Shounen Bleach by Tite Kubo

[Delbi]

Let me rephrase that, is not a lack of character as if he were "too weak to go for a killing", I think is not in Ichigo to just go and kill someone, you could say he is kinda like Goku in DB, Naruto or almost every shonen MC, they are not bad guys the can kick the enemy's rear but it is not in them to just "finish off" the enemy. After the battle with Aizen Ichigo give the battle some thought. That I believed defined him a little bit as a character, Ichigo is not a bad guy and he is not driven by a strong killing intent. To be honest I would expect Ichigo to behead Yhwach just because of the fact that he was involved in Masaki's death, but will he actually do that?, is not in him I believe. Now Ishida... that's another story

Ichigo isn't like Naruto and Goku in the sense that he would go to absurd lengths not to kill someone, he proved that much when he cut down Ginjo. Ichigo just doesn't kill people for the sake of killing them. He showed plenty of killer intent to kill Aizen but in the end simply couldn't do it because Aizen was immortal.

Ichigo is like Naruto and Goku in the sense that he has a softer side and also lives by some sort of honor code, we saw this at the end of his fight with Ulquiorra. But he certainly will kill when necessary whereas Naruto won't do that and Goku won't do it until the last possible second.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 23, 2016, Original Post Date: Mar 23, 2016 ---

 

[NoOneInParticular]

This talk of Ichigo being a killer or not actually reminded me of this time when he was rushing to fight Ulquiorra, and he just casually lopped the heads off these two nameless Arrancar here... http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-chapter-330-page-6.html

I remember being surprised that he just offed Ginjo the way he did, but looking back I'm not sure why. He's been ready to kill people as far back as SS. The impression I get (going by memories off the top of my head) is that he likes to beat people into submission when he takes an interest in them (like Grimmjow or Ulquiorra), but he'll kill them... basically when he feels like it. If they push him too far, or I guess when he's just in a killin' mood. But then when it comes to Hollows he is technically purifying them. In the case of Menos Arrancar I'm not actually sure. I guess he knew Ginjo would end up in SS, but even so - he literally murdered him. Won't judge him on Aizen, the guy needed to go. He was in the process of trying to initiate a massacre in Ichigo's hometown.

Anyway, when he met Yhwach last time, the latter made the point that Ichigo couldn't even use the word kill in regards to the guy who offed his own mother. Could've just been a taunt, but he also made the claim that Ichigo's will is tied to his own. How accurate that can be I'm not sure, since Bazz-B and co were out to kill Yhwach, and they were Quincy, same for Uryu. But Yhwach also took control of Ichigo with his sword, so maybe he has other ways of imposing his will on those with Quincy blood.

 

[Taorero]

Anyway, when he met Yhwach last time, the latter made the point that Ichigo couldn't even use the word kill in regards to the guy who offed his own mother. Could've just been a taunt, but he also made the claim that Ichigo's will is tied to his own. How accurate that can be I'm not sure, since Bazz-B and co were out to kill Yhwach, and they were Quincy, same for Uryu. But Yhwach also took control of Ichigo with his sword, so maybe he has other ways of imposing his will on those with Quincy blood.

For the future it might be interesting to see how Ichigo intends to confront Yhwach, if we are going to see the same Ichigo that yells cuz he doesn't understand that would be pretty boring (at least for me). I do expect Ichigo to ask some questions to Yhwach and to be kin to the idea of talking to Yhwach to show him how (in Ichigo's view) he is wrong.

Regarding the thing with the sword and the soul king, I believe Yh said something about his Quincy blood reacting against the SK or something like that I can't remember right now, but when I read I was like WTF?, the SK is just popping one question after the other. And I don't think we are gonna get those answer any time soon. We are probably going to continue with Gerard's Battle Royale... will be interesting to see Toshiro, Byakuya and Kenpachi struggling a little bit and wait to see who's gonna go bankai first... Byakuya with his powered-up bankai or Kenpachi with his I-dont-know-how-you-get-it bankai

 

[reesestl]

This talk of Ichigo being a killer or not actually reminded me of this time when he was rushing to fight Ulquiorra, and he just casually lopped the heads off these two nameless Arrancar here... http://www.mangastream.to/bleach-chapter-330-page-6.html

But then when it comes to Hollows he is technically purifying them. In the case of Menos Arrancar I'm not actually sure.

Its the same purification for Arrancars. The difference b/w hollows and Arrancars is the number of hollows that go on to make one Arrancar.

How is this a matter of how we see it? Ichigo is definitely not someone who enjoys killing but he has never hesitated to actually try (which in hindsight is actually very disturbing). Ichigo as a matter of fact tried to kill everyone he fought against during the SS arc. There was never any indication that he was holding back or used strikes which were not deathblows.

I don't know how you differentiate b/w holding back and not. It is given that strong enemies wouldn't die of a single blow anyway. In fact he treated Ikkaku after the fight. The decision whether to kill or not comes after one has defeated the enemy or is clearly overpowering the enemy. In an equal battle holding back is suicidal. Take Kenpachi's example, he never holds back but doesn't finish his enemies either!
I don't think Ichigo has a revengeful nature.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 24, 2016, Original Post Date: Mar 24, 2016 ---

Ichigo isn't like Naruto and Goku in the sense that he would go to absurd lengths not to kill someone, he proved that much when he cut down Ginjo.

Whether or not Naruto kills someone, there is really no difference if he has no qualms about others finishing the job for him. In fact, that is somehow worse. On the top of my head, I remember Kakashi finishing the guy with 4 hearts after Naruto used Rasen-shuriken on him.

 

[ninjabot]

Nah, Ichigo isn't a killer.

Hollows don't count, because you only cleanse them, not kill them. And I don't think he was going for a killing blow against Ginjo. Ginjo just died. It's not like he went for his vitals or anything, he did the exact same thing he always does: put all his power into an attack and then swing a nondescript slash from collar bone to hip at an angle. This time he was fighting a plain old human though so... he wasn't quite as hardy. Of course there's always the possibility that he did try to kill him but only because he knew it's what Ginjou sought. He did have a terribly somber look on his face. That's the only thing that makes sense because he killed the one opponent he had that actually didn't need to die. I mean, all the SS fights were just to get by to save Rukia, so they didn't need to die. Grimmjow was just a fight about pride. Ulqiorra was a fight to save Orihime. Ichigo hasn't been in any fights that were straight up battles where he absolutely had to kill to survive.

Whether or not Naruto kills someone, there is really no difference if he has no qualms about others finishing the job for him. In fact, that is somehow worse. On the top of my head, I remember Kakashi finishing the guy with 4 hearts after Naruto used Rasen-shuriken on him.

Even worse: Naruto killed a guy who was kidnapped and turned into a fake Itachi. Once they found out, he had literally no reaction to the fact that he'd just murdered an innocent person. None.

 

[kkck]

I don't know how you differentiate b/w holding back and not. It is given that strong enemies wouldn't die of a single blow anyway. In fact he treated Ikkaku after the fight. The decision whether to kill or not comes after one has defeated the enemy or is clearly overpowering the enemy. In an equal battle holding back is suicidal. Take Kenpachi's example, he never holds back but doesn't finish his enemies either!
I don't think Ichigo has a revengeful nature.

I disagree with that. It's one thing to be willing to deal a decisive blow on an enemy while you are in the middle of a battle, which ichigo is more than willing to do, and it is another to deal a fatal blow on an enemy who has already been defeated, which ichigo has never done. Kenpachi is the same way. He is willing to finish of his enemies while in the heat of battle. He would butcher them with a smile (as he did to nnoitora and unohana). But for whatever reason he does not finish off enemies which are already defeated. I am not suggesting either is holding back, if anything my point has been that ichigo (and now kenpachi) go at it with the intention to absolutely end their enemies. Their enemies survived not because ichigo or kenpachi weren't going for the kill but simply because of their own innate resilience which allowed them to survive potentially deadly blows. Take the blow which defeated ginjo for instance. It wasn't more severe or different from the blow which defeated ikkaku or renji. However ginjo died while ikkaku and renji didn't. Had any of them died ichigo would not have felt a shred of remorse, he would have moved on the same as when he killed ginjo. Had ginjo survived ichigo would have been best buddy with him as he is with ikkaku and renji. Ichigo's hesitation in battle has never related to him not being willing to kill. His fears usually come around to his insecurities regarding being able to win his battles.... Ichigo is a natural born killer.

 

[sameel]

When ichigo first got his powers, urahara trained him with that small girl. When attacking, he was taught by urahara to attack with the intent to kill or be killed. So yeah ichigo always goes for the kill. Killing isn't a big deal in bleach I think because of the concept of after life.

 

[Holt]

Well I doubt Ichigo actively considers killing or not killing. His purpose is to defeat the opponent and he wouldn't hold back in that regard.
Whenever Ichigo hold back in battles, it's little to do with him not wanting to kill itself but rather various insecurities or being unsure. For Bach, I think the primary problem is that he's too attached to Zangetsu and finding out that Zangetsu is Bach made him uncertain. When Ichigo arrived in SS during the invasion he only had one thing on his mind: Murder. He was going to slaughter Bach. He just wasn't able to.

 

[kkck]

Well I doubt Ichigo actively considers killing or not killing. His purpose is to defeat the opponent and he wouldn't hold back in that regard.
Whenever Ichigo hold back in battles, it's little to do with him not wanting to kill itself but rather various insecurities or being unsure. For Bach, I think the primary problem is that he's too attached to Zangetsu and finding out that Zangetsu is Bach made him uncertain. When Ichigo arrived in SS during the invasion he only had one thing on his mind: Murder. He was going to slaughter Bach. He just wasn't able to.

Would that make much of a difference though? The implication would be that ichigo is indifferent to killing at best, rather than him consciously deciding to kill his enemy... In the end the situation is that he is going full force and the enemy surviving is a matter of chance.

 

[Holt]

Would that make much of a difference though? The implication would be that ichigo is indifferent to killing at best, rather than him consciously deciding to kill his enemy... In the end the situation is that he is going full force and the enemy surviving is a matter of chance.

Well yeah, that was my point..

 

[Taorero]

Well I doubt Ichigo actively considers killing or not killing. His purpose is to defeat the opponent and he wouldn't hold back in that regard.
Whenever Ichigo hold back in battles, it's little to do with him not wanting to kill itself but rather various insecurities or being unsure. For Bach, I think the primary problem is that he's too attached to Zangetsu and finding out that Zangetsu is Bach made him uncertain. When Ichigo arrived in SS during the invasion he only had one thing on his mind: Murder. He was going to slaughter Bach. He just wasn't able to.

Yeap definitely back when he return to SS he looked like a badass with only Murder in his mind, his friends were being attacked by this unknown force and he was coming with revenge written all over. However after that exchange with Fakegetsu it made me wonder how is Ichigo going to confront Yhwach, he formed a bond with his sword and he clearly said that they were both Zangetsu, both Yhwach younger self and Whitey. Of course because of this bond Ichigo might understand Yhwach better than Yhwach himself and come up with a crazy conclusion when fighting Yhwach. However I still believe the final blow might be delivered by Ishida or maybe someone else

 

[kkck]

Mayuri-Ishida rap battle!

 

[reesestl]

This comment is meant for everyone discussing Ichigo's morality. I only want to make a point in the context of him being compared with MCs like Goku,Naruto or (lets say even) Luffy. I am not sure how coherent I will sound, but will give it a try...XD
The fighting style in the anime itself puts some restrictions on character's morality. What I mean is, in an anime where the characters are fighting using hand-to-hand combat or some magic it is easy to show a good fight without killing the opponent. But, a sword is a sharp instrument meant to cut. It meant to inflict damage not by direct force or some sorcery but by severing body parts. So, one cannot have good fighting choreography involving swords where the characters have compunctions about killing. ANd you have to admit, Bleach swordplay is quite good. One can do it Himura Kenshin style, but I much prefer this one. SO, in a way its unfair to compare him with these characters.

Next thing, I have always felt that Ichigo had a lot of compassion who did what's needed but doesn't necessarily enjoy the violence per say like Goku or Natsu. So I much prefer him to someone like Goku, who has repeatedly put the earth on danger just so that he gets to fight or Natsu who is always looking for a fight. He is naturally kind but doesn't hesitate to beat the villains up if needed. His fear is not so much about not winning the battle but failing to protect the ppl around him. In that sense, he is not a natural born killer.

 

[kkck]

This comment is meant for everyone discussing Ichigo's morality. I only want to make a point in the context of him being compared with MCs like Goku,Naruto or (lets say even) Luffy. I am not sure how coherent I will sound, but will give it a try...XD
The fighting style in the anime itself puts some restrictions on character's morality. What I mean is, in an anime where the characters are fighting using hand-to-hand combat or some magic it is easy to show a good fight without killing the opponent. But, a sword is a sharp instrument meant to cut. It meant to inflict damage not by direct force or some sorcery but by severing body parts. So, one cannot have good fighting choreography involving swords where the characters have compunctions about killing. ANd you have to admit, Bleach swordplay is quite good. One can do it Himura Kenshin style, but I much prefer this one. SO, in a way its unfair to compare him with these characters.

Next thing, I have always felt that Ichigo had a lot of compassion who did what's needed but doesn't necessarily enjoy the violence per say like Goku or Natsu. So I much prefer him to someone like Goku, who has repeatedly put the earth on danger just so that he gets to fight or Natsu who is always looking for a fight. He is naturally kind but doesn't hesitate to beat the villains up if needed. His fear is not so much about not winning the battle but failing to protect the ppl around him. In that sense, he is not a natural born killer.

How do you conclude ichigo is not a natural born killer from the bold part? I don't see a relationship there as it does not involve ichigo's willingness or lack of willingness to straight up kill someone.

 

[reesestl]

How do you conclude ichigo is not a natural born killer from the bold part? I don't see a relationship there as it does not involve ichigo's willingness or lack of willingness to straight up kill someone.

In the sense that killing is not the primary motive. In alternative world which was fully safe, he wouldn't go around killing or even looking for a fight. A natural born killer must enjoy the violence itself, no?

 

[kkck]

In the sense that killing is not the primary motive. In alternative world which was fully safe, he wouldn't go around killing or even looking for a fight. A natural born killer must enjoy the violence itself, no?

Well, lets take your original point:

His fear is not so much about not winning the battle but failing to protect the ppl around him."..."

Between the quotations you could write something like "So cheesecake isn't his favorite dessert" and it would be about as valid as the conclusion you wrote. There isn't a correlation there.... Now you are bringing up motive even though your point was originally about his fears. I don't see any logical relationship between the points you bring up and your conclusions.

In the end the deciding factor here is that ichigo has never really hesitated to kill anyone. He has tried to kill virtually every enemy he has fought. As for the bold part, I would answer "no", a natural born killer does not necessarily enjoy violence. Ichigo didn't have to adjust to the idea of killing as far as we saw nor has ever shown any visible remorse or trauma from all the fighting he has been it. Sure, he isn't straight up bloodthirsty but we have precisely zero reason to think ichigo would hesitate to kill an enemy if the situation called to it. As a matter of fact, he hasn't.

 

[reesestl]

Well, lets take your original point:

Between the quotations you could write something like "So cheesecake isn't his favorite dessert" and it would be about as valid as the conclusion you wrote. There isn't a correlation there.... Now you are bringing up motive even though your point was originally about his fears. I don't see any logical relationship between the points you bring up and your conclusions.

Motives is a separate but related point. The fear thing was a response to your original statement about his fear of insecurities.

Ichigo's hesitation in battle has never related to him not being willing to kill. His fears usually come around to his insecurities regarding being able to win his battles..

Fear or insecurity of losing will be the primary occupation of someone who is in it for the fight itself. So, if the consequence of a fight has nothing to do with protecting a loved one or making him stronger for that he will be not have that fear.

I think we first need to have a common meaning of a natural born killer. Someone is naturally good at something when they enjoy it. There is a difference b/w enjoying it and not hesitating when necessary. So, on one hand, there is the guy who just likes to fight or beat people up or who is a vigilante for the label or the thrill, like the heroes in One-punch Man; on the other hand is someone like Batman who do it without hesitation because it is necessary. For you non-hesitance is the main thing. For me it has to be along with a particular pleasure from killing. Remorse, he has no reason for. At the end he has killed only few, and I don't see any reason trauma for violence mostly against Hollows.
,

 

[NoOneInParticular]

Its the same purification for Arrancars. The difference b/w hollows and Arrancars is the number of hollows that go on to make one Arrancar.

That's kind of what I thought. Actually being made up of multiple Hollows is specific to Menos, remember Grand Fisher who was just a normal Hollow, albeit a powerful one, got made into an Arrancar. But yeah, the way I imagine it is that advanced Menos (Adjuchas and VL and some Gillians) are the ones where one individual Hollow was strong enough to take over. So I guess that is the one that gets purified and sent to SS. I'd assume all the Hollows it ate that became a part of it are gone forever as soon as they're eaten, and they must be removed from the whole cycle of souls. Well, that's my speculation anyway. I guess it's also possible that every Hollow inside gets purified. I wonder about standard Gillians where no one Hollow's identity survives as well...

 

[kkck]

Motives is a separate but related point. The fear thing was a response to your original statement about his fear of insecurities.

Fear or insecurity of losing will be the primary occupation of someone who is in it for the fight itself. So, if the consequence of a fight has nothing to do with protecting a loved one or making him stronger for that he will be not have that fear.

I think we first need to have a common meaning of a natural born killer. Someone is naturally good at something when they enjoy it. There is a difference b/w enjoying it and not hesitating when necessary. So, on one hand, there is the guy who just likes to fight or beat people up or who is a vigilante for the label or the thrill, like the heroes in One-punch Man; on the other hand is someone like Batman who do it without hesitation because it is necessary. For you non-hesitance is the main thing. For me it has to be along with a particular pleasure from killing. Remorse, he has no reason for. At the end he has killed only few, and I don't see any reason trauma for violence mostly against Hollows.
,

Yeah but my point was that ichigo's insecurities were about him being afraid of failing. Which then you restated. And then somehow concluded it proved ichigo was not a natural born killer.

I don't think ichigo needs to enjoy killing to be a natural born killer. Anyways, my point originally was about ichigo's willingness to kill in response to the idea that ichigo is unwilling to kill. Which as far as I can tell is objectively wrong because everything so far suggests ichigo is more than willing to end the life of his enemies (because he has gone for the kill in the vast majority if not all of his fights) and we have never seen him struggle with the idea of taking a life.

 

[NoOneInParticular]

I was thinking and one thing that makes Ichigo either more or less disturbing, depending on how you choose to look at it I suppose, is that even though he's a Shinigami and it's his duty to purify Hollows, he does kind of value their lives as they are. I mean, he might have actually been doing a favour for the human Grimmjow used to be if he actually finished him off. Maybe that guy wouldn't actually want to be a savage killing machine. But I dunno, I guess it kind of puts a different spin on it - either Ichigo is being cruel by letting lost souls continue being that, or he's ruthlessly destroying Hollows even though they're a form of life he respects. I mean, that's one way to look at it, I know I'm probably overthinking. Just a thought I had...