Discussion Estimating Characters PL

Demonspeed

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He didn’t look that injured when he shot back up. You believe he was weakened to the extent that Merlin was able to incapacitate him with a quick shot attack? His natural defense dropped far enough? I would imagine that it takes some amount of recovery before someone would wake up.
He was severely injured and weakened and yes he was recovering, Merlin made him lose consciousness with Shock Stinger. If he had been in his normal state it would been useless against him. He took several of Escanor's Sunshine attacks in the Perfect Cube.
 

T25

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But she get horribly blitzed against Galand, he escaped even her teleportation range casually. It is clear in the manga.

It is the same thing lol. A character who overwhelmed another character thanks to his speed, she even tried to win some time by playing with words. ( aka saying a lie )

Playing with semantics isn't good and intelligent when the outcomes are clear from the start. ( like the extreme scenario that I presented to you, the lightspeed vs the snail one )
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Also what your statement encompasses doesn't matter, as long as the other side has an overwhelming speed in his pocket, he will blitz the hell out of the slower one, no question about that.

That is how fighting works, how physics works, how logic works.
I did not question a faster persons ability to outspeed someone slower. I questioned his apparent guarantee to win against anyone slower.
Galand was a lot faster than Merlin. If she had cast Perfect Cube on herself. Would he win?
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He was severely injured and weakened and yes he was recovering, Merlin made him lose consciousness with Shock Stinger. If he had been in his normal state it would been useless against him. He took several of Escanor's Sunshine attacks in the Perfect Cube.
So he needed to be at his then max in order to take her attack? To what degree was the severity of his weakness? Half of his PL is 70000 Could Merlin handle that? It must have been lower than that hm
 

sobreno

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I did not question a faster persons ability to outspeed someone slower. I questioned his apparent guarantee to win against anyone slower.
Galand was a lot faster than Merlin. If she had cast Perfect Cube on herself. Would he win?
You don't need to question something obvious, if she/he get outspeeded, how she/he gets the time to do anything at all? You are aware that you don't have time against someone far faster than you?

Yes, since in a fight, she wouldn't be able to have time for that one one vs one, Galand showed how ridiculous fast he was compared to her reaction speed.
Merlin's speed isn't that impressive at all, she has a Human level of physical strength, she got knocked out by a table when the sins fought Chandler lol.
 

T25

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How could I know this?
You implied he was weak enough to be knocked out by her. You also believe that she must be stronger than the initial strength she had. Strong enough for 30000. So my question is how do you figure that it was because he was weak that she was able incapacitate him?
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You don't need to question something obvious, if she/he get outspeeded, how she/he gets the time to do anything at all? You are aware that you don't have time against someone far faster than you?

Yes, since in a fight, she wouldn't be able to have time for that one one vs one, Galand showed how ridiculous fast he was compared to her reaction speed.
Merlin's speed isn't that impressive at all, she has a Human level of physical strength, she got knocked out by a table when the sins fought Chandler lol.
She had time to put Eli and Arthur in PC. She had time to snap her fingers. She had time while she stared into nothing before he returned.
By the way where do u believe Merlin places tier wise?
 

sobreno

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You implied he was weak enough to be knocked out by her. You also believe that she must be stronger than the initial strength she had. Strong enough for 30000. So my question is how do you figure that it was because he was weak that she was able incapacitate him?
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She had time to put Eli and Arthur in PC she had time while she stared into nothing before he returned.
By the way where do u believe Merlin places tier wise?
Because Galand wasn't focused on her? I said one vs one when Galand is focused on her, she wouldn't get the time to do anything at all lol.
All about Galand is speed and strength and luckily for him, his speed is enough to win against Merlin, Merlin herself knew that she had no chance, hence why she tried to negotiate with him.

Like Demonspeed said, the current sins tier: King, Diane, and Gowther.
 

Demonspeed

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You implied he was weak enough to be knocked out by her. You also believe that she must be stronger than the initial strength she had. Strong enough for 30000. So my question is how do you figure that it was because he was weak that she was able incapacitate him?
I didn't imply, it is clear that he was weakened enough, we have the pages stating that he was weakened, we saw him lose to Escanor and we saw him in the process of recovery. I am not Nakaba or some kind of calculator to know to what extent he was injured. But he was.
 

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Because Galand wasn't focused on her? I said one vs one when Galand is focused on her, she wouldn't get the time to do anything at all lol.
All about Galand is speed and strength and luckily for him, his speed is enough to win against Merlin, Merlin herself knew that she had no chance, hence why she tried to negotiate with him.

Like Demonspeed said, the current sins tier: King, Diane, and Gowther.
Arrogance plays no role in a fight huh? Where do u place Eli then?
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I didn't imply, it is clear that he was weakened enough, we have the pages stating that he was weakened, we saw him lose to Escanor and we saw him in the process of recovery. I am not Nakaba or some kind of calculator to know to what extent he was injured. But he was.
And pretty drastically huh. My issue was whether it was because of the versatility of spells and their effects or if it was because of the degree to which he was injured which did not look that significant(for him at the very least) It culminated in my questioning whether she has powered up or not
 

Demonspeed

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And pretty drastically huh. My issue was whether it was because of the versatility of spells and their effects or if it was because of the degree to which he was injured which did not look that significant(for him at the very least) It culminated in my questioning whether she has powered up or not
It's because he was injured of course. Shock Stinger doesn't seem particularly complex or powerful and AM Meliodas is much stronger.

When Merlin came and fought Gray Lord, she had powered up. She is at the same level ever since.
 

sobreno

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Arrogance plays no role in a fight huh? Where do u place Eli then?
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And pretty drastically huh. My issue was whether it was because of the versatility of spells and their effects or if it was because of the degree to which he was injured which did not look that significant(for him at the very least) It culminated in my questioning whether she has powered up or not
Eli is difficult to place because of her personality and unwillingness to fight seriously at all.

My opinion for her case is the same as commanderaxe.
 

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It's because he was injured of course. Shock Stinger doesn't seem particularly complex or powerful and AM Meliodas is much stronger.

When Merlin came and fought Gray Lord, she had powered up. She is at the same level ever since.
I don’t think there was any real indicator that she had powered up at that time. Gloxinia was shocked at escanors level of magic despite his being over 40000 points more than who he claimed escanor matched. Because of that, Merlin’s magic being called massive when at the same apparent level as escanor at that time does not seem as a clear indicator of an increase. Nor do we have any prior reference to use to see such a change from her
 

Demonspeed

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I don’t think there was any real indicator that she had powered up at that time. Gloxinia was shocked at escanors level of magic despite his being over 40000 points more than who he claimed escanor matched. Because of that, Merlin’s magic being called massive when at the same apparent level as escanor at that time does not seem as a clear indicator of an increase. Nor do we have any prior reference to use to see such a change from her
Gloxinia was shocked by the fact that Escanor, a Human, member of the weakest race had a magic power comparable to Estarossa, who has 3000 in Magic. While it is weak for a Demon, for a Human it's very impressive.

Fraudrin ran away from her and Gray Lord lost, she was clearly more powerful.

You think that her PL is still 4710?
 

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Eli is difficult to place because of her personality and unwillingness to fight seriously at all.

My opinion for her case is the same as commanderaxe.
Seems rational enough. Although I feel as though there is much more to her abilities.
 

sobreno

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Seems rational enough. Although I feel as though there is much more to her abilities.
If Nakaba decides to make her fighting for real, maybe.

But when you are a character that hates to fight in the first place, it will be difficult.
 

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Gloxinia was shocked by the fact that Escanor, a Human, member of the weakest race had a magic power comparable to Estarossa, who has 3000 in Magic. While it is weak for a Demon, for a Human it's very impressive.

Fraudrin ran away from her and Gray Lord lost, she was clearly more powerful.

You think that her PL is still 4710?
While that is rational I don’t know if that’s quite the case as the humans of their era were more powerful nor did it seem that was why they were surprised howerver that does not change the fact that is an inference you can draw from it.
They feared her rep. And by extension the magic power they feared she had as well as the fact she was impervious to them. Gray road is a combined entity that separated before they were caught. How had that separation impacted her power? Gray road magic was 26000: lost. Melascula was 31000 to which Merlin stated had melascula not transformed she could have done some damage because of her magic
As for Merlin’s PL i have no concrete opinion on whether it has changed
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If Nakaba decides to make her fighting for real, maybe.

But when you are a character that hates to fight in the first place, it will be difficult.
Eli has shown a signicant amount of magic prowess. 8 wings, incorporeal or not, and the force it realeased, drawn on a spread is not something I believe nakaba had intended for readers to disregard. As one of a mostly pacifitic nature, it would definitely impact her approach to combat. I do not feel that is a good reason to disregard her raw magic power. It’s because of her nature that she heals and does not wish to fight. But that also does not mean she doesn’t know how to fight. Her background is almost completely unkown. Im just curious to see what level she was at and may get to?
 

MrSchmitty7

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regarding the whole Grayroad fraudrin feat I’d like to bring up two things

1. Grayroad was divided, and we know that since she’s just a clump of gray demons it makes sense that she’d be beaten easily. Plus when she did split up the gray demons argued over which direction to go in, showing that being divided wasn’t their best bet.

2. Fraudrin in Dreyfus body is indirectly nerfed. Which is why Hendrickson thought he was able to take him on at first, but once his true form was revealed he got spooked out.
 

sobreno

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While that is rational I don’t know if that’s quite the case as the humans of their era were more powerful nor did it seem that was why they were surprised howerver that does not change the fact that is an inference you can draw from it.
They feared her rep. And by extension the magic power they feared she had as well as the fact she was impervious to them. Gray road is a combined entity that separated before they were caught. How had that separation impacted her power? Gray road magic was 26000: lost. Melascula was 31000 to which Merlin stated had melascula not transformed she could have done some damage because of her magic
As for Merlin’s PL i have no concrete opinion on whether it has changed
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Eli has shown a signicant amount of magic prowess. 8 wings, incorporeal or not, and the force it realeased, drawn on a spread is not something I believe nakaba had intended for readers to disregard. As one of a mostly pacifitic nature, it would definitely impact her approach to combat. I do not feel that is a good reason to disregard her raw magic power. It’s because of her nature that she heals and does not wish to fight. But that also does not mean she doesn’t know how to fight. Her background is almost completely unkown. Im just curious to see what level she was at and may get to?
She doesn't have 8 wings lmao, she only has 4 like others.

It is a good reason because she has shown anything battle related feat at all. Until she shows it, you are using a headcanon here. Nakaba never gave her a proper fight, she is always protected and play the damsel in distress.

You are just pushing another type of Elizabeth character here, she is written as being the antithesis of what a fighter is.
 

MrSchmitty7

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If Elizabeth had 8 wings, she wouldn’t struggle with two indura.
 

Demonspeed

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regarding the whole Grayroad fraudrin feat I’d like to bring up two things

1. Grayroad was divided, and we know that since she’s just a clump of gray demons it makes sense that she’d be beaten easily. Plus when she did split up the gray demons argued over which direction to go in, showing that being divided wasn’t their best bet.

2. Fraudrin in Dreyfus body is indirectly nerfed. Which is why Hendrickson thought he was able to take him on at first, but once his true form was revealed he got spooked out.
If Gray Lord split to run away then she obviously thought she had no chance. Weaker or not, I don't think Fraudrin would have been frightened like that if he knew he could have won using his true body.
 

MrSchmitty7

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If Gray Lord split to run away then she obviously thought she had no chance. Weaker or not, I don't think Fraudrin would have been frightened like that if he knew he could have won using his true body.
I think they were more or less frightened at Merlin’s legend then her feats themselves. From their standpoint they probably just know of her as a girl who deceived the two gods, so it makes sense that they’d overestimate her. Otherwise characters that don’t know who she is aren’t afraid of her, as chandler didn’t have a care in the world about her power
 
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