American Politics

[ninjabot]

It's the other way arround. You are not guilty until proven otherwise.
Atm, we've no evidence of Hamas commiting rape and deliberate murder. So, they didn't commit it, period.

I think what you meant to say is "the burden of proof is on the person making the claim."

M3J claimed Hamas doesn't rape, torture, or kill it's hostages. And you both keep saying your sources are better than mine.

So I'm deferring to the experts on this. Please. Show me your evidence that Hamas has not raped or killed any of their hostages.

 

[hblock]

I think what you meant to say is "the burden of proof is on the person making the claim."

M3J claimed Hamas doesn't rape, torture, or kill it's hostages. And you both keep saying your sources are better than mine.

I think you, ninjabot, is a muderer and rapist, prove me that you are not.
If you can't then by default you're a criminal.

 

[kkck]

Have you seen the US interrogate the owner of TikTok? I think one of them admitted that they want TikTok banned or under their control because they're the ones who want to steal the data, and they don't like how TikTok actually exposes the truth, like with what's going on in Palestine. They want control to keep people brainwashed. And apparently, AIPAC or Israel has been trying to get US to ban TikTok as well, and as is Meta but for greedy reasons.

US gov't is accused of lying and double standards. if they really cared about protecting American's privacy, they would be trying to take down Meta, who has been caught gathering data and selling it multiple times, as well as Twitter, not to name other social media platforms.

I can reverse that and say that Israel told her to do an 180, which seems to make sense seeing what she's been doing.

So... your stance would be that tik tok is not being used to spy or influence the US population? I don't doubt the US has its own stuff going on but that being the case shouldn't be a reason for tik tok to not be regarded as a security threat. Another extra consideration here is that china does ban foreign social networks... At this point you'd think it's reasonable that reciprocity applies. So the situation the US is in right is that chinese social media can be present in western markets but western social media can't be present in chinese markets. There's zero reasons for the US to not ban tik tok.

I mean, you could "reverse" that BUT then you'd have to contend with how stupid that is. Considering the girl is question is french-israelite, was in fact kidnapped by hamas and the one video where she ever says hamas treated her well was under while still captive by hamas. Sane people don't usually have nice things to say about their kidnappers and reality here is that she in fact does not have anything nice to say about them. Hamas deserves zero praise over not raping someone. Them not raping someone isn't a show of moral fiber. In any other situation if someone says "welp, at least they didn't rape x person" you still immediately draw the conclusion that they are somewhere in the spectrum of criminal at least.

Many of us condemned them for murdering people, but then even Israeli hostages have called out IOF soldiers on firing indiscriminately and likely hurting or killing their own people. If Hamas or Israeli hostages confirm Hamas was the one who did most of the massacre, then I shall condemn them again but won't judge Palestinians who refuse to condemn them as Israel continues to do worse to them every day than what Hamas allegedly did on one day.

Israel is more of a terrorist organization than Hamas. Hamas was created in response to Israel's violence. They weren't created just because they didn't like Jewish people, they were created because Zionists were committing genocide (Nakba?) and pushing Palestinians out of their homes and off their land, violently. Again, I purposely read Israel's version of their history, and they imply the same thing while trying to make themselves look good.

And for a terrorist organization, Hamas has not hurt or abused some/most of their hostages. Given the image they already have to those who don't think critically, why would they care about their hostages being in good shape as long as they're alive?

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 14, 2024 ---

Very light words to use for a country that's been raping, torturing, starving, bombing, and killing innocent people of all age, whether babies or adults. And ironic if you think Hamas are terrorists but Israel is just... vile. not to mention the Zionists are more anti-Semitic than Palestinians.

I mean, I don't object to the idea that israel put bombing hamas at a higher priority than bombing hamas.

Israel is not a terrorist organization/country. A basic definition of terrorism is " the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. ". That's simply not what israel is doing. They are displacing/killing palestinians, the politics and optics of it be damned. Throw in the unwillingness of other countries to accept palestinian refugees and this is just about genocidal (of course if they did israel would have probably conquered the whole area decades ago). The world hasn't given a shit about palestinians for decades and now the two sides here are israel, a country that has built real relations with every country that would have them and hamas, which is not an organization with meaningful ties to the world, does not have a plan and most of the world can't stomach over the terrorism stuff.

 

[hblock]

A basic definition of terrorism is " the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. ". That's simply not what israel is doing.

Why do I've the impression of hearing a manipulative extreme right wing zionist polititian ?

 

[ninjabot]

Gaza war hostage crisis - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This wikipedia page focuses specifically on the hostage crisis. The reason I'm posting this is because you all keep claiming that we're tricked by CNN or NY Times or... whatever.

This page has works sited at the bottom of it, all of which have green check marks proving that they are trustworthy news sources.

 

[hblock]

Wikipedia, an american mainstream media, a trusted source ?

 

[ninjabot]

I think you, ninjabot, is a muderer and rapist, prove me that you are not.
If you can't then by default you're a criminal.

So that's another claim... meaning the burden of proof is still on you. Meaning you'd still have to prove that I'm a murderer and rapist. Like I literally just explained.

Do you have any evidence backing up said claim?

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 14, 2024, Original Post Date: Mar 14, 2024 ---

Wikipedia, an american mainstream media, a trusted source ?

Not Wikipedia, the cited sources at the bottom of the page. Like I said.

 

[hblock]

Not Wikipedia, the cited sources at the bottom of the page. Like I said.

Sources like reuters, The guardian, Times of Israel, CNN, or other zionist propagandists ?

Meaning you'd still have to prove that I'm a murderer and rapist. Like I literally just explained.

The same goes for Hamas, you've to prove that they're murderers and rapists. Which you didn't.

 

[kkck]

Why do I've the impression of hearing a manipulative extreme right wing zionist polititian ?

You must have a different idea of what a manipulative extreme right wing zionist politician than me because in the next sentence I frame what israel is doing as displacement/killing and genocidal.

 

[hblock]

You must have a different idea of what a manipulative extreme right wing zionist politician than me because in the next sentence I frame what israel is doing as displacement/killing and genocidal.

You claimed that Israel :
- follows the law
- isn't terrorising civilians.
- is a legitimate state
- has the right to exist.
etc, etc, etc

 

[kkck]

You claimed that Israel :
- follows the law
- isn't terrorising civilians.
- is a legitimate state
- has the right to exist.
etc, etc, etc

I am compelled to point out that that is not a response to anything I have said. If terrorism means whatever you want then sure, israel will be whatever you want. But in the real world what israel does to palestinians does not quite fit into the definition of terrorism.

And point for point:

- follows the law: I am not sure of what this bit refers to. What israel does is universally considered to be against international law.
- isn't terrorising civilians: I mean, they are but terrorism in this context is something else.
- is a legitimate state: I don't think I have used those words. What I have said is that israel is a real country that has built relations with other countries and has a real army and there's a zero chance of it going anywhere. I have also said in this thread that it's creation is one of the worst mistakes in the 20th century and this is a shitshow that will continue to distabilize the world.
- has the right to exist. I don't think I have specifically said. At least my intention when framing this was more on the "this isn't optional at this point". Barring iran or someone nuking the place there's zero chance of israel going anywhere.

 

[ninjabot]

Sources like reuters, The guardian, Times of Israel, CNN, or other zionist propagandists ?

Whatever you've got.

The same goes for Hamas, you've to prove that they're murderers and rapists. Which you didn't.

Oh, so you did know how the burden of proof works. You just don't care because you'd rather post terrorist apologia unchecked.

You're right though. I made a claim, so I gotta back it up. Here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_and_gender-based_violence_in_the_7_October_attack_on_Israel

UN finds âconvincing informationâ that Hamas raped and tortured Israeli hostages

Pramila Patten’s findings are based on interviews with released hostages, whose testimony suggests abuses are continuing in Gaza

www.theguardian.com

“Based on the first-hand accounts of released hostages, the mission team received clear and convincing information that sexual violence, including rape, sexualized torture, and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment occurred against some women and children during their time in captivity and has reasonable grounds to believe that this violence may be ongoing,” the report said.

M3J keeps saying Israeli hostages are treated well and that they all speak well of Hamas. First-hand accounts say otherwise. And before you claim that the Guardian is a biased, Zioinist sympathizing site:

Claims of Israeli sexual assault of Palestinian women are credible, UN panel says

Experts report evidence of rape, sexual humiliation and threats of rape against girls and women

www.theguardian.com

The Guardian is getting it's information directly from the UN, and the UN is pointing out that BOTH SIDES are raping their hostages. And the Guardian reported on it rather than hiding it to make Israel look good.

And now, you and M3J can meet your burdens.

You prove I'm a rapist and a murderer. And he can prove that Hamas doesn't rape hostages.

Good luck!

 

[M3J]

To be clear: are you claiming you have a source that proves Hamas hasn't been raping or killing any of their hostages?

Israeli hostages.

If Hamas confess to raping and murdering, then I would believe Hamas. If they said they did not, then I would not believe them, as it could be a lie to not look the bad guys.

So... your stance would be that tik tok is not being used to spy or influence the US population? I don't doubt the US has its own stuff going on but that being the case shouldn't be a reason for tik tok to not be regarded as a security threat. Another extra consideration here is that china does ban foreign social networks... At this point you'd think it's reasonable that reciprocity applies. So the situation the US is in right is that chinese social media can be present in western markets but western social media can't be present in chinese markets. There's zero reasons for the US to not ban tik tok.

I mean, you could "reverse" that BUT then you'd have to contend with how stupid that is. Considering the girl is question is french-israelite, was in fact kidnapped by hamas and the one video where she ever says hamas treated her well was under while still captive by hamas. Sane people don't usually have nice things to say about their kidnappers and reality here is that she in fact does not have anything nice to say about them. Hamas deserves zero praise over not raping someone. Them not raping someone isn't a show of moral fiber. In any other situation if someone says "welp, at least they didn't rape x person" you still immediately draw the conclusion that they are somewhere in the spectrum of criminal at least.

I never said that though? But TikTok is more impartial than Twitter and Meta, where right wing bullshit is spread more easily (I think it contributed to Trump's win). TikTok does seem to be a bit more partial towards right wing bs, but it won't take severe action against left wing or anti-genocidal views the way the other social media platforms do. The "reciprocity" sounds like something 2 5-year-old kids would do, that's stupid. If USA wants to claim it's not fascist and that it's better than Russia or China, why is it talking about banning a social media app like China has banned some apps?

There is zero reason to ban TikTok. For USA, the main reasons are because they don't have any control over what's shared, so they can't brainwash or keep citizens brainwashed. What's also stopping most companies that have data from selling it to China anyway?


It's also as stupid as claiming as if Israel didn't convince her or force her to stop saying nice things about Hamas, or that she didn't do an 180 after seeing what she could gain from it. I mean, she was at the Oscars few days ago! If she really went through hell, it is a bit weird to bounce back so quickly.

So what do you think about Israel, who has actually proven to be raping, murdering, and torturing their prisoners regardless of age? Are they as bad as Hamas kidnapping but not raping or killing? Or is it better because they're not Hamas?

But also, the whole thing is about the public image of Hamas. They have this negative image as horrible terrorists but the worst thing they've done, with proof, is kidnap Israelis. If they killed tons of people at the festival too though, then yeah, nasty terrorists. But if they are as bad as people like to claim, why protect and take care of their hostages? Why not be okay with mistreating them? As long as they're alive, they're still useful.

I mean, I don't object to the idea that israel put bombing hamas at a higher priority than bombing hamas.

Israel is not a terrorist organization/country. A basic definition of terrorism is " the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims. ". That's simply not what israel is doing. They are displacing/killing palestinians, the politics and optics of it be damned. Throw in the unwillingness of other countries to accept palestinian refugees and this is just about genocidal (of course if they did israel would have probably conquered the whole area decades ago). The world hasn't given a shit about palestinians for decades and now the two sides here are israel, a country that has built real relations with every country that would have them and hamas, which is not an organization with meaningful ties to the world, does not have a plan and most of the world can't stomach over the terrorism stuff.

What?

Israel is a terrorist country because they're using unlawful violence and intimidation for political reasons. The West and Israel also had power and ability to use propaganda to paint Israel in good light long before Hamas ever existed, and Hamas/ Palestinians did not and does not have that kind of power to fool the world into thinking they're good the way Israel did. Israel has also been tricking people into thinking Hamas are terrorists and do not openly mention the fact that Hamas was created in response to Israeli's terrorism against Palestinians.

I've watched American shows like NCIS and Hollywood movies, and they all paint Israel/Mossad as good people while Hamas are just killing machines never acknowledged as response to Israel's violence. Hollywood or western media does not bring up the Nakba either.

Israel has also lost relations with some countries due to their continuous committing of genocide, even when officially told to stop.

 

[kkck]

The bit with eyewitness accounts about the music festival attack has been largely overlooked in the internet unfortunately. I suppose more extreme views took over the screen space along with this being a few months back. but yeah, People at the music festival are pretty explicit about the sheer violence hamas unleashed there. There were people from my country at the festival, they came back, they talked to local news station about the events in my language. These versions were consistent with what people in other countries talked about and the videos we saw. It's not a cnn or fox or zionist media thing.

Now, as far as deaths went this went farther than even merely folk at the music festival. A lot of people from a lot of countries died during the attack along with however many hostages. Googling quickly, germany said there were at least 8 germans who were taken hostage (haven't googled how many germans died though). Who can reasonably expect germany or any country whose citizens were brutalized by hamas to take the side of hamas, with whom most countries do not have any relations, in this conflict? That's doesn't make any sense whatsoever. No government can take openly take the side of a group that has kidnapped it's citizens as bargaining chips.

 

[hblock]

“Based on the first-hand accounts of released hostages, the mission team received clear and convincing information that sexual violence, including rape, sexualized torture, and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment occurred against some women and children during their time in captivity and has reasonable grounds to believe that this violence may be ongoing,” the report said.

Sorry but western media or soure just claiming there is clear evidence throught undirect source is both BS and irrelevant. Western media is pretty well known for its bias and slander, trying to manipulate things.
So, try better and by that I mean show me footage like IDF crimes are explicitely exposed.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 14, 2024, Original Post Date: Mar 14, 2024 ---

Now, as far as deaths went this went farther than even merely folk at the music festival. A lot of people from a lot of countries died during the attack along with however many hostages. Googling quickly, germany said there were at least 8 germans who were taken hostage (haven't googled how many germans died though). Who can reasonably expect germany or any country whose citizens were brutalized by hamas to take the side of hamas, with whom most countries do not have any relations, in this conflict? That's doesn't make any sense whatsoever. No government can take openly take the side of a group that has kidnapped it's citizens as bargaining chips.

Thanks to IOF random blasts irrespective of friend and foe.

 

[ninjabot]

Israeli hostages.

If Hamas confess to raping and murdering, then I would believe Hamas. If they said they did not, then I would not believe them, as it could be a lie to not look the bad guys.

Cool.

So now, what we have is:

Israeli hostages saying they were treated well
Israeli hostages saying they were not

Now, who do we believe? And why?

EDIT: Keep in mind: I never said that Israelis aren't raping Palestinian hostages. I'm just responding to your claims that Hamas doesn't rape Israeli hostages.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 14, 2024, Original Post Date: Mar 14, 2024 ---

Sorry but western media or soure just claiming there is clear evidence throught undirect source is both BS and irrelevant. Western media is pretty well known for its bias and slander, trying to manipulate things.
So, try better and by that I mean show me footage like IDF crimes are explicitely exposed.

Nope, the source is not the western media. The source is the UN. The Guardian isn't doing the research, they're citing reports done by the UN, so it's the UN that you'll have to accuse of being a Zionist source.

 

[kkck]

I never said that though? But TikTok is more impartial than Twitter and Meta, where right wing bullshit is spread more easily (I think it contributed to Trump's win). TikTok does seem to be a bit more partial towards right wing bs, but it won't take severe action against left wing or anti-genocidal views the way the other social media platforms do. The "reciprocity" sounds like something 2 5-year-old kids would do, that's stupid. If USA wants to claim it's not fascist and that it's better than Russia or China, why is it talking about banning a social media app like China has banned some apps?

There is zero reason to ban TikTok. For USA, the main reasons are because they don't have any control over what's shared, so they can't brainwash or keep citizens brainwashed. What's also stopping most companies that have data from selling it to China anyway?


It's also as stupid as claiming as if Israel didn't convince her or force her to stop saying nice things about Hamas, or that she didn't do an 180 after seeing what she could gain from it. I mean, she was at the Oscars few days ago! If she really went through hell, it is a bit weird to bounce back so quickly.

So what do you think about Israel, who has actually proven to be raping, murdering, and torturing their prisoners regardless of age? Are they as bad as Hamas kidnapping but not raping or killing? Or is it better because they're not Hamas?

But also, the whole thing is about the public image of Hamas. They have this negative image as horrible terrorists but the worst thing they've done, with proof, is kidnap Israelis. If they killed tons of people at the festival too though, then yeah, nasty terrorists. But if they are as bad as people like to claim, why protect and take care of their hostages? Why not be okay with mistreating them? As long as they're alive, they're still useful.




What?

Israel is a terrorist country because they're using unlawful violence and intimidation for political reasons. The West and Israel also had power and ability to use propaganda to paint Israel in good light long before Hamas ever existed, and Hamas/ Palestinians did not and does not have that kind of power to fool the world into thinking they're good the way Israel did. Israel has also been tricking people into thinking Hamas are terrorists and do not openly mention the fact that Hamas was created in response to Israeli's terrorism against Palestinians.

I've watched American shows like NCIS and Hollywood movies, and they all paint Israel/Mossad as good people while Hamas are just killing machines never acknowledged as response to Israel's violence. Hollywood or western media does not bring up the Nakba either.

Israel has also lost relations with some countries due to their continuous committing of genocide, even when officially told to stop.

The tik tok stuff has nothing to do with silly left-right US debates. The issue is whether the CCP is or not using it to spy on the US. Twitter and facebook are simply not doing anything like that like. If they were it'd be treason as far as I can tell.

"reciprocity" is the basic principle of international relations between countries lol. It's not something I randomly made up, it's something almost every country at a minimum pretends to have going on.

I mean, presented a specific definition of what terrorism is (it can also vary a bit depending on the country and institution) and explained why israel doesn't fit into it. I even mentioned what they do do which is worse than terrorism. You didn't even present a definition of terrorism which israel does fit, it's just your random nonsense. If you want to die on that hill then all I can say is godspeed ahead.

Hmmm, ok? i don't know how to respond to that other than I couldn't possibly care less of which tv shows do or do not feed your views on the geopolitics of this. And sure, some countries do not have relations with israel. Doesn't have that much bearing on anything I have said though.

 

[hblock]

Israeli hostages saying they were treated well
Israeli hostages saying they were not

Second fact is outhright wrong, a western media (basically AIPAC's slave) saying that an unknown individual from UN claiming that some hostage said he wasn't treated well is BS and irrelevant. Try better.
First fact was explicit as shown via directly interviewing few hostages who have all unanimously admitted Hamas's good and fair treatment to them.

 

[ninjabot]

Second fact is worng, a western media (basically AIPAC's slave) saying that an unknown individual from UN claiming that some hostage said he wasn't treated well is BS and irrelevant. Try better.
First fact was explicit as shown via directly interviewing few hostages who have all unanimously admitted Hamas's good and fair treatment to them.

So when the UN states that Israel is raping Palestinian hostages, that's a lie, right?

 

[hblock]

So when the UN states that Israel is raping Palestinian hostages, that's a lie, right?

It's not even the UN, it's the Guradian (AIPAC's slave) stating that an unkown individual from the UN claiming such a thing.
Also, let's not kid ourselves, the UN is nothing more than the US slave (which in turn is AIPAC's slave).

EDIT: still waiting for the footage of Hamas attrocities via the abomination's surveilliance cam's.