Discussion Estimating Characters PL

[MrSchmitty7]

1.5 Purge is a magic that comes from the Goddesses, so it counts as ''ark'' - the strongest magic and pretty much the only counter to the Demons, hence why his other magical abilities even with his life force wouldn't have affected Fraudrin, because ''Ark'' is obviously a stronger type of magic than anything the humans couild produce. But even with ''ark'' (purge), he needed to sacrifice his life in order to gap the strength between them.

Same reason with Hendrickson.

Still a mistake that might have resulted in her demise.

Being the daughter does have some relevance. It means you have potential to be the strongest and have possibly inherited abilities that are exclusive to you (e.g Let There Be Light is probably something that is exclusive to Elizabeth) - this is something every other Goddess doesn't have, not even someone like the Four Archangels. Its more than a coincidence that the strongest demons in the series are also the sons of the Demon King - they obviously inherited power directly from a God.

That still doesn’t change the fact that purge had the advantage. Regardless of the type it still stands that his regular magic couldn’t and wouldn’t be effective even if he poured his life force into it. One clearly had the advantage and that’s what I’m trying to say. Some magic works better than others. Especially purification when used to purify.

And while potential can be a component, Elizabeth has not been shown to have had the desire and training that the brothers have had.

Fact is Elizabeth didn’t attack their defenses like Ludoshel did. So of course she’d have an easier time.

 

[kkck]

Arthur commented that Cussack is on the same level as Zeldris.

So around 61k.Give or take 1000.

I think there is a very real chance that zeldris' and the master's PL is so large compared to arthur's that arthur simply can't tell them apart. Take matrona when she rescued diane. The sisn made the point that matrona could stand up to the commandments but then we learned that matrona's power is a paltry 7.6k. Something similar could easily be going on here.

 

[OtakuFreak]

Arthur commented that Cussack is on the same level as Zeldris.

So around 61k.Give or take 1000.

Was Arthur referencing Zeldris with or without the Demon King's magic?

That still doesn’t change the fact that purge had the advantage. Regardless of the type it still stands that his regular magic couldn’t and wouldn’t be effective even if he poured his life force into it. One clearly had the advantage and that’s what I’m trying to say. Some magic works better than others. Especially purification when used to purify.

And while potential can be a component, Elizabeth has not been shown to have had the desire and training that the brothers have had.

Fact is Elizabeth didn’t attack their defenses like Ludoshel did. So of course she’d have an easier time.

Elizabeth and Ludoshel used the same type of magic power - ''ark''. It doesn't matter whether or not they used purification or offensive ability - you still need the raw magical power in order to affect the enemy (meaning you need somewhere the same PL) , that's clearly established by Zaratras being significantly weaker than Fraudrin and being unable to purify him with the same type of magic unless he added a special circumstance in. If the whole ''well purification made it easier for Elizabeth'' is true then I don't see why Zaratras failed utterly to purify Fraudrin, if the difference was smaller than supposedly ''20k Goddess Elizabeth'' (you suggested this) to Indura.

It's quite obvious that in this series, if you lack power (or PL) then you will be unable to affect opponents. Escanor at 114k couldn't affect 142k Meliodas. Meliodas at 11k couldn't affect Galand at 26k. See what I mean? Ludoshel's magic didn't affect Indura whilst hers did. I mean, if you even look at how the spell was depicted in the manga, it is shown to be incredibly powerful - illuminating the battlefield, blinding Indura, making Elizabeth grow ''light'' wings, drills of light that pushed them back, made them struggle immensely. Then you add in Ludoshel wanting her help above the other Archangels, she clearly has considerable magic power.

Even if you refute that, you can't deny that she is still one of the highest-tiered Goddesses as she as 2 pairs of wings that put are at a minimum Archangel class.

 

[Bøjan]

@OtakuFreak
I think you gave people enough proof that goddess Elizabeth is really above the Archangels in terms of magic power, and i agree with you too even though i'm a Meliodas fan.This is already one proof (i'm too lazy to search around for more).It seems that other people will actually acknowledge that when Nakaba will literally make one of the characters say that she is powerful, and not just through feats alone.

 

[Demonspeed]

Arthu's comment must simply mean that both are above 60K.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Was Arthur referencing Zeldris with or without the Demon King's magic?



Elizabeth and Ludoshel used the same type of magic power - ''ark''. It doesn't matter whether or not they used purification or offensive ability - you still need the raw magical power in order to affect the enemy (meaning you need somewhere the same PL) , that's clearly established by Zaratras being significantly weaker than Fraudrin and being unable to purify him with the same type of magic unless he added a special circumstance in. If the whole ''well purification made it easier for Elizabeth'' is true then I don't see why Zaratras failed utterly to purify Fraudrin, if the difference was smaller than supposedly ''20k Goddess Elizabeth'' (you suggested this) to Indura.

It's quite obvious that in this series, if you lack power (or PL) then you will be unable to affect opponents. Escanor at 114k couldn't affect 142k Meliodas. Meliodas at 11k couldn't affect Galand at 26k. See what I mean? Ludoshel's magic didn't affect Indura whilst hers did. I mean, if you even look at how the spell was depicted in the manga, it is shown to be incredibly powerful - illuminating the battlefield, blinding Indura, making Elizabeth grow ''light'' wings, drills of light that pushed them back, made them struggle immensely. Then you add in Ludoshel wanting her help above the other Archangels, she clearly has considerable magic power.

Even if you refute that, you can't deny that she is still one of the highest-tiered Goddesses as she as 2 pairs of wings that put are at a minimum Archangel class.

Again Meliodas in his Beserk state was unable to have his demonic magic damage Galand. But Gowther who is only 3,100 was able to have his magic affect him. This manga has shown time and time again that magics that do not try to break through the defenses have a much easier time affecting others. If we go by your claims then Gowther has stronger magic than Diane, King, and Beserker Mel since only his was enough to beat Galand.

Yes, Elizabeth and Ludoshel both used ark, but Ludoshel tried attacking the body while Elizabeth's attack just bypassed that and went straight for their darkness. The two aren't comparable.

And we've seen instances of people hurting others while being much weaker. Ban easily snapped Melascula's neck even though she's in the 30,000s.

Attacks don't work the same way across the board. Some target physical bodies, others target internal aspects, others target spirit. You're trying to make it seem like they all attack the same thing.

Elizabeth's attack should've had an easier time working because this manga has shown since Gowther's debut that attacks that are able to bypass the defenses work much better against defenses. That's why Dreyfus noted that Gowther probably has the most dangerous magic of the sins. The only way to seemingly beat Gowther's magic is to have a high enough spirit stat.

 

[Kay3795]

Arthur commented that Cussack is on the same level as Zeldris.

So around 61k.Give or take 1000.

It's important to note when a character takes a fighting stance, he exudes more power that can be felt.
Meliodas can have a PL of 200000 right now (he probably does have around that atm) but appear to exude a power level of merely 50000 if he's not taking a fighting stance.

- Remember when Escanor went super Hulk mode (100000) vs Meliodas? Everyone felt his power & were completely astonished over it. Most probably thought Meliodas couldn't possibly stand up to Escanor's high-noon power based on the force they felt Escanor emit (even Merlin expressed that same thing)...yet the reality was that Meliodas PL was substantially higher than Escanor & he shown just that as he proceeded to utterly trash Escanor like a fodder...In fact, 60+k Escanor in Meliodas eyes didn't appear to be any different from initial 100+k Escanor. He only acknowledged that his tone (voice/octave) changed (became deeper).

- Another example of this is Escanor vs Izraf. Escanor actually demonstrated his 60+k - 100+k during his fight with the vampire King Izraf (5000), yet that power level wasn't felt until Escanor took a fighting stance & uttered the word "boom".

Arthur felt Zeldris power & compared it to Cucask. Zeldris wasn't taking a fighting stance so his power level probably didn't feel like 61000 in Arthur's eyes. Cusack also wasn't taking a fighting stance, so he's not particularly emitting power needlessly. Moreover, Zeldris has the ability to take his PL to another level with phase 2 Demon Mark

Spoiler

which would take him well beyond 61000. He can also stack the Demon King's magic to take him even higher, so Zeldris doesn't cap at 61000... I think around 100000.

Cusack was expressed to be equal to Chandler (now bear in mind both were revived being severely weakened by the Coffin of Eternal Darkness Seal). Chandler probably has a base of around 60k or a little above. He can increase that again by transforming. If Cusack is his equal then you can bet Cusack will also transform when he encounters something warranting a transformation.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

It's important to note when a character takes a fighting stance, he exudes more power that can be felt.
Meliodas can have a PL of 200000 right now (he probably does have around that atm) but appear to exude a power level of merely 50000 if he's not taking a fighting stance.

- Remember when Escanor went super Hulk mode (100000) vs Meliodas? Everyone felt his power & were completely astonished over it. Most probably thought Meliodas couldn't possibly stand up to Escanor's high-noon power based on the force they felt Escanor emit (even Merlin expressed that same thing)...yet the reality was that Meliodas PL was substantially higher than Escanor & he shown just that as he proceeded to utterly trash Escanor like a fodder...In fact, 60+k Escanor in Meliodas eyes didn't appear to be any different from initial 100+k Escanor. He only acknowledged that his tone (voice) changed (became deeper).

- Another example of this is Escanor vs Izraf. Escanor actually demonstrated his 60+k - 100+k during his fight with the vampire King Izraf (5000), yet that power level wasn't felt until Escanor took a fighting stance & uttered the word "boom".

Arthur felt Zeldris power & compared it to Cucask. Zeldris wasn't taking a fighting stance so his power level probably didn't feel like 61000 in Arthur's eyes. Cusack also wasn't taking a fighting stance, so he's not particularly emitting power needlessly. Moreover, Zeldris has the ability to take his PL to another level with phase 2 Demon Mark

Spoiler

which would take him well beyond 61000. He can also stack the Demon King's magic to take him even higher, so Zeldris doesn't cap at 61000... I think around 100000.

Cusack was expressed to be equal to Chandler (now bear in mind both were revived being severely weakened by the Coffin of Eternal Darkness Seal). Chandler probably has a base of around 60k or a little above. He can increase that again by transforming. If Cusack is his equal then you can bet Cusack will also transform when he encounters something warranting a transformation.

Wait what?

It was early morning when Escanor killed Izraf. Are you suggesting that Escanor fought Izraf for 5 hours straight while standing still for the most part? Also he's been stated to have around 50,000 when its close to 11 so how could he have 60K in the early morning? It's generally understood that nakaba just misdrew Izraf's size. The only time Escanor is taller than him is in his peak according to the databook, and even then he's only taller by a few inches.

 

[Kay3795]

Wait what?

It was early morning when Escanor killed Izraf. Are you suggesting that Escanor fought Izraf for 5 hours straight while standing still for the most part? Also he's been stated to have around 50,000 when its close to 11 so how could he have 60K in the early morning? It's generally understood that nakaba just misdrew Izraf's size. The only time Escanor is taller than him is in his peak according to the databook, and even then he's only taller by a few inches.

Times HAVE to change specifically for Escanor in order for him to be any relevant (plot convenience). Vampire King Izraf was ABSOLUTELY HUGE!!

Spoiler

Literally the size of a Goliath lol. He makes morning Escanor (who isn't all that tall compared to the big tall ones btw, just much taller than his tiny little night-self) look like a stripling throughout all the panels he appeared in. Escanor became taller and taller, until he was just as tall.

For Escanor to rapidly (conveniently) change so fast such that he became as tall as Izraf meant that time fast-forward for him to become his nigh-noon, almost noon self.

Spoiler

https://www.bing.com/images/search?...05360800492&selectedIndex=3&ipm=vs&ajaxhist=0]

That being said, this wasn't my main point. My point was to emphasise the difference (in PL felt) when one takes a fighting stance or doesn't.

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Times HAVE to change specifically for Escanor in order for him to be any relevant (plot convenience). Vampire King Izraf was ABSOLUTELY HUGE!!

Spoiler

Literally the size of a Goliath lol. He makes morning Escanor (who isn't all that tall compared to the big tall ones btw, just much taller than his tiny little night-self) look like a stripling throughout all the panels he appeared in. Escanor became taller and taller, until he was just as tall.

For Escanor to rapidly (conveniently) change so fast such that he became as tall as Izraf meant that time fast-forward for him to become his nigh-noon, almost noon self.

Spoiler

https://www.bing.com/images/search?...05360800492&selectedIndex=3&ipm=vs&ajaxhist=0]

That being said, this wasn't my main point. My point was to emphasise the difference (in PL felt) when one takes a fighting stance or doesn't.

Or
It was an artistic mistake because Nakaba is human and it literally makes no sense for Escanor to fight someone for 5 hours straight. While standing still for the most part. Plus Escanor literally burned away the guy’s body, he’s supposed to be smaller after that.

Fact is Escanor’s peak height is 10’8 at noon
Izraf is 10’3

According to you Escanor must’ve fought Izraf from about 7:00 to Noon

Also literally two pages before that Escanor is as tall as Izraf’s chin and this is when Izraf launches an attack on Escanor and then Escanor dispels it. So unless Escanor stood in the attack for a few hours, no he didn’t power up

 

[Kay3795]

Or
It was an artistic mistake because Nakaba is human and it literally makes no sense for Escanor to fight someone for 5 hours straight. While standing still for the most part. Plus Escanor literally burned away the guy’s body, he’s supposed to be smaller after that.

Fact is Escanor’s peak height is 10’8 at noon
Izraf is 10’3

According to you Escanor must’ve fought Izraf from about 7:00 to Noon

Or time HAS to move fast for Escanor's sake, thus for plot convenience sake, logic (or the sense you're talking about) is thrown out to the window.

Nah Man, not "according to me...". That's stupid! I'm pretty sure you have eyes to see. Look at the panels (in fact read the entire chapter to see that Izraf consistently towered above Escanor until nigh-noon form), not me. He consistently towered him, so it wasn't an artist mistake.

The same thing happened with Meliodas vs Escanor btw. About 1 hr was fast-forwarded for Escanor's sake because plot takes pre-eminence over logic, every time.

If you can't accept that & still want to make "sense" of how Izraf & nigh-noon Escanor fought, just imagine that they had a banter battle for 4 hours or something lol. Escanor was attacking with his poems & stuff, while Izraf was like "you insolent, foolish human, how dare you....." until Escanor was really to throwdown.... then "boom".

 

[MrSchmitty7]

Or time HAS to move fast for Escanor's sake, thus for plot convenience sake, logic (or the sense you're talking about) is thrown out to the window.

Nah Man, not "according to me...". That's stupid! I'm pretty sure you have eyes to see. Look at the panels (in fact read the entire chapter to see that Izraf consistently towered above Escanor until nigh-noon form), not me. He consistently towered him, so it wasn't an artist mistake.

The same thing happened with Meliodas vs Escanor btw. About 1 hr was fast-forwarded for Escanor's sake because plot takes pre-eminence over logic, every time.

If you can't accept that & still want to make "sense" of how Izraf & nigh-noon Escanor fought, just imagine that they had a banter battle for 4 hours or something lol. Escanor was attacking with his poems & stuff, while Izraf was like "you insolent, foolish human, how dare you....." until Escanor was really to throwdown.... then "boom".

Time doesn’t have to move for Escanor’s sake, the dude only had a power level of 5,000. Why would Nakaba speed up time to beat a person with 5,000?

I literally showed you how Escanor was up to Izraf’s chin, then immediately after he dispelled Izraf’s attack Izraf is now 18 feet tall? That’s an inconsistency. Not to mention it’s two pages before the panel you posted.

You’re entire argument runs around the fact that Nakaba needed to speed up time for a fodder character which makes no sense. Even at “high noon” Izraf was the same size as Escanor in spite of the fact that Escanor should be 6 inches taller. But wait, then a second later Escanor is taller? Is there a high noon part 2?!? Does Escanor have a peak on top of his peak height? Is he wearing high heels?

I mean what makes more sense?

Escanor fought a guy for 6 hours straight, while mainly standing still, and then he gains another peak height all while Izraf grows to about 18 feet even though he was oringally only a few inches taller and then Merlin and Gowther waited for those 6 hours just to knock Escanor out when they could’ve been helping earlier

Or

Nakaba made a writing mistake because he’s human.

Lastly at high noon Escanor’s skin begins to turn to flames and his eyes glow with suns. Or did you forget?

 

[afromarco005]

Elizabeth 130k pl 125k magic 4910 spirit and 90 strenght: that would be at the max of her ability with wings and all

Ludociel: 45k, 40k magic 4400 spirit and 100 strenght in margareth body
55k in his original body with +10k to his strenght seeing that he is based on a fast magical/mixed battle style he must be over 10k stenght with his original body

Tarmiel: 40kPl 30k strenght 5k magic 5k spirit he was not super impressive other than his regeneration powers his faces were bashed easily by derieri

Sariel: 50k PL 45k magic, 4500 spirit and 500 strenght he seems to be a magical based character he never hit physically during the flashback and just uses his magic/grace tornado to atteck and defend

The One Escanor Sama: immesurable power level his PL cant be measured for one minute (he is the only one to decide it)praise the sun.

Non demon Dolor 25k
Non demon gloxinia 30k

New Hendy: 6660Pl 2994 magic 3000 strenght 666 spirit

Dreyfus 5k
Slader 2k

Arthur post excalibur 54k 50k magic 2k strenght 2k spirit
Mama hawk 40k: magic 20k strenght 19k spirit 1k

Golgus post demon invasion 2kpl

Pleiades post demon invasion: deathpierce 6k
Arrow boy 3k
Muscle swordwan 4k
Deldrey 3k

Nerobasta 9k PL 8k magic 500 strenght 500 spirit

Jericho pl 2k, best girl o meter 900k

 

[Bøjan]

Non demon Dolor 25k
Non demon gloxinia 30k

Woah a commandment giving someone 25k-30k boost in PL? So that means Zeldris,Estarossa and all other members of the 10 Commandments have a PL (without their commandments) 25k-30k under what they have now? While Meliodas has 142.000 without one. Umm that would make the 10 Commandments way below the SDS's level, i don't think they're that weak.Actually i don't think a commandment gives you a boost in PL at all, but you actually get a hax ability depending on your commandment.

 

[afromarco005]

Woah a commandment giving someone 25k-30k boost in PL? So that means Zeldris,Estarossa and all other members of the 10 Commandments have a PL (without their commandments) 25k-30k under what they have now? While Meliodas has 142.000 without one. Umm that would make the 10 Commandments way below the SDS's level, i don't think they're that weak.Actually i don't think a commandment gives you a boost in PL at all, but you actually get a hax ability depending on your commandment.

Why would the commandements not give a boost in Pl they are literally a tenth of half of the demon king's power

 

[Bøjan]

Why would the commandements not give a boost in Pl they are literally a tenth of half of the demon king's power

Probably because they are made specifically to be like that (curses activating depending on the situation), on the other hand if they are consumed like Meliodas wants to do in the future, then they should get a PL boost in my opinion.

 

[sobreno]

Elizabeth 130k pl 125k magic 4910 spirit and 90 strenght: that would be at the max of her ability with wings and all

Ludociel: 45k, 40k magic 4400 spirit and 100 strenght in margareth body
55k in his original body with +10k to his strenght seeing that he is based on a fast magical/mixed battle style he must be over 10k stenght with his original body

Tarmiel: 40kPl 30k strenght 5k magic 5k spirit he was not super impressive other than his regeneration powers his faces were bashed easily by derieri

Sariel: 50k PL 45k magic, 4500 spirit and 500 strenght he seems to be a magical based character he never hit physically during the flashback and just uses his magic/grace tornado to atteck and defend

The One Escanor Sama: immesurable power level his PL cant be measured for one minute (he is the only one to decide it)praise the sun.

Non demon Dolor 25k
Non demon gloxinia 30k

New Hendy: 6660Pl 2994 magic 3000 strenght 666 spirit

Dreyfus 5k
Slader 2k

Arthur post excalibur 54k 50k magic 2k strenght 2k spirit
Mama hawk 40k: magic 20k strenght 19k spirit 1k

Golgus post demon invasion 2kpl

Pleiades post demon invasion: deathpierce 6k
Arrow boy 3k
Muscle swordwan 4k
Deldrey 3k

Nerobasta 9k PL 8k magic 500 strenght 500 spirit

Jericho pl 2k, best girl o meter 900k

Lol at Elizabeth being over 100K, let alone stronger than an Archangel, Zeldoris, Estarossa, Cusack, Chandler and Escanor at 11 A.M. If her magic was that high, the 10 commandments will be scared like little cats because magic power is precisely what people sense first in the individual. And this isn't Dragon Ball where you can hide your magic power level or power levels in general like Goku and the others by will.

King would have noticed that tremendous level of magic as well, yet, zero statement about that in the flashback lol.

Escanor's power level is immeasurable in the sense that it isn't fixed like 99% of the character in the manga, it fluctuates over time.
The One is just unquantifiably above than 142K Assault mode Meliodas for now. He must be 160K or 180K at max, which is enough to one-shot or solo a 142K character.

 

[OtakuFreak]

@Bojan @afromarco005

As for the commandments, two things could happen

1) The commandments do grant the user, a PL that is in accordance to 5% of the Demon King's power. So if 20k was 5% of his power (hypothetically), then a user with a commandment would have an additional 20k to their PL, and would lose that power when the commandment is lost. So, for example Gloxinia's PL after losing the commandment would be 30k, instead of 50k. This idea would be supported by the fact that Zeldoris told Dolor he could grant them ''power'' even though the commandments was the only thing they received, and not any powers of darkness. Then again, I don't like this idea as it basically means the top tier elite of the demon clan are reliant on the Demon King's power - which seems to be a reoccurring theme in this manga. I would like some individuality, especially for Zeldoris and Estarossa.

2) The commandments only grant the curse ability and not the 5% portion of the Demon King's power - since that power itself ( the 5%) was entirely used to make the ability, it's not as if they have the 5% raw power of the Demon King, but merely just the ability that was formed out of that power. I think this idea is the correct one, since I believe once Meliodas obtains all the commandments (or anyone) and absorbs them, will consequently turn them back to their original form, which is pure magic power and hence will ascertain Demon King levels of power - and as a result, the commandments will no longer exist (just like pre-DK making them).So basically, the commandment gives you a ''hax'' ability, but not the 5% and once you collect all 10 and put them back together, you get the 50% of the DK's power but the commandment ability is gone.

Hopefully that makes sense.

 

[afromarco005]

Another point going in my direction is that the demon king split his power in half at first but was scared that it would make his servant too strong thus split it in 10 instead to grant power to his subordinates. To me its a proof that the decrees are giving their user sttenght and I assume given galan PL that it would be a boost in percentage rather than a fixed number otherwise galan would be too weak to be an elite I think

 

[Okrigar]

Elizabeth 130k pl 125k magic 4910 spirit and 90 strenght: that would be at the max of her ability with wings and all

Ludociel: 45k, 40k magic 4400 spirit and 100 strenght in margareth body
55k in his original body with +10k to his strenght seeing that he is based on a fast magical/mixed battle style he must be over 10k stenght with his original body

Tarmiel: 40kPl 30k strenght 5k magic 5k spirit he was not super impressive other than his regeneration powers his faces were bashed easily by derieri

Sariel: 50k PL 45k magic, 4500 spirit and 500 strenght he seems to be a magical based character he never hit physically during the flashback and just uses his magic/grace tornado to atteck and defend

The One Escanor Sama: immesurable power level his PL cant be measured for one minute (he is the only one to decide it)praise the sun.

Non demon Dolor 25k
Non demon gloxinia 30k

New Hendy: 6660Pl 2994 magic 3000 strenght 666 spirit

Dreyfus 5k
Slader 2k

Arthur post excalibur 54k 50k magic 2k strenght 2k spirit
Mama hawk 40k: magic 20k strenght 19k spirit 1k

Golgus post demon invasion 2kpl

Pleiades post demon invasion: deathpierce 6k
Arrow boy 3k
Muscle swordwan 4k
Deldrey 3k

Nerobasta 9k PL 8k magic 500 strenght 500 spirit

Jericho pl 2k, best girl o meter 900k

Funny that people now accept that Eli on her prime was a true powerhouse. Same thought some months ago would of gotten you flamed.

Just her activating her power against two Indura TC was enough to push them back, that alone should of been good enough of a sign.

She might be a mary sue so far character wise, but she can dish out a beating if she needs to.