Discussion Elizabeth

[kkck]

Love has been the single motivator for the entirety of the plot since the beginning of the manga. Mel's and liz' love, king's and diane's, ban's... Escanor even joining the sins likely has something to do with him falling in love with merlin. Heck, meliodas and liz started the great holy war because of their love. And I bet a buck that the demon king and supreme goddess wanting to bone is one of the reasons for the animosity between demon and goddess clan.

 

[Seven777]

Was your statement. Sorry if I may have confused, as I coined the word “love” into “relationship.” It was a foundation for a very large part of story events and actions and well more pointedly relevant and significant than what I took your statement to mean.

Tbh i didnt even really mean simply "love", i was more talking about their "epic 3000 year love" that was introduced around that time.

Motives for reading a story huh. Yeah that very much serves to influence your opinions and interest in a story yes? Like how this is combat heavy and those characters that don’t conform are frowned upon. Why does your question seem to imply that if my reason for reading the story is different than yours, it would be pitiful? What if I was looking for a good action with romance? What if I was looking for a story I thought had an interesting plot? What if I was curious about the plot? What if I just happened to stumble upon it out of boredom? Why do you think I should be interested enough to keep reading?

Not pitiful, simply surprising. I was expressing my disbelief in you deciding to pick up the series because you thought "i want to stick around because i think this would be a good love story" after reading the first chapter.

Out of curiosity what’s with the general consensus that romance sucks?

Nothing wrong with romance, but for me personally there are a lot of flaws in Mel's and Elizabeth's. For one, its killed more people in the manga than anything other than the gods. For another, AM Mel falling in love with Elizabeth doesnt really make sense. There is also Mel not simply choosing to stay out of Elizabeth's life even after ascertaining her identity to spare himself the pain and Elizabeth the early death, etc.

All that aside, their relationship doesnt really interest me, i'd be perfectly happy if the manga just focused on the war between the demons and the other clans. Nothing really draws me in about Mel and El's relationship, sure the premise isnt bad, death cycle and all that, but the actual relationship between the two just isnt that interesting, when they're together its either Mel does something heroic and Elizabeth is admires him, or Mel just gropes her. Now thats not to say their relationship is bad, its just not particularly interesting, to me at least. Now if their relationship was a product of brainwashing, that would not only make the premise even more interesting, but it would also clear up most of the flaws i feel is in their relationship, it may also give some much needed reflection on exactly what their relationship is all about, so im all for it.

 

[T25]

Tbh i didnt even really mean simply "love", i was more talking about their "epic 3000 year love" that was introduced around that time.
Not pitiful, simply surprising. I was expressing my disbelief in you deciding to pick up the series because you thought "i want to stick around because i think this would be a good love story" after reading the first chapter.
Nothing wrong with romance, but for me personally there are a lot of flaws in Mel's and Elizabeth's. For one, its killed more people in the manga than anything other than the gods. For another, AM Mel falling in love with Elizabeth doesnt really make sense. There is also Mel not simply choosing to stay out of Elizabeth's life even after ascertaining her identity to spare himself the pain and Elizabeth the early death, etc.

All that aside, their relationship doesnt really interest me, i'd be perfectly happy if the manga just focused on the war between the demons and the other clans. Nothing really draws me in about Mel and El's relationship, sure the premise isnt bad, death cycle and all that, but the actual relationship between the two just isnt that interesting, when they're together its either Mel does something heroic and Elizabeth is admires him, or Mel just gropes her. Now thats not to say their relationship is bad, its just not particularly interesting, to me at least. Now if their relationship was a product of brainwashing, that would not only make the premise even more interesting, but it would also clear up most of the flaws i feel is in their relationship, it may also give some much needed reflection on exactly what their relationship is all about, so im all for it.

Their relation was there in the first chapter. The details to it came in due time and continue to do so. It’s the detail that was revealed later. Simple as that.

Never said I continued so I can read a good romance story.

I believe your first flaw is a flaw in and of itself. To perpetuate that a man and woman who simply loved one another is more at fault for the deaths of people than the people who actually committed the act is somewhat deluded. The conflict between the two was there well before the two even met. The difference was merely a title: war. Mels defection was taken advantage of.

Your second point completely disregards any notion that a man can change. You described “AM Mel” a certain way earlier I believe (or was it yesterday?) It seemed as if you viewed him as a psychopath above reasoning with, which I believe is contrary to actual, although sparse, depiction of him. Mel told ban that he believed at that time that the conflict between the two clans was pointless. Stark contrast to the likes of ludo ideology. He wasn’t a complete fanatic to his ways.

As for the third....I don’t quite understand how that is an issue of concern for you. Or what exactly you mean by that. It would seem that quite a lot of people here think that Mel did what he did simply and singularly so he can be with her instead of also because he wished to find another way to stop the war with her that didn’t necessitate genocide.

Fair enough. However I don’t agree with your reasonings regarding brainwashing as I had stated regarding those flaws you spoke of. Clearing flaws.....with an overarching flaw huh. There is the fact that we don’t know much of the dynamic between them in the past. It certainly wasn’t exactly the same. All in all brainwashing does not appeal to me, garners my interest nor seems in tune

 

[Gallon]

The plots focus has only been on their love since around chapter 200, its not like the whole series hinges on it.

It's always been that. The rest was merely build up.

Even if the brainwashing turned into real love just like the legend of tristan?

Yes.

 

[Gut's is the man]

It's always been that. The rest was merely build up.


Yes.

I can't see how that would ruin the series?

 

[Gallon]

I can't see how that would ruin the series?

Because the story would be built on fabricated love. The plot majorly revolves around a forbidden love which resulted in a 3,000 year old torture - remove said "love" from the equation and the story becomes meaningless.

 

[Gut's is the man]

Because the story would be built on fabricated love. The plot majorly revolves around a forbidden love which resulted in a 3,000 year old torture - remove said "love" from the equation and the story becomes meaningless.

It would also build up the evil of the gods and adds some real tragedy to the story. Nothing is ruined.

 

[Gallon]

It would also build up the evil of the gods and adds some real tragedy to the story. Nothing is ruined.

No, it adds to the (nonexistent) evil of Elizabeth and it ruins the story.
This whole deal was terrible for both gods. They obviously had nothing to do with it.

 

[Gut's is the man]

No, it adds to the (nonexistent) evil of Elizabeth and it ruins the story.
This whole deal was terrible for both gods. They obviously had nothing to do with it.

Who says it was Elizabeth?

 

[Gallon]

Who says it was Elizabeth?

That's the only "theory" I've seen. But regardless, nobody has done such thing.

 

[Gut's is the man]

That's the only "theory" I've seen. But regardless, nobody has done such thing.

The supreme deity.

 

[Gallon]

The supreme deity.

Nope, she heavily opposed their love. If she could influence Meliodas mentally, she could as well have killed him in order to shift the balance. It doesn't add up, and it makes no sense story-wise.

 

[Gut's is the man]

Nope, she heavily opposed their love. If she could influence Meliodas mentally, she could as well have killed him in order to shift the balance. It doesn't add up, and it makes no sense story-wise.

She opposed it publically, privately she ochristrated it to suit her n interest and make use of her naive useless pacifistic daughter.

 

[Shutensatsu]

She opposed it publically, privately she ochristrated it to suit her n interest and make use of her naive useless pacifistic daughter.

Are you saying she wanted Eli to produce an heir that wasn’t fodder or something?

So she got her to sleep with Meliodas, whose the strongest?

 

[revo]

Are you saying she wanted Eli to produce an heir that wasn’t fodder or something?

So she got her to sleep with Meliodas, whose the strongest?

With that logic, the SD would've made Elizabeth go with Mael, the strongest in the race she rules.
At this point this theory overanalyzes everything too much. Also it completely reduces Elizabeth's character.

 

[Gut's is the man]

Are you saying she wanted Eli to produce an heir that wasn’t fodder or something?

So she got her to sleep with Meliodas, whose the strongest?

she didn't care for an heir and was dissapointed in Liz who she deemed too soft. But the SD saw a opportunity to gain a advantage over the demons and so orchestrated their relationship. As well through the milliana binded Mel to her cause to the point that he was her pawn more then anything else. Her tool.

 

[Shutensatsu]

With that logic, the SD would've made Elizabeth go with Mael, the strongest in the race she rules.
At this point this theory overanalyzes everything too much. Also it completely reduces Elizabeth's character.

The theory was created that the SD used Elizabeth by fans, because Nakaba has given her no purpose in her clan. She does not seem to serve the SD in any seeable capacity, or really do anything at all.

I know you all in the Eli squad hate it but Nakaba gave people ranks, fancy titles and job descriptions for a reason.

She dislikes fighting and stays off the battlefield most of the time.

She’s not the leader of the goddess clan in place of her mom on the battlefield.

She’s not the hope of the clan.

She’s not the almighty invincible heir to the goddess clan.

She’s not Mael and Ludo’s master, the strongest two goddesses.

She’s not the goddess queen’s personal executioner/representative.

She’s not the goddess queen’s personal trusted assistant she thought about giving half her power to before splitting it among the 4 AA.

She’s not an AA herself.

She’s not the leader of the 4 AA’s.

She seemingly does absolutely nothing.

She’s just Lady Elizabeth, the SD’s daughter, and that one goddess who seduced the legendary Meliodas.

That’s her title.

Seeing as that’s not actually serving the SD in any way, people came up with the idea that the SD must have unknowingly used her without her knowing, cause it’s the only thing she can get out of her because she does nothing else.

You say that “degrades” her character, but either the SD used her for something, or she does absolutely nothing at all.

Which is it?

 

[revo]

The theory was created that the SD used Elizabeth by fans, because Nakaba has given her no purpose in her clan. She does not seem to serve the SD in any seeable capacity, or really do anything at all.

I know you all in the Eli squad hate it but Nakaba gave people ranks, fancy titles and job descriptions for a reason.

She dislikes fighting and stays off the battlefield most of the time.

She’s not the leader of the goddess clan in place of her mom on the battlefield.

She’s not the hope of the clan.

She’s not the almighty invincible heir to the goddess clan.

She’s not Mael and Ludo’s master, the strongest two goddesses.

She’s not the goddess queen’s personal executioner/representative.

She’s not the goddess queen’s personal trusted assistant she thought about giving half her power to before splitting it among the 4 AA.

She’s not an AA herself.

She’s not the leader of the 4 AA’s.

She seemingly does absolutely nothing.

She’s just Lady Elizabeth, the SD’s daughter, and that one goddess who seduced the legendary Meliodas.

That’s her title.

Seeing as that’s not actually serving the SD in any way, people came up with the idea that the SD must have unknowingly used her without her knowing, cause it’s the only thing she can get out of her because she does nothing else.

You say that “degrades” her character, but either the SD used her for something, or she does absolutely nothing at all.

Which is it?

I never meant her being a heir or a powerful being. I'm on the side that Elizabeth isn't a fighter at all, that she's far from being strong and that she doesn't have any hidden power. I have never give her any wank. You're giving me the wrong debate.
With "reduces her character" i meant that she's only the girl that was useful to be on Meliodas bed. Nothing more.

 

[Gut's is the man]

The theory was created that the SD used Elizabeth by fans, because Nakaba has given her no purpose in her clan. She does not seem to serve the SD in any seeable capacity, or really do anything at all.

I know you all in the Eli squad hate it but Nakaba gave people ranks, fancy titles and job descriptions for a reason.

She dislikes fighting and stays off the battlefield most of the time.

She’s not the leader of the goddess clan in place of her mom on the battlefield.

She’s not the hope of the clan.

She’s not the almighty invincible heir to the goddess clan.

She’s not Mael and Ludo’s master, the strongest two goddesses.

She’s not the goddess queen’s personal executioner/representative.

She’s not the goddess queen’s personal trusted assistant she thought about giving half her power to before splitting it among the 4 AA.

She’s not an AA herself.

She’s not the leader of the 4 AA’s.

She seemingly does absolutely nothing.

She’s just Lady Elizabeth, the SD’s daughter, and that one goddess who seduced the legendary Meliodas.

That’s her title.

Seeing as that’s not actually serving the SD in any way, people came up with the idea that the SD must have unknowingly used her without her knowing, cause it’s the only thing she can get out of her because she does nothing else.

You say that “degrades” her character, but either the SD used her for something, or she does absolutely nothing at all.

Which is it?

Nailed it right on the head! Good job.

 

[Shutensatsu]

I never meant her being a heir or a powerful being. I'm on the side that Elizabeth isn't a fighter at all, that she's far from being strong and that she doesn't have any hidden power. I have never give her any wank. You're giving me the wrong debate.
With "reduces her character" i meant that she's only the girl that was useful to be on Meliodas bed. Nothing more.

I’m not talking about her power level.

I’m explaining to you why some people say the SD must have used Elizabeth to brainwash Mel.

It’s because she’s seemingly not good for anything else at all(explained above already).

One of those theories is to have a proper heir.

People often sight this page as their reason why they believe they have a hidden kid somewhere:

Spoiler

People think she was pregnant, and carrying the taizai Tristan equivalent. We will eventually come back to what they were embarrassed to talk about(I assume).

As for her being the only one fit for Meliodas’s bed, leading to the degradation of her character......

Even though she isn’t strong herself she still has SD genes. I’m sure she would still produce the strongest kid of her clan, and the stronger the person she has the kid with the stronger the kid/heir the SD can have.

I seriously don’t think that theory has anymore thought put into it than that.

Do you disagree that would be the case? Elizabeth would produce the strongest kid in the clan?