American Politics

[kkck]

Pragmatic I guess, but would you feel the same way if you were the son of refugees from your home country that they/you weren't allowed to return to even if you wanted? I imagine that most people could be opinionated enough to state as much publicly, especially in a country that has something like the first amendment.

Hmmm, it's a bit hard to put myself in his shoes but I think if i was coherent with how I normally approach things I'd probably prioritize survival. Student visas end, even with one there's no guarantee of a job to continue with the opt program post college to be on the path towards a green card and then citizenship. Non US citizens to my knowledge have first amendments rights in the US but visas are handled in a discretionary manner so it ends up not being relevant. The guys best option as far as i can tell is trump personally showing him mercy. Or the case getting enough attention that trump doesn't think deporting him is worth the bad press.

 

[shionoro]

Meanwhile:

Supreme Court rules Trump officials must 'facilitate' release of man deported to El Salvador

The government has said Kilmar Abrego Garcia was deported in error, but has resisted returning him to the US.

www.bbc.com

ICE illegally deported someone to El Salvador. A judge ordere them to take him back. Government tried to delay and basically just didnt do it until the supreme court stepped in. This is the reaction of the justice department:

A justice department spokesperson told the BBC that the Supreme Court correctly recognised "it is the exclusive prerogative of the president to conduct foreign affairs".

"By directly noting the deference owed to the executive branch, this ruling once again illustrates that activist judges do not have the jurisdiction to seize control of the president's authority to conduct foreign policy."

They are pressing on and on with the line that they do not have to respect the law.

Without citizenship, right now, in the US you cannot be sure that your rights are upheld. Even if you did nothing wrong. Especially if you say things Trump does not like

 

[xi0]

Hmmm, it's a bit hard to put myself in his shoes but I think if i was coherent with how I normally approach things I'd probably prioritize survival. Student visas end, even with one there's no guarantee of a job to continue with the opt program post college to be on the path towards a green card and then citizenship. Non US citizens to my knowledge have first amendments rights in the US but visas are handled in a discretionary manner so it ends up not being relevant. The guys best option as far as i can tell is trump personally showing him mercy. Or the case getting enough attention that trump doesn't think deporting him is worth the bad press.

Well, I guess the guy is more about standing for something, even if it's of some sort of personal cost to him (it already has, as in the eyes of Israel, someone born down the street from Columbia University where he's a student has a better chance of returning to wherever it is his parents/family are from). There's nothing disqualifying about what he's said or done and plenty of citizens in Trump's very party are the kinds of people more deserving of being accosted IMO.

But yeah the point is generally citizens rights don't trump basic human rights, even if discretion is involved.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 12, 2025, Original Post Date: Apr 12, 2025 ---

Didn't intend to get preachy since all of this stuff is self-evident and the discussion was more about his choices, but my point is this shouldn't be a choice in the first place. I forget if I knew where you went to school here, but going out of your way not to ruffle any feathers as a foreigner is "smart" enough in a sense because you're at the mercy of whatever backward people hold purchase over you. It's a bit different when someone is an Ivy League student in NYC and the federal government is just doing whatever the fuck they want in the name of stopping "antisemitism".

 

[Raven]

Pathetic country for real

 

[ninjabot]

Yeah, people were tired of trump by the 2020 elections. But what happened immediately after that? Biden was already less popular than trump ever was even before his mind checked out. And then he went on to age like milk and spent the last two years of his presidency being an embarrassing and confused old man that should have been 25thed. There's isn't an amount of punishment trump can deliver that will make people like democrats because democrats don't do jack shit for the middle class. Trump doesn't either but he at least speaks to their grievances.

Well yeah, but I don't see how that counters anything I'm saying. I said people voted for Trump because they didn't like Biden and you're emphasizing how much the people didn't like Biden. What are we disagreeing about?

For the bolded, that's just demonstrably false, as proven by 2020. And the same thing that pushed people to Democrats in 2020 is happening today in 2025: Trump is ruining the lives of the everyday middle-class American with his tariff fuckery, the same way that his handling of Covid literally got thousands killed. People are sick of his idiocy to the point that even his sycophants are questioning if not outright chastizing him. I'd argue it's much worse this time around based on the fact that there are no Democrats around to blame (try as he might).

But it was then voters in 2024 deciding that Trump wasn't so bad after all.

No no no. They didn't decide Trump "wasn't so bad". They decided Trump "wasn't as bad as Biden". That's my entire point. "Are you better off than you were 4 years ago?" is the meme question and I can't think of a non-billionaire American who can answer that with an enthusiastic "Yes" right now. But there were plenty of people who answered that question with "No" when Biden was president.

Let's say you are right and America keeps flip-flopping between leaders that everybody hates, one liberal and one right extremist. That is not a sustainable state. Every time it happens the amount of people willing to defend democracy will diminish. At some point, people will long for a dictator so at least the political line keeps somewhat stable.

I never said it was praxis or anything, I was just noticing a pattern is all. It helps to acknowledge the ebb and flow of society and flow with it to take advantage of the momentum, IMHO. Conservatives did so elegantly.

They took advantage of young men's disillusionment with the Left and its demonizing of masculinity in order to groom them into young conservatives

They took advantage of the average American's distrust of news media and leaned into the podcast format to get their propaganda to more people faster

They took advantage of the cringe and woke-scolding far left and used them as a strawman caricature to make America think regular Democrats were crazy

They took advantage of the financial worries of the working class by blaming all the economic problems they suffer on Democrats and hammering it home

What democrats need is a Claudia Sheinbaum, a leader who is able to get the goodwill of even those people who did not vote for her. Winning with 51% and being hated by the other 49% will lead to demise.

Only if, after winning with 51%, you don't have a Project 2025-style agenda designed to flip the entire country upside down and prevent power from switching again.

 

[shionoro]

@ninjabot I base what I said on the approval polls for Trump. Shortly before he was elected a second time, his approval was at an all time high. It wasnt like Trump was just less unpopular than Biden. He was popular, even had a netpopularity plus.

Generally, I think it is common sense that in a country that has a lack of trust into the system and leadership, there are more changes in government. Because the people are more inclined to be mad at the government.

That is why Democrats need to regain trust and that only works with a candidate and party who is actually liked and trusted. Without that, there is actually only a P2025 style project to keep things stable and that shouldnt be the target.

 

[Sanity Check]

That is why Democrats need to regain trust and that only works with a candidate and party who is actually liked and trusted.

Looks like RFK Jr. is being groomed for that role.

He's your guy.

 

[M3J]

They deported Mahmoud Khalil without him being guilty of a crime. just like that, for saying things that a judge ruled are "against American core values".

With this ruling, no non-citizen is safe when he expresses his opinion.

Even citizens aren't going to be safe.

That is why Democrats need to regain trust and that only works with a candidate and party who is actually liked and trusted. Without that, there is actually only a P2025 style project to keep things stable and that shouldnt be the target.

Jasmine Crockett is a great choice, she's funny, relatable, and has no problem standing up to republicans.

 

[ninjabot]

@ninjabot I base what I said on the approval polls for Trump. Shortly before he was elected a second time, his approval was at an all time high. It wasnt like Trump was just less unpopular than Biden. He was popular, even had a netpopularity plus.

I'd need to know the context. My approval rating that I'd give to Kamala or Biden would be greater than what I'd give to Trump because I hate him. I don't doubt it's the same for most other Americans regardless of their political alignment.

Generally, I think it is common sense that in a country that has a lack of trust into the system and leadership, there are more changes in government. Because the people are more inclined to be mad at the government.

Sure.

That is why Democrats need to regain trust and that only works with a candidate and party who is actually liked and trusted. Without that, there is actually only a P2025 style project to keep things stable and that shouldnt be the target.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying America doesn't need a trustworthy Democratic party/presidential candidate. I'm simply saying that demonstrably, consecutively, American voters have chosen the candidate/party that they feel will change the current negative situation they find themselves in. Hell, if you want to get technical, we're saying the same thing, because I'M saying they want the party that is different from the one that they view is responsible for their misfortune (meaning they lost trust in that party), and YOU'RE saying they need someone they can trust.

They obviously trust that the person they're switching their votes to now will provide different solutions to what came before.

 

[shionoro]

I'd need to know the context. My approval rating that I'd give to Kamala or Biden would be greater than what I'd give to Trump because I hate him. I don't doubt it's the same for most other Americans regardless of their political alignment.

For context: https://www.economist.com/interactive/trump-approval-tracker

Trump's popularity when he was elected a second time was higher than the first time around. First time you could say he was elected because Clinton was very unpopular, too. Second time that just wasn't the case.

They obviously trust that the person they're switching their votes to now will provide different solutions to what came before.

For me, it is the most important question. We are already looking at the situation that there might not even be another shot for democrats to get into office again via a fair election. And after they do, they will have to clean up Trump's messes, just like Starmer after Brexit and Tory governments. That will be insanely hard and if someone gets into office who governs by conventional means (meaning he is trying to navigate the situation without any fundamental change), he will fail. And I am sure that would be the last shot America ever had to remain a democracy then.

But a lot of leaders, including democrat ones, decide again and again for that kind of madness.

 

[kkck]

Well yeah, but I don't see how that counters anything I'm saying. I said people voted for Trump because they didn't like Biden and you're emphasizing how much the people didn't like Biden. What are we disagreeing about?

For the bolded, that's just demonstrably false, as proven by 2020. And the same thing that pushed people to Democrats in 2020 is happening today in 2025: Trump is ruining the lives of the everyday middle-class American with his tariff fuckery, the same way that his handling of Covid literally got thousands killed. People are sick of his idiocy to the point that even his sycophants are questioning if not outright chastizing him. I'd argue it's much worse this time around based on the fact that there are no Democrats around to blame (try as he might).

My point is, democrats as they are now aren't a way out of this, they are basically part of the problem. You can't have a functional government whose party's platform is basically undoing what the other did year after year after year. That's shithole country stuff. I know because I am from one. If you went back to a biden like democrat next term the most likely scenario is that the next republican in president will be worse than trump (unless trump is immortal). Biden wasn't a solution here, he was part of the problem and probably the most important cause of trump's return.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 14, 2025, Original Post Date: Apr 14, 2025 ---

Well, I guess the guy is more about standing for something, even if it's of some sort of personal cost to him (it already has, as in the eyes of Israel, someone born down the street from Columbia University where he's a student has a better chance of returning to wherever it is his parents/family are from). There's nothing disqualifying about what he's said or done and plenty of citizens in Trump's very party are the kinds of people more deserving of being accosted IMO.

But yeah the point is generally citizens rights don't trump basic human rights, even if discretion is involved.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 12, 2025, Original Post Date: Apr 12, 2025 ---

Didn't intend to get preachy since all of this stuff is self-evident and the discussion was more about his choices, but my point is this shouldn't be a choice in the first place. I forget if I knew where you went to school here, but going out of your way not to ruffle any feathers as a foreigner is "smart" enough in a sense because you're at the mercy of whatever backward people hold purchase over you. It's a bit different when someone is an Ivy League student in NYC and the federal government is just doing whatever the fuck they want in the name of stopping "antisemitism".

I mean, yeah, I know what we was trying to do. To me it's just not obvious that his rights as a visa holder would protect him at least in this case. There's no trial at play here to take a due process angle, just his visa and greencard being revoked by someone who has the authority to do so. A bit that surprised me here is that his wife is a US citizen and even then it all got revoked. There's a pretty good chance his family will be permanently broken, barring of course his wife joining him at whichever hole he gets deported to. Let alone the daunting process of getting a green card again, if he isn't barred from life from applying.

 

[shionoro]

I found this article very helpful in understanding Trump's actions and generally what is going on right now:

The rise of end times fascism | Naomi Klein and Astra Taylor

The governing ideology of the far right has become a monstrous, supremacist survivalism. Our task is to build a movement strong enough to stop them

www.theguardian.com

The fact that their profits are predicated on planetary devastation helps explain why do-gooder discourse among the powerful is giving way to open expressions of disdain for the idea that we owe each other anything by right of our shared humanity. Silicon Valley is done with altruism, effective or otherwise. Meta’s Mark Zuckerberg pines for a culture that celebrates “aggression”. Alex Karp, Thiel’s business partner at the surveillance firm Palantir Technologies, rebukes the “losing” “self-flagellation” of those who question American superiority and the benefits of autonomous weapons systems (and, by association, the lucrative military contracts that have made Karp’s vast fortune). Musk informs Joe Rogan that empathy is “the fundamental weakness of western civilization” and he vents, after failing to purchase a supreme court election in Wisconsin: “It increasingly appears that humanity is a biological bootloader for digital superintelligence.” Meaning we humans are nothing but grist for Grok, the AI service he owns. (He did tell us he was “dark Maga” – and he’s not the only one.)

 

[xi0]

I mean, yeah, I know what we was trying to do. To me it's just not obvious that his rights as a visa holder would protect him at least in this case. There's no trial at play here to take a due process angle, just his visa and greencard being revoked by someone who has the authority to do so. A bit that surprised me here is that his wife is a US citizen and even then it all got revoked. There's a pretty good chance his family will be permanently broken, barring of course his wife joining him at whichever hole he gets deported to. Let alone the daunting process of getting a green card again, if he isn't barred from life from applying.

My place in the discussion isn't arguing for or against whatever is legally justifiable, only what is the kind of norms we should expect from our government. This simply would not be happening to someone who wasn't muslim, brown, or dissenting with our government's stance. If this isn't something that wouldn't happen to citizens, then using it punitively to a foreigner just because there's some sort of arbitrary interpretation of due process is downright hitlerian. It's so beyond the pale that if he was actually charged with some sort of criminal act he'd most likely be afforded more rights than he has received.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2025, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2025 ---

Apparently, this is him and it just aired this past weekend on 60 Minutes





I'd wager there's nobody investigating and detaining any foreign members of Betar guilty of harassing people in the US though

 

[ninjabot]

My point is, democrats as they are now aren't a way out of this, they are basically part of the problem. You can't have a functional government whose party's platform is basically undoing what the other did year after year after year. That's shithole country stuff. I know because I am from one. If you went back to a biden like democrat next term the most likely scenario is that the next republican in president will be worse than trump (unless trump is immortal). Biden wasn't a solution here, he was part of the problem and probably the most important cause of trump's return.

Then America will be a shithole country (it's already going that way). In the current political system you can only vote for what you want, or against what you don't want. And fear is a much, much more powerful motivator than hope.

 

[xi0]

Then America will be a shithole country (it's already going that way). In the current political system you can only vote for what you want, or against what you don't want. And fear is a much, much more powerful motivator than hope.

In what way? When it comes to Republicans and why and what they generally vote for, I understand this argument.

In recent history when it comes to Democrats? How, exactly? Trump losing re-election is the only example of this being the case. We got 8 years of GWB despite how horrendous he was, and we got 8 years of Obama, and while you could say his campaign was a lie in most ways, people were not motivated to vote for him due to fear. You could make the argument that fear-based reaction is a factor in some midterm results, but when talking about presidential elections, it's simply not something to be counted on motivating people for whatever reason.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 15, 2025, Original Post Date: Apr 15, 2025 ---

All that to say, as much as it can make sense logically, counting on Democratic voters to be scared into being motivated to vote is not a winning strategy.

 

[kkck]

My place in the discussion isn't arguing for or against whatever is legally justifiable, only what is the kind of norms we should expect from our government. This simply would not be happening to someone who wasn't muslim, brown, or dissenting with our government's stance. If this isn't something that wouldn't happen to citizens, then using it punitively to a foreigner just because there's some sort of arbitrary interpretation of due process is downright hitlerian. It's so beyond the pale that if he was actually charged with some sort of criminal act he'd most likely be afforded more rights than he has received.

Norms? From this government? Clearly there isn't a limit. A couple hours ago I read something about trump looking into whether he can send US folk to prisons abroad. That said, on this case my interest was definitely different from yours (mostly the bit on whether he has any ground to fight back from, which in my view does not appear to be the case).

 

[shionoro]

Trump does not even act like he upholds the law anymore, even as far as the supreme court goes. This is a fascist, autocrat ruler and there is no denying it.

 

[ninjabot]

In what way? When it comes to Republicans and why and what they generally vote for, I understand this argument.

In all the ways that Americans (Republican or not) have demonstrated for us recently. No one ever says Trump or the Republican party gives them hope for a better America except for the actual MAGA zealots. Everyone that switched to voting Republican from Democrat just unfolds an accordion-style list of all the things they hate about Biden or the Democratic party (or the left in general) as justification for switching.

In recent history when it comes to Democrats? How, exactly? Trump losing re-election is the only example of this being the case. We got 8 years of GWB despite how horrendous he was, and we got 8 years of Obama, and while you could say his campaign was a lie in most ways, people were not motivated to vote for him due to fear. You could make the argument that fear-based reaction is a factor in some midterm results, but when talking about presidential elections, it's simply not something to be counted on motivating people for whatever reason.

Well specifically I'm talking about the novel times we find ourselves in now. That's why the bolded matters as these times didn't start until, and was brought about because of, the material conditions that made a Trump presidency possible. Being able to vote for what you want is a privilege reserved for people in more rational, sane times. Those times are long gone, and I'm not confident we'll get them back any time soon. So you rely on the only thing demonstrated to be reliable, because normal logic doesn't apply anymore.

I'm just updating my worldview as the world changes around me.

All that to say, as much as it can make sense logically, counting on Democratic voters to be scared into being motivated to vote is not a winning strategy.

I think it's more likely than some Democratic candidate magically saying all the right things and it causing both Republicans and Democrats to mobilize to give them the reigns.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 16, 2025, Original Post Date: Apr 16, 2025 ---

Trump does not even act like he upholds the law anymore, even as far as the supreme court goes. This is a fascist, autocrat ruler and there is no denying it.

Tyranny. Say it loud. Make it stick. That word is supposed to have weight. Weight enough to move Americans to act. And I'm counting on the action of a very specific kind of American to perform a very specific kind of act.

Huh? Why don't I do it? Because I'm a lover, not a fighter.

 

[kkck]

Welp, some time ago I believe I mentioned how one of the things I use as a sort of metric for how tyrannical a government is is how it treats its own citizens. Trump talking about potentially sending US criminals to foreign prisons... Yeah, you guys are fucked.

 

[ninjabot]

The first step toward un-fucking a situation is getting rid of whoever's fucking it up in the first place. Sometimes with extreme prejudice.