Oh Pudding Memo memo no mi, and Viola's giro giro are also great options
I forgot a lot of interesting fruits, so decide to list* them here so you can click the link and check the ones youd like to pick. (source : picked the lists from wikia)
Here's a crazy Devil Fruit power I've been thinking of for some time. Suppose there's a DF that allows one to contain a ship or sea monster within a bottle or some other container. The being in the bottle is able to survive inside and after being contained for three hours, they fall under the users control and can be released at any time to do the users bidding.
Its two main weaknesses are that the user can't contain one whose strength is greater than the users and they must recontain their released slaves within three hours or the spell will be broken.
New Look, Crocodile was clearly not taking Luffy seriously, even after their second encounter, look at example 4 in my previous post. it's only when he started getting punched by Luffy that he realized his strength and was getting surprised (as you've shown above, or in example 5). It was already too late by then, Luffy was getting the upper hand and a few pages later he got defeated by gomu-gomu no storm. Luffy got underestimated up till the point of no return by Crocodile and nobody can deny that (I mean its there in the examples I've shown).
Now why was Crocodile so affected and hurt by Luffy's attacks ? And why should I even ask this question ? after all the answer is clear and simple : Crocodile's body is weak and not durable and Luffy is stronger. This is just one explanation among others. It is also your statement, and it is technically not wrong.
He did take him seriously, or else, we wouldn't have scenes where Luffy was literally on the brink of death, not once but twice. If Crocodile wasn't taking Luffy seriusly, he'd never have recognized his strength.
Also, it is the only explanation. From the very first fight, he even had Crocodile in pain from the mere strength and power of his grip. Luffy is just that powerful.
However if you analyse things carefully, it does have some nasty implications on future events .Crocodile was shown by Oda to be one of the superpowers of the world. He was quite feared and was even acknowledged by the other infamous pirates, such as Doflamingo or Blackbeard. Nobody ever stated he was weak or not durable. Remember in impel down when Crocodile teamed up with Luffy and the rest, Ivankov stated that he knows his weakness in order to keep him in check. If crocodile was truly weak Ivankov or Jinbei would've been enough to knock him out since they use Haki, without abusing his "weakness". Heck, he was even put in level 6. Now what I find wrong is this : How can there be such a wide gap of physical strength between Crocodile and Doflamingo ? or even between Jinbei ? Crocodile being beaten like that by pre-time skip luffy really puts him in the lower tiers, i.e. people who wouldn't last a second in the war between the marines and whitebeard for instance, and that goes against the fact that he participated later in the war, where he was regarded as a threat.
There are really no implications. First of all, Shichibukai is not a rank, it's a title given to Pirates who will side with the government in order to deter people from turning to piracy. BUggy is not powerful, he just has a reputation, and that's why he's a Shichibukai. It's not like the Vice-Admiral or Admiral rank which requires a certain level of power, it's merely a title of influence that the government use to deter Pirates. Shichibukai can be weak, they don't necessarily need to be powerful. There really is no implication with Crocodile being defeated.
To even drive the point, Fujitora and Marines want to do away with Shichibukai system is proof they know they can handle themselves without the need of Shichibukai. Simply is just a position used to deter people from piracy, a form of intimidation.
Nobody ever stated he was weak or not durable. Remember in impel down when Crocodile teamed up with Luffy and the rest, Ivankov stated that he knows his weakness in order to keep him in check. If crocodile was truly weak Ivankov or Jinbei would've been enough to knock him out since they use Haki, without abusing his "weakness". Heck, he was even put in level 6. Now what I find wrong is this : How can there be such a wide gap of physical strength between Crocodile and Doflamingo ? or even between Jinbei ? Crocodile being beaten like that by pre-time skip luffy really puts him in the lower tiers, i.e. people who wouldn't last a second in the war between the marines and whitebeard for instance, and that goes against the fact that he participated later in the war, where he was regarded as a threat.
Difference in strength between Joker and Crocodile is so clear. Again, it's exactly because Crocodile is a Logia that he's a threat even though he's relatively weak. Why do you think Ace's Mera Mera no Mi was so sought after?
We saw how Crocodile was so easily thwarted aside by Jozu, while Joker with little to no effort restrained Jozu co,mpletely and even used him as a platform to perch on whilst making conversation with Crocodile, and Jozu couldn't do anything. Joker even wanted him as a henchman, not even an equal.
And Ivankov didn't say he knows his weakness, he said he knew his secret. Nonetheless, we still see that Luffy who was vastly inferior to Jinbei and Ivankov was good enough to keep Crocodile at bay in his attempt to get to Whitebeard. That clearly didn't speak highly of his strength in comparison with Luffy.
More so, if Crocodile can be stopped by water which doesn't increase the strength of attacks, how much more by a Haki user which not only allows the Logia to be touched, but increases the strength of the attack?
We do already have a gauge of his strength, we saw his performance against Luffy, and it's not like he didn't exert himself or didn't try. He even used poison and still failed.
However, that's not to say we wouldn't see Crocodile improve in the New World. Smoker has improved, but at this point, he's no match for Luffy.
--- Double Post Merged, , Original Post Date: ---
The panel above shows that Perona was able to take down:
Luffy
Zoro
Franky
Luffy, Zoro and Franky are obviously superior to Perona in strength, however, due to a powerful DF, she's able to literally defeat the Monster trio in one fell swoop. Realistically, without such an inconveniently powerful ability, Nami could probably have defeated her.
Like I'v said, DFs do not always reflect the strength of the user. Perona without this DF would never be able to take down any of the Monster Trio.
Another example.
Whitebeard was the strongest man alive pre-skip.
Magellan with 1 attack defeated Blackbeard and his ENTIRE crew, with just 1 attack.
Whitebeard, Sengoku & Garp couldn't even manage to defeat Blackbeard with 1 attack; even the multiple attacks didn't do the job.
If we exercise the method of thinking that accepts "DF always reflecting one's power", then Magellan in ones eyes must believe the strongest man in the world is not Whitebeard, but Magellan; however, such thinking is erroneous.
Magellan possesses an ability that leaves anyone whose made contact completely incapacitated, and at death's door... except they get the antidote. These are not abilities exhibiting brute strength, but biological effects, or even far more abstract in many cases like the "Shadow DF".
Possessing a powerful ability is not the same thing as being strong, how, it can give a semblance of being strong.
Even if Magellan possesses a powerful ability, it's clear Whitebeard is still stronger because we've seen his strength, speed and his durability at Marineford which shows the gap in superiority between both characters.
Even Whitebeard or Shanks, or Blackbeard would die if they made contact with Magellan's ability, not necessarily because he's stronger, but because of how powerful and potent an effect the ability possesses.
Just to reiterate, over-dependence on DFs is not castigating the act of using one's ability. What it's reprimanding is the lack of physical feats referring to lack of physical self honed strength, speed & durability. However, many neglect these because some DFs can really bring one close to invincibility despite weakness.
Kind of disappointed that you didn't mention Foxxy, he was the prime example of being super weak if you take away his DF.
Almost all the characters you mentioned actually have some measure of strength/fighting skill that they use their DF to augment or enhance. Law and Whitebeard have their swordsmanship/Bisento skills, and an inhuman amount of durability, Kizaru, Marco, and Dofla still have their powerful kicks, Luffy and Akainu still have powerful punches etc. Just because these people use the abilities that are biologically part of them while fighting to kill/not die doesn't mean they are weak or overly relying on their fruits. It just makes them smart fighters who really want to kill their opponents/not get killed.
What are we comparing here? People who have obtained devil fruit abilities and overly use them but lack the physical strength and the ability to perform, or those who has devil fruit power and only rely solely on it but neglect their physical training or further enhancement of it?
Everyone has the innate survival skill, even a baby is able to show it. For illustration purpose - babies cry when they are frightened and their cries will catch their mothers' attention. Mothers are like babies' protectors.
If people are able to make use of the full potential of their devil fruit ability and continue to explore and strengthen it to their own advantage, it will be a good thing. When it comes to battles, the likelihood of winning will be higher.
As good as a devil fruit can be, it also has its weakness. When it is discovered by the enemies, then it will be a setback for the user. In times like this, if the person in question is diligent (and smart) enough to have a continual routine of physical and mental training, and other skills that he/she may possess, then there may be a possibility of overturning the weakness to strength if one knows how to utilise accurately, especially at the precise moment of life and death. Obviously there are other elements involved in a battle and winning it. But to stay on the topic of abilities and skills, we do have people who do not have the muscle, but they have good brains. Smart ones utilise everything that they have - devil fruit ability, physical strength and mental skills - to protect self and others. It is like our "street smarts" in our society.
Kind of disappointed that you didn't mention Foxxy, he was the prime example of being super weak if you take away his DF.
Almost all the characters you mentioned actually have some measure of strength/fighting skill that they use their DF to augment or enhance. Law and Whitebeard have their swordsmanship/Bisento skills, and an inhuman amount of durability, Kizaru, Marco, and Dofla still have their powerful kicks, Luffy and Akainu still have powerful punches etc. Just because these people use the abilities that are biologically part of them while fighting to kill/not die doesn't mean they are weak or overly relying on their fruits. It just makes them smart fighters who really want to kill their opponents/not get killed.
I think you misunderstood what I said or what I was getting across when I was talking about these characters. This is what you read and where you most likely got the wrong idea:
I wasn't saying they are "over-dependent" for using their abilities. The point I was getting across is "overuse of DF" doesn't mean attacking via DF all the time, it simply means being weak outside of DF power, and Foxy or Buggy would be perfect examples of this.
Like I pointed out very early on, Van Augur said DF users who lose their ability were weak and pathetic once ability is taken away, but he says the opposite is true in Ace's case even though 100% of the attacks he threw at Blackbeard were DF-based. What Van Augur meant was, Ace is physically strong, fast and durable, therefore, he's not overly-dependent.
If Joker or Law or Whitebeard were overly dependent on their abilities, we wouldn't see how durable they were, and would be easily defeated, but we know otherwise.
Other point being driven is, abilities can make one stronger than they'd normally appear to be, and that's why I've brought up characters like Perona, Buggy, Foxy, Crocodile and Moriah (who lost to pre-skip Luffy), they just possess extremely powerful abilities.
What are we comparing here? People who have obtained devil fruit abilities and overly use them but lack the physical strength and the ability to perform, or those who has devil fruit power and only rely solely on it but neglect their physical training or further enhancement of it?
There's no DF user who doesn't use their abilities 100% of the time, so, if I were to say Whitebeard for example was DF dependent, I'd be wrong because he's physically very strong, durable and has trained his physically parameters to the highest of standards. It means his strength isn't simply as a result of a powerful DF.
What I'm saying is people who possess DFs, but are physically weak, are people who can be regarded as DF dependent going by what Van Augur has assessed being DF dependency as. To simplify what I' trying to get across, physically strong people (irregardless of when they get a DF) are not DF dependent; physically weak people (irregardless of when they get a DF) are DF dependent.
I personally wouldn't say Croc was weak cause he got beat by Luffy. The fight was centuries ago, back when everyone sucked and the manga hadn't been running long enough to see a significant increase in power scale. It's not much different to how the kages in Naruto seemed comparably stronger when they were resurrected in the end part of the series than when they first appeared in the Konoha invasion. It's just power creep in manga. Mihawk would have probably looked just as bad to us now if he'd gone all out against Zoro back then. I wouldn't be surprised if Haki was something Oda thought about over the course of the manga in order to add another dimension to fighting in One Piece. After its introduction, I don't believe New World veterans like Croc couldn't use it to some extent while Kuja scrubs can.
I don't think Oda already had in mind the haki concept by the start of the manga, or at least had if full completed, as it took almost 500 chapters to name it properly.
Plotwise, it's hard to think that big names like Croc or Moria didn't know how to use it by the time that Luffy fought them. First because the duo were/are forces to be feared by the wg and other pirates and fought against names thare already were or would be considered a yonkou. But they didn't use haki because the concept was not completed or couldn't be used by that time. Eve in the WB War we saw few moments were haki is used, even by vice admirals, who must know how to use it.
For me, haki is a great concept that saves the author ass. Because he don't have to think so much about how much a DF interact against other, like ee sawn on Alabasta e Skypea sagas. After those two sagas, how mucha DF relate to another had a lesser impact on the plot. The last time we saw it been important was whe Ace got killed (and by what we saw already, even if the magu fruit was no superior to the mera fruit, but Akainu haki was more powerfun than Aces, the result would be the same).
I do remember we had an exchange me and @Hannibal Psyche about Haki, and the Crocodile case
I have no doubts that if Luffy fought against Crocodile in later stage of the story and not during the Arabasta arc, the fight would've been quite tough
For example I believe Crocodile knows about Haki and how to use it... I don't think Oda had a general idea about Haki and its types during that stage of the story (perhaps Haoshoku and that's debatable for me), so in case Crocodile appears again (which he'll do), then we'll see him with the usual Armament Haki and Hardening as well... I don't think he learned it during the timeskip, because that would be like saying that the Admirals/VA/DD or any established strong characters learned it during that time, which is absurd
Now on the topic, well I think being dependent on your DF means neglecting improving your physical abilities (speed, strength, stamina) and hand to hand combat. For example, Akainu/Kizaru despite constantly using their DF, are probably strong fighters (probably Rokushiki) and must possess a good amount of physical strength, stamina etc
I do remember we had an exchange me and @Hannibal Psyche about Haki, and the Crocodile case
I have no doubts that if Luffy fought against Crocodile in later stage of the story and not during the Arabasta arc, the fight would've been quite tough
For example I believe Crocodile knows about Haki and how to use it... I don't think Oda had a general idea about Haki and its types during that stage of the story (perhaps Haoshoku and that's debatable for me), so in case Crocodile appears again (which he'll do), then we'll see him with the usual Armament Haki and Hardening as well... I don't think he learned it during the timeskip, because that would be like saying that the Admirals/VA/DD or any established strong characters learned it during that time, which is absurd
Oda didn't know about Haki? where is the evidence to suggest that? or official statement?
Wouldn't that be like saying Togashi didn't know about Nen before he created HxH simply because he didn't reveal it at the beginning of the story?
Or that Toriyama didn't know about Super Saiyans just because it wasn't initially revealed?
No one reveals everything at the start of a story, or else, people wouldn't be intrigued or interested in reading further.
Also, I'm pretty sure it requires knowing well in advanced how a story will progress before it becomes a serialized Manga or Animated.
Oda revealed the first Logia within the very first 100 chapters.
The Logia wasn't even a high rank, was a mere commander rank.
I don't need to point this out, but this is Smoker.
Why would Oda create a low-ranked Logia who couldn't be defeated?
Even if you want to go with Oda was going to rely on DF"weakness", Smoke has no weakness. You can't exactly splash water on Smoke, or toss anything over Smoke to make it solid, therefore, Oda must have known about Haki well in advanced, and very likely before he even published the story.
It makes no sense to introduce a character with no natural weakness into the story at such an early stage. It would be like creating Fire Pokemon without Water Pokemons. I don't think Mangakas just wake up 1 morning, decide to write a story, have a vague premise, get serialzied and then develop the story as it goes, I'm pretty certain a lot of planning would have taken place first.
What you're saying requires one to believe that Oda created Fire without Water to put it out, no respectable author would create an ability that couldn't be countered. I'm sure even his Editor would have flagged that up, and questioned it, creating a Manga is a business too, it needs to be as well-done as possible.
For example, we're told that Ohara was destroyed about 20-22 years ago in One Piece history, are you going to say that Ohara's destruction is not a part of the One Piece history? are you going to reject it? I'd assume not, all flashbacks are a fundamental and hard fact of One Piece's timeline and history.
We're told that before Luffy was born, 11 years before he was born (or 30 years from the current time-line), Garp destroyed Chinjao's Drill with his Armament Haki, are you going to reject this flashback? Isn't it a part of the history?
So, even according to One Piece's history, Haki existed.
Or, take Roger for example, would you seriously believe that he doesn't possess Conqueror's Haki as soon as we're introduced to it, and learned that his first-mate possessed it? I doubt anyone would reject of have any disbelief in Roger having all forms of Haki.
All time in One Piece is relative. Future events explain the past.
Like I stated before, at the very beginning of One Piece (Chapter 1), we see Shanks intimidated the Sea King right after it bit him. What sort of animal simply flees whilst eating up its prey? Clearly, something happened for it to have suddenly retreated, unfortunately at this point, it's all a mystery to us.
However, as soon Oda explained Haki in Chapter 597, we can look back at previous Chapters (Chapter 1), and understand what exactly transpired there, it was Conqueror's Haki.
Even after we're shown Haki in all the few mini-arcs prior to Marineford (Skypiea - Sabaody - Amazon Lily - Impel Down), we see Haki and Crocodile didn't even demonstrate Observation Haki at either Impel Down or Marineford.
If this claim that Oda forgot Haki at the beginning of the story was true, after seeing Enel with Observation Haki, we'd have seen Oda correct Crocodile's lack of Haki in both Marineford and Impel down. Rather than that, we see Crocodile get hit by Luffy once again, and even by Jozu, nothing was corrected, so it implies Oda was happy with his representation of Crocodile. Second time Luffy has stopped it, it's not exactly a look that makes Crocodile look any stronger than he was when we initially get acquainted with him.
Truth of the matter is, if Crocodile possessed either Observation Haki or Armament, he'd have shown it. Someone who plans to take down a country in order to establish his own reign over the world doesn't fight to the best of his abilities. What sort of veteran forgest they can use Haki? It's a fundamental part of fighting if one possesses it. It's almost like claiming that a DF user forgets to use their DF, it's not entertain-able, if he possessed Haki, he'd simply have shown it, and he didn't.
With that said, even if we see Crocodile use Haki in future which we probably will, it'd only mean he just learnt to use it. Oda has already given us a back-log by which to understand why some people don't have Haki. He said some people can train and never unlock it in their life, while others do, it's all down to talent. Even Coby has demonstrated Haki, it's not like Oda forgot about Crocodile, an ex Shichibukai. The rationale used is no different to saying that Buggy must have Haki because he was once on Roger's ship. If that were the case, Oda would have expressed it in his abilities.
To ultimately reject the existence of Haki prior to Crocodile is to deny:
Oda's ability as a writer.
and the history of One Piece - we can't pick and choose what historical parts of One Piece to accept, it's either we accept all, or pick and choose to fit our own beliefs which isn't ideal.
By the time we even read the entire One Piece, or even before we do so, we'll read certain things now, and go back many chapters and see exactly what they meant.
Example, Oda tells us we can learn about Sabo's life in the Anime meaning it's Canon.
Sabo at the age of 19 (same age as Ace before death) was shown to be a Haki user. This time line suggests that Haki even existed at the time that Luffy was 17 (being that Sabo + ace 2 years older), and this was when he fought Crocodile. Even this suggest that Haki was around during Crocodile's fight with Luffy, so there's really no reason to claim Crocodile had it when everything he's done shows no evidence of it.
Now on the topic, well I think being dependent on your DF means neglecting improving your physical abilities (speed, strength, stamina) and hand to hand combat. For example, Akainu/Kizaru despite constantly using their DF, are probably strong fighters (probably Rokushiki) and must possess a good amount of physical strength, stamina etc
This is exactly what I've pointed out, and the Manga has explicitly shown this along with actual confirmation from Oda about this being true.
A character's strength isn't fully reflected by their ability as most don't do that. Perona defeated Luffy - Franky - Zoro simply becaue of her ability, but had she fought them with her actual strength, we can be certain they'd all easily defeat her, even Nami would probably be able to do this.
This is why I'm perplexed by how people claim Crocodile to be stronger than we've seen him despite the fact that Luffy's punches hurt him. Surely, those punches would never have hurt the likes of Akainu, Kizaru or Aokiji even if they weren't DF users or simply deactivated them.
Oda has even gone out of his way to make the point that even though DFs don't necessarily equate into strength as stated in SBS. He's even done so explicitly in the Manga too. He's pointed out that people can become renown and appear powerful simply because of the DF they possess.
Rebecca said she needed the power of the Mera Mera no Mi (in addition to her own power) to take down Joker. If they didn't make people more dangerous/threatening, then I wonder why she (along with all the gladiators) wants the Mera Mera no Mi for that purpose.
Pretty sure even Hajrudin said the same thing saying he'll become King of all Giants via the Mera Mera no Mi, all those competing for the Mera Mera no Mi were all in it because they wanted to get stronger, nicely pointed out.
Ideo himself says the exact same thing about getting stronger as a result of obtaining the Mera Mera no Mi.
The power of most DFs don't require the strength of their user just like a man with a knife doesn't get stronger because he's wielding a knife, simply becomes more dangerous - therefore, they would make relatively weak people like Rebecca appear stronger. People like Crocodile or Moriah who don't have Haki owe their success to powerful DFs, not everyone is born with the talent of Sabo, Ace, Luffy, Zoro and the Sanjis of this world who are naturally strong and don't neglect physical training.
@Hannibal Psyche Too many strawmen in your post bro. The point is that combat at the time of Crocodiles defeat had not been developed to the level we see it at today. It's obviously because it was at the early stages of the manga, and whether or not Oda had advanced techniques like haki planned, he wasn't going to show it to us. Croc was supposed to typify the kind of strength elite pirates like the Shichibukai possessed but it just so happened that the general standard of strength at the time was pretty low, making Croc now appear weak to us. We were also led to believe at the time that Ace and Smoker would stalemate because their abilities cancelled each other out but now we know better. Haki, planned or not, was not something that could be introduced at the time and so it was effectively ignored. Characters like Ace who had haki, was written as if he didn't... and characters like Crocodile who is also a New World Veteran with ample opportunities to learn haki, was also written as if he didn't.
@Hannibal Psyche Too many strawmen in your post bro. The point is that combat at the time of Crocodiles defeat had not been developed to the level we see it at today. It's obviously because it was at the early stages of the manga, and whether or not Oda had advanced techniques like haki planned, he wasn't going to show it to us. Croc was supposed to typify the kind of strength elite pirates like the Shichibukai possessed but it just so happened that the general standard of strength at the time was pretty low, making Croc now appear weak to us.
Doesn't matter if it was the early stage of the Manga, just because something isn't revealed doesn't mean Oda didn't already have it planned out, that's a logical fallacy. Everything written from the beginning to the present is chronologically accurate and historical fact, so there's really nothing to dispute unless you really do have offical word from Oda. When has he said or implied he portrayed the first half of OP inaccurately?
Also, your argument is flawed:
Crocodile was a Shichibukai.
Shichibuaki are not a level of strength like Vice-Admiral or Admiral, its simply a position given as long as one holds influence to deter Pirates.
Even Buggy is a Shichibukai because the position is not a measure of strength, just deterrence.
We were also led to believe at the time that Ace and Smoker would stalemate because their abilities cancelled each other out but now we know better. Haki, planned or not, was not something that could be introduced at the time and so it was effectively ignored. Characters like Ace who had haki, was written as if he didn't...
Led to believe? No. It's a fact, Smoke and Fire are symbiotic, it wouldn't make sense for Fire to be able to burn Smoke, that was Oda simply revealing the nature of Devil fruits. What we learnt there was absolutely correct, even Ace explicitly states so himself. Based on abilities alone, they'd stalemate, that's not disputable.
If we even go back to look at the context prior to their clash, Ace's intention was to seek Blackbeard, and he'd been aggressively going from town to town, so he had no time to play with Smoker. He didn't even spend much time with Luffy, spent a brief moment together, and he went onwards to continue his search. If he wanted to take on Smoker there and then, he would have.
Ace wasn't written to not have or possess Haki? No, we just weren't well acquainted with him would be the far more accurate thing to say. When did we see Dragon? at Logue town, within the first 100 chapters. We were introduced to Dragon, the most wanted man in One Piece, and we had no clue. Does that mean that because we didn't know it then, that he wasn't the most wanted? No, it doesn't change that fact, it'd be bad logic to think so. It's no different to Ace, just because we didn't know he was a Haki user doesn't mean he didn't (nor does it mean Dragon wasn't a Haki user too).
You're revolving your entire belief system around Crocodile MUST have Haki, as if he's the strongest individual in One Piece. He was the FIRST Shichibukai to be defeated, I don't think that's how one portrays any character in positive light. His strength is clearly as a result of possessing a powerful DF. Oda wouldn't have had Crocodile defeated if he didn't want to, you're suggesting Oda didn't know how his story was going to develop simply because you overestimate Crocodile.
With this benefit of the doubt being given despite Oda simply crushing it, I could claim that Buggy must know Haki since he was a Roger Pirate, and that his defeat or stalemate to Luffy was a mistake, and make up excuses. We just have to accept how Oda has portrayed his characters, and his defeat is no less a portrayal than his title as a Shichibukai.
If there was a truth to your claim about Oda not having prepared and what not:
Crocodile would have shown to possess Haki in Impel Down.
Or in Marineford.
He was even belittled by Luffy again as if that makes him look any better than he did already.
Joker even invited him to be an underling for him, so much for "Shichibukai level", or the "embodiment of strength" - Joker absolutely disrespected him.
Oda's portrayal of Crocodile simply doesn't match the lofty pedestal you've placed him on; he didn't even attempt to redeem him or make him look any better than he did. Crocodile also got put in his place by Jozu. If he was supposed to represent the most powerful Pirate, he'd have done in these arcs, but Oda didn't.
End of the day, Crocodile was planning to takeover Alabasta and steal the Ancient Weapon to take over the world. Baroque works, Robin, these were individuals and a syndicate he'd been working with and creating for 20 years. Why would someone planning for this long not give it their best? If he possessed Haki at such a desperate time, he'd simply have used it.
The bottom line still remains, just because we're not introduced to all these concepts doesn't mean Oda wasn't developing the story with them in mind. A story never reveals all it has to offer, it slowly introduces them, and the more we learn in the future, the more we understand actions of the past.
Oda explicitly stated that the vast majority of people go through life not knowing they possess Haki, and some as hard as they try will simply never succeed in ever making use of it. What exactly excludes Crocodile from not possessing Haki? Even Moriah didn't possess Haki, what they do possess are powerful abilities. It's been made clear by Oda that DFs are a quick way to become powerful, and we've seen time and time again, DFs can even make relatively weak/untalented people stronger than they really are.
That's a really nice story. 10/10....Though I wish it actually addressed what I said. I mean, what I I actually said was that regardless of whether haki was planned or unplanned, it was something that had no room in the story at the time. Introducing end-game advanced techniques at that stage of the manga would have caused power inflation, and at that point, Oda would have either had to raise the general standard of strength or the power levels of the villains from then would have seemed unimpressive. It might have been planned, it might not have. Who knows, but it wouldn't surprise me if it were unplanned since you know, these authors aren't wizards as much as we like to believe they are. They get inspiration all the time and make additions and/or changes to their story accordingly. To what extent is anyone's guess, so it's pretty ridiculous to say stuff like "it has to be planned because herp, he's like an author and stuff, derp"
Led to believe? No. It's a fact, Smoke and Fire are symbiotic, it wouldn't make sense for Fire to be able to burn Smoke, that was Oda simply revealing the nature of Devil fruits. What we learnt there was absolutely correct, even Ace explicitly states so himself. Based on abilities alone, they'd stalemate, that's not disputable
Except they wouldn't because by your own admission Ace knows how to use haki. Ace made it sound like there would be no victor if both he and Smoker clashed and because haki wasn't introduced at the time, we accepted it as truth but now we know better. Again, this was the point which you you seemed to have missed in my original post. Please less long stories and more reading.
Oda explicitly stated that the vast majority of people go through life not knowing they possess Haki, and some as hard as they try will simply never succeed in ever making use of it
It's pretty obvious that the majority of people that go their whole lives not knowing they have haki are civilians and fodders. Haki would be a pretty standard ability among top fighters.
But nah gaiz, Kuja scrubs with power levels of OVER MINUS 9000 know how to use haki,....while Crocodile who's a known silver medalist with experience fighting haki users in the New World, cannot. He probably just spammed them with sand burials or something I suppose.
That's a really nice story. 10/10....Though I wish it actually addressed what I said. I mean, what I I actually said was that regardless of whether haki was planned or unplanned, it was something that had no room in the story at the time. Introducing end-game advanced techniques at that stage of the manga would have caused power inflation, and at that point,
What rule states that Oda couldn't have introduced it at the beginning of the story? If he did, it'd only mean it was something to be strived towards.More than 1 way to skin a cat.
It's more absurd to believe that Mangakas just wake up one morning, write a story, and then have it serialized by the likes of VIZ and just do everything as you go on without a plan to begin with.
More so, if that were the case, there'd be many plot-holes, and there really aren't any. The story in the future explains a lot of things that happen in the past.
Your argument is not objective at all, it's simply if Crocodile didn't have Haki, then Oda didn't plan for Haki. Crocodile is not the centre of One Piece.
Except they wouldn't because by your own admission Ace knows how to use haki. Ace made it sound like there would be no victor if both he and Smoker clashed and because haki wasn't introduced at the time, we accepted it as truth but now we know better. Again, this was the point which you you seemed to have missed in my original post.
Nope, he simply said their abilities clashing against the other wouldn't progress the fight, and assuming context means anything to you, he wasn't interested in fighting Smoker since he was going after Blackbeard to begin with, he had priorities. We were being given information on Devil fruits specifically, Oda didn't even talk about Smoker's Seastone-tipped-Jitte as a method of fighting; he doesn't reveal everything, doesn't mean it didn't exist.
We're even shown how fixated he was on getting this done that Whitebeard objected, but he was clearly vehement about it. You're taking things out of context to produce a narrow viewed assessment of Ace's actions against Smoker.
You can't understand the activities of a person without a back-story, that's a fact.
You could see a woman slap a man on the street and make assumptions, but until you know the back-story, your opinion of that event at that moment in time is in-complete and irrelevant. There's a reason the law states "not guilty until proven", it's all about context (history), and you're in complete dismissal of it because Crocodile needs to be the strongest in the entire OP world.
It's pretty obvious that the majority of people that go their whole lives not knowing they have haki are civilians and fodders. Haki would be a pretty standard ability among top fighters.
But nah gaiz, Kuja scrubs with power levels of OVER MINUS 9000 know how to use haki,....while Crocodile who's a known silver medalist with experience fighting haki users in the New World, cannot. He probably just spammed them with sand burials or something I suppose.
Lucci didn't know Haki, and it took Luffy with Gear 2nd to defeat him - Crocodile on the other hand was defeated by Luffy without Gear 2nd.
Enel didn't even possess Armament Haki.
Even after Enel's fight, Lucci wasn't shown to possess Observation Haki? I'd assume you're going to call this a plot-hole.
Even after Enel and Lucci, Moriah didn't even possess Observation Haki? another plot-hole excuse on cue?
Even the Kuja warriors you call scrubs were taken down by Gear 2nd, Crocodile by what? BASE Luffy, not even Gear 2nd.
It Oda wanted Crocodile, or any of the characters in "Paradise" to be Haki users, he'd have made it so.
Luffy defeated the Kuja warriors simply with Gear 2nd (and no Armament or Observation), clearly, an ability used well can even overpower a Haki user, it should be very obvious.
What you're simply appealing too is the portrayal of character, people tend to do this ever so often. Cool characters always get the benefit of the doubt. A bit of swagger isn't what dictates who, and who doesn't have Haki, it's TALENT.
Even Coby has Observation Haki, something that Crocodile & Moriah failed to even demonstrate once. I wonder what it is that Coby has over Crocodile? Strenght? Swagger? character? intelligence? cunning? ...just talent.
And she said even with Haki, if you can't touch the ability user's body, it's pretty much useless.
Had Zoro not stepped in, Tashigi would have lost.
So, why wouldn't Crocodile be able to defeat his opponents when his Logia powers give him the ability to attack from range which is an advantage? Think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here rather than looking at things objectively. Abilities are powerful things even without possessing Haki.
@Hannibal Psyche I think it's absurd to assume that mangakas already have everything planned when they're writing their stories, that's not it works
Let's agree to disagree in this case, for me Oda did not plan Haki in the early stages of the story (Shanks scaring the sea king etc), it is possible he had a general idea about Haki during those stages of the story, but definitely not as elaborate as now (for example Hardening was an addition post-timeskip, I refuse to believe WB for example not being able to use it)
Crocodile is one of the top pirates and was deemed strong and fearsome enough to be invited to the Shichibukai, if the likes of Bellamy know Hardening, are you telling Crocodile had to learn during the timeskip just because he didn't show it during his fight against Luffy ? That's absolutely absurd and doesn't even make sense at all
@Hannibal Psyche I think it's absurd to assume that mangakas already have everything planned when they're writing their stories, that's not it works
Let's agree to disagree in this case, for me Oda did not plan Haki in the early stages of the story (Shanks scaring the sea king etc), it is possible he had a general idea about Haki during those stages of the story, but definitely not as elaborate as now (for example Hardening was an addition post-timeskip, I refuse to believe WB for example not being able to use it)
Crocodile is one of the top pirates and was deemed strong and fearsome enough to be invited to the Shichibukai, if the likes of Bellamy know Hardening, are you telling Crocodile had to learn during the timeskip just because he didn't show it during his fight against Luffy ? That's absolutely absurd and doesn't even make sense at all
Okay, a top Pirate that was defeated before Gear 2nd, or 3rd.
And because of a lack of elaborating = Didn't know about Haki?
Oda didn't elaborate about Sea -stone = Oda didn't know about it.
Oda didn't elaborate about Monkey D. Dragon = Oda didn't know about his character.
Oda didn't elaborate about DF weakness to sea water initially = Oda didn't know about it.
Oda didn't elaborate about so many things in the beginning of the story, you're essentially saying except an author reveals everything on Chapter 1 page 1, then there's nothing he planned for or knew about in advance.
However, sure, I can agree to disagree now that I understand.
Okay, a top Pirate that was defeated before Gear 2nd, or 3rd.
And because of a lack of elaborating = Didn't know about Haki?
Oda didn't elaborate about Sea -stone = Oda didn't know about it.
Oda didn't elaborate about Monkey D. Dragon = Oda didn't know about his character.
Oda didn't elaborate about DF weakness to sea water initially = Oda didn't know about it.
Oda didn't elaborate about so many things in the beginning of the story, you're essentially saying except an author reveals everything on Chapter 1 page 1, then there's nothing he planned for or knew about in advance.
However, sure, I can agree to disagree now that I understand.
If I go by your logic, then DD didn't know about Armament Haki before the timeskip because he didn't show it and as such, he learned it during the timeskip same as Luffy and other pirates out there
You know it is wrong and I don't need to elaborate about that... You cannot prove that Haki and its types was developed in the early stages of the story, because mangakas are not omnipotent, they do not have everything written and set in stone
The only thing Oda mentioned as being already set in stone is the ending of the story, as the story progresses Oda gets more idea which he incorporates one at a time
Why is it difficult to accept that Crocodile knows about Haki and how to use it, except during the Arabasta arc it wasn't shown because Oda did not develop well during that stage of the story ?
Anyway, my point being is that you make Oda sound as some sort of perfect writer with everything being already developed and thought about, I don't personally believe so
If I go by your logic, then DD didn't know about Armament Haki before the timeskip because he didn't show it and as such, he learned it during the timeskip same as Luffy and other pirates out there
You know it is wrong and I don't need to elaborate about that... You cannot prove that Haki and its types was developed in the early stages of the story, because mangakas are not omnipotent, they do not have everything written and set in stone
The only thing Oda mentioned as being already set in stone is the ending of the story, as the story progresses Oda gets more idea which he incorporates one at a time
Why is it difficult to accept that Crocodile knows about Haki and how to use it, except during the Arabasta arc it wasn't shown because Oda did not develop well during that stage of the story ?
Nobody is arguing about wether Haki or not existed in the OP timeline, I'm arguing about whether the author thought about it during that stage of the story or not. Haki always existed in the OP timeline, I totally agree with that statement
My argument is that Crocodile being one of strongest pirates, and an ex-Shichibukai, he absolutely knows how to use Haki for sure... If he wasn't a Shichibukai, I would think twice about making that kind of statement... But there's no way a pirate who made it in the NW and went to fight against WB to not know about it and how to use it (and this applies to Moria as well)
Okay so Crocodile cut Akainu in half, surely that makes him stronger than Akainu eh ? And he didn't get kicked by Luffy... He blocked his hook using a kick by the way
As for DD... He blasted him away using Sables, surely that makes Crocodile stronger right ?
Thanks to all of you who have expressed your unreserved opinion.
I have noticed that the discussion has somehow strayed away from the original topic.
We don't know how far ahead our author, Oda, has planned out his story. But in my opinion, he would have had some form of an idea on how his story should go. His editors would play a part on this planning. Manga, comics, anime, movies, books, and everything else are businesses. The editors comes in place representing the publisher and together with the authors, they discuss and plan for the story. Oda wouldn't have been all well prepared for everything on every single plot, and obviously not the details. In fact, authors (including book writers) wouldn't have compiled the entire story at the onset but would have an overall idea of the story and gradually the individual plot and then go on with the specifics and details as those in the various saga and arcs.
Smoker or Crocodile appeared in the early days of One Piece. They have been the spot light as formidable fighters and opponent for Luffy during their time. As the story progresses, the opponents increase and we get people who are stronger and more powerful. That's how the story of One Piece is like, as the main characters, the Straw Hat Pirates adventure to more dangerous places, they gain more experience and get themselves better equipped with their abilities. Protagonists and antagonists alike, do progress at the similar pace and flow. We can't have one group being overly powered while the other stay stagnant as those of the early stage of the story.
The past characters (and opponents) - win or lose - had their time to shine and they did. We can only look forward for opponents who can fair better with our Straw Hats as we advance with the story.
As the topic of the thread is focusing on devil fruits and its dependency, we will stop here and continue the topic as stated.
As people gain more power, they will tend to use it. Recall Sabo when he first gained the mera mera fruit, one of the things he did was to try out his new power and Blackbeard became his first guinea pig. (BB asked for it anyway.)
Our main character, Luffy, is pretty similar in the sense that he uses his devil fruit all the time. Sometimes I feel that he is as if born with it (though technically he is a rubber man after consuming the fruit).
If I can think of someone who is dependent on his devil fruit, I will think it's Buggy. He gives me the impression that he depends mostly on his bara bara fruit and perhaps some wit juice out of his brain most of the time.
Another thing to note, please stay cool in your discussion. Don't let the summer heat hit you.
Nobody is arguing about wether Haki or not existed in the OP timeline, I'm arguing about whether the author thought about it during that stage of the story or not. Haki always existed in the OP timeline, I totally agree with that statement
My argument is that Crocodile being one of strongest pirates, and an ex-Shichibukai, he absolutely knows how to use Haki for sure... If he wasn't a Shichibukai, I would think twice about making that kind of statement... But there's no way a pirate who made it in the NW and went to fight against WB to not know about it and how to use it (and this applies to Moria as well)
Okay so Crocodile cut Akainu in half, surely that makes him stronger than Akainu eh ? And he didn't get kicked by Luffy... He blocked his hook using a kick by the way
As for DD... He blasted him away using Sables, surely that makes Crocodile stronger right ?
Crocodile is a Logia, Sand is not affected by heat. Magma wouldn't hurt Sand.
As Oda himself stated...
Abilities do not necessarily equate into the strength of a character.
Just becaus an ability is powerful doesn't mean the character himself is powerful Abilities jut give advantage in most case, and some actually make one stronger.
The ability to fly, the ability to absorb water and leave people bone-dry, that's not something you can take and use to calculate strength.
What's stronger, a punch from Whitebeard, or the ability to poison people? You can't compare physical force - impact into an effect.
Take Enel, he's electricity, just because his ability is ineffective agasint Rubber doesn't automatically mean Enel is simply inferior to Luffy. There's a difference between effective power and power based on strength. You can't say that 1mg of "x" poison = 5000 newtons of force, or 100,000 volts = 2 Punches from Whitebeard, strength =/= effect.
Even Ace melted Aokiji's Ice completely, it doesn't mean Aokiji is weaker than Ace who then ended up getting defeated by Akainu in 1 punch -> WHO we know stalemated Aokiji implying they're equals after a 10 day battle. So, one can't say Ace is stronger than Aokiji, Aokiji is an Admiral, and at that point would have been far stronger than Ace physically.
Crocodile cannot be the strongest Pirate if he's in pain from punches from Luffy which weren't even derivatives of Gear 2nd. Shichibukai is not a level or rank, simply a position given to Pirates who have a reputation that's good enough to deter others. That's why Buggy is a Shichibukai, not because he's strong (he doesn't even possess Haki), he simply has a reputation. Marineford painted him out to be a monster due to the fact he made a lot of appearance in the broadcasts at Marineford, the WG are just taking advantage of his "notoriety".
DFs make people much stronger than they are, it was explicitly also pointed out in Dressrosa:
Rebecca said she needed the power of the Mera Mera no Mi (in addition to her own power) to take down Joker. If they didn't make people more dangerous/threatening, then I wonder why she (along with all the gladiators) wants the Mera Mera no Mi for that purpose.
Pretty sure even Hajrudin said the same thing saying he'll become King of all Giants via the Mera Mera no Mi, all those competing for the Mera Mera no Mi were all in it because they wanted to get stronger, nicely pointed out.
Ideo himself says the exact same thing about getting stronger as a result of obtaining the Mera Mera no Mi.
The power of most DFs don't require the strength of their user just like a man with a knife doesn't get stronger because he's wielding a knife, simply becomes more dangerous - therefore, they would make relatively weak people like Rebecca appear stronger.
All the gladiators all attributed their success to come from winning the Mera Mera no Mi, and it drives the point that some DFs do offer one a more or less, false sense of power.
People like Crocodile or Moriah who don't have Haki owe their success to powerful DFs, not everyone is born with the talent of Sabo, Ace, Luffy, Zoro and the Sanjis of this world who are naturally strong and don't neglect physical training.
If you do recall, Tashigi is a Haki user.
Monet is not a Haki user.
And she said even with Haki, if you can't touch the ability user's body, it's pretty much useless.Had Zoro not stepped in, Tashigi would have lost. Devil fruits can be ridiculously powerful in the right hands despite not possessing all the qualities of talented individuals.
