Discussion Elizabeth

[Undina]

Well the thing is Gowther’s magic isn’t a damaging type of magic. It’s a magic that can only be countered by a spirit stat. Durabilty and other factors don’t matter with it.

Some spells have nothing to do with power level, but have different qualifications for usage. Not all of them depend on power alone. Deldry’s love drive is another example of a magic that works regardless of power level.

The Elizabeth ark thing doesn’t make any sense in a logical usage. It’s weird to assume that she has more force behind her attacks than 114K Escanor. Like people have said virtually all shonen mangas have a scene where the main character gets bodied and there’s also the fact the ark is particularly deadly against demons.

I'm not saying that Elizabeth has more force behind her attacks than 114k Escanor, I'm saying that it has superior magic quality and the fact that she must be currently at a PL ranging from Melascula's to the base known PL of the demon princes must've combined combined with it to help her bridge the gap between her regular physical force and what Dayscanor naturally had, who was this hulking physical powerhouse from the beginning of his fight with Meliodas till The One and after, and manage to put Meliodas down, even if he admittedly didn't pass out.
That puts her far above being "useless", "weak" and "totally not a fighter or a measly lame healer" since a slap is still a form of physical violence and its results still a combat feat, especially in the case it also involves magic(speaking of which, involvement of magic doesn't allow for too much logic).
And I have already said it before, Ark is dangerous, not deadly, to demons; were it deadly, any and all demons would instantly die from it touching them,it wouldn't damage them accordingly to the MP fueling it and its rapport with the target's individual endurance and defense.
And it still leaves room for her developing more if she gets rid of the curse and survive as I expect the plot to head to.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

I'm not saying that Elizabeth has more force behind her attacks than 114k Escanor, I'm saying that it has superior magic quality and the fact that she must be currently at a PL ranging from Melascula's to the base known PL of the demon princes must've combined combined with it to help her bridge the gap between her regular physical force and what Dayscanor naturally had, who was this hulking physical powerhouse from the beginning of his fight with Meliodas till The One and after, and manage to put Meliodas down, even if he admittedly didn't pass out.
That puts her far above being "useless", "weak" and "totally not a fighter or a measly lame healer" since a slap is still a form of physical violence and its results still a combat feat, especially in the case it also involves magic(speaking of which, involvement of magic doesn't allow for too much logic).
And I have already said it before, Ark is dangerous, not deadly, to demons; were it deadly, any and all demons would instantly die from it touching them,it wouldn't damage them accordingly to the MP fueling it and its rapport with the target's individual endurance and defense.
And it still leaves room for her developing more if she gets rid of the curse and survive as I expect the plot to head to.

I see the ark as contributing to most of the force behind the slap. Ark dissolves darkness so Mel would arguably feel more pain and have less focus like Derieri had. Diane basically said it’s deadly to a demon like him. Sure it can be overcome with enough power, but the effects still aren’t negated. Same way that water puts out fire unless there are larger amounts of fire. But still, water doesn’t lose its properties of being a retardant. Mel, while stronger, is still at a point where he is suspectible to Goddess magic as compared to other magic. Ark would hurt him more than say another attack of the same caliber that didn’t happen to be ark

 

[Undina]

I see the ark as contributing to most of the force behind the slap. Ark dissolved darkness so Mel would arguably feel more pain and have less focus like Derieri had. Diane basically said it’s deadly to a demon like him. Sure it can be overcome with enough power, but the effects still aren’t negated. Same way that water puts out fire unless there are larger amounts of fire. But still, water doesn’t lose its properties of being a retardant. Mel, while stronger, is still at a point where he is suspectible to Goddess magic.

Again with the limited comparison between fire and water, there are types of fire(depending on fuel quality) water doesn't put out at all, that's why there are different types of fire extinguishing materials or means and the analogy goes beside the point.
Although Monspeet mentioned that Ark works specifically against demons, he explained in the same discourse that Nerobasta failed against Derrieri exactly because she was weaker and not an AA, so it's painfully obvious the MP and personal ability quality behind it matters as well, so this point is a closed case. According to various translators, characters say various things, not all make the best wording choice as we're constantly reminded by the mistakes from MS, but that aside, I still believe a demon's observation in this situation has more credibility and basis than a Giant who got to observe the situation from the outside and for far shorter time than the goddesses and demons themselves.
Seriously, stop feeling so offended whenever anything constructive for Elizabeth happens or her fans get happy about it, the fact that you disagree with it won't write it away, only further development(and that only if it's for the worse) will. Right now Gowther said what he said, that the "strongest" AA praised her and there was no specification said praise was limited to her healing or brainwashing or anything too specific or restrictive, but the phrasing in the summary emphasises the "strongest" detail as part of the context and for now I'm running with it. As well as I'm running with the fact that Merlin's implying she's only immune to Elizabeth's powers thanks to the blessing from the DK. But everyone in the story seems to be lately discussing Elizabeth in the context of power and superior abilities, so excuse me if I'm not gonna dismiss it.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Again with the limited comparison between fire and water, there are types of fire(depending on fuel quality) water doesn't put out at all, that's why there are different types of fire extinguishing materials or means and the analogy goes beside the point.
Although Monspeet mentioned that Ark works specifically against demons, he explained in the same discourse that Nerobasta failed against Derrieri exactly because she was weaker and not an AA, so it's painfully obvious the MP and personal ability quality behind it matters as well, so this point is a closed case. According to various translators, characters say various things, not all make the best wording choice as we're constantly reminded by the mistakes from MS, but that aside, I still believe a demon's observation in this situation has more credibility and basis than a Giant who got to observe the situation from the outside and for far shorter time than the goddesses and demons themselves.
Seriously, stop feeling so offended whenever anything constructive for Elizabeth happens or her fans get happy about it, the fact that you disagree with it won't write it away, only further development(and that only if it's for the worse) will. Right now Gowther said what he said, that the "strongest" AA praised her and there was no specification said praise was limited to her healing or brainwashing or anything too specific or limiting, but the phrasing in the summary emphasises the "strongest" detail as part of the context and for now I'm running with it. As well as I'm running with the fact that Merlin's implying she's only immune to Elizabeth's powers thanks to the blessing from the DK. But everyone in the story seems to be lately discussing Elizabeth in the context of power and superior abilities, so excuse me if I'm not gonna dismiss it.

I’m not talking about special fire though, I’m talking about basic fire in the same way that I’m talking about basic light and darkness. Don’t try to twist this because you don’t wanna talk about it. The fact that it can be overcome doesn’t change the fact that it’s still effective against darkness. The only thing that your point shows is that it can be overcome with more effort than should be required because of the qualities of light which I’ve already stated is nothing new. I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand. This isn’t something unusual, this concept is in video games, and in real life. It’s elementary at best if it can be grasped in a kid’s game at that. Just because you don’t understand it doesn’t mean you get to say that it doesn’t apply. Majority of the forum agreed that light has advantages against darkness last time we brought this up. Your view is actually of the minority on this.
Here’s another analogy.

A spear user has several advantages over a sword user due to the reach of the weapon alone and nothing else. A sword user can overcome this if he has more skill, but it takes him a lot more effort than it normally would have if he were fighting say someone else without a spear. The spear doesn’t guarantee a win, but it gives a much better advantage. This is the same thing with light. It doesnt guarentee a win, but still provides advantages that take more effort to overcome.

As for Elizabeth’s praise you’re jumping the gun. We don’t know how he praised her. Overall power hasn’t even been mentioned yet because the chapter hasn’t come out. When you jump the gun and put forth false information, the whole form has to deal with it because others then gain this misconception. And I’m not salty. In all frankness you’re the one that tends to get worked up over Elizabeth. Just look at your past arguments with Sobreno.

It’s always the Goddess fans that start this. Even in the 260 spoilers you guys were over the moon for Elizabeth’s feats and generally are the first to try and hype her up. Aside from maybe Golgo, where are the Mel fans starting debates about why he’s gonna destroy Escanor or why he’s gonna become Jesus incarnate?

 

[OtakuFreak]

@sobreno

Oh yeah, Sakura has actually hurt Naruto before. I guess this must mean she’s the hokage tier.

Nah but in all seriousness the exceptions made for Elizabeth are just plain dumb now. Literally every major manga has scenes where the protagonists get bodied just for comedic effect. Diane used to do it all the time in part 1, yet no one ever made her seem op

Not to mention everyone who claimed that Elizabeth is OP because of her heritage just got proven wrong a few days ago. Thank you Estarassoa and for you example of waiting and seeing instead of assuming

The world of Naruto and Taizai are extremely different - don't pull comparisons, it won't work.

Exceptions are not made for Elizabeth, we are being realistic and to a sense we argue appropriately for her.

Now what is a true exception is an individual previously telling me Elizabeth has NO offensive skills/feats when we've seen her on more than one occasion slap or melt people - but hey, you won't comment on this exception because it sits on your side of the fence, right?

Elizabeth slapping Meliodas wasn't a comedic moment nor was it a testament of her being even close to his level of power.

We know she's for sure above the level of an average Goddess,but if or how much power she inherited from her Mom has to be even proven and shown.

This is literally all I'm trying to say.

I'm not saying Elizabeth is suddenly Assault Meliodas tier and can solo all other demons.
In fact, I'd only argue for Elizabeth being able to deal with top tier demons (except Mel) as a Goddess, her prime form.
I know that human nerfed Elizabeth would lose against top tier demons because she is just too physically frail and weak for a human.
But let's not play pretend here, if Elizabeth was to land an ark blast on any demons, it's going to do a lot more damage than a simple bruise - that's all I had to originally say in my first few comments in this chapter before some individuals assumed some things.

@Undina ive already said I’m willing to look into Elizabeth once she gets some feats. My problem and like the problem that several others have, is that her feats are either one sided (relating to magic only, yet people still make her god status off of one topic) or have several plot holes and or complications.

Even the last bit of “hype evidence” was just destroyed. Everyone argued that Estarossa was a demon prodigy because of his father, yet recently it was revealed that he was a loser.

This is the problem. She already has feats which displays her strongest feat of magic power yet you either refute these or just don't accept them.

She slapped Meliodas, to which he was shocked that she was able to even do that and made him sit down. The strongest demon in Britannia at the moment who is pretty much untouchable physically was moved forcefully by a nerfed Goddess. This is a feat, but instead of accepting it as one I get the silly argument of ''lol it's a lovers dispute doesn't count xd'' or '' lol that was all ark'. You're making wild arguments to deny Elizabeth the credit she deserves with this moment.

I see the ark as contributing to most of the force behind the slap. Ark dissolves darkness so Mel would arguably feel more pain and have less focus like Derieri had. Diane basically said it’s deadly to a demon like him. Sure it can be overcome with enough power, but the effects still aren’t negated. Same way that water puts out fire unless there are larger amounts of fire. But still, water doesn’t lose its properties of being a retardant. Mel, while stronger, is still at a point where he is suspectible to Goddess magic as compared to other magic. Ark would hurt him more than say another attack of the same caliber that didn’t happen to be ark

This makes no sense to me.

''it was all ark'' is basically this comment which has no validity because it's ELIZABETH'S ARK - and it's pretty evident u need power or skill behind the ark to even do well with it.

You saying ''the ark was all of it'' is like me saying ''well Estarossa killing Monspiet wasn't really him, I see the Demon King as contributing the most behind this feat because he gave Esta all his power''

It makes no sense to claim ''the ark does it all'' - we know it's effective against demons but it's pretty evident from the: Nerobasta failing to hurt Derriere or Ludoshel not leaving a scratch on Indura that personal magical power/skill is required for ark to work, which Elizabeth seems to have here.

. Majority of the forum agreed that light has advantages against darkness last time we brought this up. Your view is actually of the minority on this

As for Elizabeth’s praise you’re jumping the gun. We don’t know how he praised her. Overall power hasn’t even been mentioned yet because the chapter hasn’t come out. When you jump the gun and put forth false information, the whole form has to deal with it because others then gain this misconception. And I’m not salty. In all frankness you’re the one that tends to get worked up over Elizabeth. Just look at your past arguments with Sobreno.

It’s always the Goddess fans that start this. Even in the 260 spoilers you guys were over the moon for Elizabeth’s feats and generally are the first to try and hype her up.

This isn't relevant until we get a conclusive statement on the ''Light > Darkness''

All Monspiet said was that the power of light is a counter to the darkness, not a superior magic - so assuming that light > dark when we have no conclusive evidence for this is making exceptions for your argument.

Elizabeth is finally getting the spotlight and attention she deserves after 200 chapters. She's getting praised over and over again, and it's not for ''oh wow Elizabeth your hair and make up look so pretty today omg'' but for her skill/power.

Merlin praised her strength/skill twice.
Sariel praised her skill to which Ludoshel didn't even refute which is surprising since he always tries to attack her.
Apparently Mael the ''strongest'' archangel praised her - but we don't know the context so I won't run with it just yet.

She's getting hyped up for something and it's not just for her to sit in the back line and heal some more.

 

[PeanutButterJelly]

Meliodas himself has zero power from the DK, Estarossa ( literally zero darkness despite being the son of the DK himself ) too. Meliodas's power as a child proves it ( it was 300 ).
Zeldoris has some borrowed power ( not born with it ), conclusion, the three brothers have nothing specific at birth from the DK. And you are assuming that Elizabeth do? Okay.

Are you really such a Elizabeth hater or can't you simply read?
I stated that IF Elizabeth inherited any power from her Mom which was a remark to replies that state does.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

The world of Naruto and Taizai are extremely different - don't pull comparisons, it won't work.

Exceptions are not made for Elizabeth, we are being realistic and to a sense we argue appropriately for her.

Now what is a true exception is an individual previously telling me Elizabeth has NO offensive skills/feats when we've seen her on more than one occasion slap or melt people - but hey, you won't comment on this exception because it sits on your side of the fence, right?



This is literally all I'm trying to say.

I'm not saying Elizabeth is suddenly Assault Meliodas tier and can solo all other demons.
In fact, I'd only argue for Elizabeth being able to deal with top tier demons (except Mel) as a Goddess, her prime form.
I know that human nerfed Elizabeth would lose against top tier demons because she is just too physically frail and weak for a human.
But let's not play pretend here, if Elizabeth was to land an ark blast on any demons, it's going to do a lot more damage than a simple bruise - that's all I had to originally say in my first few comments in this chapter before some individuals assumed some things.



This is the problem. She already has feats which displays her strongest feat of magic power yet you either refute these or just don't accept them.

She slapped Meliodas, to which he was shocked that she was able to even do that and made him sit down. The strongest demon in Britannia at the moment who is pretty much untouchable physically was moved forcefully by a nerfed Goddess. This is a feat, but instead of accepting it as one I get the silly argument of ''lol it's a lovers dispute doesn't count xd'' or '' lol that was all ark'. You're making wild arguments to deny Elizabeth the credit she deserves with this moment.







This makes no sense to me.

''it was all ark'' is basically this comment which has no validity because it's ELIZABETH'S ARK - and it's pretty evident u need power or skill behind the ark to even do well with it.

You saying ''the ark was all of it'' is like me saying ''well Estarossa killing Monspiet wasn't really him, I see the Demon King as contributing the most behind this feat because he gave Esta all his power''

It makes no sense to claim ''the ark does it all'' - we know it's effective against demons but it's pretty evident from the: Nerobasta failing to hurt Derriere or Ludoshel not leaving a scratch on Indura that personal magical power/skill is required for ark to work, which Elizabeth seems to have here.



This isn't relevant until we get a conclusive statement on the ''Light > Darkness''

All Monspiet said was that the power of light is a counter to the darkness, not a superior magic - so assuming that light > dark when we have no conclusive evidence for this is making exceptions for your argument.

Elizabeth is finally getting the spotlight and attention she deserves after 200 chapters. She's getting praised over and over again, and it's not for ''oh wow Elizabeth your hair and make up look so pretty today omg'' but for her skill/power.

Merlin praised her strength/skill twice.
Sariel praised her skill to which Ludoshel didn't even refute which is surprising since he always tries to attack her.
Apparently Mael the ''strongest'' archangel praised her - but we don't know the context so I won't run with it just yet.

She's getting hyped up for something and it's not just for her to sit in the back line and heal some more.

What do you mean exceptions aren't made? Literally Escanor praised Merlin, yet no one hyped up Merlin to being that powerful. Diane used to be able to leave giant bruises on Mel, yet no one attributed this to her power.

A slap isn't a combat feat. Any animal knows how to throw a punch. When we say combat feats, we mean her fighting skills against another skilled fighter. But we haven't seen any yet because she's either ko'ed or being saved by someone else

Monspeet and Diane have already said that light is deadly to demons. I literally can't think of any other way the evidence is more evident than that.

You don't need as much power behind the ark for it to do more damage than it should. Nerobasta was able to cause Derieri to have to exert herself inspire of the fact that she's much weaker. It doesn't require that much strength. Plus Elizabeth is a human girl with normal human strength. Again, ark can be overcome, but it takes much more effort than would be required by any other attack.

The Demon King comparison doesn't even make sense. I don't care who gave estarossa his powers, I care about the properties of his power. In his case, none of his powers have an advantage against Monspeet's body. Unlike Elizabeth, darkness doesn't decompose darkness. Light has been stated by Monspeet to decompose darkness and has been stated by Diane to be deadly to "a demon like meliodas" So unless Diane is racist towards demons and thinks they're weaker, light is more effective.

Merlin's praise is dumb because she gave the same praise to Arthur, who is in a state of death and life and the 4AA never praised her power like you're trying to make it seem. They said that others would need her aid. Not her power, her aid because she's useful in a sense that she can heal. Aid isn't power in this context.

Also Monspeet didn't just say that the light counters the darkness, he said that it dissolves darkness as well. Plus even if he didn't bring up the dissolving part, if light counters darkness then that means it's superior. If it wasn't then he would've said darkness and light counter each other, not light counters darkness. One power is clearly one sided when compared to the other

 

[Kay3795]

Meliodas: "Hit me if you want"

Does that sound like a dude who regarded her power as being able to damage him?

Meliodas willingly invited Liz to hit him without mounting any defense. He allowed it.

At this point, it's already established that even a significantly physically superior opponent can be tossed around by a relative weakling if that stronger character permits it, & guess what? Meliodas permitted Liz to hit him without any resistance.

You want examples? They've actually existed since the beginning of NNT, & there are many examples.

- Meliodas got his butt thoroughly kicked by Holy Knight Guila, & it looked brutal. In reality, he was miles ahead of her in power; evident when he fought 3, significantly more powerful knights & a magician, all at the same time.

- Another recent example was naive King Arthur who thought he really was the stuff of legends against the Top Demons. He looked faster than every character in NNT, he cut 2 Top Demons in half like they were made of butter, he tossed Zeldris aside like he was yesterday's garbage, he even smacked AM Meliodas to the ground like a ping pong..... HOWEVER ALL these things happend because they allowed it. When they were done sandbagging, it was instant gg.

I repeat, Meliodas allowed Liz to hit him. perhaps he was surprised that she was still able to hit hard in human form but the fact remains that he willingly let her, therefore the slap automatically became a non-feat.

If you're looking for a Liz feat, her Indura battle is where it's at.

 

[Undina]

I’m not talking about special fire though, I’m talking about basic fire in the same way that I’m talking about basic light and darkness. Don’t try to twist this because you don’t wanna talk about it. The fact that it can be overcome doesn’t change the fact that it’s still effective against darkness. The only thing that your point shows is that it can be overcome with more effort than should be required because of the qualities of light which I’ve already stated is nothing new. I’m not sure why this is so hard to understand. This isn’t something unusual, this concept is in video games, and in real life. It’s elementary at best if it can be grasped in a kid’s game at that. Just because you don’t understand it doesn’t mean you get to say that it doesn’t apply. Majority of the forum agreed that light has advantages against darkness last time we brought this up. Your view is actually of the minority on this.
Here’s another analogy.

A spear user has several advantages over a sword user due to the reach of the weapon alone and nothing else. A sword user can overcome this if he has more skill, but it takes him a lot more effort than it normally would have if he were fighting say someone else without a spear. The spear doesn’t guarantee a win, but it gives a much better advantage. This is the same thing with light. It doesnt guarentee a win, but still provides advantages that take more effort to overcome.

As for Elizabeth’s praise you’re jumping the gun. We don’t know how he praised her. Overall power hasn’t even been mentioned yet because the chapter hasn’t come out. When you jump the gun and put forth false information, the whole form has to deal with it because others then gain this misconception. And I’m not salty. In all frankness you’re the one that tends to get worked up over Elizabeth. Just look at your past arguments with Sobreno.

It’s always the Goddess fans that start this. Even in the 260 spoilers you guys were over the moon for Elizabeth’s feats and generally are the first to try and hype her up. Aside from maybe Golgo, where are the Mel fans starting debates about why he’s gonna destroy Escanor or why he’s gonna become Jesus incarnate?

Actually we are discussing special cases, considering that Elizabeth isn't a regular goddess, she's the confirmed daughter of the anomaly of a leader of the clan who can boast deity status and so far she's her only offspring known or implied, and she's had odd statements made about her ability and power across the story, most of them being on the positive side and some of them from the mouths of the generals of the goddess army.

I understand gaming a lot better than you assume or manage to get across for your part, what are strictly physical implements doing lumped together in a strictly physical ability comparison when we're discussing a strictly magic user, moreover against prominent physical fighter(s)?!? Apples and oranges again?
Why are you ignoring the difference in effect potency between a lvl 1 skill and a level 5 skill, something that would work better even in an analogy between the abilities/skills of a lower rank goddess and elites like AAs and the princess of the clan(as well as the different requirement of stamina or mana or whatever stats fuel its application and or efficiency), or even better, between standard skills/benefits and special system upgraded/de luxe versions of those skills/benefits accessible to only special players, like "platinum", "royal" or whatnot edition buyers or the so called "cashers"/vips in the orpgs? I already acknowledged the light advantage over darkness(you still missed it), however, it's an exaggeration to claim it does most of the work(and that's what you're claiming specifically when speaking about Elizabeth, though you claim otherwise in that spear/sword analogy), since by accepting your statement about the advantage, we're getting to worse power disparity, even regular goddesses being now a serious threat to the demon elites which would by default send down the drain any hype the demons have gotten so far and it would actually lead to assuming Meliodas was nothing special and not fearsome at all, cause, hey, it doesn't matter if you're a foot soldier goddess against the vilest demon and abominably powerful warrior, the Ark solves any problem by itself, and you don't have to be high in raw energy as well, to amp its effect and help it override the skills and abilities of more troublesome demons who, in a way, are like roaches(can't believe there is one teensy detail I can agree on with squinty, but these guys can survive even nukes, when of a superior quality and power, permanently crippled or not).
Whenever it comes to Elizabeth, the Ark has to do all the work(or possibly other characters do, cause we're reading a fanfic, not NnT), because the only known child of a literal god must be inferior and pathetic despite the fact that several events and statements contradict that; whenever it comes to her her fans must shut up and ignore what is being said or shown about her, since you will get triggered if I get any satisfaction from the reveals about her if they tend to be on a positive note, because, yes, you do get salty over it, otherwise you would ignore those statements as many other people who disagree with my or the other fans' opinions often do and you wouldn't feel or fall for the itch of starting a personal debate over it with statements about "wank","continuity" and not so discreet jabs.
Also, I wouldn't be over the moon regarding Elizabeth if the series didn't give me some good reasons to, though, last time I checked, I got to the ch 260 spoilers around the moment the Edited Manga was published on MS, so, you're pretty much barking at the wrong tree.
Lastly, there are people who don't particularly like this character and can still easily understand and accept she has gotten power and hype build up and don't ignore context or go off to discussing other series imagining it's Taizai or that its author will automatically write his series that way. So, what exactly are you trying to "make me understand" with analogies that have very little to do with the subject at hand or the context of the story and that of the statements in it?!
Did I ever give you the impression I'll let you convince me to give up on my own ideas because you can point out I comment appraisingly on a character I like? How does that disprove the fact that Elizabeth has the power or feats to be considered worthy of hype?!
Did I ever state, otherwise than jokingly, that she was above everyone else, like those who overhype Mel or Escanor do?
You're one of the few who actually backs up sobreno's often bashing comments, whereas, whenever me or otaku, or TarXan or whoever else is trying to speak up for Elizabeth are trying to debate serious features and scenarios about her are trying to simply use the actual events involving and statements made about her, which may or may not be proven true, but so far have a role in representing her as a character.
And if the summary has so far claimed the strongest(most powerful, in fact, since Sunshine provides a helluva dose of magic proficiency as well) AA has been praising her, I'll assume, thanks to context, that it was about the same field he excelled in, not gardening, not healing(which is already pretty OP in the hands of all AAs), not fashion sense, nor brainwashing and I'll hold by it till the manga has it disproven. Or confirmed.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Actually we are discussing special cases, considering that Elizabeth isn't a regular goddess, she's the confirmed daughter of the anomaly of a leader of the clan who can boast deity status and so far she's her only offspring known or implied, and she's had odd statements made about her ability and power across the story, most of them being on the positive side and some of them from the mouths of the generals of the goddess army.

I understand gaming a lot better than you assume or manage to get across for your part, what are strictly physical implements doing lumped together in a strictly physical ability comparison when we're discussing a strictly magic user, moreover against prominent physical fighter(s)?!? Apples and oranges again?
Why are you ignoring the difference in effect potency between a lvl 1 skill and a level 5 skill, something that would work better even in an analogy between the abilities/skills of a lower rank goddess and elites like AAs and the princess of the clan(as well as the different requirement of stamina or mana or whatever stats fuel its application and or efficiency), or even better, between standard skills/benefits and special system upgraded/de luxe versions of those skills/benefits accessible to only special players, like "platinum", "royal" or whatnot edition buyers or the so called "cashers"/vips in the orpgs? I already acknowledged the light advantage over darkness(you still missed it), however, it's an exaggeration to claim it does most of the work(and that's what you're claiming specifically when speaking about Elizabeth, though you claim otherwise in that spear/sword analogy), since by accepting your statement about the advantage, we're getting to worse power disparity, even regular goddesses being now a serious threat to the demon elites which would by default send down the drain any hype the demons have gotten so far and it would actually lead to assuming Meliodas was nothing special and not fearsome at all, cause, hey, it doesn't matter if you're a foot soldier goddess against the vilest demon and abominably powerful warrior, the Ark solves any problem by itself, and you don't have to be high in raw energy as well, to amp its effect and help it override the skills and abilities of more troublesome demons who, in a way, are like roaches(can't believe there is one teensy detail I can agree on with squinty, but these guys can survive even nukes, when of a superior quality and power, permanently crippled or not).
Whenever it comes to Elizabeth, the Ark has to do all the work(or possibly other characters do, cause we're reading a fanfic, not NnT), because the only known child of a literal god must be inferior and pathetic despite the fact that several events and statements contradict that; whenever it comes to her her fans must shut up and ignore what is being said or shown about her, since you will get triggered if I get any satisfaction from the reveals about her if they tend to be on a positive note, because, yes, you do get salty over it, otherwise you would ignore those statements as many other people who disagree with my or the other fans' opinions often do and you wouldn't feel or fall for the itch of starting a personal debate over it with statements about "wank","continuity" and not so discreet jabs.
Also, I wouldn't be over the moon regarding Elizabeth if the series didn't give me some good reasons to, though, last time I checked, I got to the ch 260 spoilers around the moment the Edited Manga was published on MS, so, you're pretty much barking at the wrong tree.
Lastly, there are people who don't particularly like this character and can still easily understand and accept she has gotten power and hype build up and don't ignore context or go off to discussing other series imagining it's Taizai or that its author will automatically write his series that way. So, what exactly are you trying to "make me understand" with analogies that have very little to do with the subject at hand or the context of the story and that of the statements in it?!
Did I ever give you the impression I'll let you convince me to give up on my own ideas because you can point out I comment appraisingly on a character I like? How does that disprove the fact that Elizabeth has the power or feats to be considered worthy of hype?!
Did I ever state, otherwise than jokingly, that she was above everyone else, like those who overhype Mel or Escanor do?
You're one of the few who actually backs up sobreno's often bashing comments, whereas, whenever me or otaku, or TarXan or whoever else is trying to speak up for Elizabeth are trying to debate serious features and scenarios about her are trying to simply use the actual events involving and statements made about her, which may or may not be proven true, but so far have a role in representing her as a character.
And if the summary has so far claimed the strongest(most powerful, in fact, since Sunshine provides a helluva dose of magic proficiency as well) AA has been praising her, I'll assume, thanks to context, that it was about the same field he excelled in, not gardening, not healing(which is already pretty OP in the hands of all AAs), not fashion sense, nor brainwashing and I'll hold by it till the manga has it disproven. Or confirmed.

Being born of the supreme deity doesn't really mean too much as far as evidence goes, especially after the Estarossa case. I'm gonna need physical evidence of her power doing something that breaks the rules.

Also physicality and magicality aren't separate in regards to the rules of light versus dark. That has never been stated in the manga. Also it's funny that you brought up a level 1 vs a level 5, because a level 1 could beat a level 5 if the level 1 had a type advantage.

Also why is it an exaggeration to claim? Mel has a power level of 142K plus, I'd find it really odd that her magic could close such a gap even though she's cursed and since the last time her magic was compared to another nerfed AA, their magic beam went much farther into the sky. She's just a teenage girl, how much force could she provide by herself that her body would allow? Escanor has to revolve his whole life around managing his magic just to stay alive and he was born with a body that could somewhat support his power. Elizabeth was cursed with one. Sure she had some effort, but not as much as it was by her own merit as compared to the ark. Plus Kay made an excellent point about people not taking fights seriously. I'd say that his point is actually a lot more relevant than my own.

Also what triggering? You can say what you want about Elizabeth, but if it sounds suspicious people are going to reply. It's like that with every character on this form. It happened to Arthur a few weeks ago, Merlin before that, and with Mel and Escanor even prior to that. Everyone in the past complained that Escanor got too much hype for his own good and as a result it practically ruined several aspects of the manga. Because all people would talk about was him and naturally no one wants a thread with weird things from the manga.

As for the 260 spoilers, I was talking about the people who were saying "Go check out the 261 spoilers, hype train" Which was just the goddess fans

And yeah I'll back up Sobreno from time to time, but it's not like I'm actively waiting for him to write responses. His manga comparison does have merit, because Nanatsu is in fact a shonen manga that follows several shonen tropes. Diane was the girl that beat up the main character, Ban is the anti hero best friend turned good, power levels are straight up taken from DBZ. There's tons of tropes from it. I'd have more trouble believeing that Nanatsu was a completely new and original manga by itself than it was if it happened to draw inspiration form others. If you don't like him that's fine, but you can't deny that Nanatsu does have elements from other manga incorporated into it.

If you wanna say that Mael praised Elizabeth, then go ahead that's fine. What I don't agree with is stating that it's in regards to her power because that's so far not confirmed yet. These patterns are what create issues with the manga fanbases. The Itachi fanboys made him look like Jesus and as a result that got annoying because they abused his feats. The Escanor fanboys did the same, the Mel fanboys did the same, the Estarossa fanboys did the same. It's just "extra" to see it happen towards any character.

 

[Undina]

Being born of the supreme deity doesn't really mean too much as far as evidence goes, especially after the Estarossa case. I'm gonna need physical evidence of her power doing something that breaks the rules.

Also physicality and magicality aren't separate in regards to the rules of light versus dark. That has never been stated in the manga. Also it's funny that you brought up a level 1 vs a level 5, because a level 1 could beat a level 5 if the level 1 had a type advantage.

Also why is it an exaggeration to claim? Mel has a power level of 142K plus, I'd find it really odd that her magic could close such a gap even though she's cursed and since the last time her magic was compared to another nerfed AA, their magic beam went much farther into the sky. She's just a teenage girl, how much force could she provide by herself that her body would allow? Escanor has to revolve his whole life around managing his magic just to stay alive and he was born with a body that could somewhat support his power. Elizabeth was cursed with one. Sure she had some effort, but not as much as it was by her own merit as compared to the ark. Plus Kay made an excellent point about people not taking fights seriously. I'd say that his point is actually a lot more relevant than my own.

Also what triggering? You can say what you want about Elizabeth, but if it sounds suspicious people are going to reply. It's like that with every character on this form. It happened to Arthur a few weeks ago, Merlin before that, and with Mel and Escanor even prior to that. Everyone in the past complained that Escanor got too much hype for his own good and as a result it practically ruined several aspects of the manga. Because all people would talk about was him and naturally no one wants a thread with weird things from the manga.

As for the 260 spoilers, I was talking about the people who were saying "Go check out the 261 spoilers, hype train" Which was just the goddess fans

And yeah I'll back up Sobreno from time to time, but it's not like I'm actively waiting for him to write responses. His manga comparison does have merit, because Nanatsu is in fact a shonen manga that follows several shonen tropes. Diane was the girl that beat up the main character, Ban is the anti hero best friend turned good, power levels are straight up taken from DBZ. There's tons of tropes from it. I'd have more trouble believeing that Nanatsu was a completely new and original manga by itself than it was if it happened to draw inspiration form others. If you don't like him that's fine, but you can't deny that Nanatsu does have elements from other manga incorporated into it.

If you wanna say that Mael praised Elizabeth, then go ahead that's fine. What I don't agree with is stating that it's in regards to her power because that's so far not confirmed yet. These patterns are what create issues with the manga fanbases. The Itachi fanboys made him look like Jesus and as a result that got annoying because they abused his feats. The Escanor fanboys did the same, the Mel fanboys did the same, the Estarossa fanboys did the same. It's just "extra" to see it happen towards any character.

Being born of a deity matters(as proven) quite a lot 2/3 times in this series, as with the "geniuses" Meliodas and Zeldris, Estarossa has his weird case, but other than his wild-card hype he has gotten far less in universe hype and praise than Meliodas, Elizabeth, Escanor, Merlin or Zeldris. Most of his hype has been from the fandom(cause he's mysterious) and it's gotten back into attention since Cussack's statement, we don't know how will it eventually play out, but even his being the son of a deity paid up in the fact that his father's experiment on him did trigger development in him.

Type advantage only works when it's confirmed as said type being far superior to the one it's going against[I've never heard of that big level disparity being bridged by type(that's very childish and ass-pull-ish)], not a "perfect counter" which more often than not puts the <=> between the elements, not >, you're still clinging to Diane being all knowing and stating irrefutable facts,when was the "deadly" feature of Light confirmed in the story, when the TC have come into contact with it before and survived it?! Light gives an edge, not uncontested superiority over Darkness. Speaking of Diane, lol, I'm seeing more aberrations regarding her, you say she used to bruise Mel and no one made a huge case about her power?! Did you ever think it was because it only ever happened all the way back in the good ole times, against the Meliodas who had about half of her strength and that she was using exactly physicality, so it would be less impressive, cause it's logically expected to have effect?! When did she try to solo attack this over the top serious Meliodas and when did she even surprise him with taking his invitation or challenges more seriously than he expected her?! Did you ever think Meliodas was back then in a far more different state of mind than now(so how does Kay even have a point), when now he's on his guard all the time, considering that he didn't give up the PoD cover even in Elizabeth's presence or for longer than 2 seconds?! When did Diane or Guila actually surprise him or get him worried the way Elizabeth did when slapping him goddess style?! Especially since they were back then in his PL range?!
As for the power gap, it's even weirder if her ability(+ark edge) + high MP didn't bridge it cause the same 142k Meliodas still ended up on the floor stunned by her choice of action, and his only getting a bruise on the cheek not even properly hidden/defended by the PoD lapel to his vest actually takes away from that genuine exaggeration about Ark being "deadly", that's clear proof Ark can't do powerful stuff by default, otherwise he'd end up disfigured by the mere "deadly" feature of the "type advantage". Yeah, your claims don't add up.

Elizabeth was nerfed through a curse, it's already beyond the reach of dispute that in her original form she was at least AA level in raw power, and the AAs were back then singling her as special and some do even now, regarding ability, you can argue as much as you like against her physical feats, but when magic gets into the mix, you can't touch that. The claim about Ark itself also doesn't make any sense when in 2 consecutive chapters and instances, a goddess relatively weaker(there's no statement in the manga that I know of saying Nerobasta was actually much weaker) than Derrieri, failed to properly damage Derrieri and only enraged her and that while knowing what to do, while a still amnesiac Elizabeth managed to instinctively cast a miniature ark and easily melt away the same Derrieri's hand, that isn't even about Ark anymore, or PL, but individual ability quality regarding Nerobasta VS Elizabeth, it's obvious who wins despite the extensive impairment of Elizabeth. So, if you want to argue Elizabeth herself has a "type advantage" over Nerobasta or even the AAs, then that's more along the lines of the manga.

I was making the same point, it'd be absurd if Elizabeth, with the body of a supermodel who doesn't care about physical feats, didn't have her magic and "type advantage" to make up for the disparity between her physical form/shape against people like Escanor or Meliodas and still topple Meliodas, who is an acknowledged physical strength monster, I've been saying this from the beginning, what were you reading from these posts?! I'm simply not exaggerating over Ark's individual feats, as it doesn't have them. Neither in the Nerobasta/Elizabeth/Derrieri dynamic, nor in Elizabeth flooring Meliodas(it's too inconsistent if we rely on its "deadly" feature). And what effort on Elizabeth's part, keeping her eyes closed to the blinding light or reaching higher than usually to add momentum to the crazy ball of light? While Mel was hilariously bulging his eyes cause he realised she was fully intent on actually slapping him, not on tickling him the way humans would?!

Yes, if it sounds suspicious, people would reply directly to the statements, not try to bait those they disagree with with passive aggressive remarks.
So, how does it other characters being hyped or dehyped effectively prove anything about Elizabeth's case for you to get so invested into arguments about her as to try to match tit for that the "abusive" fans?! You're sounding suspicious as well, only closer to a different "extreme", though you're trying to deny it.
As for the 260 spoilers, you still included me in that "you people", again, a poor choice of words on your part.

Moreover, now you're going for tropes when I'm also one of the people to often recognise them as well,just like inspiration, does that prove that Elizabeth's pattern and development is going the same way as Chi Chi's or Bulma's, or any other main girl you and sobreno were bringing up?! I don't really know about some of them, but there are many who were portrayed very, very differently from Elizabeth regarding pretty much every angle, it doesn't make this story trope or stereotype free, it simply has different tropes and mold regarding Elizabeth than the ones you're eagerly going for. It doesn't only take inspiration from shounen, but also shoujo, the latter especially for the female characters.

And the statement about Mael praising Elizabeth was made in a phrase emphasising the fact he was "the strongest"(most powerful) AA, ofc it suggests it was about power and ability, not trivial stuff or only OP/aoe healing, which was already also displayed by Sariel and Tarmiel during their "return" as hosted by Solasido and Arbus, complete with flowery field.

 

[OtakuFreak]

What do you mean exceptions aren't made? Literally Escanor praised Merlin, yet no one hyped up Merlin to being that powerful. Diane used to be able to leave giant bruises on Mel, yet no one attributed this to her power.

A slap isn't a combat feat. Any animal knows how to throw a punch. When we say combat feats, we mean her fighting skills against another skilled fighter. But we haven't seen any yet because she's either ko'ed or being saved by someone else

Monspeet and Diane have already said that light is deadly to demons. I literally can't think of any other way the evidence is more evident than that.

You don't need as much power behind the ark for it to do more damage than it should. Nerobasta was able to cause Derieri to have to exert herself inspire of the fact that she's much weaker. It doesn't require that much strength. Plus Elizabeth is a human girl with normal human strength. Again, ark can be overcome, but it takes much more effort than would be required by any other attack.

The Demon King comparison doesn't even make sense. I don't care who gave estarossa his powers, I care about the properties of his power. In his case, none of his powers have an advantage against Monspeet's body. Unlike Elizabeth, darkness doesn't decompose darkness. Light has been stated by Monspeet to decompose darkness and has been stated by Diane to be deadly to "a demon like meliodas" So unless Diane is racist towards demons and thinks they're weaker, light is more effective.

Merlin's praise is dumb because she gave the same praise to Arthur, who is in a state of death and life and the 4AA never praised her power like you're trying to make it seem. They said that others would need her aid. Not her power, her aid because she's useful in a sense that she can heal. Aid isn't power in this context.

Also Monspeet didn't just say that the light counters the darkness, he said that it dissolves darkness as well. Plus even if he didn't bring up the dissolving part, if light counters darkness then that means it's superior. If it wasn't then he would've said darkness and light counter each other, not light counters darkness. One power is clearly one sided when compared to the other

Okay, let's not count the slap as a ''combat feat'' and instead just a ''feat''.

Monspiet only said light acts as a counter to their darkness, not superior.

Diane only said it's ''deadly'' to a demon at Diane, you can't pick out an interpretation that leads to ''well this means that light is superior to darkness''. Also, Diane hardly has any knowledge on light vs demon topics, so don't take her words as the gospel.

So you're telling me that ark makes up for the large gap of power that is between a Goddess and a Demon? Fair enough for the power of light being able to cover a little bit of ground between two opponents, such as how Nerobasta was initially able to effect Derriere but in the end lost, because she didn't have the power to finish the job - but telling me that the PoL makes up for a huge portion of power against a demonic opponent doesn't make any sense.

Suggesting that the PoL is superior by large amounts to the PoD that it allows a much more inferior Goddess have the potential to easily injure a higher tier demon ruins the entire context of the series and both clans. The Goddesses and Demons are portrayed as relative equals, so having one side having the superior elemental advantage doesn't fit into this portrayal. If the PoL > PoD then this means the Supreme Deity is vastly stronger than the Demon King and once again gives the Goddesses an advantage. If the PoL is truly superior to the PoD then why are the AA's so fearful of Meliodas? All they need to do is combine their 3/4 arks and Meliodas will be easily wiped according to this logic. Additionally, how did the Goddesses no absolutely wipe the demons after they were crippled during the holy war if they had the elemental superiority? Suggesting that PoL > PoD doesn't fit into the context of the series. But I'll give you a few more examples to address my point:

How does Ludoshel, the second/strongest Archangel completely fail to affect Indura Derriere with his supposedly superior form of elemental magic that is ''deadly to demons''? She didn't defend herself with darkness, the same as to how Meliodas allowed Elizabeth to hit him, and Ludoshel's attack didn't even leave a scratch on her. His magic completely failed.

How does Elizabeth not independently fully purify the Indura? At first she was able to relatively easy push them back and make them suffer but when they strengthened themselves with their darkness, they were able to start resisting her light - something that according to PoL > PoD shouldn't happen. Even Meliodas comments that the darkness within them was resisting Elizabeth's light. How is this possible if PoL is so vastly superior to PoD? We all know Elizabeth's strongest attribute to her strength is magical power, so how in a magical context was Indura able to resist her light with their darkness if your argument is the truth here?

The reason why this is the interpretation exists: ''ark can be overcome, but it takes much more effort than would be required by any other attack'' is because the Demon Clan are not magic orientated fighters, they rely mostly on their physical strength. Derriere didn't break out of the Light bubble that Nerobasta placed on her with her darkness, she broke out with her physical strength which then had a surge of darkness flowing out after. Unlike the Indura situation, where you can clearly see them using their darkness to resist the light, you don't here with Derriere breaking out of the bubble: it was purely physical strength she used to overcome the Ark, not the power of darkness. Now of course it's going to be difficult to overcome an element of magical power with just physical strength alone, especially when the bubble placed her in a disadvantageous physical position. Because the Goddesses are magical orientated fighters and are generally much more effective fighters in this category, it is going to give the impression that the PoL > PoD is a thing, because these attributes are magically orientated. However, when the demons step up their game and become better equipped at using their darkness (meaning stronger) then you see how the PoL starts to fail, because finally the PoD is being used at an even level. Indura, is a contract with the darkness, it's the purest form of darkness and most likely the highest form of power a demon can have with the darkness, and we saw the results: the AA's light failed miserably, Elizabeth's light only worked before the darkness reacted significantly and she needed help to overpower the darkness with her light and if she didn't receive a power boost, the darkness would've SUCCESSFULLY overpowered the light - something that you suggest wouldn't happen. The Indura situation proved to an extent that the PoD CAN overpower the PoL - because it's based on individual strength than elemental advantage.

Just because light can dissolve and counter-act the darkness doesn't make it superior - it only means it has the opportunity and possibility to act as an equivalent reactor. Neutralizing something doesn't equal light being superior. If Monspiet was trying to suggest that light is superior to darkness, why not just come out and say that instead of the whole ''it acts as a counter to our darkness by...''

I used the Demon King comparison because you're suggesting that Elizabeth's power/feat is only accredited to an external source - the power of light. So since Estarossa's entire arsenal and power came from another source (his father) it stands to reason that Esta shouldn't receive any credit for his strength, right? But no, it doesn't work like that. Elizabeth deserves credit for her power of light, regardless of it being weaker, stronger, or equivalent to the power of darkness etc.

The AA's on more than one occasion have praised Elizabeth's strength. Sariel's praise is vague in interpretation, but even then: Ludoshel clearly told us during the Indura situation that her magic power was significantly powerful, since if she used it in combination with Ludoshel's light, they would be able to defeat the Indura. Ludoshel didn't even comment back on Sariel's praise, and instead silently agreed. And now we have a third praise from the AA's (from Mael) that is praising Elizabeth. The AA's consistently have been shown to praise their princess, and it's not just for her healing abilities.

(I was going to reply to your other comment against Undina, but this is probably enough for the both of us atm lol )

Meliodas: "Hit me if you want"

Does that sound like a dude who regarded her power as being able to damage him?

Meliodas willingly invited Liz to hit him without mounting any defense. He allowed it.

At this point, it's already established that even a significantly physically superior opponent can be tossed around by a relative weakling if that stronger character permits it, & guess what? Meliodas permitted Liz to hit him without any resistance.

You want examples? They've actually existed since the beginning of NNT, & there are many examples.

- Meliodas got his butt thoroughly kicked by Holy Knight Guila, & it looked brutal. In reality, he was miles ahead of her in power; evident when he fought 3, significantly more powerful knights & a magician, all at the same time.

- Another recent example was naive King Arthur who thought he really was the stuff of legends against the Top Demons. He looked faster than every character in NNT, he cut 2 Top Demons in half like they were made of butter, he tossed Zeldris aside like he was yesterday's garbage, he even smacked AM Meliodas to the ground like a ping pong..... HOWEVER ALL these things happend because they allowed it. When they were done sandbagging, it was instant gg.

I repeat, Meliodas allowed Liz to hit him. perhaps he was surprised that she was still able to hit hard in human form but the fact remains that he willingly let her, therefore the slap automatically became a non-feat.

If you're looking for a Liz feat, her Indura battle is where it's at.

Meliodas was not expecting Elizabeth to hit him. Elizabeth who has consistently said on more than one ocassion that she will ALWAYS be by his side and always agree with him suddenly hitting him? Yeah, that is something he did not expect to happen because she is always obedient to him. Meliodas face after he got hit was of both shock and awe: he was surprised that she even HIT him to begin with and that such an attack was able to move him and BRUISE him.

Meliodas as you said, willingly invited Liz to hit him: there was a part of him that was expecting it to happen, so he wasn't completely physically and mentally unprepared. Also, let's not as silly here: being off guard or whatever doesn't mean Meliodas durability is suddenly lower. We all know Meliodas could've actually defended against that attack if he wanted to with full counter. But irrespective of that, Elizabeth was able to physically MOVE him (he was even holding her arm) and give him a bruised cheek in the process.

''At this point, it's already established that even a significantly physically superior opponent can be tossed around by a relative weakling if that stronger character permits it, & guess what? Meliodas permitted Liz to hit him without any resistance. -'' the problem with this quote is the fact that Elizabeth not only MOVED him, but also did damage to him. In regards to your examples, King Arthur didn't do any damage to Meliodas but was able to move him. Guila only did as well as she did because it was commented by King after that they weren't even at their full power, since they didn't have possession of their sacred treasures. But Meliodas here against Elizabeth was in his strongest form, just not 100% defensively prepared for the slap.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Okay, let's not count the slap as a ''combat feat'' and instead just a ''feat''.

Monspiet only said light acts as a counter to their darkness, not superior.

Diane only said it's ''deadly'' to a demon at Diane, you can't pick out an interpretation that leads to ''well this means that light is superior to darkness''. Also, Diane hardly has any knowledge on light vs demon topics, so don't take her words as the gospel.

So you're telling me that ark makes up for the large gap of power that is between a Goddess and a Demon? Fair enough for the power of light being able to cover a little bit of ground between two opponents, such as how Nerobasta was initially able to effect Derriere but in the end lost, because she didn't have the power to finish the job - but telling me that the PoL makes up for a huge portion of power against a demonic opponent doesn't make any sense.

Suggesting that the PoL is superior by large amounts to the PoD that it allows a much more inferior Goddess have the potential to easily injure a higher tier demon ruins the entire context of the series and both clans. The Goddesses and Demons are portrayed as relative equals, so having one side having the superior elemental advantage doesn't fit into this portrayal. If the PoL > PoD then this means the Supreme Deity is vastly stronger than the Demon King and once again gives the Goddesses an advantage. If the PoL is truly superior to the PoD then why are the AA's so fearful of Meliodas? All they need to do is combine their 3/4 arks and Meliodas will be easily wiped according to this logic. Additionally, how did the Goddesses no absolutely wipe the demons after they were crippled during the holy war if they had the elemental superiority? Suggesting that PoL > PoD doesn't fit into the context of the series. But I'll give you a few more examples to address my point:

How does Ludoshel, the second/strongest Archangel completely fail to affect Indura Derriere with his supposedly superior form of elemental magic that is ''deadly to demons''? She didn't defend herself with darkness, the same as to how Meliodas allowed Elizabeth to hit him, and Ludoshel's attack didn't even leave a scratch on her. His magic completely failed.

How does Elizabeth not independently fully purify the Indura? At first she was able to relatively easy push them back and make them suffer but when they strengthened themselves with their darkness, they were able to start resisting her light - something that according to PoL > PoD shouldn't happen. Even Meliodas comments that the darkness within them was resisting Elizabeth's light. How is this possible if PoL is so vastly superior to PoD? We all know Elizabeth's strongest attribute to her strength is magical power, so how in a magical context was Indura able to resist her light with their darkness if your argument is the truth here?

The reason why this is the interpretation exists: ''ark can be overcome, but it takes much more effort than would be required by any other attack'' is because the Demon Clan are not magic orientated fighters, they rely mostly on their physical strength. Derriere didn't break out of the Light bubble that Nerobasta placed on her with her darkness, she broke out with her physical strength which then had a surge of darkness flowing out after. Unlike the Indura situation, where you can clearly see them using their darkness to resist the light, you don't here with Derriere breaking out of the bubble: it was purely physical strength she used to overcome the Ark, not the power of darkness. Now of course it's going to be difficult to overcome an element of magical power with just physical strength alone, especially when the bubble placed her in a disadvantageous physical position. Because the Goddesses are magical orientated fighters and are generally much more effective fighters in this category, it is going to give the impression that the PoL > PoD is a thing, because these attributes are magically orientated. However, when the demons step up their game and become better equipped at using their darkness (meaning stronger) then you see how the PoL starts to fail, because finally the PoD is being used at an even level. Indura, is a contract with the darkness, it's the purest form of darkness and most likely the highest form of power a demon can have with the darkness, and we saw the results: the AA's light failed miserably, Elizabeth's light only worked before the darkness reacted significantly and she needed help to overpower the darkness with her light and if she didn't receive a power boost, the darkness would've SUCCESSFULLY overpowered the light - something that you suggest wouldn't happen. The Indura situation proved to an extent that the PoD CAN overpower the PoL - because it's based on individual strength than elemental advantage.

Just because light can dissolve and counter-act the darkness doesn't make it superior - it only means it has the opportunity and possibility to act as an equivalent reactor. Neutralizing something doesn't equal light being superior. If Monspiet was trying to suggest that light is superior to darkness, why not just come out and say that instead of the whole ''it acts as a counter to our darkness by...''

I used the Demon King comparison because you're suggesting that Elizabeth's power/feat is only accredited to an external source - the power of light. So since Estarossa's entire arsenal and power came from another source (his father) it stands to reason that Esta shouldn't receive any credit for his strength, right? But no, it doesn't work like that. Elizabeth deserves credit for her power of light, regardless of it being weaker, stronger, or equivalent to the power of darkness etc.

The AA's on more than one occasion have praised Elizabeth's strength. Sariel's praise is vague in interpretation, but even then: Ludoshel clearly told us during the Indura situation that her magic power was significantly powerful, since if she used it in combination with Ludoshel's light, they would be able to defeat the Indura. Ludoshel didn't even comment back on Sariel's praise, and instead silently agreed. And now we have a third praise from the AA's (from Mael) that is praising Elizabeth. The AA's consistently have been shown to praise their princess, and it's not just for her healing abilities.

(I was going to reply to your other comment against Undina, but this is probably enough for the both of us atm lol )



Meliodas was not expecting Elizabeth to hit him. Elizabeth who has consistently said on more than one ocassion that she will ALWAYS be by his side and always agree with him suddenly hitting him? Yeah, that is something he did not expect to happen because she is always obedient to him. Meliodas face after he got hit was of both shock and awe: he was surprised that she even HIT him to begin with and that such an attack was able to move him and BRUISE him.

Meliodas as you said, willingly invited Liz to hit him: there was a part of him that was expecting it to happen, so he wasn't completely physically and mentally unprepared. Also, let's not as silly here: being off guard or whatever doesn't mean Meliodas durability is suddenly lower. We all know Meliodas could've actually defended against that attack if he wanted to with full counter. But irrespective of that, Elizabeth was able to physically MOVE him (he was even holding her arm) and give him a bruised cheek in the process.

''At this point, it's already established that even a significantly physically superior opponent can be tossed around by a relative weakling if that stronger character permits it, & guess what? Meliodas permitted Liz to hit him without any resistance. -'' the problem with this quote is the fact that Elizabeth not only MOVED him, but also did damage to him. In regards to your examples, King Arthur didn't do any damage to Meliodas but was able to move him. Guila only did as well as she did because it was commented by King after that they weren't even at their full power, since they didn't have possession of their sacred treasures. But Meliodas here against Elizabeth was in his strongest form, just not 100% defensively prepared for the slap.

Monspeet said that light dissolves darkness. He said no such thing about light though. Also why would I doubt Diane. You can't just say "Don't trust her." She isn't Merlin who's been wrong for several chapters.

Also yeah it is a big advantage. The fact that fodder like Nerobasta made Derieri have to exert herself says a lot. Especially considering that Nerobasta was afraid of Melascula and that she was in a human body that she didn't like.

Also I'm not talking about where the power came from. I'm talking about its properties. Estarossa had to beat Monspeet with techniques that have no added advantage. Elizabeth's light is her own light so I'm not sure why you're brining in Estarossa. Being weak or strong doesn't take away a basic biological factor.

Also magic and the physical doesn't change anything. Ark dissolves darkness which works as both magic and as a part of a demon's nature. Gray Demons got dissolved just the same without using their power of darkness. Because darkness is in a demon's nature.

Also the Derieri thing is your artistic interpretation. I see it as her using her darkness to break out of it. It couldn't have been her physical body because she wasn't fully touching it yet.

Again, power of light offers and advantage as I've been saying. But it can be overcome with an extra amount of effort that wouldn't normally be required with other attacks. This however, doesn't take away from the fact that it still is an advantageous type. It just means it's not an end all be all power. Are you not reading what I'm saying? I've said it like 3 times to Undina. Look at pokemon, a level one water type can beat a level 5 fire type because of type advantage. Yet, a level 20 fire type will beat a level 1 water type. Regardless of power, the basic biological advantage is still there.

Also keep in mind for Kay's point damage really doesn't matter. Cusack who is said to be equal to Zeldris in his base took damage while Zeldris did not. It's just art style.

Also monspeet said nothing about them being equivalent. If something dissolves something, then that means the other thing is more potent. Chemistry teaches this. No one says that the human body counters an acid spill.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 1, 2018, Original Post Date: Apr 1, 2018 ---

Being born of a deity matters(as proven) quite a lot 2/3 times in this series, as with the "geniuses" Meliodas and Zeldris, Estarossa has his weird case, but other than his wild-card hype he has gotten far less in universe hype and praise than Meliodas, Elizabeth, Escanor, Merlin or Zeldris. Most of his hype has been from the fandom(cause he's mysterious) and it's gotten back into attention since Cussack's statement, we don't know how will it eventually play out, but even his being the son of a deity paid up in the fact that his father's experiment on him did trigger development in him.

Type advantage only works when it's confirmed as said type being far superior to the one it's going against[I've never heard of that big level disparity being bridged by type(that's very childish and ass-pull-ish)], not a "perfect counter" which more often than not puts the <=> between the elements, not >, you're still clinging to Diane being all knowing and stating irrefutable facts,when was the "deadly" feature of Light confirmed in the story, when the TC have come into contact with it before and survived it?! Light gives an edge, not uncontested superiority over Darkness. Speaking of Diane, lol, I'm seeing more aberrations regarding her, you say she used to bruise Mel and no one made a huge case about her power?! Did you ever think it was because it only ever happened all the way back in the good ole times, against the Meliodas who had about half of her strength and that she was using exactly physicality, so it would be less impressive, cause it's logically expected to have effect?! When did she try to solo attack this over the top serious Meliodas and when did she even surprise him with taking his invitation or challenges more seriously than he expected her?! Did you ever think Meliodas was back then in a far more different state of mind than now(so how does Kay even have a point), when now he's on his guard all the time, considering that he didn't give up the PoD cover even in Elizabeth's presence or for longer than 2 seconds?! When did Diane or Guila actually surprise him or get him worried the way Elizabeth did when slapping him goddess style?! Especially since they were back then in his PL range?!
As for the power gap, it's even weirder if her ability(+ark edge) + high MP didn't bridge it cause the same 142k Meliodas still ended up on the floor stunned by her choice of action, and his only getting a bruise on the cheek not even properly hidden/defended by the PoD lapel to his vest actually takes away from that genuine exaggeration about Ark being "deadly", that's clear proof Ark can't do powerful stuff by default, otherwise he'd end up disfigured by the mere "deadly" feature of the "type advantage". Yeah, your claims don't add up.

Elizabeth was nerfed through a curse, it's already beyond the reach of dispute that in her original form she was at least AA level in raw power, and the AAs were back then singling her as special and some do even now, regarding ability, you can argue as much as you like against her physical feats, but when magic gets into the mix, you can't touch that. The claim about Ark itself also doesn't make any sense when in 2 consecutive chapters and instances, a goddess relatively weaker(there's no statement in the manga that I know of saying Nerobasta was actually much weaker) than Derrieri, failed to properly damage Derrieri and only enraged her and that while knowing what to do, while a still amnesiac Elizabeth managed to instinctively cast a miniature ark and easily melt away the same Derrieri's hand, that isn't even about Ark anymore, or PL, but individual ability quality regarding Nerobasta VS Elizabeth, it's obvious who wins despite the extensive impairment of Elizabeth. So, if you want to argue Elizabeth herself has a "type advantage" over Nerobasta or even the AAs, then that's more along the lines of the manga.

I was making the same point, it'd be absurd if Elizabeth, with the body of a supermodel who doesn't care about physical feats, didn't have her magic and "type advantage" to make up for the disparity between her physical form/shape against people like Escanor or Meliodas and still topple Meliodas, who is an acknowledged physical strength monster, I've been saying this from the beginning, what were you reading from these posts?! I'm simply not exaggerating over Ark's individual feats, as it doesn't have them. Neither in the Nerobasta/Elizabeth/Derrieri dynamic, nor in Elizabeth flooring Meliodas(it's too inconsistent if we rely on its "deadly" feature). And what effort on Elizabeth's part, keeping her eyes closed to the blinding light or reaching higher than usually to add momentum to the crazy ball of light? While Mel was hilariously bulging his eyes cause he realised she was fully intent on actually slapping him, not on tickling him the way humans would?!

Yes, if it sounds suspicious, people would reply directly to the statements, not try to bait those they disagree with with passive aggressive remarks.
So, how does it other characters being hyped or dehyped effectively prove anything about Elizabeth's case for you to get so invested into arguments about her as to try to match tit for that the "abusive" fans?! You're sounding suspicious as well, only closer to a different "extreme", though you're trying to deny it.
As for the 260 spoilers, you still included me in that "you people", again, a poor choice of words on your part.

Moreover, now you're going for tropes when I'm also one of the people to often recognise them as well,just like inspiration, does that prove that Elizabeth's pattern and development is going the same way as Chi Chi's or Bulma's, or any other main girl you and sobreno were bringing up?! I don't really know about some of them, but there are many who were portrayed very, very differently from Elizabeth regarding pretty much every angle, it doesn't make this story trope or stereotype free, it simply has different tropes and mold regarding Elizabeth than the ones you're eagerly going for. It doesn't only take inspiration from shounen, but also shoujo, the latter especially for the female characters.

And the statement about Mael praising Elizabeth was made in a phrase emphasising the fact he was "the strongest"(most powerful) AA, ofc it suggests it was about power and ability, not trivial stuff or only OP/aoe healing, which was already also displayed by Sariel and Tarmiel during their "return" as hosted by Solasido and Arbus, complete with flowery field.

But how do we know that Elizabeth isn't a less than spectacular daughter? She wasn't part of any military order and had no graces.

Also I'm not going to not trust Diane just because you don't believe her because you like Elizabeth. Until we have reason to doubt her, her words are true. You don't see me saying "Mael didn't praise Elizabeth, Gowther was lying."

Also what do you mean Mel's always on his guard? Sure he's alert, but he doesn't think that he's gonna get back stabbed. And of course his darkness is always gonna be active. They act as his clothes in a way.

Regardless if Mel was weaker, Diane was still never given much hype for her strength. Plus a demon's darkness is apart of their bodies as well. The blood of a demon gave Hendrickson darkness and that's a physical aspect.

Also I've been saying it since day 1 that light has a type advantage over darkness, but it can still be overcome. Mel however, just isn't at a point where his body can completely negate the advantage, and even if he could that doesn't change the properties of light, it just makes them hard to notice. If I have a body to resist to a bee's venom, that doesn't mean the bee loses it's venom advantage, it just means I outclass the bee. But still, there are still bees that can kill humans even though they have weak stings. The reason being they have a venom advantage.

Also Nerobasta is much weaker than Derieri if she was afraid of Melascula. She was clearly hurting Derieri, the reason she didn't take much damage was because she broke out quicker and because Nerobasta was nerfed. Still, you could still see pieces of her skin beginning to flake off.

And we're just going to assume Elizabeth gets special treatment with the tropes? First we say they cant be compared now we're saying they can be. Interesting.

Also Kay's argument makes plenty of sense. You even used it last time if you recall.
"Elizabeth got ko'ed because she wasn't paying attention to the fight against Derieri"
But when Mel get's hit because he doesn't wanna fight seriously, things change? It's already been said that power levels increase in fighting situations. Same way that a human's durability increases when they're on their guard or have adrenaline.

Also to say that I'm as invested in protecting Elizabeth's honor as you is a stretch. The whole light versus dark debate started because you and Otaku originally found issues with my claims instead of just "letting them be" as you say. We wouldn't even be having this debate if people waiting for the spoilers to bring more insights instead of jumping the gun. And yeah I included amongst the Elizabeth fans.... I'm going to take a guess and assume you are one.

Also why do you find it necessary to try and narrate what people are doing? What exactly am I denying? You haven't even asked me any questions to deny in the first place...

The only way that the whole advantage argument doesn't make sense is if you assume that I don't know what the word advantage means. I never said light beats darkness 100% of the time, I said that light has an advantage because it dissolves darkness and takes more effort from darkness to overcome it.

 

[Kay3795]

Meliodas was not expecting Elizabeth to hit him. Elizabeth who has consistently said on more than one ocassion that she will ALWAYS be by his side and always agree with him suddenly hitting him? Yeah, that is something he did not expect to happen because she is always obedient to him. Meliodas face after he got hit was of both shock and awe: he was surprised that she even HIT him to begin with and that such an attack was able to move him and BRUISE him.

You evidently missed the part where I acknowledged that the act of hitting him like that in human form might have surprised him, but I repeat, this is irrelevant because he allowed himself to be hit.

Meliodas as you said, willingly invited Liz to hit him: there was a part of him that was expecting it to happen, so he wasn't completely physically and mentally unprepared. Also, let's not as silly here: being off guard or whatever doesn't mean Meliodas durability is suddenly lower. We all know Meliodas could've actually defended against that attack if he wanted to with full counter. But irrespective of that, Elizabeth was able to physically MOVE him (he was even holding her arm) and give him a bruised cheek in the process.

You're reaching to high-heavens.

If Meliodas wanted to be prepped for it, that slap would've accomplished didly squat. Actually, if Meliodas prepped for it, Liz's frail human body would been instantly crippled at the intensity of his mere presence.

Look, I also got hyped when the chapter came out when Liz hit Meliodas, & I thought this proved a point (I even expressed it on the forum); but after thinking about it again, I must've been smoking some really strong stuff to think that proved a point (I was hyped lol) simply because Meliodas allowed it.

.....' the problem with this quote is the fact that Elizabeth not only MOVED him, but also did damage to him. In regards to your examples, King Arthur didn't do any damage to Meliodas but was able to move him. Guila only did as well as she did because it was commented by King after that they weren't even at their full power, since they didn't have possession of their sacred treasures. But Meliodas here against Elizabeth was in his strongest form, just not 100% defensively prepared for the slap.

Arthur cut Cusack & Chandler in half. Did you miss this? He also hit Zeldris so hard, he seemed to have screamed like a chicken (lol).... but it was all an act. Now, Is receiving a bruise on the cheek more severe than a severed limb, severed head, full mid-body cut? Do you really wanna argue that it is? Yet we're told that the latter literally didn't do squat because they (Top Demons) allowed it to happen.

Meliodas vs Guila was only one example; I can present others. Also those weapons doesn't improve physicality (durability) so the SDS (Meliodas) not having a ST was irrelevant. The main point was that Melodies received too much bodily damage from comparative fodder Knights when he was GHK+ class because he wasn't serious. This is evident because Meliodas later took on the fury of ALL Holy Knights of the Kingdom, including those significantly above that fodder knight that kicked his butt so badly, & of the SDS to initiate Revenge Counter against Hendrickson.

btw Ban also got his butt kicked severely by 2 HK who were relatively weaklings (Till this day, he still doesn't have his ST). The same Ban later on smacked the nonsense out of a GHK on steroids (red demon Hendrickson).

Diane also got destroyed by a newbie yet latter on took on much stronger Knights.



I could go on but I don't want to go off on a tirade so I repeat & conclude with Melodies let it happen. That's literally all I needed to point out to dispel the notion that the slap was worth anything, & that's all I will say.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 1, 2018, Original Post Date: Apr 1, 2018 ---

...You even used it last time if you recall.
"Elizabeth got ko'ed because she wasn't paying attention to the fight against Derieri"
But when Mel get's hit because he doesn't wanna fight seriously, things change?.....

Honestly, I would've given a 100 likes or points on this point alone if it were possible. A fantastic point!

 

[OtakuFreak]

Monspeet said that light dissolves darkness. He said no such thing about light though. Also why would I doubt Diane. You can't just say "Don't trust her." She isn't Merlin who's been wrong for several chapters.

Also yeah it is a big advantage. The fact that fodder like Nerobasta made Derieri have to exert herself says a lot. Especially considering that Nerobasta was afraid of Melascula and that she was in a human body that she didn't like.

Also I'm not talking about where the power came from. I'm talking about its properties. Estarossa had to beat Monspeet with techniques that have no added advantage. Elizabeth's light is her own light so I'm not sure why you're brining in Estarossa. Being weak or strong doesn't take away a basic biological factor.

Also magic and the physical doesn't change anything. Ark dissolves darkness which works as both magic and as a part of a demon's nature. Gray Demons got dissolved just the same without using their power of darkness. Because darkness is in a demon's nature.

Also the Derieri thing is your artistic interpretation. I see it as her using her darkness to break out of it. It couldn't have been her physical body because she wasn't fully touching it yet.

Again, power of light offers and advantage as I've been saying. But it can be overcome with an extra amount of effort that wouldn't normally be required with other attacks. This however, doesn't take away from the fact that it still is an advantageous type. It just means it's not an end all be all power. Are you not reading what I'm saying? I've said it like 3 times to Undina. Look at pokemon, a level one water type can beat a level 5 fire type because of type advantage. Yet, a level 20 fire type will beat a level 1 water type. Regardless of power, the basic biological advantage is still there.

Also keep in mind for Kay's point damage really doesn't matter. Cusack who is said to be equal to Zeldris in his base took damage while Zeldris did not. It's just art style.

Also monspeet said nothing about them being equivalent. If something dissolves something, then that means the other thing is more potent. Chemistry teaches this. No one says that the human body counters an acid spill.

Monspiet's comment is still only suggesting that light can counter-act against the darkness, not act as a superior elemental magic against it.
Because Diane is a Giantess who has barely any experience or knowledge about the Goddesses and Demons? Especially when it comes to how their own magics work + demon biology. At least Merlin has this knowledge even if she makes mistakes.

So instead of trying to dismiss Elizabeth with a ''it's all the ark's credit not her'' start talking about the properties of HER specific ark.

You're saying light can be overcome with ''extra amount of effort'' yet there have been examples where the power of darkness or demons have resisted the PoL without much effort.

It's not just ''art style'' - you think Nakaba would put in that detail for nothing? He's clearly hyping her character up.

Monspiet's statement isn't conclusively saying PoL > PoD but rather that PoL has the ability to cancel the PoD.

You evidently missed the part where I acknowledged that the act of hitting him like that in human form might have surprised him, but I repeat, this is irrelevant because he allowed himself to be hit.

You're reaching to high-heavens.

If Meliodas wanted to be prepped for it, that slap would've accomplished didly squat. Actually, if Meliodas prepped for it, Liz's frail human body would been instantly crippled at the intensity of his mere presence.

Look, I also got hyped when the chapter came out when Liz hit Meliodas, & I thought this proved a point (I even expressed it on the forum); but after thinking about it again, I must've been smoking some really strong stuff to think that proved a point (I was hyped lol) simply because Meliodas allowed it.

Arthur cut Cusack & Chandler in half. Did you miss this? He also hit Zeldris so hard, he seemed to have screamed like a chicken (lol).... but it was all an act. Now, Is receiving a bruise on the cheek more severe than a severed limb, severed head, full mid-body cut? Do you really wanna argue that it is? Yet we're told that the latter literally didn't do squat because they (Top Demons) allowed it to happen.

Meliodas vs Guila was only one example; I can present others. Also those weapons doesn't improve physicality (durability) so the SDS (Meliodas) not having a ST was irrelevant. The main point was that Melodies received too much bodily damage from comparative fodder Knights when he was GHK+ class because he wasn't serious. This is evident because Meliodas later took on the fury of ALL Holy Knights of the Kingdom, including those significantly above that fodder knight that kicked his butt so badly, & of the SDS to initiate Revenge Counter against Hendrickson.

btw Ban also got his butt kicked severely by 2 HK who were relatively weaklings (Till this day, he still doesn't have his ST). The same Ban later on smacked the nonsense out of a GHK on steroids (red demon Hendrickson).

Diane also got destroyed by a newbie yet latter on took on much stronger Knights.

I could go on but I don't want to go off on a tirade so I repeat & conclude with Melodies let it happen. That's literally all I needed to point out to dispel the notion that the slap was worth anything, & that's all I will say.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 1, 2018, Original Post Date: Apr 1, 2018 ---

Honestly, I would've given a 100 likes or points on this point alone if it were possible. A fantastic point!

It doesn't matter that he allowed it to happen. Like I said, Meliodas standing there and half-expecting it coming his way doesn't suddenly reduce his durability or defences. With the Arthur scenario, he allowed the young King to purposefully come after him and slice with the holy sword Excalibur, but there wasn't a single scratch on him. Now you switch to the exact same scenario with Elizabeth, he allows her to slap him and she is able to move and BRUISE him, unlike Arthur who only fulfilled the first effect.

Once again it is irrelevant that he was willing to let her slap him because his defences don't magically reduce. The moment showed that Elizabeth was able to move and minimally damage him. So the whole ''well he let her'' do it situation means diddly squat here - especially when you can argue that Meliodas still had a portion of his defense up innately through his Assault Mode, which provides darkness as a form of protection.

Also Kay's argument makes plenty of sense. You even used it last time if you recall.
"Elizabeth got ko'ed because she wasn't paying attention to the fight against Derieri"
But when Mel get's hit because he doesn't wanna fight seriously, things change? It's already been said that power levels increase in fighting situations. Same way that a human's durability increases when they're on their guard or have adrenaline.

I remember you specifically saying that Elizabeth getting KO'ED by Derriere established her as physically weak and didn't discredit it. In fact, you used the moment to argue against my argument of Elizabeth being a powerful Goddess.

Now in the same exact situation you're taking the other side of the coin by trying to actually defend Meliodas and say that Elizabeth slapping him isn't a feat or something to credit - yet it's the same exact moment, just roles reversed.

It feels like you're attempting to grasp at any straws there are in order to not credit her character - the point above I just made makes you look like a hypocrite.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Monspiet's comment is still only suggesting that light can counter-act against the darkness, not act as a superior elemental magic against it.
Because Diane is a Giantess who has barely any experience or knowledge about the Goddesses and Demons? Especially when it comes to how their own magics work + demon biology. At least Merlin has this knowledge even if she makes mistakes.

So instead of trying to dismiss Elizabeth with a ''it's all the ark's credit not her'' start talking about the properties of HER specific ark.

You're saying light can be overcome with ''extra amount of effort'' yet there have been examples where the power of darkness or demons have resisted the PoL without much effort.

It's not just ''art style'' - you think Nakaba would put in that detail for nothing? He's clearly hyping her character up.

Monspiet's statement isn't conclusively saying PoL > PoD but rather that PoL has the ability to cancel the PoD.



It doesn't matter that he allowed it to happen. Like I said, Meliodas standing there and half-expecting it coming his way doesn't suddenly reduce his durability or defences. With the Arthur scenario, he allowed the young King to purposefully come after him and slice with the holy sword Excalibur, but there wasn't a single scratch on him. Now you switch to the exact same scenario with Elizabeth, he allows her to slap him and she is able to move and BRUISE him, unlike Arthur who only fulfilled the first effect.

Once again it is irrelevant that he was willing to let her slap him because his defences don't magically reduce. The moment showed that Elizabeth was able to move and minimally damage him. So the whole ''well he let her'' do it situation means diddly squat here - especially when you can argue that Meliodas still had a portion of his defense up innately through his Assault Mode, which provides darkness as a form of protection.







I remember you specifically saying that Elizabeth getting KO'ED by Derriere established her as physically weak and didn't discredit it. In fact, you used the moment to argue against my argument of Elizabeth being a powerful Goddess.

Now in the same exact situation you're taking the other side of the coin by trying to actually defend Meliodas and say that Elizabeth slapping him isn't a feat or something to credit - yet it's the same exact moment, just roles reversed.

It feels like you're attempting to grasp at any straws there are in order to not credit her character - the point above I just made makes you look like a hypocrite.

No with the KO I’m pointing out an inconsistency in an argument that isn’t my own. My views are still the same Elizabeth is physically weak because even though she was off her guard, she still got KOed while the other AA were able to fight. You guys were more or less saying Mel being off his guard had little to no change and that the damage he’s taken from being off his guard isn’t a factor. I’m still saying it is a factor. The only way it’d be inconsistent of me is if you forgot that I was comparing her to the 4AA. If the 4AA weren’t there then I’d cut her some slack, but they were so I actually have a comparison to draw upon.

And again back to the acid example. If acid eats through human flesh, it counteracts the cells and is more potent. No one would ever say the human body cancles the PH of acid.

Also, we cant assume that Diane is wrong just because we don’t trust her. We need something that proves that she is wrong. Keep in mind she traveled back in time to the holy war and learned several things. It’d be weird to assume she’s learned nothing about goddesses.

Also being on your defense does raise your guard. I’ve always said this about Taizai and even as a basic factor characters that aren’t on their guard tend to take more damage. Gowther pointed out that power levels rise in fighting situations, so of course a person would have more power if they were on their guard and ready. Also Elizabeth hit Mel in the area that the darkness wasn’t covering.

 

[Gut's is the man]

There is where we discuss what Elizabeth rank in the GC is. Does her mother see her as a future heir, lesser child tool to be used to serve the interest of the GC?

If Elizabeth is the heir is the build up and forshadowing enough for it to be believable or is it all half-assed.

 

[Aldan]

Let me start things off:
I don't think SD gives a flying f*ck about Elizabeth personally. She is valued only for what contributions she makes to the Holy war and if she uses her gifts to fight for her, the SD would forgive her and take her back. Elizabeth undoubtedly has a myriad of goddess powers which she excels in even beyond the AA, but the SD simply doesnt care about these abilities because she won't use them for her. Why put your child, however talented, in charge of your military if theyre just going to spout hippie peace bs?

Elizabeth is the heir imho. Simply because she is the only child as far as we know. But the need for an heir seems rather inconsequential since to all appearances the gods are immortal. The DK only wants Mel back because he's proud of him, not because he's dying and needs an heir. The SD otoh is sickened by Elizabeth's lack of antipathy for the demons and thus exiled her.

She currently has no rank in the goddess clan. Sariel and Tarmiel care for her and respect her abilities so they support her and call her "lady." However, Ludociel uses the term mockingly and the SD has cast her out until she eventually helps her win the war.

 

[ShadowHeart]

Elizabeth being the only child of the SG would be boring. She'll be only the "heir" to the throne because Elizabeth the sole child of her mother. Look at the dynamic between the 3 Demon princes much more interesting than would be. And Meliodas being heir to his father despite 2 brothers is more impressive than him being heir because he a only child.

 

[Gut's is the man]

Elizabeth being the only child of the SG would be boring. She'll be only the "heir" to the throne because Elizabeth the sole child of her mother. Look at the dynamic between the 3 Demon princes much more interesting than would be. And Meliodas being heir to his father despite 2 brothers is more impressive than him being heir because he a only child.

Thank you.