn't co-sign. Granted, it's not only you. And I don't think you're doing it because you're a bad person. I think that you're too emotionally attached to the conflict to look at it objectively.

EDIT: OH RIGHT, I forgot: The tunnels aren't initially meant to use civilian infrastructure on top of them for human shields. They were used for smuggling things into Gaza that civilians need. They are however, Hamas-controlled, and used to store weapons and hide/flee IDF forces. The human shield part comes in with the other areas mentioned in earlier sources I posted.

Gaza Strip smuggling tunnels - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[hblock]

so it's not far-fetched to believe this particular hospital was one of many. As for what this information does, hopefully, it changes the opinions of people who believe Hamas are altruistic freedom fighters as opposed to terrorists willing to endanger the lives of civilians for the sake of strategic advantage.

A great portion of Gaza's surface area, not to say the vast majority of it, is full of buildings, where do you expect them to build the tunnels ? In the extremeties and sides ?

 

[ninjabot]

A great portion of Gaza's surface area, not to say the vast majority of it, is full of buildings, where do you expect them to build the tunnels ? In extremeties only.

It's not so much the tunnels that are the problem, because like I said the tunnels were meant to aid civilians via smuggling. It's the fact that they're using them now for nefarious purposes.

 

[hblock]

It's not so much the tunnels that are the problem, because like I said the tunnels were meant to aid civilians via smuggling. It's the fact that they're using them now for nefarious purposes.

If you were a resistance, the occupier is making the life of your population hell since decades and the occupier is heavily weaponized by several powerful countries arround the glob to procceed in its savagery, what would you do ?
Now, if you were one of this population under the same circumstances, who would you support, the ones fighting for your freedome or those humiliating you on a daily basis, making your life hell ?

 

[ninjabot]

If you were a resistance, the occupier is making the life of your population hell since decades and the occupier is heavily weaponized by several powerful countries arround the glob to procceed in its savagery, what would you do ?

I'd weigh my options and assuming I'm still the same current me who values human life and isn't a Muslim who places value on martyrdom I'd pick the option that leads to less dead Palestinians. Which would be desertion or surrender. Cowardice, sure. But I'd know better. Because current me knows better. I know there's no winning this.

Now, if you were one of this population under the same circumstances, who would you support, the ones fighting for your freedome or those humiliating you on a daily basis, making your life hell ?

It's hard to say because I've never been in such a terrible situation. It's likely I'd fear for my life every single day and seek aid and protection from Hamas up until the point that I can flee.

And then I'd flee. I dunno where I'd go, but I have no ties to a place where all of my family are being murdered and an incredibly powerful malevolent force has the means and desire to kill me too. I'd flee, and I'd live... and for most of my life I'd probably be a vitriolic anti-semite. And then maybe I'd get over it. Maybe. Maybe I'd chalk up my hatred and pain as a result of the Israeli government and not all Jews and I'll forgive. I dunno.