American Politics

[kkck]

Generally latino folk who are against migration already have their own legal situation sorted out. I don't doubt there will be exceptions but probably not enough to make latinos who supported trump go "huh, this may have been a bad idea". Those will simply see a republican being effective after 2 years of biden's confused incoherent rambling.

I continue to not be sure of who democrat's immigration policies are for. Certainly republican voters are violently against those. Democrats voters as far as I can tell have a wider range of views but I don't get the sense that what democrats were going with was particularly popular. Not even the latino voters democrats were desperately catering to supported this. If a plurality of republicans oppose what democrats were offering and democrat voters were at best divided on this... along with even the latino voters they were catering to not buying... then that simply means democrats were running on something that was unpopular. Perhaps even extremely unpopular. Is this hill worth dying on?

 

[ninjabot]

Generally latino folk who are against migration already have their own legal situation sorted out.

Sure, they do. I'm not laughing at Latino Trump voters being kicked out of the country. I'm laughing at Latino Trump voters self-destructing their family and friend groups by voting for the guy kicking their family and friends out of the country. They've become the Uncle Toms of their respective races.

I don't doubt there will be exceptions but probably not enough to make latinos who supported trump go "huh, this may have been a bad idea". Those will simply see a republican being effective after 2 years of biden's confused incoherent rambling.

Is there a way to make 700k worth of taxpayer money spent on deporting 80 people sound like an effective use of money? I mean sure, it's coherent so you got me there. But that just means it's easier to tell that it's fucking retarded.

I don't know if you've been to America, but during Biden's presidency, MAGA Republicans would buy these stickers that show Biden pointing, and saying "I did that." They would put the stickers on gas pumps so that when you look at the price of gas you'd get it in your head that it's Biden's fault for high gas prices. I saw plenty in my hometown and when I'd visit relatives.

They need to have shit like this done to them. They need their noses rubbed into it.

 

[kkck]

Sure, they do. I'm not laughing at Latino Trump voters being kicked out of the country. I'm laughing at Latino Trump voters self-destructing their family and friend groups by voting for the guy kicking their family and friends out of the country. They've become the Uncle Toms of their respective races.

Is there a way to make 700k worth of taxpayer money spent on deporting 80 people sound like an effective use of money? I mean sure, it's coherent so you got me there. But that just means it's easier to tell that it's fucking retarded.

I don't know if you've been to America, but during Biden's presidency, MAGA Republicans would buy these stickers that show Biden pointing, and saying "I did that." They would put the stickers on gas pumps so that when you look at the price of gas you'd get it in your head that it's Biden's fault for high gas prices. I saw plenty in my hometown and when I'd visit relatives.

They need to have shit like this done to them. They need their noses rubbed into it.

The question would be how many of those there are.

Ah, going about it that way is definitely wasteful and unsustainable even. I don't think the general electorate is as easy to convince though. And with republicans going for increasing cruelty and democrats seemingly sticking to their current stances I don't see things changing for the better in the short term at least.

I've spent significant amount of time at the US over my life, though less and less over the past several years. I don't think the stickers would cause the latinos in question nearly as much shame as you think. As far as google suggests, immigration was not the issue that drove latino votes anyways (though I would maintain democrat's stances are not particularly popular for them). Like with a lot of folk at the US voting for trump was driven by the apparent perception that republicans (trump) is better for the economy (and cultural issues as well).

 

[shionoro]

Generally, I do think it is illadvised to push too much blame right now. It is absolutely right to show the people who go on twitter right now and say WHY DONT DEMOCRATS STOP TRUMP?!?! the middle finger. But singling out voter groups because some people did not vote Kamala does not seem productive.

 

[M3J]

Why be self-reflective and rally alongside the vulnerable when you can shit on them instead? After all, they were asking for it because they didn't vote hard enough, right? Wait, what's that, they can't vote in the first place? ....ohh, well that's kinda awkward then.

I just hope these blue magas don't blame Muslims and anyone else if/when they lose future elections as well. It's embarrassing to see how they keep burning bridges and then expect people to vote for them.

 

[xi0]

Schadenfreude is "easy" and it accomplishes nothing in the long run. For anyone who votes against their best interests, there are children and others who can't vote who are involved. I don't feel sorry for people who are militantly stupid about their decisions, but their decisions don't just affect them.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 31, 2025, Original Post Date: Jan 31, 2025 ---

I just hope these blue magas don't blame Muslims and anyone else if/when they lose future elections as well. It's embarrassing to see how they keep burning bridges and then expect people to vote for them.

It's already happening. It was happening before the election even happened.

 

[ninjabot]

The question would be how many of those there are.

Ah, going about it that way is definitely wasteful and unsustainable even. I don't think the general electorate is as easy to convince though. And with republicans going for increasing cruelty and democrats seemingly sticking to their current stances I don't see things changing for the better in the short term at least.

*shrugs* They get what they voted for.

I've spent significant amount of time at the US over my life, though less and less over the past several years. I don't think the stickers would cause the latinos in question nearly as much shame as you think. As far as google suggests, immigration was not the issue that drove latino votes anyways (though I would maintain democrat's stances are not particularly popular for them). Like with a lot of folk at the US voting for trump was driven by the apparent perception that republicans (trump) is better for the economy (and cultural issues as well).

That only helps my point that Latinos are being fucked (unless they're rich like Elon I guess. His share price increased by 70% since November) for their decision: the economy isn't looking better under Trump yet and there are huge warning signs that it's just gonna get worse. He's made decisions that result in more money spent by these Latino voters along with every other American. The tariffs are feared to fuck with the entire global economy, not just the American economy.

It's too early to say things won't magically turn around and eventually Latino voters get some sort of benefits of backing Trump. I don't know what the hell those would be outside of anti-LGBTQ stuff that their Catholic upbringing makes them support. But financially? That's a little more cut and dry so far.

Guess we wait and see. Also the response about the stickers was meant for just Trump supporters in general, not exclusively Latinos. The type that felt the need to put those stickers on gas pumps in the first place.

Generally, I do think it is illadvised to push too much blame right now. It is absolutely right to show the people who go on twitter right now and say WHY DONT DEMOCRATS STOP TRUMP?!?! the middle finger. But singling out voter groups because some people did not vote Kamala does not seem productive.

What about an accurate amount of blame? Is that ill-advised?

 

[xi0]

What about an accurate amount of blame? Is that ill-advised?

How much blame to the Democrats deserve then? We know voters ultimately decide elections in a democracy, but if someone loses an election is that always the voters fault? What would the percentage be?

 

[ninjabot]

Schadenfreude is "easy" and it accomplishes nothing in the long run.

Nah, vindication is good for the soul. And shaming is good for correcting someone's behavior (assuming they're a decent enough human being that they can FEEL shame in the first place).

For anyone who votes against their best interests, there are children and others who can't vote who are involved. I don't feel sorry for people who are militantly stupid about their decisions, but their decisions don't just affect them.

That's why these instances I'm highlighting are so important. I dunno why these people can't recognize their folly until it hits their home (well yes I can: they don't empathize with anyone that's not like them). It's not enough to just not feel sorry for them. They won't self reflect if no one's calling them out on it.

 

[shionoro]

What about an accurate amount of blame? Is that ill-advised?

Who judges what is accurate?

 

[xi0]

Nah, vindication is good for the soul. And shaming is good for correcting someone's behavior (assuming they're a decent enough human being that they can FEEL shame in the first place).

People aren't dogs. Not voting in the correct way isn't the same as brazenly harboring bad ideas. You don't scold people into making better choices for themselves.

That's why these instances I'm highlighting are so important. I dunno why these people can't recognize their folly until it hits their home (well yes I can: they don't empathize with anyone that's not like them). It's not enough to just not feel sorry for them. They won't self reflect if no one's calling them out on it.

No one is doing that in any large number regardless of whether someone calls them out or not. Especially not if no one asks that of political leaders either.

 

[ninjabot]

How much blame to the Democrats deserve then? We know voters ultimately decide elections in a democracy, but if someone loses an election is that always the voters fault? What would the percentage be?

Depends on how much more effort they put into avoiding a second Trump presidency than these Trump voters/non-voters did. Hell if it's as simple as "well... they voted for Kamala", then they're already warranted less blame than anyone that didn't vote. I'd say the non-voters warrant more blame than the Trump voters do, because they voted for what they want. The non-voters didn't want either candidate, knew one would be voted in anyway, and still didn't take that as sufficient reason that they should vote for the lesser evil.

Who judges what is accurate?

Someone capable of drawing a line from someone's actions or inactions, directly to the consequences of said actions or inactions. So, anyone that's not a fucking idiot I'd say.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 31, 2025, Original Post Date: Jan 31, 2025 ---

People aren't dogs. Not voting in the correct way isn't the same as brazenly harboring bad ideas.

It is the same as not taking action to avoid/prevent bad ideas gaining power and momentum. And humans aren't dogs but they are trainable.

No one is doing that in any large number regardless of whether someone calls them out or not. Especially not if no one asks that of political leaders either.

Maybe they're not self-reflecting, but they are making different decisions from what they did in the past to avoid repeating previous events. You can make people change, you just have to show them something they really don't like and they'll run from it. People ran from a bad economy regardless of the cultural implications, dropping they're more democratic beliefs over fucking eggs. There's a Pavlovian path here, we just gotta find the right bell.

And it's not ignore the bad guys and attack the good guys for failing to stop the bad guys.

 

[shionoro]

Someone capable of drawing a line from someone's actions or inactions, directly to the consequences of said actions or inactions. So, anyone that's not a fucking idiot I'd say.

I do not think I am an idiot and neither are you, but I'd wager that we have a very different idea of who deserves which blame.

 

[catagon87]

Today is a difficult day in Germany, because the conservative party knowingly voted with the right extremist party for the first time on the national level. That might not sound like much, but it is. German politics had the understanding that this is something you simply do not do even as conservative, but now even a coalition between the conservatives and the right extremists comes into the realm of possible. The right extremists are already at roughly 20% in the polls and even have chances to become the strongest political force (with the support of Elon Musk, no less).

We're learning in real time how long it takes to wash away the past. Just a decade ago anything Nazi related would bring you immense shame, scorn and cause you to be ostracized. Now we're at the point where Elon does a Nazi salute multiple times on camera and the alt right think it's funny because it was to "own the libs."

 

[ninjabot]

We're learning in real time how long it takes to wash away the past. Just a decade ago anything Nazi related would bring you immense shame, scorn and cause you to be ostracized. Now we're at the point where Elon does a Nazi salute multiple times on camera and the alt right think it's funny because it was to "own the libs."

I remember when Nazis would just get punched in public. For existing.

Not advocating for violence. Just saying, I remember it.

 

[M3J]

It's already happening. It was happening before the election even happened.

Not to my knowledge. Libs were still pretending everything was good and all and that they weren't secretly bigoted until Palestine supporters and Muslims said they weren't voting for Biden.

I hope they know they're responsible for Trump, as much as Biden and Harris are.

 

[shionoro]

We're learning in real time how long it takes to wash away the past. Just a decade ago anything Nazi related would bring you immense shame, scorn and cause you to be ostracized. Now we're at the point where Elon does a Nazi salute multiple times on camera and the alt right think it's funny because it was to "own the libs."

Yes. It was somewhat of a ruse even back then, I think. While it was condemned if you were openly racist, the fascist talking points grew in silence and were echoed into the mainstream discussions. Then suddenly, things switched and it is fine to openly be a Nazi, after decades of desensitizing.

But I do think there is still a majority who does not want that. It just cannot articulate itself as a united voice right now.

 

[M3J]

I don't think Trump was the worst president in his first term, but he is determined to make the world record as one of the worst president and maybe the worst leader in his second term.

 

[shionoro]

There is a difference between being simply bad and being an actual fascist. Being a horrible president is, in itself, not insanely problematic as you can just be voted out quickly and not break too much. Being a fascist like Trump at least by now is is insanely dangerous.

At least I am afraid of what is to come for the US. I would be pleasantly surprised if Trump wouldnt do things like using the military in democratic states until 2028.

 

[M3J]

Well, Japan's alliance with Germany and attacking USA delayed the rise of fascism/Nazism in the US or hid it for a while, so it'll be interesting to see what happens now. I'm sad that my votes for Clinton and Harris didn't work out because they were ineffective at campaigning, and because voters prefer a bigot.

Being a horrible president is very problematic and could do a lot of damage. Look at how Hoover's belief in free market hurt people, while FDR's "socialism" helped people. Then you had presidents like Wilson who was openly racist, and Reagan who set forth so many policies that fucked over most citizens while benefitting the wealthy and businesses, which affects us to this day.