Discussion Connection between Natsu and Acnologia?

SnailBeast

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Let me guess.
First we don`t know how Zerif went away. Probably it was E.N.D. who defeated him sacrificing his own power.
For some reason it led Acnologia too(something made him sleep).

For some reason Zerif was revived, so did all his demons including Natsu who was stored in some form by Igneel, his former teacher so he was able to raise Natsu by himself..
I think it may be a lie that Igneel fought END becouse source is rival demon Mard Geer or just a misconception..
Now we had Zerif with lowered powers, END with lowered powers and Full Power Acnologia. It means that acnologia went different path.
Probably went into some anoher dimention with slowed time such as Celestal-spirits` world so it was summoned on tenrou island without changes.
We gonna recive some intel from FT 0 soon anyway.
 

kkck

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Zeref was never really sealed as far as the manga has told us. He has simply been wandering for 400 years... Until he started to care for life, his curse went rampant and apparently was found by acknologia. Also, end does not have to be as powerful as acknologia or igneel.... His function is to kill zeref rather than igneel or acknologia. Considering the sheer amount of power dragons have I find it rather unlikely that a demon would actually be able to match it. The highest power we have seen from humans in the manga so far comes from the like of gildarts, laxus, makarov and a few others in their league... And even laxus with dragon slaying magic was not able to handle dragons significantly inferior to acknologia or igneel. Odds are it takes a dragon slayer as powerful as laxus using dragon force to actually take on a dragon... Anyways, with that in mind, just what sort of power would end need to fight acknologia or igneel? Dragons slayers have magic which is specially effective against dragons... Its the only reason they are able to do something against them and even then their base power needs to be much stronger than the top strength we have seen from mages or demons in the manga (mard geer, gildarts, makarov, laxus)... For END to pose a threat to a dragon his power would need to more than overwhelmingly dwarf anything human or demon we have seen. To me it is weird that a demon would be able to match a dragon in sheer raw power (not sure how else to put it).
 

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Zeref is the strongest mage in history. Acnologia as a human dragon slayer was also a mage and he could kill numerous dragons.
It also wasn't only acnologia. When humans were taught DS magic during the war, they turned the tide. Which means zeref>dragon slayers of old.

I think this is because unlike now, the dragon slayers had both dragons to actively train and hone their skills as well as enemy dragons to fight thus refining said skill.

I just think the dragon slayers back then were too inexperienced in actual dragon slaying/fighting (granted they used the magic but surely its more effective to have actually been fighting dragons). Natsu for example didn't use lightning flame mode or dragon force. Laxus was hardly going all out IMO. Most of them were also emerging from tough battles in the tournaments and were not even close to full power. Infact iirc, they were weakened enough that sting could apparently take our laxus, gray, gajeel, erza, juvia alone. Plus we have atlas flame speaking of END as though he was a formidable opponent. Igneel tells acnologia that the one he fears (END) is no more. Even if acnologia doesn't actually fear END, Igneel alludes that END is a tough customer even for one as powerful as END.
 

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Zeref is the strongest mage in history. Acnologia as a human dragon slayer was also a mage and he could kill numerous dragons.
It also wasn't only acnologia. When humans were taught DS magic during the war, they turned the tide. Which means zeref>dragon slayers of old.

I think this is because unlike now, the dragon slayers had both dragons to actively train and hone their skills as well as enemy dragons to fight thus refining said skill.

I just think the dragon slayers back then were too inexperienced in actual dragon slaying/fighting (granted they used the magic but surely its more effective to have actually been fighting dragons). Natsu for example didn't use lightning flame mode or dragon force. Laxus was hardly going all out IMO. Most of them were also emerging from tough battles in the tournaments and were not even close to full power. Infact iirc, they were weakened enough that sting could apparently take our laxus, gray, gajeel, erza, juvia alone. Plus we have atlas flame speaking of END as though he was a formidable opponent. Igneel tells acnologia that the one he fears (END) is no more. Even if acnologia doesn't actually fear END, Igneel alludes that END is a tough customer even for one as powerful as END.
Well, the comparison is a bit moot IMO. The issue at hand here is DS having an innate advantage over dragons. Its the video game equivalent of every hit being a critical hit at 1000%. Against zeref that would be moot because zeref is not a dragon. It is true most people during the fight had just emerged from tough battles however that does not actually apply to makarov. And even then he could not actually land a hit on a dragon. Well, he did hit atlasflame but the actual blunt impact did not even budge him. And he was at full power. I presume the other dragons would not have budged either. To add to that, laxus did go on to fight zirconis and zirconis walked out of that one pretty much unscathed. And he fought a presumably tired laxus (although him being on par with jura/gildarts seems to suggest his sheer power is at the time immensely superior to natsu's base form at least although we also have to consider natsu had probably powered up beyond his normal power thanks to eating atlasflame hellfire) which should still be significant and wendy who would have been able to power up laxus.

I am not sure the manga has actually said end is THAT powerful, as in taking on a dragon powerful. To me it kinda looks like the manga is being intentionally misleading about that. What atlasflame said is that igneel was unable to destroy END. Which in context actually means igneel was unable to destroy etherius natsu dragneel. Does that necessarily mean he was unable to match ends power? Does it have to mean a fight? Unable to destroy END could take on a number of meanings and still makes sense. Considering what END actually means I daresay it is more likely that igneel just couldn't bring himself to destroy natsu rather than being physically incapable of doing so in a fight.

Also, to me it kinda looks like the issue acknologia has with end is that end can kill zeref. Its not necessarily that end can take on acknologia. He has always acted for zeref's sake so far after all. He appeared in tenrou when zeref kinda returned and he recently made a move when END, whose sole purpose is to kill zeref, was about to be released. End being a fire demon presumably has what it takes to beat zeref although not necessarily anywhere near what he needs to beat a dragon. Perhaps acknologia will finally be at risk of being defeated now that natsu is around. His purpose is to destroy zeref, the strongest mage in history. Presumably well stronger than makarov and other strong ones we have seen. So the situation will be that natsu will somehow surpass the greatest mage in history... with dragon slayer magic. Its a situation that he should be worried of.
 

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Well you have a point. Statements about END thus far are ambiguous and we can only speculate on his strength. Still I believe it points to him being pretty powerful. We had both Igneel and Mard Geer imply that acnologia fears END's strength or that he is a match. Then there's the ponegylph showing acnologia fighting a fire wizard which is probably END.

Makarov simply tried to use his brute force in titan mode to overwhelm a dragon which obviously wouldn't suffice. Hades could toss around a titan makarov with his chains and dragons possess strength far surpassing that. Makarov himself also emerged largely unfazed from the dragon's attack. I'm particularly curious as to how a spell like fairy law would fare against a dragon.

Acnologia/Igneel are certainly the strongest dragons out there and while its debatable how END would fare against them, I believe he should be capable of defeating weaker dragons.
Silver for example managed to completely freeze atlas flame (although not fully powered) and he isn't a dragon slayer. For END to have power to battle zeref at his best, he has to be pretty powerful. Devil slayer gray (who had silvers powers) and dragon force Natsu barely took out etherious Mard Geer. END is supposedly leagues above Mard Geer in power.

I don't believe its a stretch to think END could take out some dragons.
 

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Well you have a point. Statements about END thus far are ambiguous and we can only speculate on his strength. Still I believe it points to him being pretty powerful. We had both Igneel and Mard Geer imply that acnologia fears END's strength or that he is a match. Then there's the ponegylph showing acnologia fighting a fire wizard which is probably END.

Makarov simply tried to use his brute force in titan mode to overwhelm a dragon which obviously wouldn't suffice. Hades could toss around a titan makarov with his chains and dragons possess strength far surpassing that. Makarov himself also emerged largely unfazed from the dragon's attack. I'm particularly curious as to how a spell like fairy law would fare against a dragon.

Acnologia/Igneel are certainly the strongest dragons out there and while its debatable how END would fare against them, I believe he should be capable of defeating weaker dragons.
Silver for example managed to completely freeze atlas flame (although not fully powered) and he isn't a dragon slayer. For END to have power to battle zeref at his best, he has to be pretty powerful. Devil slayer gray (who had silvers powers) and dragon force Natsu barely took out etherious Mard Geer. END is supposedly leagues above Mard Geer in power.

I don't believe its a stretch to think END could take out some dragons.
Well,end is definitely powerful but it is one thing to be powerful and another entirely different thing to match a dragon.unless dragons have immunity to human attacks altogether then what we have seen is so far is that humans simply don't have the sheer raw power to scratch a dragon. And we are talking about the top of the magic world at that. I think you might be underestimating titan too... Makarov took a Jupiter Cannon and was virtually unharmed. So far even the difference between The strongest human and dragons nowhere near acknologia is vast to the point of apparent absurdity. How much power would a demon need to match even a lowly dragon? Demons don't have an inherent advantage over dragons, they would need to best them fair and square so to speak. Are we supposed to believe end, as he was known before, is dozens of times stronger than makarov? Or hundreds of times stronger than makarov? To me that does not sound right even with zeref. Even mard geer being on the level with gildarts would be remarkable IMO.to be honest, unless zeref is a dragon slayer I don't see even hm taking a dragon.
 

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Well,end is definitely powerful but it is one thing to be powerful and another entirely different thing to match a dragon.unless dragons have immunity to human attacks altogether then what we have seen is so far is that humans simply don't have the sheer raw power to scratch a dragon. And we are talking about the top of the magic world at that. I think you might be underestimating titan too... Makarov took a Jupiter Cannon and was virtually unharmed. So far even the difference between The strongest human and dragons nowhere near acknologia is vast to the point of apparent absurdity. How much power would a demon need to match even a lowly dragon? Demons don't have an inherent advantage over dragons, they would need to best them fair and square so to speak. Are we supposed to believe end, as he was known before, is dozens of times stronger than makarov? Or hundreds of times stronger than makarov? To me that does not sound right even with zeref. Even mard geer being on the level with gildarts would be remarkable IMO.to be honest, unless zeref is a dragon slayer I don't see even hm taking a dragon.
I'm not underestimating titan. He managed to hold acnologia briefly. Makarov also emerged largely unscathed from atlas flames attack.
Titan is powerful, but its not enough to physically match a dragon if Hades could toss him around.

We already had silver completely freeze atlas flame even though he was a spirit, although that was supposedly the Same state Igneel faced acnologia.

Well, a matter of opinion since these things haven't been clarified.
 

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I'm not underestimating titan. He managed to hold acnologia briefly. Makarov also emerged largely unscathed from atlas flames attack.
Titan is powerful, but its not enough to physically match a dragon if Hades could toss him around.

We already had silver completely freeze atlas flame even though he was a spirit, although that was supposedly the Same state Igneel faced acnologia.

Well, a matter of opinion since these things haven't been clarified.
My point is more on how powerful dragons are rather than how powerful titan is... Acknologia basically toyed around with makarov, gildarts made that point. My point is that even with the overwhelming power that makarov had he did absolutely nothing to dragons. Even makarvo being relatively unharmed from atlasflames is moot if we consider makarov was the one punching. Its not like atlasflame attacked him or anything. He simply took makarov's punch and did absolutely nothing to defend himself. And took precisely zero damage. Gildarts specifically made the point that he was fodder to acknologia. And as far as we saw, gildarts class mages were fodder to the dragons attacking the capital.

Atlasflame being frozen is a feat although I would argue one not relevant to the strength of a real dragon. Atlasflame was basically (if not literally) a corpse when he was frozen by silver. It is by a combination of wendy's magic and natsu's flames that he even got to a spirit-like stage. Its unlikely he was anywhere near his true power in either stage.

Anyways, does it make sense for END as a demon to actually match the sheer raw power a dragon seems to have? Demons are powerful although it does not seem like they necessarily exceed what humans are capable of. It would be very optimistic that mard geer even made it to the sort of strength gildarts or makarov had. Wouldn't end need to be hundreds of times stronger than the likes of gildarts or makarov to actually match the sheer raw power of a dragon? And if end is as powerful as a dragon, then how would he be defeated? The situation would be along the lines of when makarov punched atlasflame... Only grey, assuming he kept and mastered demon slayer magic, would be able to do something. And even then we have to consider that laxus was not able to do much against an actual dragon even being a dragon slayer. So grey would probably need to surpass the sheer raw power we have seen from laxus and gildarts...
 

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Atlasflame being frozen is a feat although I would argue one not relevant to the strength of a real dragon. Atlasflame was basically (if not literally) a corpse when he was frozen by silver. It is by a combination of wendy's magic and natsu's flames that he even got to a spirit-like stage. Its unlikely he was anywhere near his true power in either stage.

Anyways, does it make sense for END as a demon to actually match the sheer raw power a dragon seems to have? Demons are powerful although it does not seem like they necessarily exceed what humans are capable of. It would be very optimistic that mard geer even made it to the sort of strength gildarts or makarov had. Wouldn't end need to be hundreds of times stronger than the likes of gildarts or makarov to actually match the sheer raw power of a dragon? And if end is as powerful as a dragon, then how would he be defeated? The situation would be along the lines of when makarov punched atlasflame... Only grey, assuming he kept and mastered demon slayer magic, would be able to do something. And even then we have to consider that laxus was not able to do much against an actual dragon even being a dragon slayer. So grey would probably need to surpass the sheer raw power we have seen from laxus and gildarts...
I don't see it as demons being that powerful rather its END that is that powerful. I would liken it to how acnologia even as a dragon seems to be on a different level than other dragons.

About sheer raw power, I believe there's using physical might and magical prowess. While the two are certainly linked, what we had was makarov trying to match atlas flame using sheer physical might. Aside from atlsas flame being a bad match up (due to his constant flaming body), it would be quite a feat to be able to match a dragon in physical might. Makarov has a number of powerful spells like fairy law and he can use his light magic in conjunction with his titan mode. I believe utilising magic against dragons is a better alternative instead of trying to fight them on a physical basis.

What I think is that END's magic (curses actually) are powerful enough for that. When gildarts used his crash magic during the timeskip, he was able to destroy an island. I'd say an attack that can destroy an island would leave a mark on a dragon.
Yet, considering how easily zeref killed hades and also how hades defeated makarov, its fair to say zeref is leagues above gildarts. For END to be able to defeat zeref, he needs to be immensely powerful.

I agree that mard Geer wasn't gildarts/makarov level and he is supposedly the 2nd strongest demon ever created. This ofcourse points to demons not being that powerful in general.
However, if END is supposed to be around that level, then he has no chance of defeating zeref. He has to much stronger than that to stand a chance.
There are some things that are a bit inconsistent.
For example, Igneel was in a half dead state, seemingly not having up to half of his original power and yet he managed to match acnologia for some time and even take an arm before being killed. This implies Igneel at full power should be equal or superior to acnologia but we know acnologia confronted and bested them in the past since he is responsible for their weakened state.

Acnologia is supposedly immune to DS magic if I'm not mistaken. He took a head on dragons roar from Igneel as well as other attacks, igneel's injuries were seemingly physical-based rather than magic. We know acnologia has to fall in the future, if DS magic doesn't work, then how would he be defeated?

About END and grey needing to be stronger than Makarov and Gildarts, I do believe they will surpass them in the future. Its common for the younger gen to surpass their predecessors and gildarts has stated on one or two occasions that he has confidence in the younger gen to surpass them.

It might not really seem logical especially since we haven't seen how powerful END is, but like I said earlier, acnologia will be defeated and dragons are supposedly extinct now which means the task falls to humans or END.
 

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Calm down, last post in this thread was posted in February 2015, while chapter "Memoirs", when blood-relationship between Natsu and Zeref was revealed was three months later :-_-
 

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Well, the thread is simple. Simply discussing what might be the ancient connection between natsu and acknologia. We already know natsu is END in some form or context however that does not really clarify his connection to zeref or acknologia. For a bit of context:

The manga showed acknologia in ancient tablets fighting a fire user. Perhaps the fire user was natsu or natsu in a presumably etherius form. In either case it would explain why acknologia would mobilize against FT twice, in either case the tablet would seem to hint that that guy could fight acknolgia. Or at least thwart him.

When zirconis spoke of the past the presumed siluete of acknologia kinda resembled natsu. Now, obviously natsu won't be END and acknologia (plot twist?) but the similarity does hint at a connection between them. Interesting we can make the case that in itself natsu and acknologia seem to have opposing goals. So far acknologia has fought to protect zeref and has acted so as to prevent end whose sole purpose is ending zeref. In turn acknologia was somehow made by zeref which seems to suggest he is interested in keeping the guy alive.


There might be a few more things worth mentioning although that is plenty of context for the time being. Anyways, for me this heavily hints at natsu and acknologia having a familial connection. Perhaps father and son or brothers. If we look back at rave there was a basically ancient conflict between the raregroove and the glory guys. A duality of sorts. Perhaps natsu and acknologia have something similar going on. However with the context given here it kinda seems like they would be related and eventually took opposing paths.

Acknologia took a path of destruction. Natsu has so far taken a path to save those he cares about. Acknologia fights to protect zeref for some reason. Natsu fights to defeat zeref. Acknologia turned into a dragon. Natsu can seemingly turn into a particularly powerful demon.

Now assuming a familial relationship the one that would make the most sense to be is that acknologia is actually natsu's brother. I was thinking father but that does not really work all that well within then context of the duality thing. So acknologia is natsu's brother who took an opposing path to natsu.

Any thoughts?
Zeref and Natsu are brothers, during a war, I might be wrong about the war part, Zeref's family died, so he tried to revive Natsu, and got cursed for it, thererfore he made Natsu the strongest demon. When he revived as a little boy Igneel told Zeref that he offered himself to teach Natsu magic, the way Igneel failed to kill END was because he felt afection for little Natsu. All of this can be read on chapter 440-480, between that range I guess. Now the relation between END and Acnologia, I have no idea, but O guess he is afraid of him since, welll you know, END is mote powerful than Zeref.
Etherios Natsu Dragneel (END)
I know this post is way too late
 

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Team Acno of Reditt

Theory Number 2 - Acnologia - Dragon, Tragic Hero, Dragneel?
I remember reading this thread awhile back. It's a great write up, and you should take the time to read it.

Why should I?

JUST DO IT AND STOP INTERRUPTING ME.

This second theory proposes that Acnologia is actually a tragic hero. He thought he was doing the right thing, and now is blinded by his ideals and has turned to destruction.

Acnologia is the older brother of both Zeref and Natsu. He left to fight in the dragon civil war before Zeref was old enough to realize it. This would give Acnologia knowledge of Zeref, but it would explain why Zeref didn't think that Acno would meet with him, yet Acno did anyways. He wanted to see his younger brother. So Acnologia leaves to fight in the civil war, and it just so happens that his parents have another child, Natsu. He gets word of this, and wants to go back and visit. When he gets to his village/hometown, a dragon invasion breaks out. Acnologia tries to fight off the dragons, but they claim the lives of his parents, his younger brother that he has yet to meet Natsu, and presumably Zeref. Distraught and angered, Acnologia goes on a blind rage and vows to destroy every last trace of the dragon race, including the now dragon slayer and zombified little brother, Natsu.

Imagine the toll that would take on someones head. Knowing that they could have done more to save the lives of their family, but it all fails. Sure it could be like Deliora and Gray, but Acnologia wasn't a child, and has the magic that is used to slay the creatures that destroyed his family. When word gets to Acno that his brother Zeref still lives, a little part of his brain says he wants to see him, but the trauma has still implanted itself in his brain, and he continues on his path of destruction.

iirc, no one has ever yelled "Natsu Dragneel!" in front of Acnologia.
 
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