Conditional Erza vs DiMaria

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

DF Wendy being "not too far from Erza" = not a fact. Literally.

I see that you like to use Tartaros Character Cards. Okay, I'll use it too then. Your calculations are not reliable though because you factored in HP. It is only required when you play a card game in order to determine how to beat your opponent through reducing your opponent's health. There is no HP as it is replaced by Stamina/Endurance in the manga/anime which is not stated because it is literally immeasurable. This is not Pokémon or something where we say a character has a certain amount of Health Points.

Anyways, it depends how much you think too far is. The cards show that Erza is like 2.5x stronger than Wendy in Tartaros Arc. I agree that is not something to laugh at. However we're talking about Alvarez Arc.

In the Avatar Arc, Wendy closed the gap just a little while Erza was Code Red and helping Gray infiltrate the guild. Wendy, on the other hand, was actually training/fighting. Since then, Wendy has become stronger.

Based on Erza's performance against Ajeel and the Neinhart knight, yes, Erza would no diff Bluenote. In fact, GMG Erza can probably beat Bluenote with Nakagami Starlight. Putting current Erza far enough above Alvarez Chelia that TO would not be enough to close the gap. If Chelia is nowhere near Erza's level, then Dimaria, who didn't significantly injure base Chelia can't be that strong.

Yeah, I admit that Erza's performance against Ajeel was impressive. Probably the most impressive so far besides God Serena's battle with the Gods of Ishgar and Jura. Did that compare to TO Chelia vs Dimaria? Not really. And who was that Neinhart knight? Oh, the one that was fodder? The one that Kagura slashed through in one hit, yet struggled against Dimaria? See the logic? GMG Erza can beat Bluenote with Nakagami Starlight? Sure, you can claim that but no proof to show it. I completely agree 100% that Chelia is no where near Erza's level. You're talking about Base Chelia, right? Third Origin Chelia is different.

No, you are comparing Dimaria to Tartaros Erza when you say that Erza couldn't handle Kyoka's curse and that Age Scratch would do the same. Prove that the power gap between Kyoka and Dimaria > Erza's improvement. You cannot assume that Dimaria > Erza to show that Dimaria > Erza.

I never compared Dimaria and Tartaros Erza. You're twisting my words here. I said Erza was struggling against Kyōka and so Age Scratch would affect her because the difference between Kyōka and Dimaria is greater than Erza's improvement. I will prove it. Before I do though, I'll ask you a question. Just how much do you think Erza improved compared to her Tartaros self?

You did this wrong. In Tenrou, GMG, and Tartaros the ranking would be (in Red and Blue):
Wendy >= Max (base Wendy isn't much of a fighter)
Chelia >= Wendy (almost equal as seen in GMG fight)
Natsu > Chelia (Natsu is quite a bit stronger than base Wendy)
Erza > Natsu (1.5 to 2 times difference as seen in Tartaros stats)
Erza >> Chelia (from the above two statements)

If you think that base/LFD Natsu is stronger than Erza in GMG or Tartaros, you are wrong. Tenrou Erza one-shots Tenrou Natsu and Tartaros Erza is about 1.5 to 2 times as strong as Tartaros Natsu. This has been demonstrated in many fights and is supported by the Tartaros stat cards.

Max isn't as weak as you think he is. He's not as strong as Natsu and he doesn't get a lot of panel time, but he's not tiers below Wendy. Hence, the gap between Erza and Chelia > the gap between Natsu and Max. And here you are using GMG feats you complained about above.

I'm talking about Alvarez Arc, not any other arcs but if you want to reference the other arcs, then I guess I can't back down. Also, I'm not talking about Base or anything. If Erza gets full power, then so does everyone else to be fair.

First, Wendy is not even close to equal to Max. You would have to put Wendy at a way higher level. She defeated Etherious Ezel. Something Max can't do. I don't see how you can think Max is even close to Wendy even though she is a support. Max is the strongest of the fodders like Warren, Reedus, etc. However, he still falls short of the Thunder Legion whom DF Wendy surpasses as they couldn't even scratch Base Tempesta. So is he tiers below Wendy? Yes.

Second, we saw Chelia is a little stronger than Wendy as she was on the offense while Wendy was playing defensively. The reason why they were tied in GMG was because time ran out. Chelia's God Slayer Secret Art would injure Wendy pretty badly had Wendy not dodged it. It is pretty obvious that Wendy was more tired out than Chelia as well.

Lastly, I agree Erza is stronger than LFD Natsu by about 1.5x to 2x. They're almost equal once Natsu goes Dragon Force. This is Tartaros Arc. Imagine now. The power gap has been closed if not surpassed by a lot.

So the end results? Erza doesn't beat TO Chelia.

But also, Chelia's maximum < current Erza. You admit that base Chelia is nowhere near Erza level. This means you have to provide conclusive evidence if you want to claim that TO Chelia > Erza.

I already told you. First, is the logic behind the description of Third Origin. Second, is the performance between Chelia vs Dimaria and Erza vs Ajeel. There is no denying here. Not only did I explain this, I said that I did not like how this played out. You have to understand when overpowered plot devices are used.

"Ajeel is the weakest Spriggan" was a baseless claim made by those (not me) who wanted to downplay Erza. Dimaria being considered the strongest Spriggan by some is due to her time stop ability, which is restricted. Dimaria's physical stats have never been enough to put her near the strongest Spriggan. Are you also saying that DF Natsu was incapable of killing Jellal in TOH and Zero in OS arc, and that Natsu couldn't kill current Bluenote? Zeref's statement implied that Ajeel wasn't dead because the Fairy Tail guild doesn't usually kill people. Even if they can.

Okay, so we can agree on Ajeel. However, Dimaria was not just strong the moment we knew of her Time Magic but also when she revealed her God Soul Form. I wonder why Spriggans are so special. Last time I checked, half of the Tartaros Demons were annihilated among many other enemies in the past. Anyways, to answer your question, DF Natsu could kill them but the difference is that he was still standing after he defeated them. Erza ran out of magic energy and fell down, meanwhile, Ajeel was not dead. Think back to GMG when Elfman vs Bacchus. Both fell but the winner is declared once one of them stands up. Natsu beat his enemies. Erza tied. So we know for a fact Natsu could have killed them as he had the chance. Erza couldn't.

 

[Firepower]

Dimaria wins it easy. Stops time and that's it. If there was no time magic Erza would beat Dimaria high diff.

 

[Brandish μ]

Yeah, I'm talking about DF Alvarez Wendy. However, I disagree that she is on GMG DF Sting's level. GMG DF Sting is on the same level as half of GMG Base Natsu. To think a person of that level would beat Dimaria is like asking for a one-shot chapter. GMG Base Natsu is also way too far behind and underrating Wendy a lot. LFD Natsu can take on Etherious Tempesta. That means Base Natsu should be able to defeat Etherious Ezel. We already saw DF Wendy defeat Etherious Ezel and this was before the timeskip.

There isn't a feat worthy of giving Wendy an upgrade to me, she got trounced by God Soul. I felt her Tartaros DF could rival her current one. Base Natsu (GMG) can beat Ezel, that guy was one of the weaker demons. Wendy also had to take in MP.

Yeah, when I was talking about Kyōka taking away her senses, I was referring to the first confrontation, not the battle. Even so, as I mentioned earlier, pure pain won't be used to kill Erza but make her susceptible enough for a following attack. Just like what happened to Wendy.

You're assuming Erza and Wendy have equal pain tolerance. I don't think they do, which is why I believe Erza's mental toughness pulls thru. It probably doesn't matter anyway coz Age Scratch doesn't last long, it's just a quick shock.

Well, it was technically 7 years of training relative to all guilds in Fiore. It was 3 months of rushing to train for the Tenrou Team and that is just to catch up provided they trained all day. I mean you can even decrease it to 5 days if you want... It just means less time for other stuff like sleeping, eating, etc.

Well it's technically 3 months relative to FT members. We do at least know that in those 3 months Gajeel and co trained for the GMG. Who knows what all the other guilds did with their 7 years.

I don't know how we can say who is close to their prime and who is not. Honestly, if they are close to their prime, Laxus and Erza will be fodders against Acnologia just like God Serena. Unless they have improvement, I don't even know how FT stands a chance against him. Chelia at her prime and being stronger than Erza actually makes sense. And yes, TO has a harsh consequence which was used to prevent Chelia from being overpowered for the rest of the arc.

It's just my opinion based on Laxus' current level (he's already Spriggan level, I can't expect him to go much higher) and also my belief that we are near the end of the series. I think there will only be dragon force users who can stand against Acnologia.

Well the fact, is Chelia was able to fight hand-to-hand combat on the same level of Dimaria. Also considering that Dimaria matched Kagura in CQC, TO Chelia can be compared to both of them. On the other hand, I think Ajeel is not quite there. He even got slashed by Erza for not being quick enough to dodge. Ajeel solely relies on intangibility.

Well yes, but it comes down to the CQC of DiMaria. The actual CQC battle they had didn't suggest that they were great at it.

DiMaria attempted a sneak attack which Kagura blocked. There wasn't even a fight there, so no matching can be made.

Ajeel got hit due to Bakel's interference, and his own stupidity (Ajeel believes no sword can hurt him). When Ajeel took on Erza for the first time he dodged everything. He's not a CQC powerhouse like Wahl or Serena, but he has DiMaria covered.

I guess we just disagree here then. To me, I see Dimaria and Ajeel very similar in performance, without Dimaria's time magic of course. With time magic, Dimaria is OP and can just kill Ajeel. That means that Erza who can't win against someone like Ajeel, probably won't defeat Dimaria.

Okay then. It's just interpretations. I just can't get past the fact that DiMaria's attacks were weak compared to the other Spriggans, particularly that full-powered attack which was abysmal. Age Seal in my view is the best magic shown by a Spriggan so far.

 

[Deus]

A What evidence do you have to say Dimaria's nuke was stronger then Minerva's nuke? You also have no evidence to support that Third Origin CHelia is as powerful as Erza whatsoever. Also where did you get that Chelia speed was superior to Erza speed? You need to read the battle again in which the reason DF Wendy couldn't doge the laser was due to age scratch not because Wendy wasn't fast enough.

Age scratch would do the same thing Kyouka did to Erza in which case Erza was still able to fight.

You argument isn't really based on anything good. For Chelia to be Equal to or Superior to Erza base Chelia would have to have been as strong if not superior to Pre SO Erza. Are you suggesting that Chelia could have took down 100 monsters and defeated Kagura? Are you suggesting Chelia could beat Ikagura or Azuma?

What evidence do I have that Dimaria's nuke is stronger than Minerva's? Mashima saying the Spriggan 12 are strongest villains he's created? Or the fact that they are actually working under Zeref instead of trying to achieve a random hypothesis to see if Zeref comes out. Also would you say Ezel is stronger than Minerva? Then there's your answer. Comparing a Spriggan to someone who Erza beat in GMG isn't really good.

You have no evidence to support that Erza is as strong as Chelia whatsoever either. Both of the sky sisters should be faster than Erza considering their main aspect is speed. My evidence that TO Chelia is stronger than Erza was already given to you. Blackbeard killed an old Whitebeard. But if it was prime Whitebeard that Blackbeard could not have killed Whitebeard. This is the situation comparing TO Chelia and Erza.

WHERE are you getting your source that Chelia needs to be stronger than Erza pre-SO, so that after she uses TO, she can be stronger than post-SO...???

That's so irrelevant. That's like saying Max (the one that kept up with pre-SO LFD Natsu) is stronger than Erza. No.

 

[iDooom]

I see that you like to use Tartaros Character Cards. Okay, I'll use it too then. Your calculations are not reliable though because you factored in HP. It is only required when you play a card game in order to determine how to beat your opponent through reducing your opponent's health. There is no HP as it is replaced by Stamina/Endurance in the manga/anime which is not stated because it is literally immeasurable. This is not Pokémon or something where we say a character has a certain amount of Health Points.

HP is a representation of how much damage a character can take. Of course it is relevant.

Anyways, it depends how much you think too far is. The cards show that Erza is like 2.5x stronger than Wendy in Tartaros Arc. I agree that is not something to laugh at. However we're talking about Alvarez Arc.

In the Avatar Arc, Wendy closed the gap just a little while Erza was Code Red and helping Gray infiltrate the guild. Wendy, on the other hand, was actually training/fighting. Since then, Wendy has become stronger.

Prove that Erza didn't improve as much as or even more than Wendy. Alvarez base Wendy still struggled against Bluenote.

This whole character X did Y over the timeskip so they didn't improve as much is just incredibly subjective guessing. Lucy was a reporter/model over the timeskip and look at all her new abilities. Gray infiltrated Avatar. It's not even like Wendy trained nonstop when she was part of Lamia Scale.

Yeah, I admit that Erza's performance against Ajeel was impressive. Probably the most impressive so far besides God Serena's battle with the Gods of Ishgar and Jura. Did that compare to TO Chelia vs Dimaria? Not really. And who was that Neinhart knight? Oh, the one that was fodder? The one that Kagura slashed through in one hit, yet struggled against Dimaria? See the logic? GMG Erza can beat Bluenote with Nakagami Starlight? Sure, you can claim that but no proof to show it. I completely agree 100% that Chelia is no where near Erza's level. You're talking about Base Chelia, right? Third Origin Chelia is different.

The Neinhart knight is a direct underling of Neinhart, and so should be a similar level to Bakel, who Natsu "struggled" with. If you replace the Neinhart knight with Bluenote, that would be pretty much what happened. Also, Erza's casual sword slashes damaged Ajeel where Natsu's attacks did not, and Natsu one-shot Bluenote. So yes, current Erza no diffs Bluenote. Bluenote isn't much stronger than GMG Minerva, so he would have lost to GMG Erza.

I never compared Dimaria and Tartaros Erza. You're twisting my words here. I said Erza was struggling against Kyōka and so Age Scratch would affect her because the difference between Kyōka and Dimaria is greater than Erza's improvement. I will prove it. Before I do though, I'll ask you a question. Just how much do you think Erza improved compared to her Tartaros self?

Prove that the difference between Kyoka (Tartaros Erza level) and Dimaria is greater than Erza's improvement. You are basically assuming that Dimaria (without age seal) > current Erza simply because Dimaria is a Spriggan. So you are assuming that current Erza < every Spriggan (even the weakest).

I'm talking about Alvarez Arc, not any other arcs but if you want to reference the other arcs, then I guess I can't back down. Also, I'm not talking about Base or anything. If Erza gets full power, then so does everyone else to be fair.

First, Wendy is not even close to equal to Max. You would have to put Wendy at a way higher level. She defeated Etherious Ezel. Something Max can't do. I don't see how you can think Max is even close to Wendy even though she is a support. Max is the strongest of the fodders like Warren, Reedus, etc. However, he still falls short of the Thunder Legion whom DF Wendy surpasses as they couldn't even scratch Base Tempesta. So is he tiers below Wendy? Yes.

You were comparing Natsu to Max to show SO boost = 7 years. However, this only works when you compare Tenrou arc Natsu to Max or GMG Natsu to Max because that is when they fought and when Natsu got SO. Alvarez Max isn't anywhere close to Natsu nor would 7 years of training close the gap.

DF Wendy beat Ezel, and DF Wendy > Chelia, so that is irrelevant. You still have to prove base Wendy or Chelia >> Max. If you use DF Wendy, then your statement that Wendy < Chelia is obviously false and you can't argue that gap between Natsu and Max > gap between Erza and Chelia.

Second, we saw Chelia is a little stronger than Wendy as she was on the offense while Wendy was playing defensively. The reason why they were tied in GMG was because time ran out. Chelia's God Slayer Secret Art would injure Wendy pretty badly had Wendy not dodged it. It is pretty obvious that Wendy was more tired out than Chelia as well.

So, that is why I said Chelia >= Wendy.

Lastly, I agree Erza is stronger than LFD Natsu by about 1.5x to 2x. They're almost equal once Natsu goes Dragon Force. This is Tartaros Arc. Imagine now. The power gap has been closed if not surpassed by a lot.

Prove that the power gap has shrunk (not that it matters since we are talking about Tenrou/GMG Natsu).

So the end results? Erza doesn't beat TO Chelia.

This doesn't follow.

I already told you. First, is the logic behind the description of Third Origin. Second, is the performance between Chelia vs Dimaria and Erza vs Ajeel. There is no denying here. Not only did I explain this, I said that I did not like how this played out. You have to understand when overpowered plot devices are used.

The logic behind Third Origin is that Chelia becomes stronger. Nowhere does it say that Chelia becomes stronger than Erza. Once again, you'd have to assume that Dimaria (without age seal) > Ajeel to prove that TO Chelia > Erza. Lucy needed an "overpowered plot device" (Aquarius star dress) in Tartaros; does that make make her > LFD Natsu?

Okay, so we can agree on Ajeel. However, Dimaria was not just strong the moment we knew of her Time Magic but also when she revealed her God Soul Form. I wonder why Spriggans are so special. Last time I checked, half of the Tartaros Demons were annihilated among many other enemies in the past. Anyways, to answer your question, DF Natsu could kill them but the difference is that he was still standing after he defeated them. Erza ran out of magic energy and fell down, meanwhile, Ajeel was not dead. Think back to GMG when Elfman vs Bacchus. Both fell but the winner is declared once one of them stands up. Natsu beat his enemies. Erza tied. So we know for a fact Natsu could have killed them as he had the chance. Erza couldn't.

The Spriggans aren't "so special" in the sense that they won't be beaten, because we know that all of them will be "annihilated". God Soul looks especially weak compared to Ajeel's Sands of Death and Sand World, God Serena's DS spells, and Wahl's Assualt form and Etherion.

Natsu fell over after beating Jellal. Natsu fell over after beating Zancrow. Are you saying that he couldn't kill them?

What evidence do I have that Dimaria's nuke is stronger than Minerva's? Mashima saying the Spriggan 12 are strongest villains he's created? Or the fact that they are actually working under Zeref instead of trying to achieve a random hypothesis to see if Zeref comes out. Also would you say Ezel is stronger than Minerva? Then there's your answer. Comparing a Spriggan to someone who Erza beat in GMG isn't really good.

You have no evidence to support that Erza is as strong as Chelia whatsoever either. Both of the sky sisters should be faster than Erza considering their main aspect is speed. My evidence that TO Chelia is stronger than Erza was already given to you. Blackbeard killed an old Whitebeard. But if it was prime Whitebeard that Blackbeard could not have killed Whitebeard. This is the situation comparing TO Chelia and Erza.

Minerva > Ezel in Tartaros arc. As a Spriggan, Dimaria's attacks have been much weaker than those of any other Spriggan. So Erza should tank them easily.

No, Erza >>> Chelia in GMG, Tartaros, and Alvarez arcs. See above for evidence. Erza >>> Chelia in speed as well as every other stat. Your comparison is invalid because those characters are close in power originally. Erza vs Max is a better comparison. Can Erza beat prime Max? Yes.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

HP is a representation of how much damage a character can take. Of course it is relevant.

So how many Hit Points does Natsu, Gray, Erza, and Lucy have?

Prove that Erza didn't improve as much as or even more than Wendy. Alvarez base Wendy still struggled against Bluenote.

This whole character X did Y over the timeskip so they didn't improve as much is just incredibly subjective guessing. Lucy was a reporter/model over the timeskip and look at all her new abilities. Gray infiltrated Avatar. It's not even like Wendy trained nonstop when she was part of Lamia Scale.

First, we have to look at how much Lucy improved. I know she improved but how much since Tartaros? Gray was actually doing something. So it is reasonable to see that he improved. Okay, Wendy struggled against Bluenote. She was still training. Now what evidence does this prove of Erza?

The Neinhart knight is a direct underling of Neinhart, and so should be a similar level to Bakel, who Natsu "struggled" with. If you replace the Neinhart knight with Bluenote, that would be pretty much what happened. Also, Erza's casual sword slashes damaged Ajeel where Natsu's attacks did not, and Natsu one-shot Bluenote. So yes, current Erza no diffs Bluenote. Bluenote isn't much stronger than GMG Minerva, so he would have lost to GMG Erza.

Sure, that fodder is similar to Bakel. It just strengthens my point. Someone that Kagura, who is close to being equal to Erza, one-shotted, yet was overwhelmed by Dimaria. TO Chelia defeated Dimaria with a few attacks.

You can't compare Natsu and Erza here. Natsu one-shotted Bluenote with a very notable spell. At the same time, Natsu never went serious against Ajeel. It was Erza's fight and we saw her maximum potential. Therefore, it is only an assumption that Erza beats Bluenote with no difficulty.

Prove that the difference between Kyoka (Tartaros Erza level) and Dimaria is greater than Erza's improvement. You are basically assuming that Dimaria (without age seal) > current Erza simply because Dimaria is a Spriggan. So you are assuming that current Erza < every Spriggan (even the weakest).

I will prove it but in order to do so, I need to see what your mind think. If you answer my question about how much Erza improved, then I'll give you an explanation. This one is critical because one mistake and you will lose the argument.

You were comparing Natsu to Max to show SO boost = 7 years. However, this only works when you compare Tenrou arc Natsu to Max or GMG Natsu to Max because that is when they fought and when Natsu got SO. Alvarez Max isn't anywhere close to Natsu nor would 7 years of training close the gap.

When did I ever imply that SO Natsu was on the level or Alvarez Max? If anything, I am trying to tell you that Pre-SO Base Natsu was quite equal to Alvarez Max but Second Origin enlarged the gap. I don't get your point. Natsu's battle with Max happened in Chapter 259 and Team Natsu got SO in Chapter 264. Alvarez Max was on par with Base Natsu before Second Origin... So if Natsu was not stuck on Tenrou Island for 7 years, not only would he close the gap but would surpass him even in Base Form.

Spoiler

DF Wendy beat Ezel, and DF Wendy > Chelia, so that is irrelevant. You still have to prove base Wendy or Chelia >> Max. If you use DF Wendy, then your statement that Wendy < Chelia is obviously false and you can't argue that gap between Natsu and Max > gap between Erza and Chelia.


So, that is why I said Chelia >= Wendy.



Prove that the power gap has shrunk (not that it matters since we are talking about Tenrou/GMG Natsu).



This doesn't follow.

I concede here. You're right. I forgot about DF Wendy. I was thinking that since Chelia has the trump card of healing herself while Wendy can't like we saw in the GMG. I won't go back on my words though. I did say that we have to use all their maximum power. The words in Red and Blue is the Power Gap.

• Max < Wendy
• Wendy > Chelia
• Erza > Wendy
• Erza < Natsu

It seems less of a gap now but Max and Natsu still has a larger gap than Erza and Chelia. The words colored is where they appear the highest on the list.

When I said the power gap between Erza and Natsu lessened, I was talking about Tartaros. We saw Erza defeat Kyōka and Natsu match Etherious Tempesta. I admit that it is not definite that Natsu would have won as the fight was cut short but Natsu didn't show any signs of being the losing side. I could say they are even. With that, we can say that Erza is almost 2x as strong as Natsu. Now Natsu entering Dragon Force would definitely put Natsu close to Erza because he was matching Mard Geer temporarily. I mean it definitely is close here unless you claim that DF didn't change Natsu that much.

As for Max, I mean I think it is somewhat obvious that Base Wendy and Base Chelia is stronger than Max. Base Wendy is on the same level as Juvia and Base Chelia is on the same level of Lyon. I mean either of them can take down Max. Lyon and Juvia should be far passed him. Plus, Juvia was an Element 4 in Phantom Lord whom Max had trouble against the fodder ghosts.

The logic behind Third Origin is that Chelia becomes stronger. Nowhere does it say that Chelia becomes stronger than Erza. Once again, you'd have to assume that Dimaria (without age seal) > Ajeel to prove that TO Chelia > Erza. Lucy needed an "overpowered plot device" (Aquarius star dress) in Tartaros; does that make make her > LFD Natsu?

Okay, let me explain this one last time. You agree that Second Origin makes the user a lot stronger, right? Because it opens up a second hidden container of magic energy in a wizard. Would that make them the strongest that they'll ever be? Or have we seen improvement since SO? Therefore, with Third Origin which boosts a person to their maximum potential would be even stronger than that. Knowing this, how can we say Chelia is above Erza?

Well, for the sake of discussion, I'll use what you said because any ideas I come up with now will probably be rejected like my comments about how Erza fared in Tartaros and the difference in power until now. You claim that Natsu struggled with Bakel while supressing his energy. Bakel is on the same level as the Neinhart Knight, according to you. Neinhart Knight that was one-shotted by Erza and Kagura so they are around the same level. Kagura was on par with Dimaria, even when Dimaria didn't use Time Magic. She only used it to cut Kagura's clothes for fanservice. The clash they had showed Kagura sensing Dimaria's power, making her overwhelmed.

Spoiler

TO Chelia defeated Dimaria with Medium Difficulty or less, so how can Current Erza be on her level?

The Spriggans aren't "so special" in the sense that they won't be beaten, because we know that all of them will be "annihilated". God Soul looks especially weak compared to Ajeel's Sands of Death and Sand World, God Serena's DS spells, and Wahl's Assualt form and Etherion.

Natsu fell over after beating Jellal. Natsu fell over after beating Zancrow. Are you saying that he couldn't kill them?

Natsu saved Erza so he was only temporarily down for a while. He still saved Erza and was shown to get back up. Like I said, both Elfman and Bacchus fell but Elfman got back up showing he still had a little bit of energy to smash Bacchus' head if he really wanted to. The only difference here is that Natsu got back up after a longer amount of time. On the other hand, Jellal never showed up again until later. He even had to be resurrected by the Oración Seis. I don't think Natsu fell after defeating Zancrow though.

Spoiler

 

[iDooom]

So how many Hit Points does Natsu, Gray, Erza, and Lucy have?

About as many as their respective opponents that they were on par with.

First, we have to look at how much Lucy improved. I know she improved but how much since Tartaros? Gray was actually doing something. So it is reasonable to see that he improved. Okay, Wendy struggled against Bluenote. She was still training. Now what evidence does this prove of Erza?

Lucy has a ton of stardresses which she did not have in Tartaros, as well as higher MP. Gray was doing something...but Erza wasn't? You're the one who said that Wendy closed the gap with Erza. You have to provide the evidence.

Sure, that fodder is similar to Bakel. It just strengthens my point. Someone that Kagura, who is close to being equal to Erza, one-shotted, yet was overwhelmed by Dimaria. TO Chelia defeated Dimaria with a few attacks.

Kagura was not overwhelmed by Dimaria; Kagura just deflected Dimaria's sneak attack. And Kagura was never close to being equal to Erza, but about half as strong during GMG. Natsu had more trouble with Bakel than Bluenote, hence Erza and Kagura would have no trouble dealing with Bluenote.

You can't compare Natsu and Erza here. Natsu one-shotted Bluenote with a very notable spell. At the same time, Natsu never went serious against Ajeel. It was Erza's fight and we saw her maximum potential. Therefore, it is only an assumption that Erza beats Bluenote with no difficulty.

Natsu used a "very notable" unnamed spell against Bluenote. Natsu used a similarly large fire spell to scatter Ant Lion's Pit and punched Ajeel, which dealt no damage. You really think Natsu was less serious against Ajeel, who had enough MP to shake Natsu and who was stated to be on par with the number 1 wizard saint, than against Bluenote? Erza beating Bluenote with no difficulty is supported by multiple comparisons that I have made.

I will prove it but in order to do so, I need to see what your mind think. If you answer my question about how much Erza improved, then I'll give you an explanation. This one is critical because one mistake and you will lose the argument.

As I have stated before, evidenced by the fight with Ajeel, current Erza is Spriggan tier. Tartaros Erza was just under GMG Jura level. It's funny that you say that I'll lose the argument with one mistake when you've already made many mistakes.

When did I ever imply that SO Natsu was on the level or Alvarez Max? If anything, I am trying to tell you that Pre-SO Base Natsu was quite equal to Alvarez Max but Second Origin enlarged the gap. I don't get your point. Natsu's battle with Max happened in Chapter 259 and Team Natsu got SO in Chapter 264. Alvarez Max was on par with Base Natsu before Second Origin... So if Natsu was not stuck on Tenrou Island for 7 years, not only would he close the gap but would surpass him even in Base Form.

I don't get what you're trying to say. Why would you bring up Alvarez Max when he hasn't done anything? Tenrou Max < Tenrou Natsu, so if they both got 7 years of training Max < Natsu. Still doesn't say anything about TO Chelia vs Erza when Erza >>> base Chelia.

Are you trying to say that if Max got 7 more years of training he would be > Natsu?

I concede here. You're right. I forgot about DF Wendy. I was thinking that since Chelia has the trump card of healing herself while Wendy can't like we saw in the GMG. I won't go back on my words though. I did say that we have to use all their maximum power. The words in Red and Blue is the Power Gap.

• Max < Wendy
• Wendy > Chelia
• Erza > Wendy
• Erza < Natsu

It seems less of a gap now but Max and Natsu still has a larger gap than Erza and Chelia. The words colored is where they appear the highest on the list.

DF Wendy > Max and DF Wendy > Chelia doesn't prove anything about Max vs Chelia.

• DF Wendy > Chelia
• Max < DF Wendy
• Erza > DF Wendy
• Natsu ~ DF Wendy
• Erza > Natsu

When I said the power gap between Erza and Natsu lessened, I was talking about Tartaros. We saw Erza defeat Kyōka and Natsu match Etherious Tempesta. I admit that it is not definite that Natsu would have won as the fight was cut short but Natsu didn't show any signs of being the losing side. I could say they are even. With that, we can say that Erza is almost 2x as strong as Natsu. Now Natsu entering Dragon Force would definitely put Natsu close to Erza because he was matching Mard Geer temporarily. I mean it definitely is close here unless you claim that DF didn't change Natsu that much.

I still don't know what you're trying to say here. How DF Natsu relevant to this discussion?

As for Max, I mean I think it is somewhat obvious that Base Wendy and Base Chelia is stronger than Max. Base Wendy is on the same level as Juvia and Base Chelia is on the same level of Lyon. I mean either of them can take down Max. Lyon and Juvia should be far passed him. Plus, Juvia was an Element 4 in Phantom Lord whom Max had trouble against the fodder ghosts.

Wendy =/= Juvia and Chelia =/= Lyon. Just like how Natsu =/= Lucy even though they fight together.

Okay, let me explain this one last time. You agree that Second Origin makes the user a lot stronger, right? Because it opens up a second hidden container of magic energy in a wizard. Would that make them the strongest that they'll ever be? Or have we seen improvement since SO? Therefore, with Third Origin which boosts a person to their maximum potential would be even stronger than that. Knowing this, how can we say Chelia is above Erza?

No, we cannot say TO Chelia > Erza because base Chelia <<< Erza and SO Chelia << Erza. TO being larger than SO doesn't mean it'll be large enough.

Well, for the sake of discussion, I'll use what you said because any ideas I come up with now will probably be rejected like my comments about how Erza fared in Tartaros and the difference in power until now. You claim that Natsu struggled with Bakel while supressing his energy. Bakel is on the same level as the Neinhart Knight, according to you. Neinhart Knight that was one-shotted by Erza and Kagura so they are around the same level. Kagura was on par with Dimaria, even when Dimaria didn't use Time Magic. She only used it to cut Kagura's clothes for fanservice. The clash they had showed Kagura sensing Dimaria's power, making her overwhelmed.

Spoiler

TO Chelia defeated Dimaria with Medium Difficulty or less, so how can Current Erza be on her level?

First off, Erza > Kagura. Non-SO Erza ~ Kagura, so SO Erza would be equivalent to Kagura + 7 years of training (using your logic). Dimaria used age seal against Kagura, which is restricted. Dimaria's MP doesn't equal autowin when her physical stats aren't great and her best magic is restricted. Natsu was similarly overwhelmed by Brandish's and Ajeel's MP, so does this mean Natsu < Ajeel?

Natsu saved Erza so he was only temporarily down for a while. He still saved Erza and was shown to get back up. Like I said, both Elfman and Bacchus fell but Elfman got back up showing he still had a little bit of energy to smash Bacchus' head if he really wanted to. The only difference here is that Natsu got back up after a longer amount of time. On the other hand, Jellal never showed up again until later. He even had to be resurrected by the Oración Seis. I don't think Natsu fell after defeating Zancrow though.

Jellal was still alive and fused with the Etherion to redirect it into the sky. That is why he had to be resurrected.

Natsu fell immediately afterwards and had to be healed by Wendy. He was out of MP and very injured.

You're ignoring the part where Zeref said that not killing their opponents was Fairy Tail's biggest weakness.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

About as many as their respective opponents that they were on par with.

Hmm... Really now? Such a bold statement. LFD Natsu was on par with Etherious Tempesta and so you're saything that LFD Natsu would have less HP than Erza, Silver, Kyōka, Torafusa, ISD Gajeel, and iDeS Gray? Does it make sense now?

Lucy has a ton of stardresses which she did not have in Tartaros, as well as higher MP. Gray was doing something...but Erza wasn't? You're the one who said that Wendy closed the gap with Erza. You have to provide the evidence.

Just look at where Erza was compared to Wendy.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Not saying Erza didn't train... Just not as much as it is portrayed compared to the rest.

Kagura was not overwhelmed by Dimaria; Kagura just deflected Dimaria's sneak attack. And Kagura was never close to being equal to Erza, but about half as strong during GMG. Natsu had more trouble with Bakel than Bluenote, hence Erza and Kagura would have no trouble dealing with Bluenote.

Please... Not overwhelmed?

Kagura Blocking Dimaria's Attack

Spoiler

Next Panel: Kagura sensing Dimaria's True Power

Spoiler

Look at the bottom scenes... If you can't see the idea behind what Hiro Mashima was trying to portray here, you are in denial once again.

Stop bringing up other arcs. This is Alvarez Arc. GMG was a long time ago. Kagura is not half as strong as Erza anymore. Erza said they work well together so they must be similar in fighting style and power.

Natsu used a "very notable" unnamed spell against Bluenote. Natsu used a similarly large fire spell to scatter Ant Lion's Pit and punched Ajeel, which dealt no damage. You really think Natsu was less serious against Ajeel, who had enough MP to shake Natsu and who was stated to be on par with the number 1 wizard saint, than against Bluenote? Erza beating Bluenote with no difficulty is supported by multiple comparisons that I have made.

I honestly couldn't care less whether the spell was named or not. It has no impact on the power of it.

Spoiler

Yes, Natsu did not go all out on Ajeel. They were fleeing instead of fighting. Come on, did Natsu even go LFD or anything? How many attacks did Natsu use on Ajeel? Was he fighting to his death like Erza vs Ajeel? Natsu was not serious.

Meanwhile, we have Natsu being quite serious with Bluenote. Refer to previous panel too.

Spoiler

As I have stated before, evidenced by the fight with Ajeel, current Erza is Spriggan tier. Tartaros Erza was just under GMG Jura level. It's funny that you say that I'll lose the argument with one mistake when you've already made many mistakes.

Okay, I see that you have stopped using specific measurements of power. In that case, I won't need to state the difference between Erza's improvement compared to Tartaros Demons and the Spriggans. Otherwise, you would just go back on your words. Saying Spriggan Tier means nothing. You would have to specify which Spriggan otherwise I can say Erza is God Serena's level.

Mistakes are only noticable when admitted. Keep that in mind.

I don't get what you're trying to say. Why would you bring up Alvarez Max when he hasn't done anything? Tenrou Max < Tenrou Natsu, so if they both got 7 years of training Max < Natsu. Still doesn't say anything about TO Chelia vs Erza when Erza >>> base Chelia.

Are you trying to say that if Max got 7 more years of training he would be > Natsu?

Alvarez Max hasn't done anything because he can't do anything. There is a reason why he is at the guild hall with fodders besides Makarov, the Guild Master + Mavis. No...

• Post-Tenrou Max > Post-Tenrou Base Natsu

If Natsu never got stuck in Fairy Sphere and trained for 7 years, it would be...

• Post-Tenrou Max > Post Tenrou Base Natsu

Yes, I'm trying to say that if Max got 7 more years of training he would be greater than Natsu. It's already proven in the manga. At this point, I can't tell if you are too lazy to click on the panels even after I selected it out for you.

DF Wendy > Max and DF Wendy > Chelia doesn't prove anything about Max vs Chelia.

• DF Wendy > Chelia
• Max < DF Wendy
• Erza > DF Wendy
• Natsu ~ DF Wendy
• Erza > Natsu

I still don't know what you're trying to say here. How DF Natsu relevant to this discussion?

Base Wendy is already above Max, so Chelia is above him too. That makes your power anking incorrect. Honestly, I bet if this discussion never started and someone asked you if Max was stronger than Base Wendy, you would say no. At this point, I can't debate on such a obvious and well known fact so you can think however way you want. This is one of the most stubborn points made just so that you won't admit defeat.

Wendy =/= Juvia and Chelia =/= Lyon. Just like how Natsu =/= Lucy even though they fight together.

I'm not basing it off on whether they fight together... Lyon admits that Chelia is one of the most powerful mages in Lamia Scale. Base Chelia is similar to Base Wendy as seen in GMG. And Base Chelia fought against Juvia on equal terms. That is how I said they were equal. Gray stated that the reason why he and Juvida could win against Lyon and Chelia was because their teamwork was far better off than them.

First off, Erza > Kagura. Non-SO Erza ~ Kagura, so SO Erza would be equivalent to Kagura + 7 years of training (using your logic).Dimaria used age seal against Kagura, which is restricted. Dimaria's MP doesn't equal autowin when her physical stats aren't great and her best magic is restricted. Natsu was similarly overwhelmed by Brandish's and Ajeel's MP, so does this mean Natsu < Ajeel?

No, because we don't haven't seen Natsu vs Ajeel. Is Base Natsu weaker than Ajeel? Most likely but not proven until we've seen feats from him.

Jellal was still alive and fused with the Etherion to redirect it into the sky. That is why he had to be resurrected.

Natsu fell immediately afterwards and had to be healed by Wendy. He was out of MP and very injured.

You're ignoring the part where Zeref said that not killing their opponents was Fairy Tail's biggest weakness.

Natsu got up when Erza was fusing herself with the Etherion so that was before Jellal fused to redirect it to to the sky. Either way, Natsu still got up first.

Natsu also had the strength to stand when he defeated Zancrow in which he could have killed him off if he really wanted to. He passed out as he was walking through the forest.

Fairy Tail doesn't always kill their opponents but to say they don't is a lie. In this case with Erza vs Ajeel, Erza had no every left as Natsu caught her while she fell from the sky. She was in no shape to finish off Ajeel even if she wanted to.

 

[iDooom]

Hmm... Really now? Such a bold statement. LFD Natsu was on par with Etherious Tempesta and so you're saything that LFD Natsu would have less HP than Erza, Silver, Kyōka, Torafusa, ISD Gajeel, and iDeS Gray? Does it make sense now?

First off, I said that he would have about as much HP as the opponents he was on par with. Is there anything that contradicts LFD Natsu having about the same HP as EF Tempesta? Natsu certainly has less HP than Erza, Kyoka, and possibly Torafusa.

Just look at where Erza was compared to Wendy.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Not saying Erza didn't train... Just not as much as it is portrayed compared to the rest.

So, you show a panel of Wendy and Sherria fighting fodder as "proof" of them getting stronger... and a panel of Erza sitting down as "proof" of not getting stronger. Here, have some better panels of Wendy, Sherria and Erza as "proof".

http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/458/18, http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/420/14.

Please... Not overwhelmed?

Kagura Blocking Dimaria's Attack

Spoiler

Next Panel: Kagura sensing Dimaria's True Power

Spoiler

Look at the bottom scenes... If you can't see the idea behind what Hiro Mashima was trying to portray here, you are in denial once again.

Here are two panels of Natsu and Gray "being overwhelmed". What is Mashima trying to portray here?

http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/446/8, http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/442/19.

Stop bringing up other arcs. This is Alvarez Arc. GMG was a long time ago. Kagura is not half as strong as Erza anymore. Erza said they work well together so they must be similar in fighting style and power.

This is just grasping at straws. Long time ago = one year... "Erza said they work well together so they are equal." So what you are saying is that Natsu = Lucy in power, right? Because Natsu said they work well together and they go on missions together.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Kagura has closed the gap with Erza. So by default Erza > Kagura.

I honestly couldn't care less whether the spell was named or not. It has no impact on the power of it.

Spoiler

Yes, Natsu did not go all out on Ajeel. They were fleeing instead of fighting. Come on, did Natsu even go LFD or anything? How many attacks did Natsu use on Ajeel? Was he fighting to his death like Erza vs Ajeel? Natsu was not serious.

Meanwhile, we have Natsu being quite serious with Bluenote. Refer to previous panel too.

Natsu didn't go LFD and used only one attack against Bluenote, so by your standards he wasn't serious. When Natsu attacked Ajeel he was basically saying "screw fleeing" and "bring it on" to Alvarez. The fact is that Natsu's punch did not do any damage to Ajeel. Erza's attack injured Ajeel. Hence, Erza no diffs Bluenote like Natsu did. Further shown through the Neinhart knight.

Spoiler

Okay, I see that you have stopped using specific measurements of power. In that case, I won't need to state the difference between Erza's improvement compared to Tartaros Demons and the Spriggans. Otherwise, you would just go back on your words. Saying Spriggan Tier means nothing. You would have to specify which Spriggan otherwise I can say Erza is God Serena's level.

Mistakes are only noticable when admitted. Keep that in mind.

Spriggan as in Ajeel. So you're admitting that you've made mistakes and haven't admitted them?

Alvarez Max hasn't done anything because he can't do anything. There is a reason why he is at the guild hall with fodders besides Makarov, the Guild Master + Mavis. No...

• Post-Tenrou Max > Post-Tenrou Base Natsu

Yes, I'm trying to say that if Max got 7 more years of training he would be greater than Natsu. It's already proven in the manga. At this point, I can't tell if you are too lazy to click on the panels even after I selected it out for you.

I don't know what your point is here. Tenrou Max + 7 years ~ Tenrou Natsu, but the difference between Erza and Chelia > difference between Tenrou Natsu and Tenrou Max, as I've already shown. I don't know why you're bringing up Alvarez. Are you trying to say that Alvarez Max + 7 years ~ current Natsu? Because that's just false.

If Natsu never got stuck in Fairy Sphere and trained for 7 years, it would be...

• Post-Tenrou Max > Post Tenrou Base Natsu

What? If Natsu and Max both were training, then Natsu would have maintained the gap. I don't know what you're trying to say here.

Base Wendy is already above Max, so Chelia is above him too. That makes your power anking incorrect. Honestly, I bet if this discussion never started and someone asked you if Max was stronger than Base Wendy, you would say no. At this point, I can't debate on such a obvious and well known fact so you can think however way you want. This is one of the most stubborn points made just so that you won't admit defeat.

Prove that base Wendy > Max.

I'm not basing it off on whether they fight together... Lyon admits that Chelia is one of the most powerful mages in Lamia Scale. Base Chelia is similar to Base Wendy as seen in GMG. And Base Chelia fought against Juvia on equal terms. That is how I said they were equal. Gray stated that the reason why he and Juvida could win against Lyon and Chelia was because their teamwork was far better off than them.

Lyon says that Chelia is one of the most powerful Lamia Scale mages... How many powerful mages are in Lamia Scale? If Max were in a guild like Mermaid Heel or Lamia Scale he would be considered one of their strongest mages. Chelia was not really on par with Juvia because she could not damage Juvia through water body. Lyon was stronger than Gray, so they needed to use teamwork.

No, we cannot say TO Chelia > Erza because base Chelia <<< Erza and SO Chelia << Erza. TO being larger than SO doesn't mean it'll be large enough.

Lol, you didn't respond to this.

No, because we don't haven't seen Natsu vs Ajeel. Is Base Natsu weaker than Ajeel? Most likely but not proven until we've seen feats from him.

Based on your Kagura vs Dimaria logic, Natsu < Ajeel.

Natsu got up when Erza was fusing herself with the Etherion so that was before Jellal fused to redirect it to to the sky. Either way, Natsu still got up first.

Natsu also had the strength to stand when he defeated Zancrow in which he could have killed him off if he really wanted to. He passed out as he was walking through the forest.

Fairy Tail doesn't always kill their opponents but to say they don't is a lie. In this case with Erza vs Ajeel, Erza had no every left as Natsu caught her while she fell from the sky. She was in no shape to finish off Ajeel even if she wanted to.

So...why didn't Natsu finish Jellal?

Erza was in no shape to finish off Ajeel because Ajeel was flying through the sky tens of miles away. Erza had enough energy to finish Ajeel with Nakagami Starlight and collapsed afterwards, the same as Natsu in his Zancrow fight. She chose not to kill Ajeel when it would only take a bit more to do so.

 

[Brandish μ]

Natsu didn't go LFD and used only one attack against Bluenote, so by your standards he wasn't serious. When Natsu attacked Ajeel he was basically saying "screw fleeing" and "bring it on" to Alvarez. The fact is that Natsu's punch did not do any damage to Ajeel. Erza's attack injured Ajeel. Hence, Erza no diffs Bluenote like Natsu did. Further shown through the Neinhart knight.

Natsu said himself that he was restricting his effort against Bakel and co, because it is a war and they don't know how many people they have to face. This prolonged Bakel's existence. Even when Natsu punched him into the sky that wasn't a full powered FD Iron Fist - we only saw one of those when he attack Zeref's army. Bluenote however was on the receiving end of what looked like a full-powered roar. And what exactly did those knights of Neinhart do to suggest they are as strong as Bluenote?

I think Erza beats Bluenote around mid difficulty. Natsu won around low difficulty, he did have to use a powerful roar to get it done. That roar is not casual.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

First off, I said that he would have about as much HP as the opponents he was on par with. Is there anything that contradicts LFD Natsu having about the same HP as EF Tempesta? Natsu certainly has less HP than Erza, Kyoka, and possibly Torafusa.

Yes, there is something that contradicts that. It means Natsu has less HP than Erza, Silver, Kyōka, Torafusa, ISD Gajeel, iDeS Gray, and many more which is simply not true.

So, you show a panel of Wendy and Sherria fighting fodder as "proof" of them getting stronger... and a panel of Erza sitting down as "proof" of not getting stronger. Here, have some better panels of Wendy, Sherria and Erza as "proof".

http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/458/18, http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/420/14.

You fail to realize that the difference here is that Wendy's and Chelia's celebration took place over one day meanwhile the infiltration into Avatar was a long operation. Erza had to stay at the base to give orders and overlook the situation while Gray was actually inside.

Here are two panels of Natsu and Gray "being overwhelmed". What is Mashima trying to portray here?

http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/446/8, http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/442/19.

Hiro Mashima is trying to portray the fact that Natsu and Gray are overwhelmed by the Spriggans. When did I say that Natsu and Gray could solo a Spriggan? Erza's fight with Ajeel made sense because she didn't solo him. Same with God Serena vs the Gods of Ishgar + Jura. Also, you have to take into account that Kagura actually fought Dimaria and knew her power (feats) while Natsu and Gray just purely relied on senses (hype).

This is just grasping at straws. Long time ago = one year... "Erza said they work well together so they are equal." So what you are saying is that Natsu = Lucy in power, right? Because Natsu said they work well together and they go on missions together.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Kagura has closed the gap with Erza. So by default Erza > Kagura.

One year is a lot considering how everyone is noticeably stronger than they were in Tartaros. No, you have to read the context of the situation in which Erza was saying it. I didn't know it was this hard to understand how it was written. If it wasn't to say that they were comparable in power, tell me why Hiro Mashima included that panel with Erza saying something as "useless" as that. Unless you're telling me you just skimmed over this panel and got nothing from it when you read the chapter. Natsu and Lucy never said such a thing unless you can give me a page.

Natsu didn't go LFD and used only one attack against Bluenote, so by your standards he wasn't serious. When Natsu attacked Ajeel he was basically saying "screw fleeing" and "bring it on" to Alvarez. The fact is that Natsu's punch did not do any damage to Ajeel. Erza's attack injured Ajeel. Hence, Erza no diffs Bluenote like Natsu did. Further shown through the Neinhart knight.

Natsu still didn't go all out. If you thought that was Natsu's serious mode and best of his abilities, you can say that he'll be fodder against a Spriggan in a real battle.

Spriggan as in Ajeel. So you're admitting that you've made mistakes and haven't admitted them?

Then just say Ajeel. You don't need to be so obscure about it.

I don't know what your point is here. Tenrou Max + 7 years ~ Tenrou Natsu, but the difference between Erza and Chelia > difference between Tenrou Natsu and Tenrou Max, as I've already shown. I don't know why you're bringing up Alvarez. Are you trying to say that Alvarez Max + 7 years ~ current Natsu? Because that's just false.

No, I'm not saying that Current Natsu ~ Alvarez Max + 7 years. That wouldn't be accurate.

What? If Natsu and Max both were training, then Natsu would have maintained the gap. I don't know what you're trying to say here.

That is exactly what I was trying to say.

Prove that base Wendy > Max.

I already repeated myself about this topic but if you disagree, then I can't say anymore.

Lyon says that Chelia is one of the most powerful Lamia Scale mages... How many powerful mages are in Lamia Scale? If Max were in a guild like Mermaid Heel or Lamia Scale he would be considered one of their strongest mages. Chelia was not really on par with Juvia because she could not damage Juvia through water body. Lyon was stronger than Gray, so they needed to use teamwork.

No, Max is on the level of Sherry in Lamia Scale. Also, both sides were around equal. Gray being stronger than Lyon but Chelia being stronger than Wendy. Gray and Juvia only won because of teamwork.

Also, Wendy was on par with Juvia. They both have the same amount of marks and scratches. We already know Lyon won't hit Juvia so it has to be Chelia who did it. Plus, Lyon told Chelia not to leave lasting marks on Juvia so that means Juvia did get hit by her.

Lol, you didn't respond to this.

No, we cannot say TO Chelia > Erza because base Chelia <<< Erza and SO Chelia << Erza. TO being larger than SO doesn't mean it'll be large enough.

Even if SO Chelia is weaker than Erza, TO is nothing to underestimate. Yes, TO being larger than SO doesn't mean it'll be large enough except that it is because it was proven in the manga.

Based on your Kagura vs Dimaria logic, Natsu < Ajeel.

And what's wrong with that? LFD Natsu and DF Natsu are likely beyond Erza or Kagura at this point. So Base Natsu might lose against Ajeel.

So...why didn't Natsu finish Jellal?

Erza was in no shape to finish off Ajeel because Ajeel was flying through the sky tens of miles away. Erza had enough energy to finish Ajeel with Nakagami Starlight and collapsed afterwards, the same as Natsu in his Zancrow fight. She chose not to kill Ajeel when it would only take a bit more to do so.

Natsu was more focused on Erza than Jellal at the time. Exactly, Erza was indeed in no shape to chase after a flying alive Ajeel... Which is exactly my point. She didn't really beat Ajeel.

 

[iDooom]

Yes, there is something that contradicts that. It means Natsu has less HP than Erza, Silver, Kyōka, Torafusa, ISD Gajeel, iDeS Gray, and many more which is simply not true.

So, where is the contradiction? And I said that they have about as much hp as their opponents they were on par with. Natsu could have a bit more hp than Tempesta and Gajeel could have slightly less than Torafusa. DeS Gray was not on par with Silver, so that doesn't follow.

You fail to realize that the difference here is that Wendy's and Chelia's celebration took place over one day meanwhile the infiltration into Avatar was a long operation. Erza had to stay at the base to give orders and overlook the situation while Gray was actually inside.

This is just baseless speculation from you. Gray had time to improve while actually infiltrating Avatar for 6 months. Saying that Erza didn't improve because she was overseeing 24/7 is something ridiculous that you have to prove.

Hiro Mashima is trying to portray the fact that Natsu and Gray are overwhelmed by the Spriggans. When did I say that Natsu and Gray could solo a Spriggan? Erza's fight with Ajeel made sense because she didn't solo him. Same with God Serena vs the Gods of Ishgar + Jura. Also, you have to take into account that Kagura actually fought Dimaria and knew her power (feats) while Natsu and Gray just purely relied on senses (hype).

Kagura said that Dimaria's MP was overwhelming, not her combat skills. This doesn't mean that Dimaria can beat Kagura without her time magic. It's the exact situation of Natsu and Gray. Do you really think that Ajeel could beat Natsu and Gray without his sand powers?

One year is a lot considering how everyone is noticeably stronger than they were in Tartaros. No, you have to read the context of the situation in which Erza was saying it. I didn't know it was this hard to understand how it was written. If it wasn't to say that they were comparable in power, tell me why Hiro Mashima included that panel with Erza saying something as "useless" as that. Unless you're telling me you just skimmed over this panel and got nothing from it when you read the chapter. Natsu and Lucy never said such a thing unless you can give me a page.

So... everyone is stronger. Doesn't prove anything about the gap between Erza and Kagura. Nowhere did Erza imply that Kagura was equal in combat strength to her, nor does Kagura have any feats to suggest this.

Now you are just being lazy.

Natsu still didn't go all out. If you thought that was Natsu's serious mode and best of his abilities, you can say that he'll be fodder against a Spriggan in a real battle.

So what, Natsu didn't go all out against Bluenote. He most likely used comparable effort against Ajeel, which did nothing.

Then just say Ajeel. You don't need to be so obscure about it.

No, I'm not saying that Current Natsu ~ Alvarez Max + 7 years. That wouldn't be accurate.

That is exactly what I was trying to say.

So what, gap between Erza and Chelia >> gap between Tenrou Natsu and Max, which was closed by SO.

I already repeated myself about this topic but if you disagree, then I can't say anymore.

No, Max is on the level of Sherry in Lamia Scale. Also, both sides were around equal. Gray being stronger than Lyon but Chelia being stronger than Wendy. Gray and Juvia only won because of teamwork.

Lyon was obviously doing better than Gray in their fight...

Also, Wendy was on par with Juvia. They both have the same amount of marks and scratches. We already know Lyon won't hit Juvia so it has to be Chelia who did it. Plus, Lyon told Chelia not to leave lasting marks on Juvia so that means Juvia did get hit by her.

Even if SO Chelia is weaker than Erza, TO is nothing to underestimate. Yes, TO being larger than SO doesn't mean it'll be large enough except that it is because it was proven in the manga.

Except that the manga never came close to proving it. You have to prove TO Chelia > Erza.

And what's wrong with that? LFD Natsu and DF Natsu are likely beyond Erza or Kagura at this point. So Base Natsu might lose against Ajeel.

No, Natsu can go LFD at will and was still "overpowered" by Ajeel's aura. So based on your logic, LFD Natsu would lose as well. And nothing suggests that LFD Natsu > Erza at this point. MP doesn''t mean everything in a fight.

Natsu was more focused on Erza than Jellal at the time. Exactly, Erza was indeed in no shape to chase after a flying alive Ajeel... Which is exactly my point. She didn't really beat Ajeel.

Erza sent Ajeel flying into the distance and critically injured him. It's not that hard to understand that Erza didn't kill Ajeel because she didn't want to, the same way that Erza didn't kill Aria, Midnight, Jellal, Azuma, etc. Like anyone else, Erza can choose to hit vital points, like the head, or non-vital points. Saying Erza didn't beat Ajeel because he isn't dead is downright silly.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

So, where is the contradiction? And I said that they have about as much hp as their opponents they were on par with. Natsu could have a bit more hp than Tempesta and Gajeel could have slightly less than Torafusa. DeS Gray was not on par with Silver, so that doesn't follow.

Here is the contradiction. First, Gray with DeS means that he won't be affected by Silver and neither will Silver's attacks affect Gray. Therefore, they are in par. Base Gray was probably not. Second, Silver has 800 HP more than Tempesta so Natsu would have that much HP less than Silver? There is no spinning that. Lastly, what is the HP of someone quite strong like Aria?

This is just baseless speculation from you. Gray had time to improve while actually infiltrating Avatar for 6 months. Saying that Erza didn't improve because she was overseeing 24/7 is something ridiculous that you have to prove.

Hiro Mashima can't write 365 chapters on what happened. Therefore, he included these pages to portray the extent of the training during the timeskip. Sure, we didn't see any character train 24/7 but we at least saw something from them. That's all that I can say.

Kagura said that Dimaria's MP was overwhelming, not her combat skills. This doesn't mean that Dimaria can beat Kagura without her time magic. It's the exact situation of Natsu and Gray. Do you really think that Ajeel could beat Natsu and Gray without his sand powers?

Yeah, Dimaria's MP was overwhelming and not her combat skills but if both fighters were to have equal combat skills except one had more MP so more strength can be put into their attacks, who'd win? Here is the faulty logic. MP is fixed. It is pretty much a wizard's magical power or magical energy. Sure, the user can decide to suppress it for some unknown reason like an attempt to assassinate. Time magic has nothing to do with this. First, Dimaria didn't use time magic at the time. Second, time magic does not even equate to Dimaria's MP. Third, MP is used, to channel energy into her attacks like time magic. Not the other way around.

So... everyone is stronger. Doesn't prove anything about the gap between Erza and Kagura. Nowhere did Erza imply that Kagura was equal in combat strength to her, nor does Kagura have any feats to suggest this.

Now you are just being lazy.

Okay, if I'm lazy, then please tell me what Erza was trying to say. Don't tell me that she was trying to say that they work well together because how would that answer Kagura's question? You have to read in between the lines..

So what, Natsu didn't go all out against Bluenote. He most likely used comparable effort against Ajeel, which did nothing.

Not even close. Natsu's attacks on Ajeel were meant to keep his attacks from hitting them. He was playing on the defensive the whole time. One attack from Natsu was nothing. Natsu was clearly more serious against Bluenote than he ever had been against Ajeel.

So what, gap between Erza and Chelia >> gap between Tenrou Natsu and Max, which was closed by SO.

Closed by SO... Just closed? Or surpassed by a lot? I can't explain the amount of power Natsu bridged the gap from Max after getting Second Origin any more than this.

Lyon was obviously doing better than Gray in their fight...

Sure... Your opinion. Last time I checked, Gray fought both Lyon and Chelia with Juvia only supporting, meanwhile Lyon refuses to fight Juvia and only has a battle on one front whereas Gray has two.

Except that the manga never came close to proving it. You have to prove TO Chelia > Erza.

For the last time, I already did. You just refuse to believe it; therefore, with no counter-argument, all you can do is say for me to prove it. Just scroll back through the posts. I'll state it once again. The Spriggans are relatively equal whether you want to call Ajeel stronger or not, it is fine by me, because it won't be by much. Don't use Time Magic because with Time Magic, Dimaria is haxed, remember? It would be near a one-shot. The difference in the battle is that one didn't go full power and one-shotted while one went all out and still couldn't win the fight.

No, Tansu can go LFD at will and was still "overpowered" by Ajeel's aura. So based on your logic, LFD Natsu would lose as well. And nothing suggests that LFD Natsu > Erza at this point. MP doesn''t mean everything in a fight.

I know MP doesn't mean everything. But it means something which is something you have reduced to nothing. We don't know if LFD Natsu at full power can beat Ajeel but if he can't it just strengthens my point. I think it is clear that Natsu is stronger than Erza. Maybe not on a wide margin, but still enough.

Erza sent Ajeel flying into the distance and critically injured him. It's not that hard to understand that Erza didn't kill Ajeel because she didn't want to, the same way that Erza didn't kill Aria, Midnight, Jellal, Azuma, etc. Like anyone else, Erza can choose to hit vital points, like the head, or non-vital points. Saying Erza didn't beat Ajeel because he isn't dead is downright silly.

Really? Erza couldn't hit the head because she couldn't of. When she used Nakagami Starlight, the only thing she saw was light. She just estimated her attack at that single point. The sandstorm was clouding her vision which is the reason why she couldn't hit Ajeel in the first place.[/QUOTE]

 

[iDooom]

Here is the contradiction. First, Gray with DeS means that he won't be affected by Silver and neither will Silver's attacks affect Gray. Therefore, they are in par. Base Gray was probably not. Second, Silver has 800 HP more than Tempesta so Natsu would have that much HP less than Silver? There is no spinning that. Lastly, what is the HP of someone quite strong like Aria?

Once again, I never said people (like Natsu) had exactly the same amount of HP as their (equivalent) opponents. This just holds because none of them are really glass cannons / offensively weak tanks, so they have around as much HP as their opponents (who are equal to them in overall stats).

Hiro Mashima can't write 365 chapters on what happened. Therefore, he included these pages to portray the extent of the training during the timeskip. Sure, we didn't see any character train 24/7 but we at least saw something from them. That's all that I can say.

So you're saying that those pages are representative of 365 days... as opposed to the Lamia Scale Thanksgiving pages I showed. Really? Please provide some proof of this. Erza beating Ajeel is much more relevant than Wendy and Cherria beating fodder.

Yeah, Dimaria's MP was overwhelming and not her combat skills but if both fighters were to have equal combat skills except one had more MP so more strength can be put into their attacks, who'd win? Here is the faulty logic. MP is fixed. It is pretty much a wizard's magical power or magical energy. Sure, the user can decide to suppress it for some unknown reason like an attempt to assassinate. Time magic has nothing to do with this. First, Dimaria didn't use time magic at the time. Second, time magic does not even equate to Dimaria's MP. Third, MP is used, to channel energy into her attacks like time magic. Not the other way around.

If a wizard has a lot of MP, but uses egg-hatching magic, how much combat skill is this going to add? Dimaria did use time magic immediately afterwards: she activated Age Seal and cut Kagura's clothes.

Okay, if I'm lazy, then please tell me what Erza was trying to say. Don't tell me that she was trying to say that they work well together because how would that answer Kagura's question? You have to read in between the lines.

Erza is saying that they are friends and that they get to fight together, as opposed to against each other as in GMG. Nothing more, nothing less. It certainly does not mean that they are equal in strength when there was a significant gap between them at GMG.

Not even close. Natsu's attacks on Ajeel were meant to keep his attacks from hitting them. He was playing on the defensive the whole time. One attack from Natsu was nothing. Natsu was clearly more serious against Bluenote than he ever had been against Ajeel.

Natsu punching Ajeel in the face (with a supposedly weak attack) stops Ajeel from attacking him, how? Punching someone in the face is not a defensive move, and all of them stopped running away in order to fight Ajeel. Gray and Lucy stopping Ajeel's sand monsters while they were running away was a defensive move. Natsu turning and fighting Ajeel was not.

Closed by SO... Just closed? Or surpassed by a lot? I can't explain the amount of power Natsu bridged the gap from Max after getting Second Origin any more than this.

Max trained for 7 years, which = SO, and closed the gap between himself and Tenrou Natsu. If you're trying to say that Natsu, who = Max, pulled ahead with SO, that should be obvious. However, Chelia <<< Erza so that doesn't mean much.

For the last time, I already did. You just refuse to believe it; therefore, with no counter-argument, all you can do is say for me to prove it. Just scroll back through the posts. I'll state it once again. The Spriggans are relatively equal whether you want to call Ajeel stronger or not, it is fine by me, because it won't be by much. Don't use Time Magic because with Time Magic, Dimaria is haxed, remember? It would be near a one-shot. The difference in the battle is that one didn't go full power and one-shotted while one went all out and still couldn't win the fight.

You have never come close to proving TO Chelia > Erza. All you have proved is that TO is a boost for Chelia.

The Spriggans are relatively equal, so Ajeel has the same amount of one-shot hax as Dimaria? No, Ajeel has better physical stats than Dimaria, while Dimaria has more hax, making them close in strength overall. Dimaria without Age Seal is like Ajeel without sand magic: much weaker than normal. Dimaria one-shotted Carla, who <<< Erza. So impressive.

I know MP doesn't mean everything. But it means something which is something you have reduced to nothing. We don't know if LFD Natsu at full power can beat Ajeel but if he can't it just strengthens my point. I think it is clear that Natsu is stronger than Erza. Maybe not on a wide margin, but still enough.

Well since Ajeel > base Natsu, Ajeel no diffs Bluenote. So Erza low-no diffs Bluenote as well. Still no evidence that Natsu > Erza.

Really? Erza couldn't hit the head because she couldn't of. When she used Nakagami Starlight, the only thing she saw was light. She just estimated her attack at that single point. The sandstorm was clouding her vision which is the reason why she couldn't hit Ajeel in the first place.

I suggest you reread that because Ajeel was literally standing next to Erza. I think you're confusing Erza with Bisca, who fired Jupiter at the light in the sandstorm. Erza could have cut Ajeel's head off, but she didn't in the same way that she didn't cut Aria's/Midnight's/Minerva's heads off.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Once again, I never said people (like Natsu) had exactly the same amount of HP as their (equivalent) opponents. This just holds because none of them are really glass cannons / offensively weak tanks, so they have around as much HP as their opponents (who are equal to them in overall stats).

I'm not talking about exactly the same HP. I countered your argument on how even similar HP is still a significant difference, which makes your claim fallible. You don't need to repeat the same sentence in 3 posts... 800 HP is a pretty large gap considering the difference between Tempesta and Torafusa with Silver/Gray being even higher than him.

So you're saying that those pages are representative of 365 days... as opposed to the Lamia Scale Thanksgiving pages I showed. Really? Please provide some proof of this. Erza beating Ajeel is much more relevant than Wendy and Cherria beating fodder.

Considering the situation in which those pages were given, then yes. You just made an invalid comparison. Who here is a fodder? Erza "beating" Ajeel is more comparative to Wendy and Chelia beating Dimaria with Easy Difficulty.

If a wizard has a lot of MP, but uses egg-hatching magic, how much combat skill is this going to add? Dimaria did use time magic immediately afterwards: she activated Age Seal and cut Kagura's clothes.

I never said it adds combat skills. All I was saying was that it determines magic power which will end up being the winner in a fight... I even said "...if both fighters were to have equal combat skills...". Kawazu and Yomazu who had one of the weakest and most lame magic (Eggs and a Wimpy Sword) pretty much destroyed Gajeel who has iron the size of an enormous cutting sword/saw. So why did Gajeel get overwhelmed? Simply because their MP was higher than his. Someone of Gajeel's magic should defeat them with ease but needed Levy's help.

You just said yourself that she used Time Magic afterwards, so how would that be taken into account for her magic power beforehand?

Erza is saying that they are friends and that they get to fight together, as opposed to against each other as in GMG. Nothing more, nothing less. It certainly does not mean that they are equal in strength when there was a significant gap between them at GMG.

Kagura asked if Erza was wounded immediately after both of them destroyed Neinhart's guards, implying how she is still able to continue with such strength. Erza's reply was to say that she can still match with Kagura because they are similar in power. I didn't that they are exactly the same or that Kagura is stronger. If you don't believe me, go back and check my post. To say that Kagura is not even similar to Erza is stretching the truth.

Natsu punching Ajeel in the face (with a supposedly weak attack) stops Ajeel from attacking him, how? Punching someone in the face is not a defensive move, and all of them stopped running away in order to fight Ajeel. Gray and Lucy stopping Ajeel's sand monsters while they were running away was a defensive move. Natsu turning and fighting Ajeel was not.

They were about to run... Natsu was stubborn but he eventually complied. That punch at Ajeel didn't do anything but scratch him so how was that serious? Unless you're telling me that Natsu is just fodder? I think it was obvious that the punch was to keep him from initiating the first attack. Similar to how you would try to end your opponent in a fight by launching a fist or kick at him first rather than standing there until he hits you.

Max trained for 7 years, which = SO, and closed the gap between himself and Tenrou Natsu. If you're trying to say that Natsu, who = Max, pulled ahead with SO, that should be obvious. However, Chelia <<< Erza so that doesn't mean much.

Yeah, Natsu pulling ahead of Max with SO is obvious. What doesn't seem obvious to you and a few others here is how much he pulled ahead, let alone the extent of Third Origin which has to be a lot stronger or it wouldn't make sense.

You have never come close to proving TO Chelia > Erza. All you have proved is that TO is a boost for Chelia.

I've proven both using the same scenario. I proved that Chelia got a lot stronger with a huge boost by not being able to scratch Dimaria in the beginning but the ending up defeating her with very little difficulty. While Erza, barely "won" against Ajeel who are around the same level without Time Magic.

The Spriggans are relatively equal, so Ajeel has the same amount of one-shot hax as Dimaria? No, Ajeel has better physical stats than Dimaria, while Dimaria has more hax, making them close in strength overall. Dimaria without Age Seal is like Ajeel without sand magic: much weaker than normal. Dimaria one-shotted Carla, who <<< Erza. So impressive.

No, Dimaria has around equal stats to Ajeel. Nothing showed that she was below Ajeel except in AoE which almost every Spriggan that appeared so far seem to be inferior to him in that respect. Yes, Dimaria has more hax than Ajeel which would put her above Ajeel. She didn't just one-shot Carla, she fought against a Dragon Slayer and a God Slayer and would've killed Wendy too if Chelia didn't get TO, which is exactly my point. Third Origin made a big difference. By the way, Chelia's fate would have been the same as Wendy without her TO. So Dimaria would've 2v1 not counting a fodder.

Well since Ajeel > base Natsu, Ajeel no diffs Bluenote. So Erza low-no diffs Bluenote as well. Still no evidence that Natsu > Erza.

And still no evidence to say that Erza is stronger than Natsu. All that compared was Natsu against Bluenote. Ajeel against Bluenote. Erza against Bluenote. So all three can beat him. But which of the three are stronger? The only thing that puts Natsu higher than Erza is the fact that he trained, his hype, and his feats. Does Base Natsu beat Erza? Probably not. I've never even said that in the first place. Read the previous posts for proof. How about LFD or DF Natsu? Most likely.

I suggest you reread that because Ajeel was literally standing next to Erza. I think you're confusing Erza with Bisca, who fired Jupiter at the light in the sandstorm. Erza could have cut Ajeel's head off, but she didn't in the same way that she didn't cut Aria's/Midnight's/Minerva's heads off.

What? Since when did I say Erza was firing the Jupiter Cannon and using Nakagami Starlight from there? That is just absurd. I said that Bisca provided Erza with some visibility by firing the Jupiter Cannon in which Erza could see nothing but a light in the sandstorm. That is how she defeated Ajeel. She was almost blind with that attack so it's not like she had a choice of aiming for the head or not.

 

[iDooom]

I'm not talking about exactly the same HP. I countered your argument on how even similar HP is still a significant difference, which makes your claim fallible. You don't need to repeat the same sentence in 3 posts... 800 HP is a pretty large gap considering the difference between Tempesta and Torafusa with Silver/Gray being even higher than him.

Gajeel's HP > Natsu's HP because Gajeel has iron dragon scales. Silver > Gray and didn't use his full power against Gray.

Considering the situation in which those pages were given, then yes. You just made an invalid comparison. Who here is a fodder? Erza "beating" Ajeel is more comparative to Wendy and Chelia beating Dimaria with Easy Difficulty.

The Orochi Fin fodders you showed as "proof" of Wendy and Chelia training are fodder. Still doesn't prove Wendy or Chelia closed the gap with Erza.

Wendy and Chelia beating Dimaria? Oh... just ignore Ultear, Dimaria (without age seal) < Ajeel, and TO why don't you. And Easy Diff... just lol.

I never said it adds combat skills. All I was saying was that it determines magic power which will end up being the winner in a fight... I even said "...if both fighters were to have equal combat skills...". Kawazu and Yamazu who had one of the weakest and most lame magic (Eggs and a Wimpy Sword) pretty much destroyed Gajeel who has iron the size of an enormous cutting sword/saw. So why did Gajeel get overwhelmed? Simply because their MP was higher than his. Someone of Gajeel's magic should defeat them with ease but needed Levy's help.

Tenrou Gajeel was about on par with Tenrou Natsu, which isn't that strong. And he lost because it was a 2v1 (kinda). Gajeel would have beat either of them in a fair 1v1 fight. Not to mention they had comparable physical stats to Gajeel (speed, durability, etc.), not exceptional MP.

You just said yourself that she used Time Magic afterwards, so how would that be taken into account for her magic power beforehand?

Dimaria starts prepping Age Seal and Kagura senses her MP. Then Dimaria activates Age Seal and attacks. Is this really hard to understand?

Kagura asked if Erza was wounded immediately after both of them destroyed Neinhart's guards, implying how she is still able to continue with such strength. Erza's reply was to say that she can still match with Kagura because they are similar in power. I didn't that they are exactly the same or that Kagura is stronger. If you don't believe me, go back and check my post. To say that Kagura is not even similar to Erza is stretching the truth.

What translation are you using? I don't see where Erza says that Kagura is similar to her in power.

Besides, "similar" is a subjective and relative term. Kagura is more similar to Erza in strength than someone like Lucy or Chelia. So what?

They were about to run... Natsu was stubborn but he eventually complied. That punch at Ajeel didn't do anything but scratch him so how was that serious? Unless you're telling me that Natsu is just fodder? I think it was obvious that the punch was to keep him from initiating the first attack. Similar to how you would try to end your opponent in a fight by launching a fist or kick at him first rather than standing there until he hits you.

No... All of them were about to fight. After Natsu's punch, Gray tried freeze Ajeel's sand but it failed. Makarov eventually had to stop them from fighting. Everyone besides Makarov had decided to turn and fight back. What I'm saying that Natsu's punch was on the same level as the attacks he used against Bluenote, but Ajeel > Natsu so Ajeel just tanked it.

According to you that punch was meant to stop Ajeel from attacking, so why use such a weak punch? If anything, it would only make Ajeel angrier. Natsu's punch ended up totally failing to stop Ajeel, so him trying to "end" his opponent did absolutely nothing.

Yeah, Natsu pulling ahead of Max with SO is obvious. What doesn't seem obvious to you and a few others here is how much he pulled ahead, let alone the extent of Third Origin which has to be a lot stronger or it wouldn't make sense.

I'll throw your words back at you. Pre-SO Erza was on par with Kagura; what doesn't seem obvious to you how far ahead she pulled ahead of Kagura.

I've proven both using the same scenario. I proved that Chelia got a lot stronger with a huge boost by not being able to scratch Dimaria in the beginning but the ending up defeating her with very little difficulty. While Erza, barely "won" against Ajeel who are around the same level without Time Magic.

Sigh. Once again, Ajeel > Dimaria in physical stats. "A huge boost" would not necessarily close the gap between Erza and Chelia.

No, Dimaria has around equal stats to Ajeel. Nothing showed that she was below Ajeel except in AoE which almost every Spriggan that appeared so far seem to be inferior to him in that respect. Yes, Dimaria has more hax than Ajeel which would put her above Ajeel. She didn't just one-shot Carla, she fought against a Dragon Slayer and a God Slayer and would've killed Wendy too if Chelia didn't get TO, which is exactly my point. Third Origin made a big difference. By the way, Chelia's fate would have been the same as Wendy without her TO. So Dimaria would've 2v1 not counting a fodder.

Dimaria's initial sneak attack on Kagura did absoutely nothing. Her sword slashes on base Wendy and Chelia did no damage. Her God Soul nuke injured Wendy and Chelia a bit, but they were fine. Dimaria's beam incapacitated a "fodder", but failed to incapacitate DF Wendy. As far as offence goes, Dimaria's is pathetic and significantly below that of Ajeel. Similarly, Dimaria got kicked in the face by Chelia and Wendy multiple times, so her speed is subpar. Hence why I say Ajeel has better physical stats than Dimaria.

Saying that Wendy is a "Dragon Slayer" is just you trying to dress up Wendy as a strong fighter despite her being nowhere near as strong many other characters and far below Spriggan level. It's funny that you say one-shotting Carla is impressive, and then call her a fodder in the same paragraph.

And still no evidence to say that Erza is stronger than Natsu. All that compared was Natsu against Bluenote. Ajeel against Bluenote. Erza against Bluenote. So all three can beat him. But which of the three are stronger? The only thing that puts Natsu higher than Erza is the fact that he trained, his hype, and his feats. Does Base Natsu beat Erza? Probably not. I've never even said that in the first place. Read the previous posts for proof. How about LFD or DF Natsu? Most likely.

Base/LFD Natsu < Erza in feats until he convincingly beats a Spriggan. Natsu didn't use DF against Bluenote, nor can he go DF at will. Natsu had a hyped tattoo that could possibly kill Zeref, but it's used up and doesn't factor into his power. On the other hand, Erza has hype of being selected as 7th GM and can terrify Natsu with a look: http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/438/16. Natsu has more fanmade hype, but that's about it.

Training guessing is the silliest thing on this forum. It's basically "Character X said something and I'm going to interpret it as they got 1000x stronger than everyone else because I want them to be super strong!!!" Or what you did... providing one panel of Wendy and Chelia fighting fodder as "proof" that they got super strong. Or you saying that Kagura closed a "HUGE BOOST" because of one interpretable sentence and no feats.

What? Since when did I say Erza was firing the Jupiter Cannon and using Nakagami Starlight from there? That is just absurd. I said that Bisca provided Erza with some visibility by firing the Jupiter Cannon in which Erza could see nothing but a light in the sandstorm. That is how she defeated Ajeel. She was almost blind with that attack so it's not like she had a choice of aiming for the head or not.

What? Erza was producing the light in the sandstorm and was literally next to Ajeel. The Jupiter shot surprised Ajeel; it didn't provide visibility.

Zeref was the one who said Ajeel hadn't been killed. Zeref said that this (not killing) was FT's greatest weakness. I can't believe you're still arguing this.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Gajeel's HP > Natsu's HP because Gajeel has iron dragon scales. Silver > Gray and didn't use his full power against Gray.

Dragon scales add Defense not HP. Silver is not stronger than DeS Gray so my point still stands. Gajeel > Natsu and DeS Gray > Natsu in HP.

The Orochi Fin fodders you showed as "proof" of Wendy and Chelia training are fodder. Still doesn't prove Wendy or Chelia closed the gap with Erza.

I never showed proof of the anyone fodder here. I asked who you were labeling as fodder. Bluenote is fodder compared to the averaged power of everyone active in the present timeskip. But he clearly wasn't fodder to Wendy or Chelia so they still got training whereas Erza got a very minimal amount.

Wendy and Chelia beating Dimaria? Oh... just ignore Ultear, Dimaria (without age seal) < Ajeel, and TO why don't you. And Easy Diff... just lol.

Proof here you didn't read my posts. TO is a condition that was only used for Chelia. Since this is Erza vs Dimaria, she gets none as even the Opening Posts states that. Also, Dimaria almost one-shots Ajeel with Time Magic and without Ultear's inference so without it, she is very much similar to Ajeel?

Tenrou Gajeel was about on par with Tenrou Natsu, which isn't that strong. And he lost because it was a 2v1 (kinda). Gajeel would have beat either of them in a fair 1v1 fight. Not to mention they had comparable physical stats to Gajeel (speed, durability, etc.), not exceptional MP.

I can tell you're making excuses here. 2v1 against fodders is not hard. Kawazu and Yomazu were not considered to be part of the 7 Kin of Purgatory who most FT mages like Natsu and Gray defeated in a one-on-one match. Are you saying Gajeel is weaker than them by a lot now? Therefore, those two fodders combined should be equal to a member of the 7 Kin of Purgatory or even weaker still. It was a 2v2 later on in the fight so no, Gajeel would not beat them in a one-on-one. Are you saying Gajeel has comparative physical stats to a chicken and a dog? You must be really desperate here. A wizards's MP is factored into one's stats by the way...

Dimaria starts prepping Age Seal and Kagura senses her MP. Then Dimaria activates Age Seal and attacks. Is this really hard to understand?

Prepping? You're starting to make things up here. It is very clear that it was instantaneous.

What translation are you using? I don't see where Erza says that Kagura is similar to her in power.

Besides, "similar" is a subjective and relative term. Kagura is more similar to Erza in strength than someone like Lucy or Chelia. So what?

You don't see it because you don't understand it. Similar obviously means not far off which is definitely true here.

No... All of them were about to fight. After Natsu's punch, Gray tried freeze Ajeel's sand but it failed. Makarov eventually had to stop them from fighting. Everyone besides Makarov had decided to turn and fight back. What I'm saying that Natsu's punch was on the same level as the attacks he used against Bluenote, but Ajeel > Natsu so Ajeel just tanked it.

The attack used on Ajeel wasn't even close to the one used on Bluenote. Ajeel tanked it because Natsu was too weak or didn't put enough power into the attack. Simple as that.

According to you that punch was meant to stop Ajeel from attacking, so why use such a weak punch? If anything, it would only make Ajeel angrier. Natsu's punch ended up totally failing to stop Ajeel, so him trying to "end" his opponent did absolutely nothing.

He did not intentionally use a weak punch. He thought something of that caliber was good enough. Apparently, he found out that a it was too weak and that Ajeel is a lot stronger than he thought. He underestimated him.

I'll throw your words back at you. Pre-SO Erza was on par with Kagura; what doesn't seem obvious to you how far ahead she pulled ahead of Kagura.

Never denied that... Fact here is, Natsu can knock out Max in one punch, which Erza can't do to Chelia unless you're telling me that she can knock Lyon out in one punch and Gray out in two punches....

Sigh. Once again, Ajeel > Dimaria in physical stats. "A huge boost" would not necessarily close the gap between Erza and Chelia.

No, they are pretty much equal in stats without any hax involved.

Dimaria's initial sneak attack on Kagura did absoutely nothing. Her sword slashes on base Wendy and Chelia did no damage. Her God Soul nuke injured Wendy and Chelia a bit, but they were fine. Dimaria's beam incapacitated a "fodder", but failed to incapacitate DF Wendy. As far as offence goes, Dimaria's is pathetic and significantly below that of Ajeel. Similarly, Dimaria got kicked in the face by Chelia and Wendy multiple times, so her speed is subpar. Hence why I say Ajeel has better physical stats than Dimaria.

I'm not counting the sneak attack... I'm going off of Kagura herself. Dimaria's sword slashes were to keep off Wendy and Chelia from hitting her because they initiated the attack. It's obvious it was nothing more than a defense/block. She would've killed DF Wendy. You still don't seem to realize that... Only reason why Wendy survived was because it was a 2v1 with someone of Erza's level in power. Dimaria being below Ajeel is just you repeating yourself, trying to win the argument with such weak points. Ajeel is slow. He only caught Era by surprises due to low visibility. He even got slashed at one point for not being quick enough to dodge... Still, you haven't proved anything except my own claim.

Saying that Wendy is a "Dragon Slayer" is just you trying to dress up Wendy as a strong fighter despite her being nowhere near as strong many other characters and far below Spriggan level. It's funny that you say one-shotting Carla is impressive, and then call her a fodder in the same paragraph.

Nope. Not dressing Wendy as a strong fighter. Just saying that she is decent and not a fodder. You are interpreting Wendy as a strong fighter. Never said one-shotting Carla is impressive... You're confusing your own ideas with my post. I said fighting a 2v1 and being able to kill one is impressive, let alone 2, if a haxed magic like TO wasn't involved.

Base/LFD Natsu < Erza in feats until he convincingly beats a Spriggan. Natsu didn't use DF against Bluenote, nor can he go DF at will. Natsu had a hyped tattoo that could possibly kill Zeref, but it's used up and doesn't factor into his power. On the other hand, Erza has hype of being selected as 7th GM and can terrify Natsu with a look: http://www.mangareader.net/fairy-tail/438/16. Natsu has more fanmade hype, but that's about it.

Natsu can go DF at will now. Already proved in Tartaros Arc, let alone now. That panel... Obviously for comedy purposes... Natsu has more hype and feats than Erza. You still haven't quite understood that yet.

Training guessing is the silliest thing on this forum. It's basically "Character X said something and I'm going to interpret it as they got 1000x stronger than everyone else because I want them to be super strong!!!" Or what you did... providing one panel of Wendy and Chelia fighting fodder as "proof" that they got super strong. Or you saying that Kagura closed a "HUGE BOOST" because of one interpretable sentence and no feats.

Never said anything like this... You're reading everything wrong. The panel I provided of Wendy and Chelia is not proof that they're strong but rather that they trained. Erza, would still be way higher than them if she trained just as much; however, it wasn't portrayed as much. Kagura has similar feats to Erza right now. Both being overwhelmed by a Spriggan of similar power and both one-shotting fodders in a similar manner. Hype-wise, they are also similar especially with that one quote from Erza.

What? Erza was producing the light in the sandstorm and was literally next to Ajeel. The Jupiter shot surprised Ajeel; it didn't provide visibility.

Yeah, my mistake. You win here. It left an opening, not visibility.

Zeref was the one who said Ajeel hadn't been killed. Zeref said that this (not killing) was FT's greatest weakness. I can't believe you're still arguing this.

You're bringing this back up, not me. What is said is nothing compared to what has been done. Seems like you count on words more than actual events throughout the story like most people...

 

[iDooom]

Dragon scales add Defense not HP. Silver is not stronger than DeS Gray so my point still stands. Gajeel > Natsu and DeS Gray > Natsu in HP.

Silver > DeS Gray with a quite significant gap. What's wrong with Gajeel > Natsu in HP?

I never showed proof of the anyone fodder here. I asked who you were labeling as fodder. Bluenote is fodder compared to the averaged power of everyone active in the present timeskip. But he clearly wasn't fodder to Wendy or Chelia so they still got training whereas Erza got a very minimal amount.

Bluenote gives Wendy and Chelia training... when they didn't even come close to beating him. Also, you admit that Erza fodderizes Bluenote.

Proof here you didn't read my posts. TO is a condition that was only used for Chelia. Since this is Erza vs Dimaria, she gets none as even the Opening Posts states that. Also, Dimaria almost one-shots Ajeel with Time Magic and without Ultear's inference so without it, she is very much similar to Ajeel?

Show that Dimaria "almost one-shots" Ajeel with Age Seal. Dimaria (without time magic) is similar to Ajeel in power... Please provide proof.

I can tell you're making excuses here. 2v1 against fodders is not hard. Kawazu and Yamazu were not considered to be part of the 7 Kin of Purgatory who most FT mages like Natsu and Gray defeated in a one-on-one match. Are you saying Gajeel is weaker than them by a lot now? Therefore, those two fodders combined should be equal to a member of the 7 Kin of Purgatory or even weaker still. It was a 2v2 later on in the fight so no, Gajeel would not beat them in a one-on-one. Are you saying Gajeel has comparative physical stats to a chicken and a dog? You must be really desperate here. A wizards's MP is factored into one's stats by the way...

Kawazu and Yamazu are not fodders. Individually they are just below the 7 Kin, and together they are about as strong as Zancrow. Levy was not as strong as either of them. The fight showed that they had similar speed and strength to Gajeel, so your point is invalid. Bringing up what they look like is just you trying to dodge the point. You have yet to show that they had "superior MP" to Gajeel, which you claimed.

Prepping? You're starting to make things up here. It is very clear that it was instantaneous.

Oh, so you are saying that Dimaria didn't click her teeth right before activating Age Seal against Wendy and Chelia because it's "instantaneous"? Also, Kagura senses Dimaria's MP and immediately sees the effects of Age Seal on the next page. Thus, the MP she sensed likely came from Age Seal itself.

You don't see it because you don't understand it. Similar obviously means not far off which is definitely true here.

Show me the page where Erza says that. Similar can mean anything: two humans can be similar because they are both human.

The attack used on Ajeel wasn't even close to the one used on Bluenote. Ajeel tanked it because Natsu was too weak or didn't put enough power into the attack. Simple as that.

He did not intentionally use a weak punch. He thought something of that caliber was good enough. Apparently, he found out that a it was too weak and that Ajeel is a lot stronger than he thought. He underestimated him.

Natsu underestimated a person who was stated to be on par with the number 1 Wizard Saint and whose MP made Natsu scared to the point that he considered using Igneel's power against him. Totally makes sense. When Natsu can apparently use attacks like the one against Bluenote casually.

Never denied that... Fact here is, Natsu can knock out Max in one punch, which Erza can't do to Chelia unless you're telling me that she can knock Lyon out in one punch and Gray out in two punches....

I assume you are talking about Tenrou/GMG arc because that is when Natsu gets SO. GMG Erza no diffs Chelia and one-shots Lyon and Gray. This can be easily seen because Kagura > Lyon and there was a gap between Erza and Kagura equivalent to that between Natsu and Max.

No, they are pretty much equal in stats without any hax involved.

Saying this over and over again won't make it true. Provide proof please.

I'm not counting the sneak attack... I'm going off of Kagura herself. Dimaria's sword slashes were to keep off Wendy and Chelia from hitting her because they initiated the attack. It's obvious it was nothing more than a defense/block. She would've killed DF Wendy. You still don't seem to realize that... Only reason why Wendy survived was because it was a 2v1 with someone of Erza's level in power. Dimaria being below Ajeel is just you repeating yourself, trying to win the argument with such weak points. Ajeel is slow. He only caught Era by surprises due to low visibility. He even got slashed at one point for not being quick enough to dodge... Still, you haven't proved anything except my own claim.

I have shown that Dimaria's attacks have been much weaker than Ajeel's and that Dimaria's speed < Ajeel's speed. Ajeel could kill DF Wendy with ease. Prove TO Chelia = Erza in power.

Using Erza to say that say that Ajeel is weak... and then using that to say that Erza is weak is called circular reasoning.

Nope. Not dressing Wendy as a strong fighter. Just saying that she is decent and not a fodder. You are interpreting Wendy as a strong fighter. Never said one-shotting Carla is impressive... You're confusing your own ideas with my post. I said fighting a 2v1 and being able to kill one is impressive, let alone 2, if a haxed magic like TO wasn't involved.

Erza fighting against 2x Max and being able to no diff both is impressive? Gajeel fighting against "two fodders" is impressive?

Natsu can go DF at will now. Already proved in Tartaros Arc, let alone now. That panel... Obviously for comedy purposes... Natsu has more hype and feats than Erza. You still haven't quite understood that yet.

No, Natsu only went DF in Tartaros because he thought Gray was severely injured. Natsu has yet to show he can activate it at any time. And if Natsu could go DF at will, he wouldn't have considered using Igneel's power against Brandish and Ajeel. Show me Natsu's superior hype and feats.

Never said anything like this... You're reading everything wrong. The panel I provided of Wendy and Chelia is not proof that they're strong but rather that they trained. Erza, would still be way higher than them if she trained just as much; however, it wasn't portrayed as much. Kagura has similar feats to Erza right now. Both being overwhelmed by a Spriggan of I liar power and both one-shooting fodders in a similar manner. Hype-wise, they are also similar especially with that one quote from Erza.

Prove that Erza didn't train or improve. Wendy and Chelia "trained" and still struggled against Bluenote. Prove that Dimaria and Ajeel are of similar power and that Kagura and Erza did equally well against them. Show me Kagura's hype equivalent to Erza being made GM.

Yeah, my mistake. You win here. It left an opening, not visibility.

So you concede that Erza could have killed Ajeel but chose not to.

You're bringing this back up, not me. What is said is nothing compared to what has been done. Seems like you count on words more than actual events throughout the story like most people...

Zeref's words agree with every previous arc besides Tartaros, where FT doesn't kill their opponents even if doing so leads to problems later. It agrees with FT taking Brandish captive and Erza not killing Ajeel. Whereas you pretend that those previous arcs don't exist.

"What is said is nothing compared to what has been done." I should save this quote. Especially when you arguing that one line from Erza (which I am not aware of) "proves" that Kagura = Erza. When GMG showed that there was a significant gap between them.

 

[XXEliteXXAceXX]

Silver > DeS Gray with a quite significant gap. What's wrong with Gajeel > Natsu in HP?

Silver's stats don't even compare to Base Mard Geer let alone Etherious Mard Geer who Gray killed in two attacks. Not to mention, Etherious Tempesta who is close to Silver in stats was one-shotted by Gray. So, DeS Gray ≥ Silver. What is wrong with Gajeel > Natsu in HP? Simply because Natsu has the edge over Gajeel and by your logic, you say that characters on par should have similar HP. That means you are contradicting yourself because if Natsu is more powerful than Gajeel, how does Gajeel even come close to having more HP than Natsu? This is a plain and simple concept.

Bluenote gives Wendy and Chelia training... when they didn't even come close to beating him. Also, you admit that Erza fodderizes Bluenote.

You don't need to beat your opponent to train... I don't even know where you got that from. You can train as long as you fight someone or something that is either equal in power or stronger than you. Fighting fodders and weakling does nothing because you are already stronger than them. Just like a punching bag. Are you stronger than one? No. Nobody punches through a punching bag. At most, they make it fly back and forth a few times. Still training...

Show that Dimaria "almost one-shots" Ajeel with Age Seal. Dimaria (without time magic) is similar to Ajeel in power... Please provide proof.

Don't need to show anything here. It is apparent that Dimaria with Time Magic is haxed and therefore kills Ajeel without any effort as she stops time and slices his head off. Without Time Magic, Dimaria is similar to Ajeel by logic and by the fact that they performed similar feats against similar powers regarding their opponent.

Kawazu and Yamazu are not fodders. Individually they are just below the 7 Kin, and together they are about as strong as Zancrow. Levy was not as strong as either of them. The fight showed that they had similar speed and strength to Gajeel, so your point is invalid. Bringing up what they look like is just you trying to dodge the point. You have yet to show that they had "superior MP" to Gajeel, which you claimed.

Not fodders? The manga made it clear that they were. They aren't just below the 7 Kin or Purgatory, they are way below... And together, they are no where near as strong as Zancrow... Their boss, Caprico, is already weaker than Zancrow... Levy was holding off Yomazu and Gajeel still couldn't defeat Kawazu. They outclassed Gajeel in a fight, so how does their stats compare to him? Those fodders even admitted they aren't on the same level as the 7 Kin of Puragtory.

Spoiler

So either their MP is higher than Gajeel or Gajeel is weaker than Natsu, Gray, Erza, etc.

Oh, so you are saying that Dimaria didn't click her teeth right before activating Age Seal against Wendy and Chelia because it's "instantaneous"? Also, Kagura senses Dimaria's MP and immediately sees the effects of Age Seal on the next page. Thus, the MP she sensed likely came from Age Seal itself.

The moment Dimaria clicks her teeth, the moment time stops. That is the definition of instantaneous. I don't get why it is so hard to grasp. No, Kagura was talking about Dimaria's power and sensing it before the effects of Age Seal, so your point is invalid.

Show me the page where Erza says that. Similar can mean anything: two humans can be similar because they are both human.

Two humans can be very different in power like Gildarts and Reedus. The fact here is that Kagura and Erza are not leagues apart.

Natsu underestimated a person who was stated to be on par with the number 1 Wizard Saint and whose MP made Natsu scared to the point that he considered using Igneel's power against him. Totally makes sense. When Natsu can apparently use attacks like the one against Bluenote casually.

Yeah, so? First Ajeel is not on God Serena's level. That was just hype and words. Feats have already proved otherwise. Second, it is obvious that Natsu is portrayed by Hiro Mashima to not think much during battles. I don't know why Natsu did what he did, but he did. I'm not here to write what is supposed to happen in the manga. I am just restating what already happened which you still seem to deny, despite the fact that it is shown in the manga.

I assume you are talking about Tenrou/GMG arc because that is when Natsu gets SO. GMG Erza no diffs Chelia and one-shots Lyon and Gray. This can be easily seen because Kagura > Lyon and there was a gap between Erza and Kagura equivalent to that between Natsu and Max.

Erza beats Chelia with no difficulty and one-shots Lyon + Gray? That is the most absurd comment I've seen in a long time. First, Kagura cannot one-shot Lyon. She may defeat him with relative ease but not one-shot. Second, Gray is stronger than Lyon so I don't see how you can put them on the same level. Third, the gap between Kagura and Erza is far less than Natsu and Max.

Saying this over and over again won't make it true. Provide proof please.

Already did. You just disregard it every single time. I won't bother providing more proof to someone who keeps negating it.

I have shown that Dimaria's attacks have been much weaker than Ajeel's and that Dimaria's speed < Ajeel's speed. Ajeel could kill DF Wendy with ease. Prove TO Chelia = Erza in power.

No, you have not shown nor proven anything to say that Dimaria is weaker than Ajeel. Ajeel killing DF Wendy is no proof. Besides, Dimaria can do the same and faster than Ajeel too. I already proved TO Chelia ≥ Erza based on their fights with the Spriggans.

Using Erza to say that say that Ajeel is weak... and then using that to say that Erza is weak is called circular reasoning.

I never called Ajeel weak. Don't put words in my mouth. I said that he and Dimaria are equals meaning they are extremely powerful. I also never said Erza is weak... Is she weaker than a Spriggan? Maybe. But that is because Spriggans shouldn't be underestimated like what you're doing.

Erza fighting against 2x Max and being able to no diff both is impressive? Gajeel fighting against "two fodders" is impressive?

No. I was obviously talking about the fight between Dimaria, Wendy, and Chelia. Next time before you post, understand the context that I'm talking about.

No, Natsu only went DF in Tartaros because he thought Gray was severely injured. Natsu has yet to show he can activate it at any time. And if Natsu could go DF at will, he wouldn't have considered using Igneel's power against Brandish and Ajeel. Show me Natsu's superior hype and feats.

Natsu has the power to activate DF at will... Even Wendy can do it. I can't tell if he considered using Igneel's power against Brandish and Ajeel or that it was reacting to the massive amount of MP present, but even if he did consider it, the reason would most likely be that Natsu actually understood the extent to which the Spriggans' powers were at.

Prove that Erza didn't train or improve. Wendy and Chelia "trained" and still struggled against Bluenote. Prove that Dimaria and Ajeel are of similar power and that Kagura and Erza did equally well against them. Show me Kagura's hype equivalent to Erza being made GM.

I can't prove that Erza trained but I can say that she was portrayed to not train as much as others. Wendy and Chelia definitely trained. That much is obvious. I already proved that Dimaria and Ajeel are of similar power. Kagura didn't get much panel time to go against a Spriggan so I wouldn't say they do equally well against them but I did say that they one-shotted the fodders in a similar manner. Also, both were overwhelmed by a Spriggan. Kagura is probably the strongest of Mermaid Heel and Erza becoming GM was just for comedic reasons, not to mention, plot.

So you concede that Erza could have killed Ajeel but chose not to.

No, what I meant was that you were right regarding what happened in the chapter and the events that unfolded. Erza still couldn't kill Ajeel.

Zeref's words agree with every previous arc besides Tartaros, where FT doesn't kill their opponents even if doing so leads to problems later. It agrees with FT taking Brandish captive and Erza not killing Ajeel. Whereas you pretend that those previous arcs don't exist.

No, there are plenty of other arcs that show Fairy Tail killing their enemies. Not just Tartaros. FT taking Brandish captive is for plot reasons that we don't know of yet. However, it will be revealed in future chapters.

"What is said is nothing compared to what has been done." I should save this quote. Especially when you arguing that one line from Erza (which I am not aware of) "proves" that Kagura = Erza. When GMG showed that there was a significant gap between them.

For the last time, I didn't say equal once. Go ahead and search my post. I said they are similar in the nature of their powers which is not deniable.

 

[iDooom]

Silver's stats don't even compare to Base Mard Geer let alone Etherious Mard Geer who Gray killed in two attacks. Not to mention, Etherious Tempesta who is close to Silver in stats was one-shotted by Gray. So, DeS Gray ≥ Silver. What is wrong with Gajeel > Natsu in HP? Simply because Natsu has the edge over Gajeel and by your logic, you say that characters on par should have similar HP. That means you are contradicting yourself because if Natsu is more powerful than Gajeel, how does Gajeel even come close to having more HP than Natsu? This is a plain and simple concept.

You're saying that base Tartaros Natsu > Gajeel. Do you have any proof of this? And once again, I never said that they had exactly the same HP as their enemies. Natsu could have 2200 HP, Gajeel, 2300, Torafuza 2500, and Tempesta 2000 and they would still be on the same level.

DeS Silver > LFD Natsu and was closer to Kyoka/Erza level. DeS Gray = LFD Natsu (disregarding slayer advantage). DeS Gray dealing a lot of damage to demons means that he is a demon slayer and so does extra damage to demons.

You don't need to beat your opponent to train... I don't even know where you got that from. You can train as long as you fight someone or something that is either equal in power or stronger than you. Fighting fodders and weakling does nothing because you are already stronger than them. Just like a punching bag. Are you stronger than one? No. Nobody punches through a punching bag. At most, they make it fly back and forth a few times. Still training...

Spoiler

Interesting. It appears that not only does lying flat on the ground count as training, it makes Chelia level characters stronger than Bluenote in one encounter!

Don't need to show anything here. It is apparent that Dimaria with Time Magic is haxed and therefore kills Ajeel without any effort as she stops time and slices his head off. Without Time Magic, Dimaria is similar to Ajeel by logic and by the fact that they performed similar feats against similar powers regarding their opponent.

Prove that Dimaria has enough offensive power to cut off Ajeel's head. Dimaria did not perform nearly as well against far weaker opponents.

Not fodders? The manga made it clear that they were. They aren't just below the 7 Kin or Purgatory, they are way below... And together, they are no where near as strong as Zancrow... Their boss, Caprico, is already weaker than Zancrow... Levy was holding off Yomazu and Gajeel still couldn't defeat Kawazu. They outclassed Gajeel in a fight, so how does their stats compare to him? Those fodders even admitted they aren't on the same level as the 7 Kin of Puragtory.

Spoiler

So either their MP is higher than Gajeel or Gajeel is weaker than Natsu, Gray, Erza, etc.

I rank the 7 Kin as follows: Azuma > Ultear > Rustyrose > Zancrow > Meredy > Kain. Caprico is hard to rank because the limits of his human subordination powers are unclear. Caprico could potentially be stronger than Zancrow while fighting humans. Azuma, Ultear, and Rustyrose would beat both Gajeel's opponents without too much trouble. All of the 7 Kin would beat Yomazu or Kawazu in a 1v1. This is consistent with Yomazu's statement that he (alone) stands no chance against the 7 Kin. None of this shows that Yomazu + Kawazu < Zancrow.

Gajeel is weaker than Erza. Nice of you to point that out.

The moment Dimaria clicks her teeth, the moment time stops. That is the definition of instantaneous. I don't get why it is so hard to grasp. No, Kagura was talking about Dimaria's power and sensing it before the effects of Age Seal, so your point is invalid.

So were the words Dimaria spoke to Chelia and Wendy also instantaneous? To use any spell, a wizard must presumably gather MP and prepare to cast the spell. The fact that Kagura sensed Dimaria's MP one page before seeing the effects of Dimaria's Age Seal attack suggests that Kagura sensed Dimaria's MP from Age Seal. Even if time stops instantaneously when Dimaria releases her MP, Kagura would sense Dimaria's MP as soon as time starts again and possibly before Kagura notices that she's been attacked.

Two humans can be very different in power like Gildarts and Reedus. The fact here is that Kagura and Erza are not leagues apart.

Kagura and Erza were as far apart during GMG as Max was from Natsu. Would you call that a league?

Yeah, so? First Ajeel is not on God Serena's level. That was just hype and words. Feats have already proved otherwise. Second, it is obvious that Natsu is portrayed by Hiro Mashima to not think much during battles. I don't know why Natsu did what he did, but he did. I'm not here to write what is supposed to happen in the manga. I am just restating what already happened which you still seem to deny, despite the fact that it is shown in the manga.

Prove that Ajeel < God Serena. No, you are simply stating your opinion of what happened, which doesn't happen to coincide with what actually happened. Natsu attacking Ajeel failed spectacularly to prevent Ajeel from attacking them back. You then attempt to excuse this by saying Natsu is stupid. On the other hand, I interpret this scene as Natsu attacking Ajeel in order to beat him, which does not require stupidity on Natsu's part.

Erza beats Chelia with no difficulty and one-shots Lyon + Gray? That is the most absurd comment I've seen in a long time. First, Kagura cannot one-shot Lyon. She may defeat him with relative ease but not one-shot. Second, Gray is stronger than Lyon so I don't see how you can put them on the same level. Third, the gap between Kagura and Erza is far less than Natsu and Max.

The gap between Kagura and Erza is equivalent to one SO boost. Which was also the gap between Natsu and Max. Since you say that Natsu one-shots Max, logically SO Erza one-shots Kagura. And Kagura > Lyon > Chelia.

Already did. You just disregard it every single time. I won't bother providing more proof to someone who keeps negating it.

You keep saying that Ajeel = Dimaria in physical stats repeatedly without good evidence.

No, you have not shown nor proven anything to say that Dimaria is weaker than Ajeel. Ajeel killing DF Wendy is no proof. Besides, Dimaria can do the same and faster than Ajeel too. I already proved TO Chelia ≥ Erza based on their fights with the Spriggans.

I have showed many times that Dimaria's physical stats are lower than Ajeel's. Such as base Wendy and Chelia repeatedly kicking Dimaria in the face and tanking Dimaria's attacks. You keep bringing up Dimaria WITH AGE SEAL in your comparisons, such as saying that "Dimaria can do the same and faster than Ajeel too". Dimaria's strength WITH AGE SEAL =/= Dimaria's strength without it. So you have yet to prove TO Chelia >= Erza.

I never called Ajeel weak. Don't put words in my mouth. I said that he and Dimaria are equals meaning they are extremely powerful. I also never said Erza is weak... Is she weaker than a Spriggan? Maybe. But that is because Spriggans shouldn't be underestimated like what you're doing.

Oh, I thought you wrote:

Ajeel is slow. He only caught Era (sic) by surprises due to low visibility. He even got slashed at one point for not being quick enough to dodge.

Definitely not saying that Ajeel is slow and weak. And saying that Ajeel is slow for not dodging Erza implies that Erza is slow. If Erza was fast on the other hand, your argument would be as meaningless as the argument that God Serena was slow for not dodging Acnologia. You then use this argument of Ajeel being weak (relying on the assumption that Erza is slow) to say Ajeel = Dimaria and Dimaria > Erza. Hence, you attempt to prove that Erza is weak using the assumption that Erza is weak. This is called a circular argument.

No. I was obviously talking about the fight between Dimaria, Wendy, and Chelia. Next time before you post, understand the context that I'm talking about.

You posted

I said fighting a 2v1 and being able to kill one is impressive, let alone 2

saying that Dimaria fighting a 2v1, regardless of how weak those two were, was an "impressive" achievement. I countered by giving examples of 2v1s that you did not consider impressive. Such as Erza vs 2x Max and Gajeel vs "two fodders". Hence, Dimaria fighting Wendy and Chelia is also not impressive simply because its a 2v1.

Natsu has the power to activate DF at will... Even Wendy can do it. I can't tell if he considered using Igneel's power against Brandish and Ajeel or that it was reacting to the massive amount of MP present, but even if he did consider it, the reason would most likely be that Natsu actually understood the extent to which the Spriggans' powers were at.

Last time I checked, Natsu =/= Wendy. Can Natsu heal other people, cure poisons, and restore MP? Natsu considering using up his one-time power-up to kill Zeref on Spriggans he could otherwise beat would be incredibly stupid, even for your interpretation of Natsu.

I can't prove that Erza trained but I can say that she was portrayed to not train as much as others. Wendy and Chelia definitely trained. That much is obvious. I already proved that Dimaria and Ajeel are of similar power. Kagura didn't get much panel time to go against a Spriggan so I wouldn't say they do equally well against them but I did say that they one-shotted the fodders in a similar manner. Also, both were overwhelmed by a Spriggan. Kagura is probably the strongest of Mermaid Heel and Erza becoming GM was just for comedic reasons, not to mention, plot.

Show me this "portrayed to not train as much as others" you speak of. Elfman "definitely trained" too: this must mean Elfman > Makarov and Gildarts, right? You have not come close to proving that Dimaria = Ajeel or Kagura ≈ Erza. And saying it was "comedic" or "plot" is just an excuse. You wouldn't mind if I said that Natsu's training was for "comedic" or "plot" purposes would you? Or that all of Natsu's feats (such as Ikusatsunagi) were comedic plot?

No, what I meant was that you were right regarding what happened in the chapter and the events that unfolded. Erza still couldn't kill Ajeel.

No, there are plenty of other arcs that show Fairy Tail killing their enemies. Not just Tartaros. FT taking Brandish captive is for plot reasons that we don't know of yet. However, it will be revealed in future chapters.

Erza cutting Ajeel's head off would kill him. Name the "plenty of other arcs" where FT has killed people. And once again the "plot" excuse.

For the last time, I didn't say equal once. Go ahead and search my post. I said they are similar in the nature of their powers which is not deniable.

Define "similar", and what is the "nature of their powers"?

I feel like at this point I should just post my power rankings for all the main characters and villain groups.