Discussion Crews strength - what you expect from now on

[MiyamotoMusashi]

Just my 2 cents on the last few posts:

Regarding Sanji:
I think having him fight together with Jinbe and having him fight the strongest opponent of the SHs after the timeskip, namely Vergo, is supposed to demonstrate that even the weakest of the "Monster Trio" is at a level to fight at a really strong level (though there are no real tiers in OP considering the huge amount of versatile abilities).
The whole point of the timeskip was to enable the SHs to fight even the strongest characters in the world of OP and i think that succeeded without making them too strong or too overwhelming.
Furthermore, the term "Monster Trio" which was only mentioned once or twice in the manga itself and is more hyped by the fandom, was never a term to illustrate that Luffy, Zoro and Sanji are on a same level but that those three are just so much stronger than the rest of the crew which has not changed by the way.
Franky, who has had a few highlights post-TS, is essentially a Pacifista, only with more intelligence and a more versatile fighting style but without the ability to spam lasers like the Pacifista while the "Monster Trio" has been shown to have the ability to even oneshot a Pacifista (though whether they could do the same to Franky is debatable).
The "door incident" on Punk Hazard does not disprove this point because it was explicitly stated that the door was made to absorb any kind of physical damage. As far as we know, not even Luffy´s attacks could have done something.

To the matter of Luffy, Sanji and Zoro being on the same level, i think that´s also not true. Pretty much the entire manga, Luffy got the main villain of the arc as opponent who always was much stronger than his subordinates or the opponents of Sanji and Zoro:

Luffy got Crocodile who frightened all his agents, including Mr1 and Mr2 who were depicted as some kind of rivals.
Enel was like god compared to the rest of the opponents (though in this case, Luffy clearly had the advantage)
Lucci had a Douriki of 4000 while Kaku and Jyabura had 2200/2180 (@M3J: Luffy´s advantage against blunt attacks did not play a role when Lucci was in his leopard form) and Moria was the source of all the deeds on Thriller Bark.
While i am definitely not suggesting that Luffy is much stronger than Sanji and Zoro, especially considering that Luffy is more hurt than the other two after his fights, i still think that there is a gap between them while S+Z are depicted as near equals.
Airgrimes´argument that VCs and second-in-commands are always depicted as stronger than the rest of the crew does not stick with the SHs because the SHs does not have a traditional structure in the first place. Zoro is only considered to be the VC to outsiders because of his renown but unlike the Roger Pirates, the SHs does not have a VC.

 

[Schabrak]

Because there is no real reason to give a crew of 9[Luffy included] a postion of vice-captain. If training is any indication than Zorro is the second in power, if at all, because he lost an eye and trained with the top swordsman of the world while Sanji ran from Okama and a RA commander, who was Imo depicted below Mihawk in strength despite "winking" both Kuma and Akainu at times.

 

[Ninomiya]

I don't think oda will give up on monster trios just yet. He has shown a decent bit of them so far.

3 admirals
luffy, zoro, sanji
lucci, kaku, jyabura
marco, jozu, vista(at least those 3 were the most prominent commanders)
Oda has already said there was a guy named bronze in gold roger's crew. So we have gold, silver and bronze there.
3 types of DF
3 marine fortresses
And so on...

I think oda has a thing for the number 3, plain and simple.

I'll be honest, you've just managed to change my outlook on the whole series especially after you dropped the "Oda mentioned a guy named bronze in Roger's crew" line.
I take back my Monster Duo theory.
FOR NOW......

In my defense, I was remembering the Supernova's with Kid & Killer, Luffy & Zoro,
Then there is what seems to be Garp & Sengoku from the generation, Shanks & Benn Beckmann seem to be the clear top two.

And in defense for the Monster Quartet idea earlier, the only parallel I can think of was Arlong and his 3 main assistants Hachi, kuroobi and chew

Because there is no real reason to give a crew of 9[Luffy included] a postion of vice-captain. If training is any indication than Zorro is the second in power, if at all, because he lost an eye and trained with the top swordsman of the world while Sanji ran from Okama and a RA commander, who was Imo depicted below Mihawk in strength despite "winking" both Kuma and Akainu at times.

Why should size affect one's decision on whether there should be a Vice-Captain.
It all depends on how the Captain and crew feels.
We could see smaller crews that have officially titled first mates.

Is it confirmed Zoro lost his eye? (I would find it pretty lame if he did)

 

[MiyamotoMusashi]

Because there is no real reason to give a crew of 9[Luffy included] a postion of vice-captain. If training is any indication than Zorro is the second in power, if at all, because he lost an eye and trained with the top swordsman of the world while Sanji ran from Okama and a RA commander, who was Imo depicted below Mihawk in strength despite "winking" both Kuma and Akainu at times.

How do you know that Sanji was not trained by Ivankov who in turn had his/her way with Kuma? Seeing that Sanji has an attack called "Spectrum".

 

[Schabrak]

Why should size affect one's decision on whether there should be a Vice-Captain.
It all depends on how the Captain and crew feels.
We could see smaller crews that have officially titled first mates.

Is it confirmed Zoro lost his eye? (I would find it pretty lame if he did)

I wrote that an official position is not needed when the relationship between the crew members is clear as day and especially after Zorro has spoken a word of command once or twice in the past already.

I think many readers will be disappointed if he has not lost it yet. How nonsensical it would be to run around with a closed eye for days, just because of what exactly? Idiocy would be the only justification, I don't need any Vegeta/Kenpachi restraining stuff within the mugiwaras or even in OP.

We could, did we in the past 700 chapters of this manga? Pirates crews appeared from chapter 1.

How do you know that Sanji was not trained by Ivankov who in turn had his/her way with Kuma? Seeing that Sanji has an attack called "Spectrum".

I didn't intend to make it sound like that, of course he did train with him as well as what 99 other okama? Still Invankow is only one of many RA commanders, while Mihawk is the top swordfighter of the world. Strong trainer doesn't mean greater development, I don't like that cliche, but it insinuates that in this case Imo.

 

[Ninomiya]

We could, did we in the past 700 chapters of this manga? Pirates crews appeared from chapter 1.

Yeah. We did.
Bellamy Pirates were shown to have no more than 12 members.
3 unnamed and 9 named. Sarquiss being a confirmed First Mate.
Thank you very much for pointing out that Pirate crews appeared from Chapter 1, nobody else on the forum would have noticed if you didn't point that one out.
Thanks man.

I like almost everyone agrees with you Zoro is the First Mate, and I expect Oda to make it official eventually.

 

[kkck]

In regards to ussop, he is supposed to eventually go up against that sniper guy from BB's crew. That guy is most likely also something like a commander in BB's crew meaning that he must be to put it mildly insanely powerful. Ben was seen stopping an admiral on his tracks with a gun, it wouldn't be strange if this guy could do something vaguely like that. Ussop is going well with his plants so far but the main issue here is that he is only as strong as his plants are at any given time. Plants are good but ussop will have to learn at some point haki just so that he can add it to normal bullets in the future. It would perhaps be less showy but I am of the idea that eventually he will have to incorporate something else into his fighting style so as to not be limited by the strength of his plants.

 

[jaymizzo]

I get you.
Due to the circumstances between Vergo VS Sanji we can't confirm Sanji is necessarily weaker than VA I guess.
But I dunno... I just feel Oda is slowly preparing to underline that Zoro is the first mate and Sanji is just the cook.
So we're not too far from the gap widening in the Monster trio.

I dont think you have to be the strongest to be the first mate though (out of the crew members) its just a coincidence that most First Mates are quite strong haha. Logically Zoro is the first mate but it isnt really confirmed nor do the Strawhats operate that way.

I personally think Sanji and Zoro are VA level or above (between Admiral - VA), the Vergo incident, i seem to recall Sanji not having much trouble with Vergo nor did he seem to be having a hard time (aside from the broken leg) which he brushed off and continued defending with the same leg.

Dont think the gap will ever be that wide, they have always been close.

 

[HereNThere]

Dont think the gap will ever be that wide, they have always been close.

Yeah, if Oda were to change any dynamic in the manga, I don't think it'll be this one. I'll be honest though, Sanji hasn't really been given a good showing since the start of the time-skip. The best he got was destroying a pacifista and attacking a tentacle. Vergo was cool, but the showing really didn't help him in the long run.

As for the differences in training, just because a big name didn't train him doesn't mean he is weaker for it. I mean he spent two years running and fighting, I'm assuming non-stop judging from the brief flashback, 99 Newkama Kenpo Masters. And I'm assuming they were strong as they were apparently tough enough to force Sanji to increase his strength enough to oneshot a pacifista.

 

[Ninomiya]

As for the differences in training, just because a big name didn't train him doesn't mean he is weaker for it. I mean he spent two years running and fighting, I'm assuming non-stop judging from the brief flashback, 99 Newkama Kenpo Masters. And I'm assuming they were strong as they were apparently tough enough to force Sanji to increase his strength enough to oneshot a pacifista.

I'd say it does give a difference actually. There's being trained by Rayleigh, being trained by Mihawk, being trained by the Newkama Kenpo masters, being trained by Weather scientists and being trained cavemen on Torino island lol.
I'd say this could easily be an excuse for Oda to decide to widen the gap between the Monster Trio.

 

[KingOfNight]

Well continue here :

Oh yeah the A>B and A>C cuz B>C logic again, that doesn't work like that in OP
Also, show me proof of Luffy being inferior or equal to Jinbe please

Why Not ? Why doesn't it work ? This logic you're using is only right when either A, B or C has a certain ability that can work differently on others. Ace, Jinbi and Luffy don't have anything of that sort. Jinbi mocking him is more than enough proof for me.

Are you saying that Luffy's Jet Pistol against Jimbei during Fishman Island was his maximum? Do you seriously think that Jimbei would withstand attack such as Grizzly Magnum was? Such a dreamer, you are. I am conviced that Luffy after TS is stronger than Ace was ever shown to be. Why? Because he has been taught this bloody thing called HAKI. He showed just bits, but if he wants to take on Kaido or Doflamingo, he can't be weak. His Haki usage must be at high level. I am not saying that he can, at going all out, take out Doflamingo easily, or Kaido, but I am sure as hell that Ace would go down.
He had Haki, fine. Did he actually use it? No. He unconsciously used Emperor's haki, that is the very all. Luffy pwns Ace as Ace's flame is not going to burn through Luffy's Haki, if it does, the damage won't be fatal due to Busoshoku Haki. Luffy > Ace.

As Zehahaha mentioned - if A > B and B > C, then A > C is not necessarily truth. Why? Because this is not freaking math lesson, that is why!

I got little carried away, so sorry if I am a bit offensive, think I am not though. Sorry for off-topic as well.

You're calling me a dreamer, but the things you say in your reply makes my day very...very sad. You think Grizzly Magnum will defeat Jinbi who one-shot Moria when he was a giant, sent flying another giant several times bigger than Grizzly Magnum as well as block Akainu's punch without being fazed. Who's the dreamer here exactly ?

Luffy > Ace because of Haki ? Why ? So Busoshoku which was too weak to guard against Hody's teeth will block an Island buster ? So Luffy is stronger than Jinbi who even though was able to touch Ace, couldn't defeat him ? One of Luffy's strongest attacks is not even half as powerful as some of Ace's weakest attacks. Offense wise, Luffy is insanely inferior.

You're apparently one of those who believe Haki makes Luffy an awesome, unstoppable G. Well it doesn't. Haki doesn't mean anything in the new world.

 

[vagabond87]

Why Not ? Why doesn't it work ? This logic you're using is only right when either A, B or C has a certain ability that can work differently on others. Ace, Jinbi and Luffy don't have anything of that sort. Jinbi mocking him is more than enough proof for me.

You're calling me a dreamer, but the things you say in your reply makes my day very...very sad. You think Grizzly Magnum will defeat Jinbi who one-shot Moria when he was a giant, sent flying another giant several times bigger than Grizzly Magnum as well as block Akainu's punch without being fazed. Who's the dreamer here exactly ?

Luffy > Ace because of Haki ? Why ? So Busoshoku which was too weak to guard against Hody's teeth will block an Island buster ? So Luffy is stronger than Jinbi who even though was able to touch Ace, couldn't defeat him ? One of Luffy's strongest attacks is not even half as powerful as some of Ace's weakest attacks. Offense wise, Luffy is insanely inferior.

You're apparently one of those who believe Haki makes Luffy an awesome, unstoppable G. Well it doesn't. Haki doesn't mean anything in the new world.

Im just wondering how you estimate power of Luffys attacks.. can you share how you came to conclusion that Grizzly Magnum and Elephant Gattling are not even half as powereful as Aces "weakest attacks"? What attack from Ace you are using here to compare? Elaborate on this if you had anything on mind writing your post not to call you with one name that comes to mind...
As for Jimbei mocking Luffy after blocking Jet Stamp- Oda wanted for us to doubt Luffys strength at that time, make us wonder as imo Luffy is stronger than Jimbei but we didnt saw it yet in clear picture, its hinted in many moments. For me Zoro and Sanji are on level that Jimbei presents and Luffy is above it- same as Ace was stronger in moment of his death. We seen Ace fighting Jimbei as equal before Ace joined Whitebeard pirates, when he still was learning all by himslef without people around him more powereful than he was at the moment. Im sure that being Whitebeards second division commander made Ace quite a bit stronger than before joining WB pirates. Jimbei at same time was close to his absolute top strength imo as he isnt young at all- check how old he is- so his growth rate(if he trained at all in time when Ace was on WB ship, should be by all logic much slower than Aces).

As for Luffy and your
"You're apparently one of those who believe Haki makes Luffy an awesome, unstoppable G. Well it doesn't. Haki doesn't mean anything in the new world." written as reply to llaubacher.. just think about what you wrote. How would Luffy handle Cesar for example if he didnt had gone through haki training? And if he would have to fight someone like Vergo who was depicted as "CoA haki tank" then how would he beat that kind of monster? Before time skip Sentomaru who is CoA specialist proven himself impossible to beat by Luffy at that moment. Try to prove me wrong please.

I dont share your logic, even more- in this moment I dont see logic in what you write so try to defend yourself or just read more into other people posts and think more before typing. Some of the rules in One Piece are really clear for all, you cant make up your point of view as one that is how we all should look into One Piece if clearly you dont consider quite a lot of things that we seen during this manga.
The End.

 

[KingOfNight]

Im just wondering how you estimate power of Luffys attacks.. can you share how you came to conclusion that Grizzly Magnum and Elephant Gattling are not even half as powereful as Aces "weakest attacks"? What attack from Ace you are using here to compare? Elaborate on this if you had anything on mind writing your post not to call you with one name that comes to mind...
As for Jimbei mocking Luffy after blocking Jet Stamp- Oda wanted for us to doubt Luffys strength at that time, make us wonder as imo Luffy is stronger than Jimbei but we didnt saw it yet in clear picture, its hinted in many moments. For me Zoro and Sanji are on level that Jimbei presents and Luffy is above it- same as Ace was stronger in moment of his death. We seen Ace fighting Jimbei as equal before Ace joined Whitebeard pirates, when he still was learning all by himslef without people around him more powereful than he was at the moment. Im sure that being Whitebeards second division commander made Ace quite a bit stronger than before joining WB pirates. Jimbei at same time was close to his absolute top strength imo as he isnt young at all- check how old he is- so his growth rate(if he trained at all in time when Ace was on WB ship, should be by all logic much slower than Aces).

I had in mind exactly what I wrote. Want a highlight ? Here : "One of Luffy's strongest attacks is not even half as powerful as some of Ace's weakest attacks." Keyword : One.

By one, I meant Red Hawk. Which is weaker than Ace's Kagero or Shinka Shiranui. Grizzly Magnum and Elephant gun are pitifully weaker than Hiken.

How do you know Oda wanted us to think that ? Why not share how you came to this conclusion and how it was "hinted in many ways." If anything, it was probably meant to show us that even after the training, there are still others higher on the food chain. As for Zoro and Sanji being equal to Jinbi...no.

As for Luffy and your
"You're apparently one of those who believe Haki makes Luffy an awesome, unstoppable G. Well it doesn't. Haki doesn't mean anything in the new world." written as reply to llaubacher.. just think about what you wrote. How would Luffy handle Cesar for example if he didnt had gone through haki training? And if he would have to fight someone like Vergo who was depicted as "CoA haki tank" then how would he beat that kind of monster? Before time skip Sentomaru who is CoA specialist proven himself impossible to beat by Luffy at that moment. Try to prove me wrong please.

Keyword : Unstoppable. Also, focus on the "In the new world part." Try linking these two together and you will find out what I mean. In case you can't, I meant that just because he has Haki, doesn't mean he's tough in the NW. To put it more plainly, shit ton of others know Haki, so it's not impressive. To put it more plainly, just because you have Haki, doesn't mean you will beat the top dogs. To put it more plainly, Luffy was pitifully weak before obtaining Haki, and now he's above pitifully weak, into mid tier. To put it even more plainly, Haki doesn't make you tough in the NW. And even more plainly, it simply make you better than fodders in the NW.

I dont share your logic, even more- in this moment I dont see logic in what you write so try to defend yourself or just read more into other people posts and think more before typing. Some of the rules in One Piece are really clear for all, you cant make up your point of view as one that is how we all should look into One Piece if clearly you dont consider quite a lot of things that we seen during this manga.

Use that advice for yourself.

The End.

Cool story.

 

[vagabond87]

I had in mind exactly what I wrote. Want a highlight ? Here : "One of Luffy's strongest attacks is not even half as powerful as some of Ace's weakest attacks." Keyword : One.

By one, I meant Red Hawk. Which is weaker than Ace's Kagero or Shinka Shiranui. Grizzly Magnum and Elephant gun are pitifully weaker than Hiken.

How do you know Oda wanted us to think that ? Why not share how you came to this conclusion and how it was "hinted in many ways." If anything, it was probably meant to show us that even after the training, there are still others higher on the food chain. As for Zoro and Sanji being equal to Jinbi...no.

Keyword : Unstoppable. Also, focus on the "In the new world part." Try linking these two together and you will find out what I mean. In case you can't, I meant that just because he has Haki, doesn't mean he's tough in the NW. To put it more plainly, shit ton of others know Haki, so it's not impressive. To put it more plainly, just because you have Haki, doesn't mean you will beat the top dogs. To put it more plainly, Luffy was pitifully weak before obtaining Haki, and now he's above pitifully weak, into mid tier. To put it even more plainly, Haki doesn't make you tough in the NW. And even more plainly, it simply make you better than fodders in the NW.

Use that advice for yourself.

Cool story.

For all your questions that you asked me- all answers for those are in the manga. As you doesnt seem to be acting like you have over 16 years old I will not elaborate with you on current subject. Emotions make posts look rather bad and they almost always leads you astray from logic, logical thinking. Looking at what you wrote just makes me write one line- think and post whatever you like as I really dont care enough to make you see some more things in manga that you dont want to see. Your elaboration on subject only made it for me more clear that there is no reasoning with you. "Nice" comparing of attacks btw as you judge those only on what you think about them, not using examples of their effects shown in the manga.

I would say that Luffy overally is as strong as Ace was before he died. Zoro is in same league as Luffy yet he would get beaten up by his capitan, same goes for Sanji- same league yet he would loose in fight with Zoro. Not big margin between them but its clear. As for how would they fair against Jimbei I would bet that Luffy wins, Zoro as well, Sanji as he is for now is in my eyes equall in combat power to Jimbei. Maybe Im overestimating them but manga will show us soon at end of Dressrosa Arc more of what monster trio is capable of after two years of non-stop training.

 

[Ninomiya]

Sanji as he is for now is in my eyes equall in combat power to Jimbei. Maybe Im overestimating them but manga will show us soon at end of Dressrosa Arc more of what monster trio is capable of after two years of non-stop training.

Sanji has done so little in Part II I thnk its wrong for us to say he is equal to Jinbei just yet.
Not saying its impossible though.

 

[Sproumfch]

Nice thread ! It's sad I didn't find it either. I've got my words to say about it and I'd like to answer to the two people who are fighting above me ^^

So first, characters :
First of all, I think that all the crew learnt the basics of Mantra/Observation haki. I don't say Nami or Usopp are able to predict the enemy's move, but hear the things, they can (in Skypea Arc they explain it well : Observation Haki is based on the hearing). They knew that so they may finally have learn this basics (I believe it helps to learn offensive haki).
I'm expection quite all the crew to have the offensive Haki at the end of the manga. Now is too early.
Nami : A lot of new skills (we saw strom related and mirages ones) more range based, but I'm sure she can be usefull to help the crew (imagine Luffy's Red Hawk electrified, lol). Also for the navigation skills, it's Nami.
Usopp : he will have to learn Haki, it's obliged : Usopp will fight the Sniper from BB's crew who surely will have some DF, since they are chasing it. Added to his new strong attacks, he will be very usefull. Also his Kabuto weapon may be improved a little, Oda always have some ideas
Robin : the same as all, Haki. And clones since we only saw a "teleportation", or something like this (on the back of the dumb Fishmen). Also she is now able to give HUDGE spanks (look at the real size of the fish, this spank IS something). I think in size it's as big as Luffy's gear 3 (look at her legs in Fishman's Arc). With Haki, she'll get really strong.
Choppa : Same as all, exept he could learn "Soru" and skywalking, since he's quite strong in his Karate Form. But he may need Haki in future battles.
Brook : well his new skill with ice is really nice. And the ghost thing too. But I don't see him with Haki since his musik is already really strong (I'd compare it to Hankock's ability to make people turn into stone, or love her). He will just improve so things I think.
Franky : I think he's the one (in pair with Luffy) who have improved the most. He seems more durable, faaaaar stronger than before (his Lazer IS really something, and General Cannon too, look what Buffalo says , this thing is CRAZY). If he learns Haki he will become very dangerous.
Sanji : for Sanji I consider he was more or less the equal of Zoro before TS, now he is below. It's just a thought, but I feel it. Zoro did train, but nowhere it's stated that Sanji trained. Some strong guys chased him during two years, so he run and sometimes kick asses to take the recipies. But he learnt Haki, so MAYBE he trained with the Okama Queen for a while. Dunno. But he still it in the monster trio. His kicks are stronger and imbued with Haki, plus he moves faster and can fly. He's a monster
Zoro : nothing to say : he will cut everything that's in his way. Sorry I can't expend but that is all i can say (I'm still astonished by this). Ah, the only thing is that he'll be call later "Wild Beast Zoro", I bet it
Luffy : Lots of thing to say, but first of all, I have to speak to his DF. It's wanted by Od : Rubber, in this world, is nice :
- the bouncing effect added to the strenght of someone like Luffy is something. Just imagine that for you, you'll understand. It delivers very very strong punches : BB has already his actuall "physical strenght", but he got quite wounded. I'll come bakc later on this.
-the Gear second allows Luffy to move faster than anyone (maybe not Kizaru, loking foward to see, but sure faster than Soru users). I'm sure DD/Kaidou/BB and other will be slower than Luffy : it's a big advantage. Plus his attacks are stronger and now allows him to make FRICKING EXPLOSIONS with his punches. I can't wait to see the Gatling Red Hawk
-the Gear thrid makes him able to deliver hudge punches, someday maybe able to destroy an island, slitting it in two. If one day he makes it like Red Hawk it will be something, but I don't think so since the Gear third makes him slower, so the friction may not be enought to creat heat needed for the fire.
So, our Captain go all this skills and the energy/stamina/durability of a monster. He trained a lot of years (I counted 12, ten years from 7 to 17, and 2 during the TS) and I'm sure he is hard with himself in order to grow a lot and fast. Before TS he was already very strong since in the Marineford arc he was "praised" a lot (Akainu talking about killing him is very important, WB want to protect him, etc), and also we know him.
Well, now I think he is ablo to handle a Yonkou by himself, BUT he has to be pissed of in order to win. And he will be severely injured, but his punches are now strong as hell and Haki imbued. I expect the final blow on DD (if he fights him) to be a Red Haw Bazooka >> my my my ... Luffy will be injured a lot since DD's fruit seems to be a very strong one, but once again, he'll be faster than him and that's the very point.
For Kaidou, it's something else. Since Luffy hear that's he's the STRONGEST (creature) in the world, he will want to test him on pure strenght. And he may win if he is really pissed off (like here), and I think the very pissing of will be related to Momo, Kinemon, Wano & the actual Arc.
The point is that Luffy is the fastest and punch really hard his opponents. (Just imagine what will Akainu take, it makes me simply smile ) He will be the PK, so the strongest, even feared by the admirals and the (ex) Yonkous themselves. So he has to proove it, this strenght and ability to take down anyone, exept swordsmans (even if after Ts i think it's okay form him, more or less). We will see a lot of combats where Luffy obviously win.
I expect him to improve his punches in these fights. He will have to. Defensive, offensive and King's one. Otherwise we won't be able to withstand a lot of strong attacks coming from strong opponents (lava of Akainu or Big Mom's "acid" (it's a suggestion of attack).
As Zoro said, Luffy IS the key. And his wrath is too. All the serious fights will be here for a reason (DD controlling lot of people and doing awfull stuff, Big Mom keeping Jimbey as hostage or wanting to destroy FI, Kaidou taking over WanoKuni or something like that, BB & Akainu "killed" Ace, ect) and Luffy will be angry in all of them.


Now for Luffy / Jimbey, hell it's Luffy. But he can't really beat someone who save his life, so there won't be any combat. Just Big Mom kickin' the ass of Jimbey and then Luffy kickin' Big Mom's hudge ass. My thinking.

Thanks all for this nice thread, and hope you had a good reading even if you disagree : a made a hole hour to make it ^^
PS : sorry for the mistakes.

 

[vagabond87]

Sanji has done so little in Part II I thnk its wrong for us to say he is equal to Jinbei just yet.
Not saying its impossible though.

Yes I do agree that Sanji wasnt shown doing much of fighting since time skip. Its just that I see Sanji as he is now as idiot who blocked with beaten up body Vergos kick and gotten his leg cracked- as for how Vergo was depicted makes me believe that if he is capable of cracking Sanjis leg then there is very few characters that would not get their bones cracked or broken while tanking Vergos attacks. Punk Hazard made us question few thing about Strawhats training- Luffy was "defeated" by Cesar in their first fight, Zoro was put to sleep by Cool brothers and fallen of the cliff, Sanji gotten thinnner of his leg bones cracked.
Those things doesnt sound like win/badass performances.
And that idiot Sanji was shown to fight in par(not on par) with Jimbei against Wadasumi on steroids, the same one that took out Kraken with one punch- im taking this as kind of foreshadowing of Sanjis overall combat power being equall to the one that Jimbei has at the moment, Oda is good those foreshadowings in the story.

 

[KingOfNight]

For all your questions that you asked me- all answers for those are in the manga. As you doesnt seem to be acting like you have over 16 years old I will not elaborate with you on current subject. Emotions make posts look rather bad and they almost always leads you astray from logic, logical thinking. Looking at what you wrote just makes me write one line- think and post whatever you like as I really dont care enough to make you see some more things in manga that you dont want to see. Your elaboration on subject only made it for me more clear that there is no reasoning with you. "Nice" comparing of attacks btw as you judge those only on what you think about them, not using examples of their effects shown in the manga.

I would say that Luffy overally is as strong as Ace was before he died. Zoro is in same league as Luffy yet he would get beaten up by his capitan, same goes for Sanji- same league yet he would loose in fight with Zoro. Not big margin between them but its clear. As for how would they fair against Jimbei I would bet that Luffy wins, Zoro as well, Sanji as he is for now is in my eyes equall in combat power to Jimbei. Maybe Im overestimating them but manga will show us soon at end of Dressrosa Arc more of what monster trio is capable of after two years of non-stop training.

It's that fallacy I think was called "Ad Hominem." You dedicated the whole first paragraph to insult me when you realized you were wrong. You claim to not care enough, but that's just you trying to avoid posting these "examples" or "logical thinking." All of the answers to my question are in the manga ? Why not show them ? Surely you're not going to tell me to go read through 700 chapters without a clue on what I'm looking for, right ?

You call me for doing something (which I didn't do), but you proceeded to do it shamelessly in the second paragraph. You said I judge based on how I think, yet all you said about Zoro, Sanji, Luffy, Ace and Jinbi is completely from your mind without a shred of proof supporting it.

If you aren't gonna present any proofs or argue normally then just quit it.

 

[vagabond87]

It's that fallacy I think was called "Ad Hominem." You dedicated the whole first paragraph to insult me when you realized you were wrong. You claim to not care enough, but that's just you trying to avoid posting these "examples" or "logical thinking." All of the answers to my question are in the manga ? Why not show them ? Surely you're not going to tell me to go read through 700 chapters without a clue on what I'm looking for, right ?

You call me for doing something (which I didn't do), but you proceeded to do it shamelessly in the second paragraph. You said I judge based on how I think, yet all you said about Zoro, Sanji, Luffy, Ace and Jinbi is completely from your mind without a shred of proof supporting it.

If you aren't gonna present any proofs or argue normally then just quit it.

I dont see where I insulted you to be honest, I just described how reading your post felt. As for your "when you realized you were wrong you claim not to care enough"- I still feel "right" or closer to manga facts with what I stated before at same time. When it comes to pointing all that stuff to someone hellbent on one way of seeing things- his way- why should I search anything for you. As I felt only you were only poster out of those that seen my posts as response to yours- that doesnt agree with me.
Must add that I am not the one that started with "not normal" arguing.

Last thing- I dont want you to reread all of One Piece chapters.. As you want some clear examples- reread not 700 chapters but last 110. Since around time skip.
As for Sanji - look into breaking neck of pacifista, fight with Kraken, then fight with Wadasumi on steroids and how just before it Sanji wanted to deal with Hodi on steroids himself, then during punk hazard just take care to see how well he did in beaten up body against Vergo until ge got cocky. Vergo was said by Joker to be too much for Law to handle in physical strength, Law who is warlord with 440mln berri bounty would not be able to defeat Vergo imo if they fought longer fight and Vergo would not underestimate Laws cutting powers.

As for Ace and stregth of his attack- compare Hiken to grizzly magnum- for me second one seems to be attack with more power behind it, just take a look at how far Cesar was flying after it and how hard he hit tanker. Hiken was more about fire scortching target/ blowing up suff. I really dont want to waste more time on comparing stuff like that.
Shame that you didnt saw what I wrote about Jimbei and how he compared to Ace after spending time with Whitebeard pirates and earning 550mln berri bounty.
Add to it that Jimbei was really badly hurt during WB war so it surely taken soome- a bit but still- of his overall strength if you compare him to young people like monster trio he surely is slowly startimg to get past his prime, especially with Sanji who didnt suffered like Zoro or Luffy did(scars on their chests). Jimbei is 46 so he is over two times older than any of monster trio. Ace was around 21 when he was a perfect match for him and Ace kept on growth for next like year or two.
If you want me to just put it simple then Luffy>Ace>Zoro>Sanji=Jimbei as for how I see it now without getting into endless giving examples with you writing that you see things differently than me. Sheesh.. Chill out and end this as it wont take us anywhere.

 

[KingOfNight]

I dont see where I insulted you to be honest, I just described how reading your post felt. As for your "when you realized you were wrong you claim not to care enough"- I still feel "right" or closer to manga facts with what I stated before at same time. When it comes to pointing all that stuff to someone hellbent on one way of seeing things- his way- why should I search anything for you. As I felt only you were only poster out of those that seen my posts as response to yours- that doesnt agree with me.
Must add that I am not the one that started with "not normal" arguing.

Then why did you reply to me in the first place ? If you can't be bothered to bring any scans or even arguing, then why are we having this conversation ? You expect to write a post while continuously telling me to "Defend myself" and have me submit to your absolute and all powerful words ?

Last thing- I dont want you to reread all of One Piece chapters.. As you want some clear examples- reread not 700 chapters but last 110. Since around time skip.
As for Sanji - look into breaking neck of pacifista, fight with Kraken, then fight with Wadasumi on steroids and how just before it Sanji wanted to deal with Hodi on steroids himself, then during punk hazard just take care to see how well he did in beaten up body against Vergo until ge got cocky. Vergo was said by Joker to be too much for Law to handle in physical strength, Law who is warlord with 440mln berri bounty would not be able to defeat Vergo imo if they fought longer fight and Vergo would not underestimate Laws cutting powers.

So you see him fighting against a bunch of weaklings and assume he's on Jinbi's level ? Pacifista were continuously one-shotted in the war. That's no major feat. Hody is weak as shit. Vergo isn't anyone special. And no, I'm not willing to look through 110 pages for something that I'm sure doesn't exist.

As for Ace and stregth of his attack- compare Hiken to grizzly magnum- for me second one seems to be attack with more power behind it, just take a look at how far Cesar was flying after it and how hard he hit tanker. Hiken was more about fire scortching target/ blowing up suff. I really dont want to waste more time on comparing stuff like that.
Sham

Hiken is vastly superior, both in destructive power and overall offense-wise. Sending some weakling flying isn't something to brag about when compared to sinking fleets and burning countries.

Shame that you didnt saw what I wrote about Jimbei and how he compared to Ace after spending time with Whitebeard pirates and earning 550mln berri bounty.
Add to it that Jimbei was really badly hurt during WB war so it surely taken soome- a bit but still- of his overall strength if you compare him to young people like monster trio he surely is slowly startimg to get past his prime, especially with Sanji who didnt suffered like Zoro or Luffy did(scars on their chests). Jimbei is 46 so he is over two times older than any of monster trio. Ace was around 21 when he was a perfect match for him and Ace kept on growth for next like year or two.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say up there ?
Jinbi isn't really old by OP standards. Ace was 17 when he fought to draw with Jinbi. He died at the age of 20.

If you want me to just put it simple then Luffy>Ace>Zoro>Sanji=Jimbei as for how I see it now without getting into endless giving examples with you writing that you see things differently than me. Sheesh.. Chill out and end this as it wont take us anywhere.

I really don't understand how you made this chain and what led you to it. Most people have some sort of arguments they use, but not you. You seem to be simply stating it like that.