Discussion CP0

[kkck]

Well, in regards to haki, the VAs and lucci there is one more consideration to make. Remember the boa sisters who luffy fought? Luffy went against them with no haki whatsoever and still overpowered the two even considering the two of them were at least adequate haki users. Haki mastery alone does not make you a monster or even a proper VA level fighter as far as we know. Haki is just one factor in the whole thing, an important one at that but not necessarily the only one. I don't think lucci would hold a candle to most VAs even if haki was restricted in the fight to be honest.

 

[Azuma]

You thought Lucci was VA level?
I think Enel was VA level. I don't think Lucci was that strong. I just think Luffy was seriously weak at that point in comparison to the Top tier characters.
You can't be a VA without Haki btw so Lucci would be Rear Admiral level.


This is a bit much. You expect Oda to release enemies at this stage that can't touch Sanji? What would be the point?
I'm expecting there is somebody there who can give Sanji a proper fight.

---------
CP9 were so wack and only Lucci, Kaku, Jabra and Blueno were of notable ability individually.
The rest were no higher than what would be roughly Captain level in the Marines

(Although Marine ranks aren't fully based on strength its the best I can grade them at)

I disagree. Lucci was definitely VA level. Just because a random VA has Haki doesn't mean he would be able to keep up with Lucci's speed or strength. It is also important to consider that not all Haki-users are proficient at using all three types. The Boa Sisters were good at using Observation Haki, but when Luffy kicked it up into Gear 2nd, they couldn't keep up.

As far as we know, Lucci and Gear 2nd Luffy pre-timeskip were equal, speed-wise. Saying that Luffy improved at using it over time is mainly speculation. In other words, there's a good chance that VAs would have a hard time dealing with Lucci. It's also worth to note that the VA who appeared at Enies Lobby clearly respected Lucci a lot. Some of them even stated that they can't imagine Lucci losing to anyone. That, to me, sounds like something a weaker individual would say about a stronger individual. It makes little sense to me that a VA would say that if he could mop the floor with Lucci.

Naturally, this doesn't mean that Lucci would be able to keep up with the best of the VA. Smoker, Vergo, Momonga and the likes would probably defeat him. From what we've seen of others, like Kaizeruhige, who basically just stood and watched himself get chocked by another VA who was controlled by Doflamingo, there's a good chance Lucci could be on that level. Him vs. Dalmatian would even seem like a good and even match-up.

 

[Fox666]

The Kuja use Haki, but most of them aren't very strong. Momonga and Dalmatian both attacked Luffy when he was already exhausted. We have seen plenty of Vice-Admirals being humilhated by Whitebeard, Doflamingo and recently by Bartolomeo. So I don't think that most of the Vice-Admirals are that strong.

 

[Schabrak]

So I don't think that most of the Vice-Admirals are that strong.

Not that strong in which scale? They are the second strongest marine force after the Kong, Sakazuki and the admirals. Some are upper elite, some are lower elite, all are elite fighters, we just have to consider that almost anything is possible in the New World.

 

[REN KOUEN]

i agree that the world goverment is huge, and as the time passes and the dragons become more greedy, they are growing

so the idea of more government agencies and NEW government agencies, should come as no surprise when you consider that

 

[kkck]

The way I see it it is VAs who actively keep the peace in the new world. The world government at any time is dealing with basically every pirate in the world, the yonko and the revolutionary army. There is only one fleet admiral who does not actively engage in fighting, the 3 admirals who have apparently administrative roles and get sent to battle for very specific events and then the VAs who are numerous and have the authority to move as they please (which is why garp stayed one and perhaps why smoker is one right now). Heck, even when the marines were fighting the whitebeard pirates they still managed to keep most of the peace in other places, they could not possibly actually move all of their assets to the war. The VAs are ultimately the ones in charge of actively keeping pirates all over the world in check. Its not like the world revolves around the supernova, there should be plenty of pirates who are just about as dangerous as them with more time in the new world considering what we have seen. Even in the little tournament doflamingo has going on we have already seen quite a few people who would appear to be able to give luffy a run for his money so far. The tournament and the people it gathered should be a pretty good indication of how strong the VAs would have to be to keep the piece in the new world to whatever extent they actually manage to keep the peace.

 

[PLfighter]

The Luffy at Marineford, would've been able to defeat Lucci more convincingly than at Enies Lobby I believe.
However in the war, Momonga and Dalmatian completely outclassed Luffy when they met him in the war. Onigumo managed to catch Marco like a bitch, and thanks to his Spider fruit can use a Hachitoryuu sword style.
Look at Vergo, the current Smoker, and more importantly the fact that all VA's have Haki.
Something which Lucci doesn't have. Lucci cannot compete with those mentioned.
Rear Admiral for him.
Lucci was awesome, but if he bumps into Marco or a Logia, he's dead due to no Haki. Easily dead.

You have to remember, Bounties don't reflect strength entirely, but reflect the danger that individual poses to the government.
I'm talking about Kaku, who once Zoro got serious, was finished instantly .
When Zoro brought out his Asura, Kaku was put to sleep.
So Rear Admiral/Commodore for him. Since he has no Haki too. I guess same for Jabra he wasn't weak either.

I expect Pre-Timeskip X Drake to have beaten Kaku and he was a RearAdmiral but I'll accept I'm underestimating Kaku and Jabra too much. Not the rest though.

Regarding Commodore Pudding, did you forget what happened? A group of fishmen created whirlpools. Nothing to do with combat.

Level of supernova is not half bad
I realy wait for luci come back as bad ass pirate
if bellamy coby can power up why he can

And is somewhere confirment that onigumo is df user Kumadori have similar power Sandersonia and Marigold to maybe is just related to haki


Come back is CP0 is Spanda Father Spandine and two members from ohara incident.
Is not say with way garp help kuzan in don't have responsibility of helping escape from ohara.
Maybe Spandine shout up about his pursuit after Nico Robin and ship frozen becouse garp help him to get promotion to CP0.This package deal
i give you some and you forget about something.

 

[Ninomiya]

Naturally, this doesn't mean that Lucci would be able to keep up with the best of the VA. Smoker, Vergo, Momonga and the likes would probably defeat him. From what we've seen of others, like Kaizeruhige, who basically just stood and watched himself get chocked by another VA who was controlled by Doflamingo, there's a good chance Lucci could be on that level. Him vs. Dalmatian would even seem like a good and even match-up.

Mozambia and Stainless were the VA's in question during Doflamingo's playful attack at the meeting.
May I ask why you think Dalmatian and Lucci would be a good fight?
I have the volume myself and Dalmatian and Momonga literally outclass Luffy in an instant. Luffy was too slow for both of them completely.
Dalmatian > Lucci.

Although you could argue that Lucci could take out VA's Comil, Cancer, Stainless and Mozambia.
Also, in your point on Lucci, how many VA's discussed Lucci's strength?
Doberman did, he tells a story of Lucci and says "If that guy is on the island, then there is nothing for us to do".
I don't know if this is truly somebody saying Lucci is above them.
And afterwards, I don't remember many of the 5 were shown to be in total shock or awe of his loss.

VA Onigumo doesn't seem necessarily amazed. He just expects much from him.

Spoiler

At this time, his opponent is Luffy who has a 100mil bounty. Not such a big deal.

Onigumo in the war had speed that effortlessly caught and cuffed Marco.
Onigumo > Lucci imo.
My only issue is that Lucci can't touch a Logia while each and every other VA can.

What evidence do you have that Lucci could do any better against Doflamingo who is ridiculously powerful than Mozambia and Stainless did?

 

[MBVC]

Well, in regards to haki, the VAs and lucci there is one more consideration to make. Remember the boa sisters who luffy fought? Luffy went against them with no haki whatsoever and still overpowered the two even considering the two of them were at least adequate haki users. Haki mastery alone does not make you a monster or even a proper VA level fighter as far as we know. Haki is just one factor in the whole thing, an important one at that but not necessarily the only one. I don't think lucci would hold a candle to most VAs even if haki was restricted in the fight to be honest.

That's why I estimate Eneru > every VAs except only Garp, lighting is much much more faster than gear 2, Eneru's level is more like an outstanding candidate for admiral position, if he knows how to use COA then he's no different from an admiral.

I expect every single member of CP0 is equal or stronger than Lucci, something equivalence to the weakest member of CP9 can beat the strongest ones in CP8, CP7 etc...

 

[Azuma]

Mozambia and Stainless were the VA's in question during Doflamingo's playful attack at the meeting.
May I ask why you think Dalmatian and Lucci would be a good fight?
I have the volume myself and Dalmatian and Momonga literally outclass Luffy in an instant. Luffy was too slow for both of them completely.
Dalmatian > Lucci.

It would be a good fight because it could provide us with great indications as to where Lucci lies relative to other VA since they both use the Rokushiki techniques, and they both have similar DFs.

Yes, I agree that Luffy was too slow for them at that time, but let's also remember that a) Luffy was practically exhausted at that point and b) Luffy wasn't in Gear 2nd meaning that he would be outclassed by Lucci's speed as well, as evidenced by him having trouble with keeping up with Blueno.

Although you could argue that Lucci could take out VA's Comil, Cancer, Stainless and Mozambia.
Also, in your point on Lucci, how many VA's discussed Lucci's strength?
Doberman did, he tells a story of Lucci and says "If that guy is on the island, then there is nothing for us to do".
I don't know if this is truly somebody saying Lucci is above them.
And afterwards, I don't remember many of the 5 were shown to be in total shock or awe of his loss. VA Onigumo doesn't seem necessarily amazed. He just expects much from him.

Spoiler

At this time, his opponent is Luffy who has a 100mil bounty. Not such a big deal.

Fair enough. I'll leave that part at that. I must have read a different translation and there's not much point in debating how something is phrased without any confirmation about which one is more correct.

Onigumo in the war had speed that effortlessly caught and cuffed Marco.
Onigumo > Lucci imo.
My only issue is that Lucci can't touch a Logia while each and every other VA can.

I haven't stated that Lucci is stronger than Onigumo. On the contrary, I too believe that Onigumo is most likely stronger. What I did state was that Stainless doesn't seem too impressive as he allowed himself to get caught in a chokehold and seemed completely helpless. I doubt that Lucci would have been caught that easily and I seriously think he would've done more than just grab the arm.

What evidence do you have that Lucci could do any better against Doflamingo who is ridiculously powerful than Mozambia and Stainless did?

I have none whatsoever. I haven't claimed anything even remotely resembling this so I have no idea what you're getting at. There's absolutely no doubt that Doflamingo would obliterate Lucci.

 

[kkck]

That's why I estimate Eneru > every VAs except only Garp, lighting is much much more faster than gear 2, Eneru's level is more like an outstanding candidate for admiral position, if he knows how to use COA then he's no different from an admiral.

I expect every single member of CP0 is equal or stronger than Lucci, something equivalence to the weakest member of CP9 can beat the strongest ones in CP8, CP7 etc...

Lightning can be that fast but I really don't see how that would be an issue here. If that logic applied then kizaru would be the strongest character in the series by default. He is the one closest to the theoretical highest plausible speed and by definition way faster than enel. Then again we have seen rayleigh and commaders actually defend from his attacks. Even blocking lightning should not actually be an issue for VAs IMO. Haki can IMO take care of that considering what we have seen. The admirals were able to block WB's shockwave and we saw commanders blocking akainu's magma with their bare hands. Even rayleigh countered kizaru's lightsaber with a regular sword. Haki should be more than able to block enel's lightning as improbable as that might sound.

I still don't see what would make enel that strong though. True, he has an insane fruits but VAs are not just haki (which they all have and enel does not). They are actually fast, they are actually physically power and they have their own fighting styles to match that. How can enel win easily against any VA when his actual physical capacities did not actually match pre gear 2 luffy? True, luffy was immune to lightning however if enel actually was a person of true strength besides his fruit he would have been physically powerful enough to punch the crap out of luffy even without his fruit and easily at that. In turn his actual physical capacities were more or less a match for luffy's at the time which is as far as strong people are concerned fodder level physical capacities.

If CP0 is actually on the level with lucci then they really won't be a threat for the strawhats at all. For all we know, not even one of them should have something to fear here.

 

[Fox666]

Mozambia and Stainless were the VA's in question during Doflamingo's playful attack at the meeting.
May I ask why you think Dalmatian and Lucci would be a good fight?
I have the volume myself and Dalmatian and Momonga literally outclass Luffy in an instant. Luffy was too slow for both of them completely.
Dalmatian > Lucci.

Luffy was exhausted and not even using Gear 2.

And going by that logic shouldn't the vice-admirals be also stronger than Crocodile? But I think the war made it obvious that Crocodile is much stronger than them.

 

[MBVC]

Lightning can be that fast but I really don't see how that would be an issue here. If that logic applied then kizaru would be the strongest character in the series by default. He is the one closest to the theoretical highest plausible speed and by definition way faster than enel. Then again we have seen rayleigh and commaders actually defend from his attacks. Even blocking lightning should not actually be an issue for VAs IMO. Haki can IMO take care of that considering what we have seen. The admirals were able to block WB's shockwave and we saw commanders blocking akainu's magma with their bare hands. Even rayleigh countered kizaru's lightsaber with a regular sword. Haki should be more than able to block enel's lightning as improbable as that might sound.

I still don't see what would make enel that strong though. True, he has an insane fruits but VAs are not just haki (which they all have and enel does not). They are actually fast, they are actually physically power and they have their own fighting styles to match that. How can enel win easily against any VA when his actual physical capacities did not actually match pre gear 2 luffy? True, luffy was immune to lightning however if enel actually was a person of true strength besides his fruit he would have been physically powerful enough to punch the crap out of luffy even without his fruit and easily at that. In turn his actual physical capacities were more or less a match for luffy's at the time which is as far as strong people are concerned fodder level physical capacities.

If CP0 is actually on the level with lucci then they really won't be a threat for the strawhats at all. For all we know, not even one of them should have something to fear here.

First of all, you forgot the giant lighting ball, that one is good enough to do some damage. Eneru can use COO but not the other 2 types, he lost to Luffy because he was cocky, he could easily outrun Luffy's attack but because of the plot driven Oda didn't allow him to do that, for an example Foxy could dump Luffy into the sea after hitting him with the time beam but it was forbidden to do that.

I meant the weakest member of the CP0 is equal to Lucci in term of strength, but not all of them otherwise Law shouldn't have worried about them after what he did to Vergo and Lucci is nothing compared to Vergo who >>> Luffy in pre-time skip.

 

[Ninomiya]

Luffy was exhausted and not even using Gear 2.

And going by that logic shouldn't the vice-admirals be also stronger than Crocodile? But I think the war made it obvious that Crocodile is much stronger than them.

How did the war make that obvious?
Crocodile got damaged by Jozu who was a VA-level character.
Crocodile wasn't equal to Doflamingo who was joking around too. Nor was he equal to Mihawk.

like Kaizeruhige, who basically just stood and watched himself get chocked by another VA who was controlled by Doflamingo, there's a good chance Lucci could be on that level.

Why don't you know what I'm getting at? You did say this which is why I asked you how you think Lucci would do in the situation for you to assume Lucci would be on Mozambia or Stainless's level.
I'm not doubting it, its possible that Lucci could be able to defeat Comil, Stainless, Cancer and Mozambia.
Momonga, Smoker, Onigumo, Dalmatian and Vergo I would expect to win.

I could be underestimating Lucci too much, but it should be noted that somehow at Marineford, Luffy was shrugging off various users of the Soru and Tekkai move, something Lucci relied on outside his DF.

---------- Post added at 12:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:07 AM ----------

I haven't stated that Lucci is stronger than Onigumo. On the contrary, I too believe that Onigumo is most likely stronger. What I did state was that Stainless doesn't seem too impressive as he allowed himself to get caught in a chokehold and seemed completely helpless. I doubt that Lucci would have been caught that easily and I seriously think he would've done more than just grab the arm.

I mentioned Onigumo because you mentioned the VA's at the Buster Call.
Iirc, the part where the VA's praise Lucci a lot is in the anime. I watched the anime instead of reading the manga right up until Part II - Post timeskip lol.
In the actual translation its just Doberman who tells a story and doesn't praise him too much.

---------- Post added at 12:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 AM ----------

I expect every single member of CP0 is equal or stronger than Lucci, something equivalence to the weakest member of CP9 can beat the strongest ones in CP8, CP7 etc...

CP6's strongest member was Jerry who was a pile of trash next a single simple kick from Sanji. So yeah CP9's weakest can beat CP6's strongest.
If your idea is the weakest of CP0 is equal to Lucci then it would be cool as I'd expect the strongest 3 to give Sanji, Zoro and Luffy proper fights.

 

[Fox666]

Crocodile got damaged by Jozu who was a VA-level character.

Aokiji was also damaged by Jozu in a similar way. And what is the claim that he is Vice-Admiral level based on?

 

[PLfighter]

I think we can judge about power lewel becouse is pointles
We have schibukai witch so difrent power lewel.Hell even Buggy was shibukai.
We have giant VA how look weaker than VA normal saize.
Spanda was not strong mentaly or phisicaly and was director of cp9 becouse his father.
The best is do comparison to invidual not rank.
One piece is interesing becouse is so unpredictable.
And what we do when some VA be one position not becouse strengh but politic nomination.
The most propably VA level is very difrent like shibukai.

 

[Jorge D. Dragon]

Well I seriously doubt we can even compare CP9 to CP0...
Especially since in global scale of OP World CP9 look like fodder. Remember that Luffy took consecutevly Bruno and Lucci and before them he took several thousands of soldiers and Government agents, then he got even stronger during Thriller Bark Arc, but still his entire crew along with him barely managed to take down one Pacifista. Imagine how weak Lucci and entire CP9 are if now any of Monster Trio and Franky seem to quite comfortably be able to one-shot Pacifista... So I do believe any of them can easily take down entire CP9...
So if CP0 has something to bring to the story... then they need to be individually capable of taking entire CP9 quite comfortably, otherwise what is even the point to show Robin and Law beeing somewhat feared by their precense here?

I believe every member of CP0 should at least meet minimal requiriments for becoming Vice Admiral. And their leader should be at least around average VA level.

 

[Ninomiya]

Aokiji was also damaged by Jozu in a similar way. And what is the claim that he is Vice-Admiral level based on?

Now that's a good point.
Jozu has the diamond paramecia along with the ability to fight Logia's.
Aokiji from what we saw, was unable to take out Jozu until Jozu was distracted and looked away from the battle between them.
Implying Jozu was giving Aokiji a good and serious fight. Jozu fought on par with Aokiji for a good while.
Jozu took a point-blank range sandstorm from Crocodile and came out practically uninjured.
He blocked
Jozu is VA level
What more evidence do you need?

As far as we know, Crocodile can't even hurt Logia's. Whereas Aokiji and Jozu can.
I concede that Crocodile has to be like VA level though. He was too impressive during the war.

The most propably VA level is very difrent like shibukai.

There has to be a cut-off where there is a limit to how weak you can be as a VA.
Why else would it be set in stone that 5 VA's must attend a Buster Call?
If there was a serious variation in strength then they would be changing how many VA's are sent for every Buster Call.
Since 5 go for a Buster Call its clear you have to be particularly strong to be a VA in addition to having the ability to harm Logia's. (Haki).

Its impossible for the difference in VA's strengths to be like the Shichibukai's.
Not a chance in hell is there a gap from Mihawk strength all the way to a guy with Buggy's strength within the VA's.

 

[Razh]

There was a reason why CP9 operated in Blues and Paradise only. Every CP shown had some capable fighters so there's no reason to assume CP0 aren't dangerous in fights. So far, we've seen 3 that we know of. Maybe there are others. Maybe one of them is actually participating in the tournament.

So I do believe any of them can easily take down entire CP9...

Ones before the timeskip, maybe. Seeing how Oda handles his characters, I have no doubt former CP9 agents are a lot stronger now than they were before.

 

[Ninomiya]

Ones before the timeskip, maybe. Seeing how Oda handles his characters, I have no doubt former CP9 agents are a lot stronger now than they were before.

I'd love to see Lucci, Kaku, Jabra and Blueno again and much stronger.