Shounen Bleach by Tite Kubo

[Holt]

I'd say ashwalen didn't work on Ichigo either because:
1). He's transcendent. In the sense that he was always a conglomerate of souls so ywach couldn't directly interact with him.
2.) His Quincy powers were hidden at the time so there was nothing to take.
3.) Maybe Ywach never tried to take his powers in the first place because he wasn't a Quincy. A Quincy soul is supposedly different from the other types (just like shinigami, hollow are also different from others), so perhaps Ashwalen only works on Quincy (whether pure or impure)
4.) Alternatively, ichigo might have been protected from something that could range from either White, His inner Ywach, Urahara, Masaki or Isshin's or perhaps all or an addition of one or two of the above.

Although ywach knew Ichigo was Quincy so its either he didn't try to take his powers or he couldn't. Basically.
Currently, I don't think there's enough info to judge which reason is right. All in due time I guess. Or maybe not.

 

[Fox666]

Going by Haschwalth, Ichigo being a Shinigami doesn't affect Auswählen:

 

[Holt]

Going by Haschwalth, Ichigo being a Shinigami doesn't affect Auswählen:

Perhaps. Well the initial ashwalen that ishida survived was stated to be for impure Quincy IIRC. Its natural that only Quincy were targeted seeing as ichigo having all the soul types is an unnatural occurrence. Though there might have been another reason. Or he was just overlooked.

Its like the ashwalen Ywach used after Nimaiya took down the RG. He only selected Quincy even though according to haschwalth, there should have been some shinigami involved in the process. Namely those that got their bankai stolen. Either ywach only chose Quincy or the hollowification pill corrupted and subsequently erased ywach's soul portions from the shinigami or maybe it was simply too dangerous to do so.

 

[NoOneInParticular]

Maybe Auswahlen only works on Quincy. With Shinigami who happen to be carrying a piece of his soul, it doesn't seem like they gain any power or abilities from it, but Auswahlen is the act of transferring power. In Shinigami there isn't any Quincy power present for him to transfer, which I guess is either because soul pieces and Quincy blood aren't the same thing, or because Quincy power can't manifest in Shinigami that way. Or maybe the Hollowfication pill stopped it from activating. When it comes to Yhwach getting back soul pieces it looks like the only way to do that is by killing the host or waiting for them to die.

 

[Fox666]

Ichigo gained some power from Yhwach soul. He could use Blut Vene, and his Zanpakuto spirit has the appearance of Yhwach.

 

[Holt]

Ichigo is an anomaly. Can't really use him as a measuring stick for others.

 

[NoOneInParticular]

Ichigo gained some power from Yhwach soul. He could use Blut Vene, and his Zanpakuto spirit has the appearance of Yhwach.

But that might all come from his Quincy blood, rather than a direct piece of soul. I had always thought they were the same thing, but I'm now wondering if being a Quincy is in the blood, whilst holding a piece of Yhwach's soul is another phenomenon altogether. Even if not, Yhwach just might not be able to take his soul from Shinigami at will like he can with Quincy, just because his soul doesn't do the same thing for a Shinigami it does for a Quincy or whatever the reason might be.

 

[kkck]

But that might all come from his Quincy blood, rather than a direct piece of soul. I had always thought they were the same thing, but I'm now wondering if being a Quincy is in the blood, whilst holding a piece of Yhwach's soul is another phenomenon altogether. Even if not, Yhwach just might not be able to take his soul from Shinigami at will like he can with Quincy, just because his soul doesn't do the same thing for a Shinigami it does for a Quincy or whatever the reason might be.

Having a piece of juhabach's soul should not be enough to get actual quincy powers IMO. Quincy powers are inherent to a specific type of soul. Juhabach is basically spreading his soul even to shinigami right now, it wouldn't be in his best interest to give his enemy their own quincy powers. Juhabach has the ability to retrieve the piece of souls so it sounds kinda unlikely that they would fuse with the target of the soul in the same context as with hollowification. Ultimately that should cause soul suicide in at least some cases. Although perhaps not considering arrancar already necessarily have quincy bits and shinigami should be able to balance itself with quincy without adding human or hollow souls to the next.

 

[NoOneInParticular]

Having a piece of juhabach's soul should not be enough to get actual quincy powers IMO. Quincy powers are inherent to a specific type of soul. Juhabach is basically spreading his soul even to shinigami right now, it wouldn't be in his best interest to give his enemy their own quincy powers. Juhabach has the ability to retrieve the piece of souls so it sounds kinda unlikely that they would fuse with the target of the soul in the same context as with hollowification. Ultimately that should cause soul suicide in at least some cases. Although perhaps not considering arrancar already necessarily have quincy bits and shinigami should be able to balance itself with quincy without adding human or hollow souls to the next.

That's what I'm starting to think, that having a piece of his soul =/= having Quincy power and being a Quincy comes only from the genes. Although there is still the question of how that Arrancar had Quincy-like powers. But the other thing is that receiving a piece of Yhwach's soul was supposed to give the host whatever they were missing and heal them and all that, which is probably the case for the SR like As Nodt who was on death's door before Yhwach lettered him up, but in the Shinigami's case it doesn't look like it. They don't seem to be any stronger because of it. Although on second thought, maybe it's why they did better in the second invasion than the first.

I'm not even sure how the Shinigami ended up with his soul. I guess the ones who got their Bankai stolen got them back with a piece of soul attached, but Haschwalth made it sound like Yhwach dispersed his soul all over the place. If he can just do it remotely that's pretty major.

 

[Starrked]

Has anyone thought about whether or not the Soul King possesses the powers of all the souls? Meaning that he is what Ichigo is, a transcendental being that can use quincy, hollow, shinigami, and human/fullbring powers.

 

[Holt]

Fullbring isn't a type of soul on its own if I'm not mistaken. AFAIK, Hollow, shinigami, Quincy and human are the only existing types. Fullbring is human and hollow I think.

I do believe SK is transcendental. Aizen did look more like him when he evolved.
Dunno about SK possessing all the types of souls but its quite plausible.
Based on Ywach calling him father and stating that SK has the ability to see the future like ywach (a Quincy), I think its proof he does have Quincy to an extent. Or perhaps it might be more accurate to say Quincy indirectly came from him (assuming he really is ywach's father).

Funny enough, we don't really have something that ties him to being a shinigami. We just know he presides over them. Also nothing to tie him to hollow or human as well. He could simply be shinigami and Quincy. I don't think having those two results in soul suicide. I'm not sure if those rules would apply to the SK though.
I think we can assume he is transcendental or atleast something different from your basic type of soul.

 

[Johaan]

Re: Bleach 614 Discussion/ 615 Predictions

Few Questions for people who follow the manga more closely:

A) Does Kyoraku being named Head Captain mean he has somehow inherited access to the Oken, thus allowing passage to him and possible Aizen straight to the Soul King? (Also possibly enabling Aizen to be trolling Ywach).

B) Have the Gates of Hell ever been referenced in the manga again after Chapter 12? Is it possible that the SK's purpose was to establish a "purgatory" where souls that became hollows have a chance for redemption (in the form of Hueco Mundo), before ultimate judgement? Where as Saintly looking Quincy's believe souls that get corrupted into hollows deserve no such thing and get sent straight to hell? I don't think Ywach wants the destruction of existence itself, I think he wants the Quincy system of Hell or else when it comes to the afterlife to rule. And absolute power and stuff too I guess. There was too much story and structure developed to have "the Quincy way" be merely a 1,000 year old ploy of a megalomaniac to gain ultimate power IMO.

C) Could the baby that couldn't feel, talk, hear etc.. that turned out to be Ywach be "in tune" with his "father" the SK ? I mean it was stated that the SK woke up a few chapters after the SR invention. Maybe it was more than a mere morning wake up. Maybe it was a centuries long slumber. This could be shot down if the chapter in which Ichigo was told the SK was interested in him preceded the "he woke up" chapter.

 

[Holt]

A) Does Kyoraku being named Head Captain mean he has somehow inherited access to the Oken, thus allowing passage to him and possible Aizen straight to the Soul King? (Also possibly enabling Aizen to be trolling Ywach).

He is entitled to an Oken as CC. Problem is Yama apparently died with the knowledge of the previous one. I'd assume that the RG either knew where that one was and passed the information to Kyoraku or they left one for him. I think he should have one though.

There's also that time he asked Nanao and Okiba if they should head to Royal realm which alludes to him having a way of getting there (at the time, there was no method for them to have been able to).

B) Have the Gates of Hell ever been referenced in the manga again after Chapter 12? Is it possible that the SK's purpose was to establish a "purgatory" where souls that became hollows have a chance for redemption (in the form of Hueco Mundo), before ultimate judgement? Where as Saintly looking Quincy's believe souls that get corrupted into hollows deserve no such thing and get sent straight to hell? I don't think Ywach wants the destruction of existence itself, I think he wants the Quincy system of Hell or else when it comes to the afterlife to rule. And absolute power and stuff too I guess. There was too much story and structure developed to have "the Quincy way" be merely a 1,000 year old ploy of a megalomaniac to gain ultimate power IMO.

That's a pretty interesting take on it. Well, Ywach hasn't been fleshed out enough for us to understand his motives. We know what he wants to do but there's the why.

C) Could the baby that couldn't feel, talk, hear etc.. that turned out to be Ywach be "in tune" with his "father" the SK ? I mean it was stated that the SK woke up a few chapters after the SR invention. Maybe it was more than a mere morning wake up. Maybe it was a centuries long slumber. This could be shot down if the chapter in which Ichigo was told the SK was interested in him preceded the "he woke up" chapter.

Well, the SK is even less fleshed out than Ywach.
We practically don't know anything about him. The whole situatuon is so muddled up at the moment. Things are being thrown around every chapter but there's no clear take on anything. We can't really evaluate the situation at the moment so its mostly speculation.

I think its been mentioned before that the SK sleeps a lot. Like almost all the time so there's that I guess.

 

[mrsticky005]

I was thinking about something...

Ichibei was OBLIERATED by Yhwach. There was NO QUESTION he was dead.
And yet...He's alive now. Why? Because Ichigo responded to his disembodied voice and called his name.

I have no idea how that works but it did. You would think that a dead Ichibei wouldn't HAVE a voice. But it does.

So a thought...do you think that perhaps even if a soul reaper's body is destroyed that maybe their mind remains in a state like Ichibei's?

Is complete Hollowification true death in Bleach? The loss of one's own identity?

 

[Holt]

I was thinking about something...

Ichibei was OBLIERATED by Yhwach. There was NO QUESTION he was dead.
And yet...He's alive now. Why? Because Ichigo responded to his disembodied voice and called his name.

I have no idea how that works but it did. You would think that a dead Ichibei wouldn't HAVE a voice. But it does.

So a thought...do you think that perhaps even if a soul reaper's body is destroyed that maybe their mind remains in a state like Ichibei's?

Is complete Hollowification true death in Bleach? The loss of one's own identity?

I think Ichibei is a bit different. His abilities centers around names so it makes sense he could revive that way. The voice was in Ichigo's head though.

I don't think their mind just remains. While I don't understand how ichibei could still communicate (perhaps because of some residual reiatsu?), I'm quite sure they don't remain like that. Didn't Ichibei even say "that was close" and even mentioned if Ichigo hadn't come, he wouldn't have been saved thus.

I think its just the lingering reiatsu that remains for a while but ultimately they still die. Including their consciousness and all.
(Or maybe its some benefit of being an RG~Oken comprised).

Shinigami don't typically turn into hollows though. Its always a unique process that triggers that.
So its an unnatural phenomenon and shouldn't be exactly seen/counted as a common occurrence.

Also Tousen supposedly underwent a complete hollowfication but he didn't lose his identity.Ditto for the vizards and Ichigo.

I don't think there's any real death. The balance of the world that the shinigami hamper on is about this. Souls generally go through the different worlds (HM, SS, Human) in the corresponding order when they die thus a complete cycle. I think the only distinction was Quincy and hollow where the former completely erases the existence of hollow thus breaking the balance. (Or so we were told).

 

[kkck]

Re: Bleach 614 Discussion/ 615 Predictions

Few Questions for people who follow the manga more closely:

A) Does Kyoraku being named Head Captain mean he has somehow inherited access to the Oken, thus allowing passage to him and possible Aizen straight to the Soul King? (Also possibly enabling Aizen to be trolling Ywach).

B) Have the Gates of Hell ever been referenced in the manga again after Chapter 12? Is it possible that the SK's purpose was to establish a "purgatory" where souls that became hollows have a chance for redemption (in the form of Hueco Mundo), before ultimate judgement? Where as Saintly looking Quincy's believe souls that get corrupted into hollows deserve no such thing and get sent straight to hell? I don't think Ywach wants the destruction of existence itself, I think he wants the Quincy system of Hell or else when it comes to the afterlife to rule. And absolute power and stuff too I guess. There was too much story and structure developed to have "the Quincy way" be merely a 1,000 year old ploy of a megalomaniac to gain ultimate power IMO.

C) Could the baby that couldn't feel, talk, hear etc.. that turned out to be Ywach be "in tune" with his "father" the SK ? I mean it was stated that the SK woke up a few chapters after the SR invention. Maybe it was more than a mere morning wake up. Maybe it was a centuries long slumber. This could be shot down if the chapter in which Ichigo was told the SK was interested in him preceded the "he woke up" chapter.

Well, what the manga said about that is that the CC is the only one aware of the location of an ouken. However as the manga has never actually elaborated on this it can be interpreted in god knows how many ways and each would be entirely speculation and as valid as the one before. It could mean there is a key somewhere which the gotei could use in an emergency or it could mean that yamamoto is the only one in SS who knew that the royals themselves are turned into royal keys (although ichibei disclosed this too liberally for it to be a secret). The issue with there being a key to which yamamoto had access to is that , well, it would be sort of a mutilated limb. Which is not much of an issue as it is disturbing. Anyways, the issue seems to be that the location was passed down via words. And yamamoto died before he could pass the location to shunsui. The only alternative would be that shunsui... guesses the location of the ouken that yamamoto might have known about.

Hell has not been mentioned other than in the movie and the omake chapter for it. It seems like the king was literally holding the world together, not just a part. My crackpot theory is that all the worlds the manga has shown used to at some point be a single one and that the soul king split them into separate realms thus becoming the god of the world.

I am not sure if I get what you mean by in tune but I wouldn't be surprised if the state the current soul king is in has something to do with what juhabach went through as a child. If that is the case then it means that either he stopped sharing his soul around or that he shared it and hasn't gotten the pieces back. Juhabach made the point that if his A got back before the time he would reclaim all the letters. Perhaps if the king awakens at the wrong time he will reclaim his pieces of soul too... from every soul everywhere. Thus killing everything. Maybe we will soon see the kng properly awake.

 

[Holt]

Re: Bleach 614 Discussion/ 615 Predictions

My crackpot theory is that all the worlds the manga has shown used to at some point be a single one and that the soul king split them into separate realms thus becoming the god of the world.

I thought that back against aizen, Urahara specified "Soul Society". Plus when he talken with Hiyori, he said the same thing.
What I think is, the SK literally keeps SS intact. In other words, its destroyed if he's killed. I think the whole world chaos thing is directly as a result of this. The world is apparently in a balance of souls in the different worlds. Going by that, SS houses thousands if not millions of shinigami. SS being destroyed would mean these souls being destroyed or perhaps they would be pushed into the other worlds which would destroy the balance and thus bring chaos. That way, the death of the SK has a massive impact even though he actually only keeps SS together as far as we know.

 

[NoOneInParticular]

Re: Bleach 614 Discussion/ 615 Predictions

Well, what the manga said about that is that the CC is the only one aware of the location of an ouken. However as the manga has never actually elaborated on this it can be interpreted in god knows how many ways and each would be entirely speculation and as valid as the one before. It could mean there is a key somewhere which the gotei could use in an emergency or it could mean that yamamoto is the only one in SS who knew that the royals themselves are turned into royal keys (although ichibei disclosed this too liberally for it to be a secret). The issue with there being a key to which yamamoto had access to is that , well, it would be sort of a mutilated limb. Which is not much of an issue as it is disturbing. Anyways, the issue seems to be that the location was passed down via words. And yamamoto died before he could pass the location to shunsui. The only alternative would be that shunsui... guesses the location of the ouken that yamamoto might have known about.

Hell has not been mentioned other than in the movie and the omake chapter for it. It seems like the king was literally holding the world together, not just a part. My crackpot theory is that all the worlds the manga has shown used to at some point be a single one and that the soul king split them into separate realms thus becoming the god of the world.

I am not sure if I get what you mean by in tune but I wouldn't be surprised if the state the current soul king is in has something to do with what juhabach went through as a child. If that is the case then it means that either he stopped sharing his soul around or that he shared it and hasn't gotten the pieces back. Juhabach made the point that if his A got back before the time he would reclaim all the letters. Perhaps if the king awakens at the wrong time he will reclaim his pieces of soul too... from every soul everywhere. Thus killing everything. Maybe we will soon see the kng properly awake.

I had some similar ideas interestingly. It's strange for the Soul King to have certain abilities like transforming chosen Shinigami's flesh into the Oken, and to be the one thing holding the world together (or apart, another thought I had as well), yet have no ability to defend himself at all. Like Yhwach, he seems to have eyes with multiple irises and it's implied he can see the future as well, so maybe in order to have his eyes 'open' he had to sacrifice some other aspect of his power to keep himself from absorbing all other souls. Or otherwise his power's all tied up in splitting the worlds apart. Maybe the barriers between worlds are the Soul King's power dispersed all around, and if he takes them back into himself they mash back together into one.

 

[Johaan]

Re: Bleach 614 Discussion/ 615 Predictions

A few questions/observations

Started watching the anime from start to finish, and I am finding some interesting comparisons which may have nothing to do with each other but I just figured they might make for interesting discussion:

1. When Ichigo got turned into a Soul Reaper after losing the powers loaned by Rukia, Urahara told him "If you don't want to become a hollow, then become a Soul Reaper", after Tessai cut his soul chain.
Could this condition have been a result of Ichigo's bloodline? Or perhaps Urahara's method for training Ichigo? Or do all souls that aren't sent to the SS with the aid of a Soul Reaper's Konso have that Soul Reaper/Hollow option?

2. Ichigo constantly gets called "King" in his inner world when talking to his Zanpakuto. In the first episodes when he's in the process of turning into a hollow / dying for real, Zangetsu tells him that he needs to find his soul reaper powers within himself or else the inner world will crumble and he will become a hollow. Could there be a similarity to the SK and his death meaning the death of all worlds?

3. The Soul Reapers tell all the souls that they perform Konso on, that the Soul Society is a much nicer place. Yet there are districts that look stricken with poverty. There's crime, and there's imbalance. It certainly doesn't fit the traditional "Heaven" criteria. We know there's a Hell from the very first chapters, which was never mentioned again, there's the Human World, Hueco Mundo, Soul Society with it's Royal Palace. Could there be a Heaven as well? Or is the Royal Palace supposed to be that Heaven?

4. Some of the 13 Squads in the early episodes looked like a bunch of bullies and misfits. Like Mayuri sacrificing other Soul Reapers in order to capture/kill Uryu and Orihime. There's the mention that Unohana used to be a murderer. And I don't recall if this was cannon or not , but somewhere it was stated that the earliest incarnation of the 13th squads were just a bunch of murderous thugs. For all the talk of Justice, the 13th squads seem to be more preoccupied with keeping an imperfect soul society in-tact, through the monitoring of the Human World, rather than keeping the peace within the Soul Society itself.

5. I find it interesting that Urahara and Aizen both have a vested interest in the Hogyoku, in Ichigo, both had seen the Soul King when only a select few ever had, both constructed domed daylight complexes.

6. What was it that made Aizen immortal. The Hogyoku? I missed that part. I only read where his immortality was acknowledged, but never the part where he attained it.

 

[Holt]

Re: Bleach 614 Discussion/ 615 Predictions

1. When Ichigo got turned into a Soul Reaper after losing the powers loaned by Rukia, Urahara told him "If you don't want to become a hollow, then become a Soul Reaper", after Tessai cut his soul chain.
Could this condition have been a result of Ichigo's bloodline? Or perhaps Urahara's method for training Ichigo? Or do all souls that aren't sent to the SS with the aid of a Soul Reaper's Konso have that Soul Reaper/Hollow option?

Nah, its normal. Ichigo was a 'plus' at the time due to the chain. The hole urahara threw ichigo into was specialized to make the chain corrode much faster than usual, however, if the chain fully corrodes, then a plus becomes a hollow.

2. Ichigo constantly gets called "King" in his inner world when talking to his Zanpakuto. In the first episodes when he's in the process of turning into a hollow / dying for real, Zangetsu tells him that he needs to find his soul reaper powers within himself or else the inner world will crumble and he will become a hollow. Could there be a similarity to the SK and his death meaning the death of all worlds?

Doubt it. There's hardly any connection there. The inner world of a shinigami embodies their power and where they converse with the zan. Makes perfect sense for it to crumble when they become hollow.

3. The Soul Reapers tell all the souls that they perform Konso on, that the Soul Society is a much nicer place. Yet there are districts that look stricken with poverty. There's crime, and there's imbalance. It certainly doesn't fit the traditional "Heaven" criteria. We know there's a Hell from the very first chapters, which was never mentioned again, there's the Human World, Hueco Mundo, Soul Society with it's Royal Palace. Could there be a Heaven as well? Or is the Royal Palace supposed to be that Heaven?

Royal palace can't be heaven because its off limits to practically everyone. I doubt a regular soul can even survive there.

6. What was it that made Aizen immortal. The Hogyoku? I missed that part. I only read where his immortality was acknowledged, but never the part where he attained it.

Yeah, it was the hogyoku.