How is it that you built an entire theory literally around the word "intimidate" but I am the one arguing semantics when I point out the translation you reference is inaccurate? Your entire theory was built around semantics to begin with.
They felt it when he had it activated, that's the point. It means if he had kept it activated indefinitely assuming he was able to control it, they'd still be intimidated. It's not a logical fallacy, it's simply disregarding facts here.
Because it's consistent, that's why and Rayleigh said it.
Your argument has no basis at all, it's simply ifs, buts, maybe, nothing concrete.
It's really not semantics when it's this obviously displayed and often implied through out the manga.
They felt it when he had it activated, that's the point. It means if he had kept it activated indefinitely assuming he was able to control it, they'd still be intimidated. It's not a logical fallacy, it's simply disregarding facts here.
It's not consistent... If anything, rayleigh not using the word intimidate completely invalidates it... I mean, the "obviously displayed" and "often implied" depend on that one translation to make any level of sense. You are literally confusing something being legitimately scary for it having scaring magic....
COC can intimidate but that is because as far as the ones feeling it are concerned they are feeling overwhelming power, overwhelming willpower. They understand the implications of luffy's enormous haki. Imagine straight up running into a lion. Would you be scared? If you are, is it because lions have the magical ability to be scary to others or is it because holy shit there is a lion in front of you? Would absolute everyone be scared of the lion? It's more or less the same situation with luffy. People react to the literally overwhelming haki luffy releases.
Rayleigh said it's the power to Overwhelm others, not the power to express his own will.
Luffy surviving Ivankov's hormone treatment showed he had great will power, such an act doesn't overpower or overwhelm anyone's will.
So, CoC is not simply expressing, it's simply overpowering, overwhelming and intimidating others.
Hell, what did Rayleigh even say about not controlling CoC?
It overpowers, intimidates and overwhelms others. So, this claim about it simply just being "showboating" is really a fallacy. It's a power that affects other's wills, not indicate.
Rayleigh said it's the power to Overwhelm others, not the power to express his own will.
Luffy surviving Ivankov's hormone treatment showed he had great will power, such an act doesn't overpower or overwhelm anyone's will.
So, CoC is not simply expressing, it's simply overpowering, overwhelming and intimidating others.
Hell, what did Rayleigh even say about not controlling CoC?
It overpowers, intimites and overwhelms others. So, this claim about it simply just being "showboating" is really a fallacy. It's a power that affects other's wills, not indicate.
The manga describes conqueror's haki as the power to overpower other's will's through your own.
cnet translation said:
Rayleigh: This is the ability to overpower the opponent's will... It is called "Sovereign Haki"...!! / It can often be found in the type of people who make a name for themselves on a global scale. / However, whilst it can be brought under control, the Sovereign Haki is unique in that it cannot be trained. // It is the user's very spirit manifest...!! It can only be strengthened by the individual's personal growth.
And rayleigh makes the point it is the user's very spirit manifest.
And in whatever scenario, the manga has shown this power only really affects people much weaker than yourself. Heck, look at oda's explanation about it in the SBS:
D: Luffy's haoshoku haki was able to affect 50,000 men, but how many would Shanks and the others be able to defeat? P.N. Captain Nobuo
O: In exactly the same place and exact same situation as Luffy, Shanks or Rayleigh may have been capable of knocking out all 100,000. In a different setting, you can't really compare just by asking "how many people". Being able to knock an enemy out with haki depends entirely on having an overwhelming power gap between the two. In Luffy's case the point is the number of people that were so weak that they were not even worth him fighting. If there were 100,000 to-some-extent-strong-willed pirates before him, it's possible that he wouldn't even be able to knock out a single one. On a related note, as one's proficiency with haoshoku advances, it's even possible to target a few people in a crowd to NOT knock out.
To knock someone out the bare requirement is to be overwhelmingly stronger than someone else. And when have we seen anyone with some measure of strength being affected or otherwise impaired with haki? The closest thing to that is pre time skip strawhats flinching at it... So... even people who are literally worthless in terms of strength can basically resist conqueror's haki from the strongest crew's second mate....
Yes, to intimidate. He didn't say knock out, knocking out is just how it affects the weakest
while the strong keep conscious, they are initmidated or overwhelmed.
To knock someone out the bare requirement is to be overwhelmingly stronger than someone else. And when have we seen anyone with some measure of strength being affected or otherwise impaired with haki? The closest thing to that is pre time skip strawhats flinching at it... So... even people who are literally worthless in terms of strength can basically resist conqueror's haki from the strongest crew's second mate....
And to knock out as minimum requirement is something you've conjured, where did the Oda ever state that or imply it?
Oda also said in a different setting, they may only have knocked out few people. He's literally saying knocking out is really not the emphasis as so many of the fandom believe, so it's even clearly stated here. If it were the emphasis, knocking out and the number will always be how one measures the strength of CoC.
He never said they never get initmidated.
An unconscious person cannot feel intimidated.
You're still disregarding the Gorgon sisters scene as if Oda didn't draw that part of the manga.
Even the raws from Aohige and a Indonesian translation say "intimidate".
p16
Rayleigh: This is the Color of Conqueror King (Haoh-shoku) Haki… the type of haki that can intimidate the opponent…!!
Those who become extremely famous in this world is often found to use this haki….
However… this Haoushoku can be controlled, but not trained.
This power is the will of the user himself…!! Its strength only grows as the user himself
And you still disregard and have no explanation for this, Rayleigh said it affects others by overhwlming, overpowering and intimidationg which are all the same, not show how strong his haki. So, your analysis is inaccurate.
If it were just show, then why did Sandersonia still say "if he can't control it, then it's just a huge volume of haki". He showed it as she clearly indicated, but he couldn't control it which solidifies that it affects, it's not just for show.
To me it's not that CoC itself that intimidates, it's the fact that someone has it.
We know the effect of CoC is to overpower a person, and that is typically shown as them fainting. That is the main use of CoC and nothing else so far has been shown that could suggest that CoC itself is used to intimidate a person. If a person doesn't faint then it's simply she's not affected by it. However CoC is the proof of someone's strong will, since overpowering someone's will just means that the user's own will is stronger. So if a person were to show that she has it, then that places her above other people, and would suggest that she has a strong will power, as well as a dream to be king. This is explained by Chinjao.
So it's not so much CoC that could have another effect, other than the fainting one, but you could say that it's the proof of one's tier. And even then some characters have it, when they're far from being so special like Chinjao so it kinda feels wasted on them.
And the only time we saw two CoCs clash it didn't look like it had a huge impact, it was just a standoff between two individuals(Luffy and DD) who are strong willed. Nothing substantial came out from their face off, we didn't see Luffy or DD run with his tail between his legs, petrified in fear because he was being intimidated.
And even if we argue that they're close in terms of CoC, it just doesn't have that much of impact overall in their fight. So I fear that CoC's use is limited to knocking people off by overpowering their will. Those who aren't too weak can resist it. And CoC in itself doesn't have the ability to intimidate, it's just that it shows that someone is from a higher tier than the rest, which would make anyone thread more carefully.
So I guess I agree with kkck here, and I absolutely do not agree with your theory, Hannibal Psyche. Nothing substantial has been shown that proves that CoC can intimidate a person, all you have in a choice of words that can mean many things, especially if put out of context.
I suggest we give this a rest, and see how Oda plans to use CoC in the future, if he really plans to make it that CoC is used to intimidate people. That would save us a lot of trouble.
That's contradictory because, when the Gorgon sisters experienced Luffy's CoC, they were afraid.
As soon as his Haki stopped being in effect, they said "he has a great amount of haki, but can't control it, nothing to be afraid of". So, it's not the fact that he has it that intimidates, it's what it explicitly does.
It doesn't make sense to be intimidated by something that has no effect.
Rayleigh ultimately said, do not use it until it can be controlled, or it will overwhlem, overpower or intimidate others.
Lastly, Rayleigh told us it overwhems others, so clearly, a clash is simply 2 CoC users trying to overwhelm each other. Really doesn't have anything to do with Oda having future plans, it's already been stated, so it's fact that's consistent all along the manga from the moment Shanks used it on the Sea-King to the clashes we see today.
And, sorry, what is the point of a forum if we're not allowed to debate just because of disagreement, just curious.
I think the main thing is that even if we would think that Conqueror's Haki intimidates people we have no evidence of it affecting actually strong people. No one would actually think that Gorgon Sisters are anything more than a little bit stronger than ordinary fodder; I just think that they were on the level of strength that were somewhat affected by Luffy's Haki but not enough for them to faint. And I never thought that the expressions in the Marineford War were anything else than that of a character simply being surprised or amazed by Luffy's haki.
That's contradictory because, when the Gorgon sisters experienced Luffy's CoC, they were afraid.
As soon as his Haki stopped being in effect, they said "he has a great amount of haki, but can't control it, nothing to be afraid of". So, it's not the fact that he has it that intimidates, it's what it explicitly does.
It doesn't make sense to be intimidated by something that has no effect.
Rayleigh ultimately said, do not use it until it can be controlled, or it will overwhlem, overpower or intimidate others.
Lastly, Rayleigh told us it overwhems others, so clearly, a clash is simply 2 CoC users trying to overwhelm each other. Really doesn't have anything to do with Oda having future plans, it's already been stated, so it's fact that's consistent all along the manga from the moment Shanks used it on the Sea-King to the clashes we see today.
And, sorry, what is the point of a forum if we're not allowed to debate just because of disagreement, just curious.
I didn't say we can't debate, just that so far there's no such evidence that proves that CoC has the effect you suggest. So your whole theory at this point holds on the word "intimidate" that Rayleigh used.
And it seems you have ignored my point about what CoC can reveal about a character. As for the Gorgon sisters, they simply didn't expect Luffy to have CoC.
That is how we can explain their reaction, sure Luffy at that point didn't know what he was doing, but even then it's entirely possible that the Gorgon sisters would resist his CoC.
I just don't see the point of having CoC intimidate someone. The stronger fighters we saw who also happen to be CoC users aren't affected by it, and it's hard to see characters like Zoro etc who might not have CoC get intimidated by someone who does. It would greatly cheapen things if all of a sudden CoC could be used to intimidate people.So there would be no point in fighting anymore. That is not good writing imo, so it's best to just keep it to a state where once used it can knock out individuals that aren't strong willed.
I think the main thing is that even if we would think that Conqueror's Haki intimidates people we have no evidence of it affecting actually strong people. No one would actually think that Gorgon Sisters are anything more than a little bit stronger than ordinary fodder; I just think that they were on the level of strength that were somewhat affected by Luffy's Haki but not enough for them to faint. And I never thought that the expressions in the Marineford War were anything else than that of a character simply being surprised or amazed by Luffy's haki.
Yes the Gorgon sisters are far from qualifying as strong characters, even now I'm not convinced that Hancock is that strong. They had the edge over Luffy because they along with all the Amazon lily inhabitants knew about Haki. Luffy simply didn't, so he was at a disadvantage.
CoC was revealed to be something anyone who dreams to be king has. Ace had it since he was a child. This had been explained in the manga by Chinjao, so at best it can knock out fodder and shows that someone dreams to be king. So while it was a pretty big deal back in Marineford, it's less so now that we know more about it, and even when it was used during a clash of haki, it didn't have such a big effect.
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And @Hannibal Psyche if we look back to the time when Shanks met WB we clearly see Jozu explain that those who don't have any determination can't stay conscious in front of him.
So if we go by that those who have determination, and are strong willed stay conscious. Also in the beginning we see Marco say that the youngsters won't survive this. It's an exagerration, obviously. In this manga we often have characters make claims that can be a bit misleading, like Marco when at first he said that they won't survive it. That means that CoC would literally kill them, but it's not the case, they were simply unconscious.
So when we saw the Gorgon sisters react that way, we can't ignore their own surprise in the matter. You can't separate that from their response, so it's not intimidation per say. And on top of that we can even see some characters make claims that are way too exagerrated, like Marco for instance. Or are you going to claim that CoC can even kill a person? If that were the case I'm not sure I'd be willing to continue reading this manga, that would be a way to cheapen things greatly.
Do not forget that at that point Shanks was a much more advanced user than Luffy, and he prolly still is now. So if at that point he could intimidate someone like Jozu or Marco, then we simply didn't see it happen. If on top of knocking out the weak ones, Shanks could intimidate anyone regardless of his strength, then that should have happened back then. There was no reason for him to go easy on them either, since he was considering himself in enemy territory.
So those who are left standing are simply able to withstand his haki, thanks to their determination. So this should speak in length about what Haki does, since what we have in front of us is Shanks, an advanced haki user, who is facing strong individuals, a Yonko's crew and they don't look intimidated one bit.
The only effect his haki had was to knock out the weak ones, and his haki is so strong it is seen making a crack in WB's ship.
So to me that is strong evidence that all CoC does is knock out those who aren't strong willed. That's it and those who are strong willed aren't affected by it.There's no reason to think that things have changed either, since Haki was portrayed the same way, even Armament Haki. So again all you have to base your theory is the words Rayleigh used in the beginning of the sentence, and like with Marco we saw that the first statement can be misleading, or even an exagerration, but it's usually the long explanation that we take at face value.
Rayleigh here uses the term "Overpower", that's exactly what we saw Shanks do. It's present in people who make a name for themselves on a global scale.That is exactly what I referred to, it's the disposition of a king. It also gives an idea about how strong willed a person is, however this haki cannot be trained, it becomes stronger with the individual's personal growth.
So here we have a rather lengthy explanation of what CoC is, and what it should do. Luffy had to learn to control it or else he'd hurt innocent bystanders, like we saw in Amazon lily. Because he didn't control it it affected the audience. Nowhere is it said that it would work on stronger willed opponents, and it didn't with the Gorgon sisters. I guess that if Luffy's growth is so great his haki would become stronger, which means depending on the gap between him and his opponent there's a chance he could knock him out, but imo that doesn't necessarily mean it will work on people who are determined(the case of WB's crew). He could also be able to pinpoint which individuals he can knock out, which is ultimately better than using it on a large scale and taking the risk of hurting innocent bystanders.
So to me CoC was already explained, with the effects we already know, and nothing has changed between the first time it was introduced and now. It also reveals a lot about a person's disposition, so that itself can be "intimidating".
We saw Pika and the others swear fealty to DD just because he had CoC, and they saw him as someone worthy of being PK. And yet he was just a kid, so that proves that CoC shows that one has the disposition of a king.
The issue here is that there is a difference between something having the capacity to be intimidating (which conqueror's haki has) and it's explicit ability being to intimidate. The implication here would be that conqueror's haki is something like ass nodt's ability from bleach which could indeed specifically trigger fear in the target. Which doesn't really make sense nor can be properly supported with current manga evidence for conqueror's haki. Conqueror's haki can be intimidating but that is not an implicit attribute of it. Some things are just scary to some people...
And @Hannibal Psyche if we look back to the time when Shanks met WB we clearly see Jozu explain that those who don't have any determination can't stay conscious in front of him.
This claim that there's no evidence is a false one because it's explicitly stated and implied in many panels.
Why would Joker use CoC against Luffy if it didn't have an effect? He used it when he wanted to kill Law, it wouldn't make sense if it was nothing more than graphic effects, like you're making it out to be.
This claim that CoC doesn't intimidate, is no different to saying Observation Haki doesn't work or it's never used because when we see Joker, Smoker, Law, Vergo, Sanji or Zoro use it, they don't evade every move.
Do you realise that when Rayleigh was explaining CoC, he simply used Haki against an opponent vastly weaker than himself in order to really show how exactly it worked? So, the results as seen in Rayleigh's demonstration was exaggerated.
When Luffy fought the Gorgon sisters, Sandersonia initially was dodging every one of Luffy's moves.
As soon as Luffy moved on to Gear 2nd, his moves were still being read, but she couldn't dodge them because they were too fast. Does that mean It's valid to disregard it as Observation Haki doesn't predict attcks? No.
Rayleigh used Observation Haki against the Elepahant and dodged every move with ease; against Kizaru, it's a totally contrasting situation because he's clearly having a difficult time, you wouldn't be able to tell he was using Observation haki at all.
Against the Elephant, Rayleigh's Armament Haki deflected the Elephant's attack just like the Gorgon sisters against Luffy.
In contrast, when Armament Haki is used against stronger enemies, this rebound effect is non-existent, why? Clearly, it's because the Elephant is simply very weak physically in comparison to Rayleigh, and Luffy's attacks are much more powerful against the Gorgon sisters despite Armament Haki.
It's very clear that Rayleigh's demonstration was exaggerated due to being against significantly weak opponents.
So, when CoC knocks an Elephant out and doesn't do so in other scenarios, it's merely showing the degrees at which it has its effects.
And the one thing being sorely misinterpreted is, Jozu only said they retain consciousness if they're strong willed, he didn't say they do not get intimidated, overwhelemd or overpwoered, nonetheless.
The Sea-king against Shanks didn't lose consciousness, according to you, that'd means Shank's CoC was completely useless and served no purpose, but that clearly, doesn't make sense.
The issue here is that there is a difference between something having the capacity to be intimidating (which conqueror's haki has) and it's explicit ability being to intimidate.
The capacity? and the ability to intimidate? When Rayleigh explicitly said CoC is the ability to intimidate?
I'll just ask you 2 question with Viz Translations.
Why would Sandersonia tell Mari, there's nothing to fear right after he used it momentarily if they weren't intimidated at the burst of CoC?
And why did Sandersonia sy it means nothing if he can't control it, if it's not a power that explicitly intimidates when they just explicitly implied that they were intimidated?
No that's your take on it, it's your interpretation.Don't try to make it pass like a fact.
Why would Joker use CoC against Luffy if it didn't have an effect? He used it when he wanted to kill Law, it wouldn't make sense if it was nothing more than graphic effects, like you're making it out to be.
It's a clash of CoC, there isn't really a reason to do so, it was just to show their will power, it's not about intimidating and even if it was it's not a direct effect. Haki doesn't intimidate per say, it's the fact that someone has it that does!
This claim that CoC doesn't intimidate, is no different to saying Observation Haki doesn't work or it's never used because when we see Joker, Smoker, Law, Vergo, Sanji or Zoro use it, they don't evade every move.
I don't know, but you tell me. If CoO is always turned on, then DD would have been able to predict every one of Luffy's move right? Or am I mistaken about what CoO means?
Do you realise that when Rayleigh was explaining CoC, he simply used Haki against an opponent vastly weaker than himself in order to really show how exactly it worked? So, the results as seen in Rayleigh's demonstration was exaggerated.
Do you realize that you're contradicting yourself? If CoC can intimidate, then Haki should work regardless of how strong an opponent is. If he's too weak he faints, and if he's strong then he should get intimidated.
When Luffy fought the Gorgon sisters, Sandersonia initially was dodging every one of Luffy's moves
As soon as Luffy moved on to Gear 2nd, his moves were still being read, but she couldn't dodge them because they were too fast. Does that mean It's valid to disregard it as Observation Haki doesn't predict attcks? No.
It's a matter of speed, she can read his attacks,you answered your own question. If she can't keep up with his speed, it doesn't matter if she can predict his attacks. So the comparison with DD doesn't stand, since we never saw him claim that he could read Luffy's attacks. So we actually don't know if he was trying to read Luffy's attacks.
Rayleigh used Observation Haki against the Elepahant and dodged every move with ease; against Kizaru, it's a totally contrasting situation because he's clearly having a difficult time, you wouldn't be able to tell he was using Observation haki at all.
Again how do we know for sure he was using it? Also we're not talking about CoO, we're talking about CoC specifically.
And the one thing being sorely misinterpreted is, Jozu only said they retain consciousness if they're strong willed, he didn't say they do not get intimidated, overwhelemd or overpwoered, nonetheless.
Overpowered=losing conscioussness. There's nothing else hinted about it affecting people in a different way.
The Sea-king against Shanks didn't lose consciousness, according to you, that'd means Shank's CoC was completely useless and served no purpose, but that clearly, doesn't make sense.
Is it confirmed that he was using CoC back then? Because while it's possible, it's also possible that was Shanks killing intent. Not just that but maybe it doesn't work on sea kings? They're different from other animals, I don't think there was a case throughout this manga where a sea king would lose conscioussness, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. So that would mean that Sea kings could be more strong willed than other animals.
We know they're a bit different since they share a link with Shirahoshi, who happens to be Poseidon. Also there's king in Sea king, so I don't think it's just there to show.
So rather the Sea King backing off has to do with the fact that Shanks has Haki, the CoC to be more specific. And like me and kkck explained, it's not that CoC directly intimidates, it's the fact that someone has that disposition to begin with that can be intimidating.
This is irrelevant to the power of CoC, yes, so it hihglights people with the quality of a king, but that's not what makes it a scary power.
There's nothing scary about it to be frank. You're just hyping it too much it seems. CoC only works on weak people by making them faint, so while Shanks or even Luffy can knock out a few thousands, it's just fodder. It doesn't work on stronger people imo, and certainly not on other CoC users.
However, I'll leave it at that, I don't expect much people to understand this.
Yes that's because you're not making much of a case here.
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The capacity? and the ability to intimidate? When Rayleigh explicitly said CoC is the ability to intimidate?
I'll just ask you 2 question with Viz Translations.
Why would Sandersonia tell Mari, there's nothing to fear right after he used it momentarily if they weren't intimidated at the burst of CoC?
And why did Sandersonia sy it means nothing if he can't control it, if it's not a power that explicitly intimidates when they just explicitly implied that they were intimidated?
Are we 100% sure the last two Gorgon sisters are immune to Haki?If they weren't then there is reason to be afraid.Him controlling it allows Luffy to pinpoint which people he wants to knock out, at that moment he was knocking out people randomly, and he wouldn't have been able to target Sandersonia and Marigold specifically. Oda explained it in an SBS, the bit about choosing which to knock out, and this also meets with Rayleigh explanation about hurting innocent bystanders. If he can't control it he can't target a certain individual, and instead he knocks out without discrimination.
SBS volume 65 said:
D: Luffy's haoshoku haki was able to affect 50,000 men, but how many would Shanks and the others be able to defeat? P.N. Captain Nobuo
O: In exactly the same place and exact same situation as Luffy, Shanks or Rayleigh may have been capable of knocking out all 100,000. In a different setting, you can't really compare just by asking "how many people". Being able to knock an enemy out with haki depends entirely on having an overwhelming power gap between the two. In Luffy's case the point is the number of people that were so weak that they were not even worth him fighting. If there were 100,000 to-some-extent-strong-willed pirates before him, it's possible that he wouldn't even be able to knock out a single one.On a related note, as one's proficiency with haoshoku advances, it's even possible to target a few people in a crowd to NOT knock out.
If we take this into account it explains the situation with the Gorgon sisters.Notice that Oda doesn't mention anything about intimidating when talking about strong willed people. He says that he won't be able to knock out a single one of them, so that shows that the only effect CoC has it to knock out individuals who aren't strong willed.And the more efficient Luffy is at using it, he can target people. Do you understand now?
Well I'm done anyway, I don't see the point of discussing this anymore.
This claim that there's no evidence is a false one because it's explicitly stated and implied in many panels.
Why would Joker use CoC against Luffy if it didn't have an effect? He used it when he wanted to kill Law, it wouldn't make sense if it was nothing more than graphic effects, like you're making it out to be.
This claim that CoC doesn't intimidate, is no different to saying Observation Haki doesn't work or it's never used because when we see Joker, Smoker, Law, Vergo, Sanji or Zoro use it, they don't evade every move.
Do you realise that when Rayleigh was explaining CoC, he simply used Haki against an opponent vastly weaker than himself in order to really show how exactly it worked? So, the results as seen in Rayleigh's demonstration was exaggerated.
When Luffy fought the Gorgon sisters, Sandersonia initially was dodging every one of Luffy's moves.
As soon as Luffy moved on to Gear 2nd, his moves were still being read, but she couldn't dodge them because they were too fast. Does that mean It's valid to disregard it as Observation Haki doesn't predict attcks? No.
Rayleigh used Observation Haki against the Elepahant and dodged every move with ease; against Kizaru, it's a totally contrasting situation because he's clearly having a difficult time, you wouldn't be able to tell he was using Observation haki at all.
Against the Elephant, Rayleigh's Armament Haki deflected the Elephant's attack just like the Gorgon sisters against Luffy.
In contrast, when Armament Haki is used against stronger enemies, this rebound effect is non-existent, why? Clearly, it's because the Elephant is simply very weak physically in comparison to Rayleigh, and Luffy's attacks are much more powerful against the Gorgon sisters despite Armament Haki.
It's very clear that Rayleigh's demonstration was exaggerated due to being against significantly weak opponents.
So, when CoC knocks an Elephant out and doesn't do so in other scenarios, it's merely showing the degrees at which it has its effects.
And the one thing being sorely misinterpreted is, Jozu only said they retain consciousness if they're strong willed, he didn't say they do not get intimidated, overwhelemd or overpwoered, nonetheless.
The Sea-king against Shanks didn't lose consciousness, according to you, that'd means Shank's CoC was completely useless and served no purpose, but that clearly, doesn't make sense.
This is irrelevant to the power of CoC, yes, so it hihglights people with the quality of a king, but that's not what makes it a scary power.
The capacity? and the ability to intimidate? When Rayleigh explicitly said CoC is the ability to intimidate?
I'll just ask you 2 question with Viz Translations.
Why would Sandersonia tell Mari, there's nothing to fear right after he used it momentarily if they weren't intimidated at the burst of CoC?
And why did Sandersonia sy it means nothing if he can't control it, if it's not a power that explicitly intimidates when they just explicitly implied that they were intimidated?
It's not implied or stated anywhere. The only evidence that haki was the ability to intimidate was a mangastream mistranslation. Other than that rayleigh simply says conqueror's haki is the ability to overpower the enemy's will and such a thing according to oda only works depending on circumstances and against people who are overwhelmingly weaker than yourself.
So what we have is that there is no evidence whatsoever to the idea that haki is something comparable to as nodt's fear and the manga has yet to actually explain what happens when two conqueror haki users clash or how conqueror haki affects someone in a fight when that person does not faint from it. Overall what we have seen is that any measure of power is enough to resist conqueror haki, hence why ussop, chopper or nami did not fall prey to it when rayleigh used it against them.
Well, yeah, jozu didn't anything about them not getting intimidated. But there is nothing in the manga that suggests haki does that to begin with. Rayleigh simply did not say conqueror's haki is the ability to intimidate. It's the ability to overpower the enemy's will.
As for the sandersonia... really? As far as the boa sisters were concerned luffy had just released a huge amount of power. A huge amount of power is the sort of thing you can be understandably scared off. And sandersonia realized luffy could not control the power he had. Is there a reason to be afraid of a huge amount of power the enemy can't use? Of course not. This in no form or context provides evidence to what you are suggesting.
So, it really isn't a case of recognizing he has great power, it's only after he used it they recognized it; you're putting the cart, before the horse here.
If we take this into account it explains the situation with the Gorgon sisters.Notice that Oda doesn't mention anything about intimidating when talking about strong willed people. He says that he won't be able to knock out a single one of them, so that shows that the only effect CoC has it to knock out individuals who aren't strong willed.And the more efficient Luffy is at using it, he can target people. Do you understand now?
Well I'm done anyway, I don't see the point of discussing this anymore.
I'll just highlight to you, you're making the same mistake as the person who asked Oda than question. Knocking out is not the entire purpose of CoC, or it'd be the only standard by which to measure its strength which is what the person asking the question thinks, and Oda explictly dismisses. There's not one translation out there that even states that CoC is solely, the power to knock people out, I'd like to see someone find that.
D: Luffy's haoshoku haki was able to affect 50,000 men, but how many would Shanks and the others be able to defeat? P.N. Captain Nobuo
O: In exactly the same place and exact same situation as Luffy, Shanks or Rayleigh may have been capable of knocking out all 100,000. In a different setting, you can't really compare just by asking "how many people". Being able to knock an enemy out with haki depends entirely on having an overwhelming power gap between the two. In Luffy's case the point is the number of people that were so weak that they were not even worth him fighting. If there were 100,000 to-some-extent-strong-willed pirates before him,it's possible that he wouldn't even be able to knock out a single one. On a related note, as one's proficiency with haoshoku advances, it's even possible to target a few people in a crowd to NOT knock out.
Oda literally and explicitly stated that the number of people one can knock it is irrelevant, that doesn't determine explicitly how strong one's haki is.
He also said against strong willed, he said it's unlike they'd be knocked out, however, did he say CoC would be irrelevant because of that? He never did.
And it's not like Oda is not the one writing the Manga, so anything Oda would say in SBS would be consistent with what's being said and portrayed in the Manga, or else, there's no point referencing anything in the Manga, and simply just making baseless speculation.
Fallacy.
Shanks againt the Sea ?King, it's fear, regardless of losing consciousness.Against Motobaro.
So, it really isn't only Rayleigh that talks about intimidation.
And you actually give no definition for what it means to overwhelm or overpower someone's will, you're simply ambiguously using it.
What you're failing to recognize here is that Luffy did use it momentarily, that much even you can't deny.
So, it really isn't a case of recognizing he has great power, it's only after he used it they recognized it; you're putting the cart, before the horse here.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
I'll just highlight to you, you're making the same mistake as the person who asked Oda than question. Knocking out is not the entire purpose of CoC, or it'd be the only standard by which to measure its strength which is what the person asking the question thinks, and Oda explictly dismisses. There's not one translation out there that even states that CoC is solely, the power to knock people out, I'd like to see someone find that.
Oda literally and explicitly stated that the number of people one can knock it is irrelevant, that doesn't determine explicitly how strong one's haki is.
He also said against strong willed, he said it's unlike they'd be knocked out, however, did he say CoC would be irrelevant because of that? He never did.
And it's not like Oda is not the one writing the Manga, so anything Oda would say in SBS would be consistent with what's being said and portrayed in the Manga, or else, there's no point referencing anything in the Manga, and simply just making baseless speculation.
The fallacy here is your entire theory. Yes, the sea king is scared. And the bull as well. However it is explicitly a fallacy to suggest because of that haki has the specific ability to induce fear or intimidate. Haki can scare others. But only in the same form and context as, say, a spider would scare someone. It's not that spiders have the specific ability to induce fears. They are just scary for whatever reason. In the case of the sea king and the bull felt shank's or luffy's power and as a result were scared. It's one thing for something to be scary and another for it to have specific ability to induce fear ass nodt style. Your entire reasoning is a fallacy.
It's also plain wrong to say "So, it really isn't only Rayleigh that talks about intimidation.". Rayleigh never talks about this. Though I have pointed this out before.
I don't really have anything else to add to the sandersonia bit. The answer to that is simple, sandersonia says not to be scared because they didn't have a reason to be scared of luffy. Nothing else. Heck, if haki had the ability to intimidate others ass nodt style then they wouldn't have a choice but to be scared. And since luffy could not use the power they wouldn't have been scared due to it hence telling her not to be scared would be moot.
So, it really isn't only Rayleigh that talks about intimidation.
So, it really isn't only Rayleigh that talks about intim
However it is explicitly a fallacy to suggest because of that haki has the specific ability to induce fear or intimidate. Haki can scare others. But only in the same form and context as, say, a spider would scare someone.
You admit the Sea King is scared, since when did Shanks become a spider? The Sea King was about to eat Luffy and Shanks, and it did eat Shank's arm off in fact, so it has nothing to do with a prior, or inate fear. It only got scared after haki, so again, your logic is pretty illogical here and lacks any consistency.
It's also plain wrong to say "So, it really isn't only Rayleigh that talks about intimidation.". Rayleigh never talks about this. Though I have pointed this out before.
He does, you simply deny the fact even though he explicitly stated it in Both Manga and Anime and all other translations oimply the same.
To say that the Seaking was intimidated as was the bull, but it wasn't Haki even though Haki was used right before their reactions is simply denial on your part. It's as illogical as saying that someone got burnt right after a fire appeared, but it's not the fire that did it.
And the fact that regardless of what translation you want, they all tell Luffy to not use CoC until he can control it, or else he'd intimidate, overpower or overwhelm his opponents. Do you know what overwhelm or overpower even mean? It means to suppress or can even be called bullying, it's still intimidation in the end. Your explanation of CoC has been inconsistent and pretty much not even based on the Manga, you make exceptions here and there to rationalise your thinking, but it should always be consistent, and intimidation is very much a consistent explanation of how and what CoC has done till now.
Not even "weak" innocent people, just innocent people which refers to friends and allies regardless of strength, or he wouldn't have stood out the way of his crew whilst using it at Fishman Island.
Well it can intimidate but there are more proofs that Haoshoku can affect dead objects than it can simply intimidate. Simple presence of Shanks made ship of WB breaking apart and always when we have clash of Haoshoku there is shockwave that can blow away everything and makes surrounding break apart. There is a lot of but still not solid evidences that Haoshoku has vast kind of effects but we have to wait until Oda explains everything to us. For me Haoshoku will be like life force/ki attack in the future. The stronger will, the stronger power you can get.
Being scared of a spider is inate, it would be something that would be expressed on sight or on reflex, not something that one has to rationalise.
The Bull wasn't scared of Luffy initially, until he used CoC, so of course it's CoC that scared it, so your explanation is inconsistent.
You admit the Sea King is scared, since when did Shanks become a spider? The Sea King was about to eat Luffy and Shanks, and it did eat Shank's arm off in fact, so it has nothing to do with a prior, or inate fear. It only got scared after haki, so again, your logic is pretty illogical here and lacks any consistency.
He does, you simply deny the fact even though he explicitly stated it in Both Manga and Anime and all other translations oimply the same.
To say that the Seaking was intimidated as was the bull, but it wasn't Haki even though Haki was used right before their reactions is simply denial on your part. It's as illogical as saying that someone got burnt right after a fire appeared, but it's not the fire that did it.
And the fact that regardless of what translation you want, they all tell Luffy to not use CoC until he can control it, or else he'd intimidate, overpower or overwhelm his opponents. Do you know what overwhelm or overpower even mean? It means to suppress or can even be called bullying, it's still intimidation in the end. Your explanation of CoC has been inconsistent and pretty much not even based on the Manga, you make exceptions here and there to rationalise your thinking, but it should always be consistent, and intimidation is very much a consistent explanation of how and what CoC has done till now.
Not even "weak" innocent people, just innocent people which refers to friends and allies regardless of strength, or he wouldn't have stood out the way of his crew whilst using it at Fishman Island.
Innate to whom? That is a big difference here. If the spider has the innate ability to scare people ass nodt style (who triggered arbitrary fear regardless of context or circumstances) then the spider in question would scare everyone the same. However spiders don't have that ability which means the fear depends on the one feeling it, not the object of the fear. Shanks can use his haki but whether the target is intimidated or not depends entirely on the target and how it perceives the situation. Shanks made an actual threat to the sea king and so did luffy to motobaro (even beyond actual words) and the sea king and motobaro found shanks and luffy terrifying. Of course, I am not saying it was a rational fear either. It's just that those guys found luffy and shanks terrifying because they felt their overwhelming power. The people you mention are scared of the haki users in question in the exact same form and context as perona was scared of ussop's giant hammer balloon.
The only reference to what you say is the mangstream translation. All the other manga translations available (including one which is specifically more reliable) say something explicitly different. That is not something I am making up, I even showed you the translations. Heck, the wikia mentions the word intimidation only once and even then it is not quite in the context you are suggesting.
Innate to whom? That is a big difference here. If the spider has the innate ability to scare people ass nodt style (who triggered arbitrary fear regardless of context or circumstances) then the spider in question would scare everyone the same. However spiders don't have that ability which means the fear depends on the one feeling it, not the object of the fear. Shanks can use his haki but whether the target is intimidated or not depends entirely on the target and how it perceives the situation. Shanks made an actual threat to the sea king and so did luffy to motobaro (even beyond actual words) and the sea king and motobaro found shanks and luffy terrifying. Of course, I am not saying it was a rational fear either. It's just that those guys found luffy and shanks terrifying because they felt their overwhelming power. The people you mention are scared of the haki users in question in the exact same form and context as perona was scared of ussop's giant hammer balloon.
The only reference to what you say is the mangstream translation. All the other manga translations available (including one which is specifically more reliable) say something explicitly different. That is not something I am making up, I even showed you the translations. Heck, the wikia mentions the word intimidation only once and even then it is not quite in the context you are suggesting.
Not at all, they all imply the same thing and that's intimidate.
The Gorgon sisters, each translation says they feared Luffy temporarily, so you're rather in denial at this point to facts. You base your entire case on "semantics" that only applies to one case, when every other literally implies intimidate. As soon as you start making exceptions for different scenarios here and there, your argument is proven flawed, becauase good argument or evidence is always consistent.
Motobaro was intimidated into unconsciousness, even the Viz Translation, literally says that.
You don't even have a clue as to what CoC does, yet you keep using words like Overwhelm, Overpower ambiguously.
The fact is Rayleigh ultimately said, if Luffy used his CoC without being able to control:
He'd overpower the innocent.
Overwhelm the innocent.
Intimidate the innocent.
You can't even provide one scenario that doesn't show where CoC doesn't intimidate, and that's a fact.
Hell, the first time we see CoC is from Shanks, and what happened? It ran away, so it really was fair. You have no rational argument to make other than to deny without even giving a reasonable alternate based on evidence and that's consistent in every scenario thta CoC is used.
You're essentially saying that CoC clashes are literally not attempts to "overpower/ overwhelm" the opponent, when that's the definition. Your case here is baseless.
Not at all, they all imply the same thing and that's intimidate.
The Gorgon sisters, each translation says they feared Luffy temporarily, so you're rather in denial at this point to facts. You base your entire case on "semantics" that only applies to one case, when every other literally implies intimidate. As soon as you start making exceptions for different scenarios here and there, your argument is proven flawed, becauase good argument or evidence is always consistent.
Motobaro was intimidated into unconsciousness, even the Viz Translation, literally says that.
You don't even have a clue as to what CoC does, yet you keep using words like Overwhelm, Overpower ambiguously.
The fact is Rayleigh ultimately said, if Luffy used his CoC without being able to control:
He'd overpower the innocent.
Overwhelm the innocent.
Intimidate the innocent.
You can't even provide one scenario that doesn't show where CoC doesn't intimidate, and that's a fact.
Hell, the first time we see CoC is from Shanks, and what happened? It ran away, so it really was fair. You have no rational argument to make other than to deny without even giving a reasonable alternate based on evidence and that's consistent in every scenario thta CoC is used.
You're essentially saying that CoC clashes are literally not attempts to "overpower/ overwhelm" the opponent, when that's the definition. Your case here is baseless.
You are the one arguing semantics. Your entire argument depends on MS' mistranslation. Other than that you have the robin case who at the time literally didn't know anything about haki. Her guess of what happened is literally as good as the readers at that point...
True, the first time we saw conqueror's haki we saw the sea king run. But it is specifically and literally a fallacy to suggest because of that (and all the other cases you mention) that haki's specific purpose is to induce fear. The rayleigh bit was a mistranslation. Robin did say intimidate but there is the small detail that she literally didn't know what haki was or what she saw (she simply said what she thought she saw). The cases you mention are not cases of haki's fear inducing ability. They are cases of overwhelmingly powerful people who literally ooze power confronting weaker beings capable of perceiving said oozing power. They were afraid but only in the same way perona was afraid of ussop' balloons or toy roaches (unless the balloon/roaches also have a fear inducing ability or conqueror's haki, both of which seem unlikely at best).
I am not saying that COC clashes do not attempt to overpower the enemy. At most I have said that when it comes to clashes we don't really know what is going on. We have seen luffy vs doflamingo, vs gladius (short skirmish), chinjao and the guys at the colloseum and none of them seemed really overpowered (let alone intimidated) by his haki. Then we have lesser guys like hodi or ceasar and they did not seem intimidated by luffy either. And they weren't even haki users. Sanji did not seem overwhelmed by doflamingo's haki either (at least not in the context we are talking about).
