Match Doubles instead of knockout singles

[Ninomiya]

Kikumaru almost return laser beam and would have if Yagyuu laser beam was the one use at the beginning of the match. It's even mention in the manga that his eye gotten use to Niou laser speed which is why Yagyuu laser work. That wouldn't be the case if they play singles. And Niou would have return laser beam if it was use. He's facing curve laser, which is never before shown in the series. And techniques in PoT generally, with a very very very few exceptions, work the 1st time it is use. So it got that benefit along with being use on the no illusion Niou.

And well, 3 points off Shiraishi is something that Kikumaru will never archive since the #2 lost almost a match to the Bible without getting a single points. Kikumaru is crap tier in singles. If you think Kikumaru can beat Kenya, that explain everything to me about your thought on Yagyuu as well.

The whole point is that Kikumaru has Motion Vision.
Something that only Kikumaru, Saeki, Sengoku and Ryoma have.
So to assume that other characters will cope with the Laser and Curving Laser just based on Kikumaru's stats alone is totally wrong.
Ignoring the fact that it took Kikumaru over 3 games to just ADJUST to the real Laser WITH a Doubles player backing him up where Kikumaru was able to stand back and analyse which is a luxury he wouldn't have in Singles, means that Laserbeams is far from an easy move to track with your eyes.

If a man with Motion Vision can't really do it against a limited laser, then when Yagyuu adds a completely new Laserbeam which he can hit from the exact same stance and in addition to the fact that Yagyuu can aim his Laserbeam in practically any direction, meaning a Curving Laser in any direction too, means there is little relevance to Kikumaru being able to only touch the Laser shot back in Regionals.
Yagyuu's moveset is in a different region now.

---------- Post added at 11:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 PM ----------

Sorry I must have misunderstood why you were saying my argument was invalid because immediately after you put the numbers in your previous post, you said this makes your argument very invalid.

Yeah, I agreed prior with you and concede that Atobe/Niou synchro is really just down to Atobe.
After analysing their win, I realised you were right and that is a serious bs win.

I definitely felt the same way but a bullshit win is still a win. Just like how Yagyuu beat Niou. I don't understand how that worked. If Yagyuu could outplay Niou then why didn't he play any matches in the finals.

It makes sense that Yagyuu couldn't play in the finals.
Yagyuu and Kaidoh learned each other's moves, then made superior version of them.
Kaidoh learned Laser off of Yagyuu and made Gyro Laser which is a superior shot.
Yagyuu learned Snake off of Kaidoh or was it Boomerang Snake? Either way, he made Curving Laser which is a superior shot.

The twist is that Kaidoh was able to master his superior version in such a short time that he could use it in time for Nationals tournament.
I'm pretty certain Yagyuu didn't master Curving Laser in time considering Niou didn't even know Curving Laser existed and they're best friends.
But yeah, Yagyuu can completely take out somebody of Niou's base stats as we've seen.

The fact that Krauser was chosen for the team shuffle instead of Kite or Akutsu is also kind of ridiculous. There are some times where teams are made out to be close or way better than another for story line purposes. These are still points that can't be ignored.

I didn't mind that. Konomi did it in a way that showed that originally Oni wasn't trying to necessarily defeat Court 3.
He just wanted to give the MSers an opportunity to enjoy some massive growth.
And he felt the best players at the time who could gain the most growth were the ones he chose.
And Oni got it spot on for almost all of them except two of them.
(Krauser and Shiraishi) since they both sorta wasted their time from what I saw considering Shiraishi just took off a weight, and Krauser's stats haven't changed since Nakagauchi showed him his weakness.

---------- Post added at 11:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 PM ----------

Not really...? Like what, Tech isn't just how much spin you put on the ball. And we already come to agreement that stats=/= move use by characters. If there's not big move to break, how could Kenya be dumbfound by it?

Kenya's Mental stat isn't high and his Tech is average.
His Mental and Tech is identical to Hirakoba's. The evidence really points towards 4thCounter having the same effect it had on Hirakoba as it did to Kenya I think.
We've also all come to the agreement that special moves can have a different impact against particular stats.
The same way Rai can be hit by somebody with an extremely high tech stat, or Hadoukyuu by somebody with an extremely high Tech or Power stat.

Kenya only reaches the 18 total due to his Speed. Neither his Tech or Power or Mental are notably high and in SPoT ALL 3 have been shown to be more useful than Speed thus far.

 

[-Ken-]

Yes, but it have that huge of impact on Hirakoba because it say he put everything into that shot. That, and he's using a special shot. Kenya didn't that kind of big move at all.

 

[Ninomiya]

Yes, but it have that huge of impact on Hirakoba because it say he put everything into that shot. That, and he's using a special shot. Kenya didn't that kind of big move at all.

Yes and no. He felt despair because he had nothing left, but iirc, doesn't he comment that he feels as if the ball is near but he can't reach it?
He says something that shows that not only is he affected mentally, but he really just can't get his head around the move.
Since in reality at that stage he should have still felt victory was his as he just needed to ace Kawamura before he realized his Habu had actually weakened so bad that even Kawamura could hit it back

 

[-Ken-]

But the circumstance is very clear there. Even Rin state it. He put everything he have into that Habu, so that's why when his opponent break that Habu, his heart falter. Kenya doesn't have such shot. And because he doesn't have enough strength left to continue hitting Habu at that level anymore, so Kawamura can hit it back. Rin at that point can no longer ace Kawamura. So him feeling that way is perfectly normal.

 

[Ninomiya]

But the circumstance is very clear there. Even Rin state it. He put everything he have into that Habu, so that's why when his opponent break that Habu, his heart falter. Kenya doesn't have such shot. And because he doesn't have enough strength left to continue hitting Habu at that level anymore, so Kawamura can hit it back. Rin at that point can no longer ace Kawamura. So him feeling that way is perfectly normal.

Again,

Spoiler

Hirakoba actually describes how the Tech defeats him. With Hirakoba's Tech and Mental matching Kenya's own Tech and Mental I'm pretty sure they'll suffer against 4thCounter in the same way. Kenya isn't Shiraishi or Niou or anything.

Hirakoba comments on how he put everything into that Giant Habu sure, but that becomes completely irrelevant when he describes in detail how the 4thCounter mentally defeats him due to the movement of the shot.

 

[-Ken-]

Yes, and he feel that way because it destroy his Giant Habu. Does Kenya have that kinda move?

Movement of a shot? No, it's clear that this is mental base. He feel that way because his mental is crush. And if movement of the shot affect it, then speed is clearly a matter you shouldn't overlook.

 

[floman]

Hey I haven't written on this forum in a while, but I think I'm just gonna pick the pairs that move on.

Kintarou/Chitose versus Tezuka/Kaido

Atobe/ Hiyoshi versus Niou/Yagyuu

 

[Philia]

1.Kintarou/Chitose will beat Tezuka/Kaidoh.
Chitose is clearly ahead of Kaidoh. And Kintarou & Tezuka are both TnK user. However, Tezuka's arm is likely to let him down.

2.Niou/Yagyuu should edge Atobe/Hiyoshi.
Niou can synchro. So, Niou with anyone would make a deadly pair. Plus Yagyuu should be better than Hiyoshi in doubles.

 

[Hardy]

Kaidoh has his combo and Chitose can't use Saiki, how is the latter clearly ahead?

And, as far as we know, Kin didn't learn completely how to use TnK yet (I mean, he only used it when his ass was getting kicked -just like Ryoma in the Nationals, and Echizen hasn't used it again since then-) whereas Tezuka used TnK when he was already winning and even used it again minutes later against Fuji.

Also, yes, Atobe loses in the 2nd match.

 

[-Ken-]

I'll say Kintarou can use his TnK. He activated it until the end of the match and there's no pages that suggest he can't use it outside of assumption, unlike, say, Beast Syncho or double black aura, where there are panels showing they can't use it at will.

Kintarou/Chitose wins,

Atobe is the strongest players of those by far, but I don't think he's that much ahead of Niou, and Yagyuu are probably much better than Hiyoshi. Niou/Yagyuu win.

---------- Post added at 08:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:07 AM ----------

However, I'll add that I think Minami/Echizen can beat any pair because Aura ball alone. As long as Minami serve and get out of the way, I don't see any players winning beating that besides Tezuka and Kintarou (And no, Sanada got whoop 6-0 by Shuuji. He can't handle Aura ball. And I doubt Shuuji can handle aura ball too, so I don't see Yukimura doing hot either)

 

[Ninomiya]

I'll say Kintarou can use his TnK. He activated it until the end of the match and there's no pages that suggest he can't use it outside of assumption, unlike, say, Beast Syncho or double black aura, where there are panels showing they can't use it at will.

This proves nothing though?
Kintaro only used TnK when he was getting his ass completely handed to him like a dog just like Ryoma. Of course he kept it to the end of the match just like Ryoma did.
However we currently do not know if Ryoma can use TnK at will. The same way we don't know if Kintaro can bring out TnK at will.
While I think its likely Kintaro can use it, its not confirmed at all.

---

Currently, Tezuka/Kaidoh, Chitose/Tooyama and Minami/Echizen are the strongest pairs by default.

Then its Yukimura/Sanada (<--Its funny how this was originally the undisputed strongest pair at the start but now they're most certainly not lol)

And then its Niou/Yagyuu, Shiraishi/Kenya, Akutsu/Kawamura and Golden Pair

And then Atobe/Hiyoshi, Yanagi/Kirihara, Marui/Jackal, Kite/Kai

And then Shishido/Ootori, Ishida/Konjiki, Chinen/Tanishi

and the other pairs are probably irrelevant.
I strongly believe Fuji/Fuji is ruined by Yuuta. Hirakoba/Higashikata is doomed by Higashikata and so on.

 

[Hardy]

I guess you have Aktusu/Taka up there because Akutsu can hit x bao (I don't remember how many... 5?) but how the crap is Shiraishi/Kenya better than Atobe/Wakashi, Yanagi/Kirihara and Champion Pair.

I'll say Kintarou can use his TnK. He activated it until the end of the match and there's no pages that suggest he can't use it outside of assumption, unlike, say, Beast Syncho or double black aura, where there are panels showing they can't use it at will.

I've been thinking about this. There's absolutely nothing to support that Ryoma can use TnK at will (and with that, the same goes to Kin).

We know for a fact that Oni and Tokugawa didn't show their real selves until these last matches. That means no Azura, no Glowing shots and no Kijin. TnK Kin is around the same level as Kijin! Oni. Then how the crap would Tokugawa defeat TnK Echizen without Azura?

But what did we see? We saw Echizen getting destroyed by Tokugawa. So, TnK was never activated (even if Echizen was kinda having fun tbh).

 

[-Ken-]

Actually, the whole match is skip. How do you know he doesn't activate TnK? Let's wait till Echizen match with Byoudonin is over until we can see if Ryoma can activate TnK or not.

There's nothing that support that Kintarou can't use TnK at will. Really, nothing. Since I have proof that Kintarou CAN use TnK, don't you think your side need to provide evidence that he can't, or that anything is limiting him from using it?

I can show the evidence for double Black Aura and Beast Syncho that they can't be use at will. I expect to see something similar here.

 

[Hardy]

You're completely ignoring everything I just said but ok.

 

[Ninomiya]

Actually, the whole match is skip. How do you know he doesn't activate TnK? Let's wait till Echizen match with Byoudonin is over until we can see if Ryoma can activate TnK or not.

What was skipped?
Do you REALLY think Tokugawa w/out using 10 Ball strike or Black Vortex was able to defeat TnK!Ryoma?

I think its crystal clear that Ryoma didn't use it when Tokugawa kicked his ass.

I think it evenly hangs in the balance whether or not Ryoma can use TnK at will or not since there is absolutely nothing to suggest that he can use it at will yet.

There's nothing that support that Kintarou can't use TnK at will. Really, nothing. Since I have proof that Kintarou CAN use TnK, don't you think your side need to provide evidence that he can't, or that anything is limiting him from using it?

You can prove that Kintaro accessed TnK when he was getting his ass kicked around by Oni.
You have absolutely nothing to prove that Kintaro entered TnK on purpose Ken. Really, nothing.
There was no indication in the match that Kintaro entered TnK intentionally at all.
Its not confirmed Kintaro or Ryoma can enter TnK at will until we actually see them in mid-match decide to bring out their TnK.

I can show the evidence for double Black Aura and Beast Syncho that they can't be use at will. I expect to see something similar here.

The Kokushou no Aura thing is fine but it isn't relevant since we haven't seen various characters use KnA whereas we have seen different characters use TnK.
Synchro has been described to be a State and not as an Aura so it doesn't count.

---------- Post added at 03:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:28 PM ----------

I guess you have Aktusu/Taka up there because Akutsu can hit x bao (I don't remember how many... 5?) but how the crap is Shiraishi/Kenya better than Atobe/Wakashi, Yanagi/Kirihara and Champion Pair.

Akutsu hit back like 10ao against Ryoga. Kawamura's ability to arrive with a Hadoukyuu in the midst of a Doubles rally has been truly noteworthy in the series, on top of that he can hit 108degrees of Hadoukyuu so he is basically Gin with less Technique.
That's an amazing pair.
In theory, GP would take the lead but after a few big Hadoukyuu's, Oishi's wrists are finished haha.


Shiraishi/Kenya is overall better than Atobe/Hiyoshi imho because Hiyoshi is just a big weakness in the pair.
If its Atobe/Hiyoshi, there is no bullshit scenario like when Niou/Atobe used Synchro so Atobe could Synchro!Solo Mouri/Ochi.
Shiraishi/Kenya will just bully Hiyoshi into losing the match.

I might be underestimating Hiyoshi heavilyi here, but he has yet to do anything truly noteworthy in the series since we find out Atobe was trolling during the entire 47-45 match.
Then again, Kenya's attack seems particularly weak imho.
So maybe Atobe/Hiyoshi deserves to go on Shiraishi/Kenya's level.

Yanagi/Kirihara are lower than Shiraishi/Kenya because Yanagi is never going to let Kirihara enter DM again. BM!Kirihara simply isn't good enough to survive the match let's be honest.
As for Marui/Jackal VS Shiraishi/Kenya, I guess I underestimated Marui/Jackal there so I guess it'd be a really good match.

 

[-Ken-]

There is also nothing that prove Kintarou and Ryoma can't do it since they unlock it as well. What's your point? If there's no proof that they can't do it, they can't? Even when they are shown to unlock it already? I shown other move that players have shown to use and haven't master it. There is no such case here.

Anyways, I'm done. Let's see Ryoma match with Byoudonin and see if Ryoma lost without using PoP.

The only time Byoudonin use Asura is also when the match are dangerously close. Maybe that's also Byoudonin condition for activating his move? After all, so far, the two match we saw him use it, he use it near the end of what would decide the (first) set. So, like PoP, Byoudonin only activate it at that time and there is also no proof what so ever that he can activate it whenever. In this case, there's even two match that shows it. And like I don't have evidence with PoP, you also lacks any evidence here as well. Absolutely nothing.

If you can accept that, I'll also accept Kintarou activating PoP only when he is losing.

Also, dream yips, the only time we saw Yukimura use it is also not clear. Maybe Yukimura hasn't master it yet?

Niou also won't Syncho with Yagyuu outside of pinch, because it's not confirm.

Oni PoP should be the same way as Kintarou. There's no proof he can activate it on will either.

The list can go on and on. If we assume that, let's assume and have clear proof for all characters that they can truly use the move.

 

[Ninomiya]

Ken, if there is absolutely no case here, then explain to us why the hell Ryoma didn't use TnK against Tokugawa?
Are you telling us he got his ass-kicked on purpose/for fun? Since that's what it would mean if Ryoma unusually held back his TnK so that he could welcome an ass-whooping from Tokugawa.
That doesn't sound like Ryoma at all let's be honest.

It's a bit much to say that there is "zero" case just because you don't like the idea of it not being concrete that Ryoma can access TnK whenever he wants.

 

[Hardy]

Akutsu hit back like 10ao against Ryoga. Kawamura's ability to arrive with a Hadoukyuu in the midst of a Doubles rally has been truly noteworthy in the series, on top of that he can hit 108degrees of Hadoukyuu so he is basically Gin with less Technique.
That's an amazing pair.
In theory, GP would take the lead but after a few big Hadoukyuu's, Oishi's wrists are finished haha.


Shiraishi/Kenya is overall better than Atobe/Hiyoshi imho because Hiyoshi is just a big weakness in the pair.
If its Atobe/Hiyoshi, there is no bullshit scenario like when Niou/Atobe used Synchro so Atobe could Synchro!Solo Mouri/Ochi.
Shiraishi/Kenya will just bully Hiyoshi into losing the match.

I might be underestimating Hiyoshi heavilyi here, but he has yet to do anything truly noteworthy in the series since we find out Atobe was trolling during the entire 47-45 match.
Then again, Kenya's attack seems particularly weak imho.
So maybe Atobe/Hiyoshi deserves to go on Shiraishi/Kenya's level.

Yanagi/Kirihara are lower than Shiraishi/Kenya because Yanagi is never going to let Kirihara enter DM again. BM!Kirihara simply isn't good enough to survive the match let's be honest.

Oh, right, I got Akutsu confused with Sanada, lol.

Yeah, Akutsu can hit 10 bao but sucks at hitting oranges. 10 bao should be enough to beat GP tbh, and Taka and one of his bs moves can win a match out of nowhere.

I don't like Wakashi, like at all, I think I called him ¨PoT's Yamcha¨ once (the whole Gekokujo idea is so dumb considering he has lost every single match he had in PoT). But on the other hand I don't like Kenya a lot either. Atobe >> Shiraishi definetly, and there shouldn't be a huge difference between Kenya and Hiyoshi (even more considering he has a new move now and has the best stats amongst the 2nd years -yes better than Kaidoh and Momo-).

Well, BM! Kirihara was shitting on Ryoma so hard that the latter went into Muga (the same Ryoma that defeated Akutsu). I'm not even gonna comment on how bs is that Kirihara can't go into Angel Mode without Shiraishi (not even with Yanagi), as that's how things are, lol. I can definetly see Kirihara beating Kenya (although, he's one of my favourite characters, I can't be objective). Also, Shiraishi is left handed, so Kirihara should somehow do better against him.

Anyways, I'm done. Let's see Ryoma match with Byoudonin and see if Ryoma lost without using PoP.

But that wouldn't prove anything. If Ryoma is cornered and activates TnK because of that, that won't be related with his match against Tokugawa.

---------- Post added at 07:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:13 PM ----------

The only time Byoudonin use Asura is also when the match are dangerously close. Maybe that's also Byoudonin condition for activating his move? After all, so far, the two match we saw him use it, he use it near the end of what would decide the (first) set. So, like PoP, Byoudonin only activate it at that time and there is also no proof what so ever that he can activate it whenever. In this case, there's even two match that shows it. And like I don't have evidence with PoP, you also lacks any evidence here as well. Absolutely nothing.

If you can accept that, I'll also accept Kintarou activating PoP only when he is losing.

Also, dream yips, the only time we saw Yukimura use it is also not clear. Maybe Yukimura hasn't master it yet?

Niou also won't Syncho with Yagyuu outside of pinch, because it's not confirm.

Oni PoP should be the same way as Kintarou. There's no proof he can activate it on will either.

The list can go on and on. If we assume that, let's assume and have clear proof for all characters that they can truly use the move.

Byoudouin wasn't cornered, he was saving that move (also... it wasn't Asura, right?). There's a huge difference.

Yukimura's new yips weren't clear and could had been better written, but he definetly did them on porpuse.

Arguable, but I'm on the side that thinks that Niou can't Synchro with anyone he wants. It just worked with Atobe because the latter is an ego.

Oni can't activate it at will (he only did it because he was having fun, and apparently no one saw anything like that in him before), who said that?

 

[-Ken-]

How do you know Byoudonin was saving that move? Did he stated it? Oni doesn't even knows Byoudonin have Asura before that point, it seem.

There's nothing clear about Yukimura. He hasn't talk about the move at all, nor use it again yet. How do you know? Are you Yukimura?

I think it's fine to assume they are use those move at will. But I expect the same treatment of Kintarou as well. I think all of them should be treated the same way. That's my opinion.

If there's evidence they can't use it, sure. Otherwise, I assume that they can. That's my view on these things. If you have other views, shows evidence for all characters ever exist with that and we can go from there as well.

 

[Hardy]

Byoudouin never used Asura IIRC, right? You mean Pirates of the World? (A move that was hinted a lot of chapters before- in the fanbook?-, so obviously it wasn't an accident?)

Also yes, I'm Yukimura, thanks for noticing.

---------- Post added at 10:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 PM ----------

If you have other views, shows evidence for all characters ever exist with that and we can go from there as well.

I'm sorry... wat?