Discussion Crews strength - what you expect from now on

[kkck]

I feel like you agree with me but are still arguing lol. My point is not that they are equal, my point is that the difference between luffy and zoro and between zoro and sanji is very small which I think is also the point you are making. What I don't agree with is the notion that luffy can be significantly stronger than zoro or that zoro can be significantly stronger than sanji. IMO if luffy were to fight zoro or zoro were to fight sanji the scenarios would be those of long, drawn out fights which luffy and zoro would win respectively with only a small margin in their favor, perhaps kinda like how luffy has generally won his fights against most primary antagonists (except hodi or ceasar who were plain weak).

 

[Der Namenlose]

I feel like you agree with me but are still arguing lol. My point is not that they are equal, my point is that the difference between luffy and zoro and between zoro and sanji is very small which I think is also the point you are making. What I don't agree with is the notion that luffy can be significantly stronger than zoro or that zoro can be significantly stronger than sanji. IMO if luffy were to fight zoro or zoro were to fight sanji the scenarios would be those of long, drawn out fights which luffy and zoro would win respectively with only a small margin in their favor, perhaps kinda like how luffy has generally won his fights against most primary antagonists (except hodi or ceasar who were plain weak).

Yes, now that you clarified your view, I see we really agree about the core of the question I don't believe Luffy to be far stronger than Zoro either, at least in the present moment of the story. Actually, I don't even think this sort of scenario is really meaningful, since they are never going to fight each other as seriously as they fight their enemies. I only presented my argument because someone said Zoro's capacity might be far above Luffy's and another person said Zoro might fight Fujitora on equal grounds. These are the arguments which I really believe to be completely unrealistic.

 

[Schabrak]

What your wrote last week sounds very different from these words though. Oo

Zoro possesses approximately half of Luffy's strength.

If you want a precise evidence for this statement, take into account the difference of doriki between Kaku and Lucci, which was of 1800, almost half of Lucci's overall doriki of 4000. Sure, Zoro trained with Mihawk and is far stronger now, but Luffy trained with the Dark King, who might be just as strong as Mihawk himself. Moreover, even if Luffy had trained alone, he would still have to be stronger than Zoro, since the story's internal logic depends on his position as the crew's strongest.

And now:

I don't believe Luffy to be far stronger than Zoro either, at least in the present moment of the story.

Mr. Arashi trolled about Zoro's capacity, the Fujitora comment was a one-liner from DutchPhoenix without any reasoning back than, but now has. None was worth a drama. ^^

 

[Der Namenlose]

I already said that it might have been an exaggeration -- although having half of someone's power in OP's power scale is not neccessarily to be far weaker, as you might have noticed from Kaku and Lucci, who were able to do similar things in spite of their levels of doriki --, so I'm afraid your comment is quite meaningless now, isn't it? As for the drama, you were the one who created it. I only argued against their comments, the same thing you did against mine. There's no difference at all in our atittudes, except for the fact that you seem to believe arguments are wrong, even though you keep taking part in them. Furthermore, why did you continue the discussion if you believed things were resolved when I said it might have been an exaggeration? That's very difficult to understand, indeed.

 

[Schabrak]

Because you kept pressing on Zoro always being weaker, it's all there in our posts. I demanded something substanstial to be able to judge Zoro from the last couple years, but all you got was the doriki argument from nearly ten years ago and DC mentioning that only the greatest man might become Pirakte King[no suprise from me]. That's that and I don't see a reason to change my opinion that he could be just as strong until Oda or you deliver something to argue with.

As for showing whether Luffy is stronger or not, I have already cited Chinjao and the similes. They aren't dated, are they? If you want to disagree, that's okay. You have no obligation to agree with anything at all, being it true, false or uncertain. Just don't pretend you have an argument which truly suggests Zoro may be just as strong as Luffy, even though you have not cited anything to support your position, unless we are to count the same chapter which does not pass your five years test. Yes, I concede there is an existing, even though small chance they're in the exact same level, although I still don't deem the first argument I argued against to be possibly true -- i.e., that Zoro's capacity may be far above Luffy's.

Moreover, you have not pointed out how baseless my arguments are yet, since you did not present an exposition of why my genre argument is untrue. You are free to do so, however, but remember you would have to present a reasonable reply as to why all these similes are there if they don't mean anything at all.

So in the end the one with the strongest CoC and skills is gonna become Pirate King, that's what Don Chinjao said and that's what has nothing to do with the current Luffy/Zoro issue. What you are talking about is the end of the series, a situation so far away, it has no play in the current events. If Zoro has no CoC he won't be qualified to become PK, so arguing about that seems superfluous, wouldn't you agree? We don't even know if Silvers was any weaker than Roger.

Small, big, I'm still waiting for you to present me something showing that Zoro is not capable of being so or rather is not so strong at the moment, you won't, so I wait until we get something worthy of discussion.

I didn't write trolling Mr.Asashi for fun, it's meant that way. He trolled you into replying back without him every replying to your post.

 

[Der Namenlose]

Weaker, but not far weaker. It's also in my posts, too I still believe that's the highest possibility, and I exposed why I think that way. You are free to agree/disagree and argue/not argue, but I believe I was sufficiently clear about what I said and what changed in my opinion. Just as I said:

Yes, that might be possible -- if you include Sanji in the group, that is --, although I still believe the possibility of Luffy being the strongest in the crew to be far more probable. Perhaps that's going to be clarified in the fight against the Yonkou, or perhaps that's never going to be clearly pointed out by Oda. I would like to remember, however, that there is no sense of rivalry between Zoro and Luffy, but only between him and Sanji. Thus, if there is any meaning to such an ambiguity, I don't believe it would be friendly rivalry.

 

[kkck]

I would actually argue the difference between lucci and kaku/jyabura was indeed shown to be significant. If the point is made that the CP9 fights showed luffy, zoro and sanji to be relatively close then the case necessarily has to be that lucci was well stronger than kaku and jyabura. The main reason to think zoro and sanji are close to luffy is just how comfortable their victories against kaku and jyabura were while the fights against lucci was extremely close. Zoro and Sanji fought with transformed kaku and jyabura evenly. Is it that unreasonable to think transformed kaku and jyabyra would be able to fight roughly on base lucci's level? IMO not. In turn luffy fought human lucci evenly and needed gear 2 to match hybrid lucci.

 

[DutchPhoenix]

I would actually argue the difference between lucci and kaku/jyabura was indeed shown to be significant. If the point is made that the CP9 fights showed luffy, zoro and sanji to be relatively close then the case necessarily has to be that lucci was well stronger than kaku and jyabura. The main reason to think zoro and sanji are close to luffy is just how comfortable their victories against kaku and jyabura were while the fights against lucci was extremely close. Zoro and Sanji fought with transformed kaku and jyabura evenly. Is it that unreasonable to think transformed kaku and jyabyra would be able to fight roughly on base lucci's level? IMO not. In turn luffy fought human lucci evenly and needed gear 2 to match hybrid lucci.

true, but once zoro went asura mode, kaku was down in a single hit.
While when luffy used gear 2 many times and he still almost lost

 

[kkck]

true, but once zoro went asura mode, kaku was down in a single hit.
While when luffy used gear 2 many times and he still almost lost

Thats pretty much what I said earlier and what I am basing my entire current point right now.

 

[MBVC]

This is another point of view, I believe only the current Luffy and Zoro sometime in the future (future Zoro) have CoC, Zoro might take the same position as the Dark King version of the SH, the other besides Sanji might know how to use haki in the futue but all of them won't attain the CoC at all.

 

[jaymizzo]

true, but once zoro went asura mode, kaku was down in a single hit.
While when luffy used gear 2 many times and he still almost lost

Was it not stated that Lucci was the strongest CP9 by quite a margin?

I believe they are all close and always will be but I believe Luffy edges them a little bit. I would love to see them at their best.

 

[M3J]

I think Luffy's either stronger or equal to Zoro in power, who's likely stronger than Sanji. Nothing, to me, has indicated otherwise. Though Zoro would have lost to Lucci due to not being rubber, he also has a way around Luffy's gomu gomu with his swords. I see no reason to believe that Zoro isn't equal or less strong by a miniscule margin, to be honest.

 

[Ninomiya]

true, but once zoro went asura mode, kaku was down in a single hit.
While when luffy used gear 2 many times and he still almost lost

Kaku's doriki was 2200 yet Lucci's was 4000.
I hope this isn't your argument.

But Gear2!Luffy, Hybrid!Lucci, Asura!Zoro, Diable!Sanji were all in a similar tier with Luffy being the strongest, since if you saw when they took at the Pacifista back at Sabaody the 3 of them used some epic moves there but all 3 of their moves did pretty much the same damaging effect, or at least that was implied at the time.

 

[David Rose]

Luffy will always be stronger than Zorro and at no point will they be fully equal. That's the whole point of Zorros character. If Luffy wouldn't be stronger than him, Zorro wouldn't accept him as his Captain. Also you have to compare them on two different views. A direct 1on1 would be much closer between the two (Luffy would still win, as he can surpass Zorros blades with his Haki). If you just compare their abilities without them fighting the King's disposition alone is such a huge trump, anyways.

The Monster trio was always arragend in the following order: Luffy, Zorro, Sanji. While Zorro and Sanji still compete for number 2 on many occasions, Zorro still had a slight egde so far. Luffy is the undisputed captain. That's the whole point of the manga, after all.

Lucci was the strongest of the CP9 and the difference from 2200 to 4000 is quite a bit. Arguably this was just to show, that there always is a difference between the leader/captain of a crew and ... the crew. That's why he's the strongest after all. The only exception i can think of on the fly is Buggy, for various reasons.

 

[Kuza]

Can I see the link to that please?


You think Luffy and Zoro can stand their ground against a Yonkou individually? Seriously?
If Shanks can effortlessly stop the same punch that killed Ace, and he did it so easily the Haki on his Sword meant the magma had zero effect on it, you think Luffy can take on Blackbeard and stand his ground?

From what we've seen, Luffy & Zoro can fight Admirals but Yonkou's are supposed to be even more dangerous than Admirals.

Well after you put it this way. Well from what I've seen Luffy should be able to destroy BB as he stands. BB pre timeskip didnt have speed/power, the only thing he had were 2 incredibly strong fruits. Haki, as we know > fruits. If we imagine a fight like this Luffy should be able to teleport himself around and land haki enhanced hits on BB, and BB doens't even have means to block them, when again haki > fruits. This assumption is based on pre timeskip BB info, idk what he is like atm.
So atleast I believe Luffy actually can stand his ground vs BB, also he should be able to fight Big Mom on par, in case she doenst have some wierdass df.

Regarding Zoro and Shanks comparison, since they are both swordsmen. Shanks, ofcourse, is higher tier, but in terms of pure power in swordsmen match I believe Zoro won't go down too fast, which makes him able to stand his ground.

In the same post you qouted I told what I think about comparings of characters in OP. There will be different results for same battles applying different situations.
All I wanted to say is that Zoro and Luffy are top class fighters now, even though they might be below Admirals and Yonkos, but still they do have powers and abilities to stand their ground fighting strongest opponents.

 

[DutchPhoenix]

Luffy will always be stronger than Zorro and at no point will they be fully equal. That's the whole point of Zorros character. If Luffy wouldn't be stronger than him, Zorro wouldn't accept him as his Captain..

Luffy saved zoro's life.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkeM7XtILEA

Also you have to compare them on two different views. A direct 1on1 would be much closer between the two (Luffy would still win, as he can surpass Zorros blades with his Haki).

Zoro has the best Busoshoku Haki, luffy wont be blocking zoro's swords with just his haki.
Their specialty haki color is in the parentheses
Luffy (Haoshoku Haki), Zoro (Busoshoku Haki), Sanji (Kenbunshoku Haki)
link: http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/SBS_Volume_71

The Monster trio was always arragend in the following order: Luffy, Zorro, Sanji. While Zorro and Sanji still compete for number 2 on many occasions, Zorro still had a slight egde so far.

http://www.mangareader.net/103-2592-13/one-piece/chapter-485.html a lovetap from zoro and sanji goes K.O
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2592-19/one-piece/chapter-485.html taking in all damage and fatique that made Luffy go K.O + his own fatique and damage.

Lucci was the strongest of the CP9 and the difference from 2200 to 4000 is quite a bit. Arguably this was just to show, that there always is a difference between the leader/captain of a crew and ... the crew. That's why he's the strongest after all. The only exception i can think of on the fly is Buggy, for various reasons.

Zoro was perfectly able to kill both kaku and jyabura together , however story wise oda made usopp handcuff himself to Zoro, and he still was holding his ground.
Even usopp was confident he'd defeat those 2.
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2509-3/one-piece/chapter-402.html

 

[MBVC]

Well after you put it this way. Well from what I've seen Luffy should be able to destroy BB as he stands. BB pre timeskip didnt have speed/power, the only thing he had were 2 incredibly strong fruits. Haki, as we know > fruits. If we imagine a fight like this Luffy should be able to teleport himself around and land haki enhanced hits on BB, and BB doens't even have means to block them, when again haki > fruits. This assumption is based on pre timeskip BB info, idk what he is like atm.
So atleast I believe Luffy actually can stand his ground vs BB, also he should be able to fight Big Mom on par, in case she doenst have some wierdass df.

Regarding Zoro and Shanks comparison, since they are both swordsmen. Shanks, ofcourse, is higher tier, but in terms of pure power in swordsmen match I believe Zoro won't go down too fast, which makes him able to stand his ground.

In the same post you qouted I told what I think about comparings of characters in OP. There will be different results for same battles applying different situations.
All I wanted to say is that Zoro and Luffy are top class fighters now, even though they might be below Admirals and Yonkos, but still they do have powers and abilities to stand their ground fighting strongest opponents.

I truly believe there is a huge difference between delusion and reality. Luffy and Zoro are both weaker Shanks or BB by big margin no matter how one looks at it. I'm not sure how you used your logic in this argument.

 

[Kuza]

have you ever seen Shanks fight seriously? Have you ever seen BB being overwhelmingly powerful? He was defeated by Magellan, dying WB and would have been finished by sengoku and Garp if shank haven't shown up. Also have you seen all out Zoro fight after time skip? Have you seen Luffy at his limits?
As I said >with suitable situation and obstacles< I believe Zoro and Luffy can >hold their ground, not fucking win< against admirals or even known yonkos, taking in account their technics and abilities. Damn Zoro should be able to cut bb's ass in two, since bob can only fight df users effectively, at least per time skip.

And you can further post that they are weaker etc. without any given facts, analyses or anything, based just on your beliefs in yonkos strength.

 

[MBVC]

At first BB can use WB's df power to destroy Zoro's swords, not even Luffy can come close to him anymore thanks to the quake fruit.

2nd, BB uses blackhole to destroy everything, not even rubber can withstand extremely high gravity.

 

[Kuza]

And yet Luffy was able to land a g2 blow on him without big effort, and now his haki enhanced blows are way more powerful. Also we do not know how yami yami would effect a haki user, and if it will work at all. WB's fruit is insane, he can destroy islands now, but again are you sure a df power can destroy haki enforced swords?
No doubt BB is incredibly powerful, especially against logias, but it doesn't make him invincible, you see what I mean?
And regarding extremely high gravity, imho it's Fujitora who's got it, BB's gravity attack, that we have seen until now are not that effective vs a guy who can soru around as much as he wants.