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korwinkrulpolski

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Trump was played like a kid by China/Russia (or he was indeed once recruited/bribed by KGB). In a few weeks USA lost all credibility for Europe and North American countries. In South America or Africa United States were never that popular. States will have to work very hard and for a long time to rebuild credibility. I haven't seen such unity about arming the countries across Europe since I was born and I live in the postsoviet, very much war-experienced country.

Too bad he and Musk don't speak russian. It's so funny to read their press and watch their tv right now. In Russia there's strong sense "they played USA" (and rightfully so). Heck, yesterday I watch Solovyov program on "Rassiya Adin" (Россия 1, main Russian public TV).. They were talking about nuking the US in next 15 years or so (of course it's exaggerated, nevertheless Solovyov or Dugin are good source of "what's Russian higher up really thinks and in the US hardly anyone knows jack shit about Russia or Russian mentality).
 
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kkck

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As far as I can tell russia's game has been pretty obvious for a while. Back in trump's first presidency suddenly ukraine because this massive issue with trump trying to condition aid in return for dirt on democrats. Then suddenly that ukranian company hiring hunter biden was a massive deal. Then, after I assume a delay caused by covid, russia invades ukraine. So... isn't it pretty transparent that russia threw propaganda in every direction they could so as to specifically sour right wing politics with ukraine, a country that was trying to distance itself from russia and have more economic ties with europe, so that it could invade with half the US and EU supporting the invasion. And meanwhile left wing parties in US and EU are dying on unpopular hills entirely devoid real policy. At this point I am just expecting trump to announce US crops have to be watered with gatorade.
 

xi0

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It's something
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---

TBH one of the more surprising parts of this discussion to me is that the leftwing-progressive honest to god answer to this is "yeah, let's continue to pay illegal aliens a below livable wage under the table.". And sure, this requires changing how the economy works (or removing the incentives itself would be what changes the economy). I just don't think this is likely to be a bad thing in the long term.

This reminds me to stuff I keep hearing in my side of the world. You'll always find the economist who argues "hey, corruption generates X amount of money so we can't get rid of it too quickly" or "hey, you can't actually take down the drug trade because it generates economic activity". There's always a reason to not fix things...
I understand your point, but I think conflating illegal immigration to corruption or the drug trade is kind of uncharitable? People come here to work to survive and provide for their families. It's not a nefarious thing that can be fixed in a broadly punitive way IMO.

And no, I wouldn't advocate for illegal aliens to continue to be paid a shit wage but I don't think the alternative addresses the issue at all and is demonstrably cruel and unproductive.
--- Double Post Merged, ---

The attempt I mentioned in a previous exchange we had that you dismissed. Which didn't include taking over Gaza and kicking all the Palestinians out. I'm also not allowing you all to give Trump the win for the ceasefire deal Biden had been working toward for a year. The one win the Palestinian people got was courtesy of Joe Biden. A Democrat.
What did Biden accomplish when "working" on a ceasefire deal for a year? I'm not at all interested in giving Trump kudos for anything, but plugging your ears doesn't do much. Like I said before, the "win" was delivered by Netanyahu, which makes Biden's ineptitude or unwillingness to do anything of substance even more maddening.

What has Biden or Kamala said that gives you reason to believe that they want America to take over Gaza and kick all the Palestinians out? SPECIFICALLY that exact action, because that's what we're talking about.

Is there anything other than absolute capitulation to terrorist sympathizers that would convince you that they're better than Trump on the issue of Israel/Palestine?
What is the point of SPECIFICALLY talking about this plan? A plan he thought dreamt up while comatose over too many Fillet-O-Fishes. The goal is the same - ethnic cleansing and genocide. Something that's been going on for a long time. Israelis have been talking about turning Gaza into a theme park for a while now, it's not something he should be credited with even.

I already said they probably were preferable when it came to the issue, but saying something like that kind of implies Biden/Harris was at least somewhat halfway between where Republicans are on the issue and where "terrorists" are, and they really aren't/weren't.
 

kkck

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I understand your point, but I think conflating illegal immigration to corruption or the drug trade is kind of uncharitable? People come here to work to survive and provide for their families. It's not a nefarious thing that can be fixed in a broadly punitive way IMO.

And no, I wouldn't advocate for illegal aliens to continue to be paid a shit wage but I don't think the alternative addresses the issue at all and is demonstrably cruel and unproductive.
But why? In any issue the consequences of it and adjacent problems add to the nuance of it. And i am not even advocating for exclusively punitive measures or the cruel nonsense trump seems so fond of. There is a punitive angle of course (the law is by nature coercive) but it's not the only solution. It's already bad enough that cokeheads in US and EU provide some of the most vile humans alive with unlimited funding to keep armies of tens fo thousands murderers incapable of empathy well funded south of the border, there's a desperate need to not be passive in doing sensible things to cut out sources of revenue for them.
 

shionoro

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I'm not who you directed this at, but I would start by saying that a lot of this won't work in the USA. For one, most people in the USA don't enter into politics for the salary, they enter for the lobbyist kickbacks. Eradicating that requires the entire government (both Democrats and Republicans) to overhaul one of their favorite parts of government (the kickbacks).

The portion of the USA that cares about what's going on with ICE is a bubble that mostly cannot vote. The vast majority of citizens will look at it and some will think "That's horrible," some will think "Well it's about time we kicked out these illegals," and most will simply be apathetic since it doesn't affect them personally.

Germany also has had a hostile government takeover in their memorable history. There are people alive who experienced Nazism first hand. Most of the USA has not experienced such kind of hardships.

I am not trying to patronize you, but the ship you're talking about here has long since sailed. This isn't simply "my benefits got cut!" We're pushing into French Revolution territory over here.
Especially if you want a nonparliamentary revolution or think one is necessary, it is even more important to stop talking about past failings of Democrats and instead gets busy and build up trust and networks. It is very important right now to look at the things that might generate energy. That is true both for building up a worthy democratic party but also if you think the best shot is nonparliamentary resistance of any kind.

I personally think that the strategy I outlined would work just fine in the US, both for nonparliamenary groups and democrats. Of course, you need adjustments, but building trust via tangible help for citizens is something that just works for humans. If you think it wouldnt work with ICE, then you can try different topics like rent, like healthcare, legal help, disaster relief and so on.

People who just have their benefit cut are not automatically voting against the person who did it, because they might not even understand what happened. But people do remember who helped them, especially when the person helping them explains to them how they are fighting for them. I can see that around here even hardcore conspiracy nuts can gain trust for a leftist party if you actually knock at their door and listen or help them when they are about to lose their flat due to legal issues.

Most states have like 50% turnout for the midterms. It is not like you'd have to win over people who'd die for Donald Trump, but people who are disappointed from politics and NEED someone they can trust to turn back.

And well, if you want a french revolution, you also need people who trust you and the same stategy can be really useful for that.

Even if one disagree with that tactic, then everyone is invited to find another tactic to gain enough trust to build up a resistance. But talking about democrat failings of the past is not going to accomplish that. The only reason to criticise democrats is to make the democrat party better in the future, and that needs some trust into them.
 

M3J

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Especially if you want a nonparliamentary revolution or think one is necessary, it is even more important to stop talking about past failings of Democrats and instead gets busy and build up trust and networks. It is very important right now to look at the things that might generate energy. That is true both for building up a worthy democratic party but also if you think the best shot is nonparliamentary resistance of any kind.
I hope you don't mind that Dems don't address their failures and learn from it, otherwise they'll just keep losing.
 

shionoro

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I hope you don't mind that Dems don't address their failures and learn from it, otherwise they'll just keep losing.
Should that stop us?
 

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What did Biden accomplish when "working" on a ceasefire deal for a year? I'm not at all interested in giving Trump kudos for anything, but plugging your ears doesn't do much. Like I said before, the "win" was delivered by Netanyahu, which makes Biden's ineptitude or unwillingness to do anything of substance even more maddening.
The ceasefire was the accomplishment. And who do you think Biden was talking to during the negotiations toward the ceasefire? Do you think Netanyahu's choice happened in a vacuum, without any input from anyone else, most specifically Biden?

What is the point of SPECIFICALLY talking about this plan?
Seriously? You quoted the exact reason.

Me said:
SPECIFICALLY that exact action, because that's what we're talking about.
It was just me keeping the goalposts in place. Because the claim was that people had "no reason to believe that Biden or Kamala would be any different from Trump if they were president" while talking about Gaza. That means, from Biden and Kamala's words, we did not/could not know that:

They didn't want to take over Gaza
They didn't want to move all the Palestinians out
They didn't want to turn Gaza into a beautiful resort

So clearly, there's messaging provided by the Dems that was tantamount to these same statements. I'd like to know what that messaging was.

Now I'll be good faith and admit that Trump didn't provide these exact positions until after he was elected, but he'd been saying shitty things about Palestine before that point. Using Palestinian as an insult, threatening to deport students who protest against Israel, stuff like that. I'd like to know what Democrats did that was similar. Unless you guys would like to drop that talking point.

I already said they probably were preferable when it came to the issue, but saying something like that kind of implies Biden/Harris was at least somewhat halfway between where Republicans are on the issue and where "terrorists" are, and they really aren't/weren't.
I'm fairly certain you're responding to a quote meant for M3J trying to, again, justify leftists not voting for Kamala. If this was a response to you, it's only because I mistook you doing the same thing.
 

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@xi0 In a way, this is some kind of a last stand inside the democratic party. I respect Sanders a lot. Even tho he will not be president, he is pushing everything he can to pave the way for a progressive successor (or successors) to prevail in the midterms and beyond. They really must win. if the democrats do not run with an actually progressive candidate this time, I think the show for the US is over.
 

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Should that stop us?
I meant "mean," not "mind."

But Dems are already stopping themselves because they're full of selfish fossils. But again, maybe there may be hope in a year or in three years with the way Trump is fucking everything up
 

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I meant "mean," not "mind."

But Dems are already stopping themselves because they're full of selfish fossils. But again, maybe there may be hope in a year or in three years with the way Trump is fucking everything up
I think Dems are not a monolith. Bernie is doing something and some Dems are uniting behind him. If I were American, I'd do the same.
 

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That doesn't mean much until the campaign season, when Dems reveal their true colors. Bernie can be doing all he can for the Dems, and it'll be for naught because Dems don't care about the left and would rather cater to the people that hate them. Biden in 2020 went from sucking up to the left to alienating them in 2024, and Bernie supporters went to Trump in 2016 because of how Dems treated Bernie.
 

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That doesn't mean much until the campaign season, when Dems reveal their true colors. Bernie can be doing all he can for the Dems, and it'll be for naught because Dems don't care about the left and would rather cater to the people that hate them. Biden in 2020 went from sucking up to the left to alienating them in 2024, and Bernie supporters went to Trump in 2016 because of how Dems treated Bernie.
The time to support Bernie starts now so there is a robust campaign in two years.
 

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And what makes you think Dems will do that?
 

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And what makes you think Dems will do that?
I think you should do that if you think the democratic party should change. Its not gonna happen if nobody rallies behind sanders. There are going to be primaries for midterms and that is where a leftturn can be initiated. The groundwork for that starts now.
 

kkck

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The time to support Bernie starts now so there is a robust campaign in two years.
Bernie is 83 years old. He'll be 85 by the next midterms and 87 by the next elections. Bernie has an outstanding career but he just isn't the future of the party.
 

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Bernie is 83 years old. He'll be 85 by the next midterms and 87 by the next elections. Bernie has an outstanding career but he just isn't the future of the party.
Bernie is the only politician right now doing anything to build up a movement for the midterms. He cannot be president, but he sure can pave the way. Now is a good moment to start setting topics.
 
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catagon87

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I think you should do that if you think the democratic party should change. Its not gonna happen if nobody rallies behind sanders. There are going to be primaries for midterms and that is where a leftturn can be initiated. The groundwork for that starts now.
...
Bernie is the only politician right now doing anything to build up a movement for the midterms. He cannot be president, but he sure can pave the way. Now is a good moment to start setting topics.
Why do you think mid terms matter at all? After all that's happened in a single month, they are essentially an eternity away.

There are six conservative judges on the Supreme Court, three of whom are appointed by Trump.
Most branches of Government are caving under Trump's demands.
The current president is a literal felon. He pardoned a plethora of insurrectionists and made an infowars regular Deputy Director of the FBI, and put Kash, a guy who writes children's books about silencing King Trump's enemies, the leader of the FBI.
He has a 27 year old as the White House Press Secretary.
We have a non-doctor who is anti-vax leading HHS.
We have every employee in the entire Federal Government being sent "The Bobs" emails asking to detail their last week in five bullet points.
We have National Parks severely understaffed.
The Secretary of Defense is a known alcoholic who can't even go to a press briefing without some bourbon in hand.
The only qualified cabinet member is Marco Rubio.
Some of the most reliable sources of news have been banned from their White House access due to not falling in line.
CEOs with some of the largest reach in the USA are completely in line with Donald Trump. People who have access to push a button and spread misinformation.
We have a president who is claiming the Ukraine as the aggressor in their conflict with Russia and that Zelenskyy is a dictator while reiterating many Russian media talking points to perfection.
We have kids who have barely graduated college and who couldn't pass a background check for McDonalds accessing some of the most sensitive databases in the nation led by a megalomaniac who doesn't understand relational data.

Most of Trump's supporters are happy with the results because they have a very minimal understanding of what the departments do and how they operate. People who didn't even know what USAID was two weeks ago are now claiming they're terraforming our skies and poisoning us. They are fine with pain as long as it leads to some Liberal tears. Are there some Leapords Ate My Face moments? Sure. The vast majority of them are going to blame their predicaments on Biden (and Obama).

Democrats aren't going to do shit. It takes enough effort to get them to go stand in front of a camera in front of agencies they have never visited before to say some nice things and be denied entry to a building by police. Assuming a Democracy still exists in two to four years, the most likely thing that happens going forward is the vast amount of narcissists gathered in one place create a steady amount of in-fighting which causes a high level of churn in the cabinet (as happened in Trump's first term). Democrats may nominate a mid-40's male candidate who has some level of reach that can capture both moderates and never-Trumpers, the House and Senate barely change due to the amount of House seats in rural areas. Thomas will probably be forced to retire, securing another ultra-conservative judge who's in their 40s. Democrats will take to the streets with signs saying "stack the courts!" Nothing will happen. More rights are going to be eroded regardless of who's the president due to the make up of the court(s) and how challenges are brought up.

With all of this it's probably still 50/50 Democrats throw a candidate into the ring who is not palatable to the average US voter (regardless of political affiliation).
 

kkck

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Why do you think mid terms matter at all? After all that's happened in a single month, they are essentially an eternity away.

There are six conservative judges on the Supreme Court, three of whom are appointed by Trump.
Most branches of Government are caving under Trump's demands.
The current president is a literal felon. He pardoned a plethora of insurrectionists and made an infowars regular Deputy Director of the FBI, and put Kash, a guy who writes children's books about silencing King Trump's enemies, the leader of the FBI.
He has a 27 year old as the White House Press Secretary.
We have a non-doctor who is anti-vax leading HHS.
We have every employee in the entire Federal Government being sent "The Bobs" emails asking to detail their last week in five bullet points.
We have National Parks severely understaffed.
The Secretary of Defense is a known alcoholic who can't even go to a press briefing without some bourbon in hand.
The only qualified cabinet member is Marco Rubio.
Some of the most reliable sources of news have been banned from their White House access due to not falling in line.
CEOs with some of the largest reach in the USA are completely in line with Donald Trump. People who have access to push a button and spread misinformation.
We have a president who is claiming the Ukraine as the aggressor in their conflict with Russia and that Zelenskyy is a dictator while reiterating many Russian media talking points to perfection.
We have kids who have barely graduated college and who couldn't pass a background check for McDonalds accessing some of the most sensitive databases in the nation led by a megalomaniac who doesn't understand relational data.

Most of Trump's supporters are happy with the results because they have a very minimal understanding of what the departments do and how they operate. People who didn't even know what USAID was two weeks ago are now claiming they're terraforming our skies and poisoning us. They are fine with pain as long as it leads to some Liberal tears. Are there some Leapords Ate My Face moments? Sure. The vast majority of them are going to blame their predicaments on Biden (and Obama).

Democrats aren't going to do shit. It takes enough effort to get them to go stand in front of a camera in front of agencies they have never visited before to say some nice things and be denied entry to a building by police. Assuming a Democracy still exists in two to four years, the most likely thing that happens going forward is the vast amount of narcissists gathered in one place create a steady amount of in-fighting which causes a high level of churn in the cabinet (as happened in Trump's first term). Democrats may nominate a mid-40's male candidate who has some level of reach that can capture both moderates and never-Trumpers, the House and Senate barely change due to the amount of House seats in rural areas. Thomas will probably be forced to retire, securing another ultra-conservative judge who's in their 40s. Democrats will take to the streets with signs saying "stack the courts!" Nothing will happen. More rights are going to be eroded regardless of who's the president due to the make up of the court(s) and how challenges are brought up.

With all of this it's probably still 50/50 Democrats throw a candidate into the ring who is not palatable to the average US voter (regardless of political affiliation).
I would make the point these are all reasons for the midterms to be important. Trump's term will follow its course and democrats can either build a movement or not. Of course democrats have to fight now as well but there has to be an acknowledgement of how little power they actually wield and by extension how limited their capacity to stop trump is.
 

catagon87

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I would make the point these are all reasons for the midterms to be important. Trump's term will follow its course and democrats can either build a movement or not. Of course democrats have to fight now as well but there has to be an acknowledgement of how little power they actually wield and by extension how limited their capacity to stop trump is.
The problem is that they have no plan or strategy. Rally behind Bernie, then what? You'll still have half (or more) of the country telling you they don't want to pay for peoples' college, daycare or healthcare regardless of whether they're pissed at Trump or not. The midterms are pretty likely to be consistent with the past - a bunch of bubbles (like reddit) making a small subset of voters feel like it's impossible for them to lose. Then when the midterms happen and we end up with something like a split congress with 51 democrats and 49 republicans, the democrats are going to be too chickenshit to do anything for fear or retribution. We'll still see them passing any budget Trump wants when any form of Government shutdown comes up because Government shutdowns are a tool for the right and the death knell of the left.

Their current strategy is literally "when shit gets really bad, our voters will come back to us!" Meanwhile donors are pulling out at alarming rates.
 
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