Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

[WoWfan]

Brandish was not intimidated by Neinharts power until he actually started to attack. It does apparently since the GMG that an attack dictates the strength of one’s MPL. Not saying they can’t, it is simple fact that as a summoner, Neinhart is physically weak. Brandish effected Natsu both willing, unwilling, conscious and unconscious. So even while unconscious he still has magic power. But again, it is not dependent on how strong someone is for Dimaria’s case, it is a matter of who can or can’t, besides Ultear only END could move in her world. Just like with Zeref’s curse, it is proven that even with Savage flames that can burn infinite magic, it is still not enough to kill Zeref, so no, that proves Igneel’s magic by strength won’t work. Only by it’s natural of dying. Hax basically. Even Natsu was injured as well and was not at his strongest, Gray’s magic is suppose to stop demons. Hax.

That would be a subject of interpretation if it magic or curse he was using, which one would be better suited for the other, depending

 

[Axiomus]

Brandish was more than intimidated. Her powers outright don't work on Neinhart. The fact that Brandish's powers were completely no sold by Neinharts alone is enough to tell us who is stronger. The fact that Brandish was intimidated by Neinhart's power after he attacked her is just the icing on the top. It should be noted that Brandish knows there are legit powerhouses like August, Irene, and Zeref among the Spriggan 12. So Neinhart's power isn't something she's never felt before. Igneel's power excited Zeref when he sensed it, even though Zeref has been around the Spriggan 12 and know what they can do.

There's no rule saying summoners must be physically weak. There's no reason to believe Neinhart is weaker than any of his fellow Spriggan 12, anymore than there is reason to believe Lucy is weaker than any mage around her level of magic power. In fact, Neinhart was enchanted by Irene to be stronger than your average Spriggan. He wasn't even using summoning magic when he fought Dimaria and Natsu, and come to think of it... Historia of the Dead isn't really a summoning magic. It's maker magic. Neinhart is making stuff from the memories of his opponents.

Brandish has only ever affected base Natsu and END's tumour. She has never affected FDK mode, Dragon Force, Igneel's power, or even base Natsu amped on PoF. Her powers don't even affect people as strpmg as Neinhart, whom Natsu soundly beat when he's serious. She's used her magic more times on the END tumor than on Natsu himself. When the END tumour grew too strong for her, she couldn't effect anymore. It stands to reason that when Natsu uses a mode that makes him stronger than Brandish, that she would no longer be able to affect him.

Dimaria implied with her statements that END was able to move through her time because it was stronger than her powers as a god. Natsu doesn't need END's power to surpass Dimaria's god soul. Natsu demonstrated that he was superior to a god when he destroyed the God of War. He also defeated FH Zeref, who also describes his power as that of a god. Zeref was several magnitudes above Dimaria in not only magical power, but also in the hax he could perform with his time magic. Zeref was already able to stop time in Tartarus, without Fairy Heart. With Fairy Heart, he is able to reverse time and could even control the Neo Eclipse. So really, Zeref had a more powerful magic and could manipulate time in more ways. Natsu defeated Zeref, who is in every way stronger than Dimaria. So why can't he beat Dimaria?

You do realize burning through infinite power is already monumental task right? Natsu had to use enough power to overpower an attack backed by an infinite supply of magic, burning time itself, and also hurt Zeref bad enough that he couldn't keep fighting. So what if Natsu doesn't have enough power leftover to actually kill Zeref? Even if Natsu didn't have enough power after all that to kill Zeref, what he has already done is still several magnitudes above any feat END has ever shown. Go read the END-Natsu vs Gray fight. Find me the panel with the attack (or series of attacks) that you think would overpower Fairy Heart, and then kill Zeref altogether. END's attacks can't even overpower Gray. I know you will say Gray has devil slaying, but again: Fairy Heart's infinite power is way more overpowered than any slayer advantage. Erza blocked both END and Gray's attacks with her bare hands, and Erza is not a slayer. Nor was she wearing her best armour. You say that Natsu couldn't kill Zeref with his final attack, but did END kill Dimaria? Did END actually kill anybody?

 

[WoWfan]

Brandish was talking, it wasn’t until Neinhart actually attacked that she was surprised by how powerful he became. Just like how Natsu’s Igneel arm was reacting and how he was intimidated himself by the presence of the Spriggans. Zeref was more surprised or curious than excited, he only should signs of hope for his death when he thought that Igneel’s magic was special that it would kill him. Actually it is common knowledge since Tenrou Island when Evergreen said that summoners are mostly weaklings. Neinhart is physically weaker than the other Spriggans. Lucy is known to be physically weak before, not a body builder like her friends, that is why she relies on Spirits to help her. Neinhart was still a summoner still, the enchantment he got only increased his magic, nothing said about his physical strength. Historia is technically summoning since is summons materialized feelings of the heart. That also means she cannot effect END even when he was in base mode and unconscious. No, Dimaria’s statement is quite clear that only END could have the power to surpass a god. Yes Natsu does need END to surpass Age Scratch, otherwise how would he be able to kill Zeref for his very reason for existing? That only shows that Igneel’s flames are special because they are dying flames that can work on godly powers. That is the only reason for that, it is not a matter of power alone. Defeat is not the same as killing, Natsu failed to kill Zeref without Igneel’s power and END which were the only means he had to do it. Not the same as killing overall, even overpowering infinity energy, Zeref is still alive and still immortal, that means that it is absolutely impossible to kill Zeref with strength alone. It does matter because that is the reason we have been going back and forth with this whole discussion. END could only Stalemate Gray because he was backed by Devil Slayer magic, his kryptonite. Give it time and END can pull off the same win and even kill Zeref with surpassing his godly immortality.

 

[Axiomus]

The fact that Neinhart can completely shut down Brandish is proof enough that he is beyond Brandish's level, and Natsu beat him with ease. My point was that team Natsu's reaction to Brandish and Ajeel is irrelevant to how strong they actually are. Brandish having zero reaction to a guy that completely outclasses her just further proves that point.

I've already gone over in detail why having the power of the dead is not special and how a lot of people actually have it. Again, there's a reason why Zeref wanted Natsu to be trained by Igneel. Igneel was a powerful dragon, right up there with Acnologia. If Natsu were to reach Igneel's level, he could kill Zeref. That was the plan. No part of that plan involved Natsu using the power of a dead person. If all it took was the power of a person that was dead, literally anyone could kill Zeref. Way back in Tenrou Island, we learn from Bluenote that you can steal magic off dead people. That's how he was planning to take Fairy Glitter from Cana.

Evergreen said that about Rustyrose...right before she got whooped by him. So, bad example. Also, Rustyrose is not really a summoner either. He's creating things from his imagination. Neither Neinhart nor Rustyrose are summoners anymore than Lyon is a summoner when he makes an ice dragon. Historia is molding magic, not summoning magic. Neinhart even says so as much when he says that his magic is life-make. Neinhart is not a summoner, and summoners aren't really weak. I'll say it again, Neinhart is just unfortunate enough to have faced Natsu and Jellal....arguably the MVPs of Ishgar's side.

Spoiler: My magic is Life Make

Dimaria never finished her sentence, but she would be wrong if she's saying only END could surpass the power of a god. Natsu defeated the god of war without END's power. He also defeated Zeref, who described the powers of Fairy Heart as that of a god. Zeref is stronger than Dimaria. Irene and August are stronger than Dimaria. Natsu doesn't need END's power to counter Chronos' time magic. He could burn Fairy Heart's time magic, which is wholly superior to Chronos' age seal.

You have to beat Zeref first to kill him. Natsu with his own power could beat Zeref in a fight, even if he can't outright kill Zeref. He could still overpower any attack Zeref throws his way, and render him unable to move. END will most likely lose the fight if he fights Zeref. If we put END-Natsu against FH Zeref, END-Natsu will not be able to tap into the same PoF that Natsu did to beat Zeref. Zeref is just going to rewind time and restore himself until END runs out of gas, and then skewer him.

Infinite power and time hax is more overpowered than a slayer advantage. END's power wasn't enough to break a stalemated against someone with a slayer hax. Natsu's own power beat someone with infinite magic and time hax.

 

[WoWfan]

By that logic Brandish should not have effected Natsu at all. And Brandish was not even one shotted by neinhart so it is not that big a gap. It is as they were outclassed at the time. And I have explained there is a difference between actually having a power that is specified with a specific nature and what isn’t, and the difference between dead and dying as one isn’t dead yet. You still have not answered Zeref should have had Igneel killed him back then to save him the trouble if it was a matter of power. Neinhart is basically treaty the same as Rustyrose who was treated to an extent a summoner which was thought that he was physically weak, despite not only being a summoner, which would still apply to Neinhart in this instant. No, Dimaria would not be wrong as there was nothing really to finish as it was very simple and logical to understand that END was suppose to surpass against god powers. Fairy Heart is not god power. END power is not fully developed yet and again Slayer hax stopped him. Beating is not the same as killing, you have to prove that

 

[Axiomus]

By what logic? I am saying that Brandish can't affect Natsu in his stronger modes or when he's amped in base mode on PoF, because Natsu is stronger than Brandish in those instances. Brandish magic can affect Natsu when they were playing around. He wanted her to. Same way Lucy can turn Erza into a fish if Erza lets her.

Igneel is dead, not dying. Dead. The way Igneel gave his power to Natsu is the exact same as the way SIlver gave his power to Gray. The exact same.

Zeref could very well have asked Igneel to kill him 400 years ago. Igneel could have simply refused, because that would end up killing Natsu. Igneel needed Natsu to go into the future to stop Acnologia. I'm pretty sure they worked out a deal. In exchange for Natsu helping Igneel go to the future to face Acnologia, Igneel would train Natsu to be strong enough to kill Zeref.

Again Neinhart is not a summoner. Rustyrose was not a summoner either. There is no property of summoning magic that makes your body weak, and even if there were....Neinhart does not have summoning magic. The Vanish brothers thought all mages were weak in the beginning of the series. They were clearly wrong. Evergreen called Rustyrose (not a summoner weak) right before Rustyrose proceeded to best Elfman in hand to hand combat. Rustyrose then proceeded to take hits from Freed and Bixlow, and even got the better of them....until he got sneak attacked by Elfman. Not a great example of a weak "summoner". Neinhart is as tough as any mage on his level, and he is above the level of your average Spriggan when enchanted.

Dimaria would be categorically refuted if she was trying to say only END could surpass her powers. Lots of people are stronger than both Dimaria and END. August, Irene, Zeref (both base and FH), Natsu himself, any of the parent dragons, Igneel, the 5 dragon gods, and Acnologia. In the case of Zeref with Fairy Heart, Zeref has time magic that is downright superior to Dimaria's. Zeref is both more powerful in terms of magic power and he can manipulate time more than Dimaria can. Zeref surpassed Dimaria's power. Natsu surpassed Zeref's power.

You can't kill somebody if they beat you up to a pulp. FH Zeref would beat END Natsu to a pulp. Zeref would reverse time to restore himself over and over again, and eventually outlast him with infinite power. The only way for END to prevent that is to burn away time and overpower Fairy Heart's infinite power, and END's power have no feats even remotely close to this level of performance. Natsu did this by tapping into his feelings of love for his guild. END can't do this because the demonic power consumed Natsu with hatred.

Seems to me the only thing going for END here is hyping Dimaria. Dimaria is not even the strongest of the Spriggan 12. I don't see her powers working on August or Irene. Certainly not on Zeref or Acnologia. Possibly not even on Erza or Gray.

 

[WoWfan]

You were saying that Natsu is stronger than Neinhart enchanted, so that would make him immune to brandish’s magic in base. Brandish can effect people voluntarily or not, conscious or not. Zeref said dying, not dead, I have the official translations volumes. There is the thing though, he could have found any other kid to do the same thing, to just hide and the do the same thing and kill the evil Zeref once and for all, save Igneel all the trouble. It is common knowledge in the magical world that summoners are physically weak, and Rustyrose does summon imagination monsters while Neinhart summons materialized feelings. It is not just the vanish brothers who thought that, they even killed mages who were physically weak as well. Again, it is not strength, it is a hax ability to surpass god powers via END, August instantaneously copies her powers. Zeref was obviously arrogant as the moment, that would mean he called Hades a god, because it was create by him. It is not about what two different Magic’s can or can’t do, it is what they are and how they had different effects. If his power is infinite and Natsu surpassed infinite and yet could not kill Zeref then your logic about Zeref’s immortality breaking from strength is debunked. Yes you can if you incinerate them with heat that distorts time and space, nothing would stop END from doing the same thing. Since his curse powers come from negative emotions. It would only be a matter of time. Even regular Natsu was killed before he could make a counter attack.

 

[Axiomus]

Natsu could very well resist Brandish's powers in base. His power level fluctuates depending on his emotions. He was in base mode when he defeated Zeref. If Natsu is amped up on PoF, like he undoubtedly was against Neinhart, I don't see either Brandish or Dimaria stopping him.

I have the Japanese raws. 死せる者の力 = Power of a dead person. In any case, Igneel is dead. Also, it would be far easier to get the power of a dying person than the power of a dead person. You don't even have to steal it from anyone. Just hurt yourself. By this logic, Juvia when she stabbed herself should have been able to kill Zeref.

For the last time, Neinhart is not a summoner. Historia of the Dead is maker magic just like Gray and Lyon's ice-make. It's literally described as life-make magic. Neinhart's historia is the exact same as Lyon's ice-make creatures. Are you going to call Lyon physically weak too?

What do you mean by surpassing god's powers? Surpassing just means to become stronger than. END is stronger than the powers of Dimaria's chronos soul. END is not a god slayer. He doesn't have power specially tailored to fight gods. Nor do actual god slayers have powers specially tailored to counter Dimaria's time control. Nor would it make sense for Zeref to design a demon specially tailored to counter Dimaria's time control.

How was Zeref arrogant? He literally had infinite magic, and was far stronger than any god we've physically seen. Zeref would have soloed Dimaria and all the god slayers, and this is arguably without Fairy Heart. It's not arrogance if you can back it up. There are really only two things that matter when it comes to Fairy Tail's magic system. (1) How powerful the source of magical power. (2) What it can do. Zeref is more powerful and can perform more haxed abilities than Chronos Soul can. There is no reason Natsu can't beat Dimaria when he can beat FH Zeref.

Hades does not have infinite magic power. Hades only helped Mavis' body generate Fairy Heart through experiments. Zeref created END, and END supposedly is stronger than a god. Why can't Hades create something that is also stronger than a god, especially when that something is by every standard stronger than END?

Ever think that Natsu simply used up all his power burning away Fairy Heart, that he simply didn't have enough power left over to kill Zeref? Overpowering a source of infinite power is a monumental task in and of itself, arguably more impressive than actually killing Zeref. Certainly more impressive than any of END's feats. END never managed to burn away time magic. He simply moved through Dimaria's time because he was stronger than Dimaria. If he could burn time magic, then he would burned away Dimaria's magic. Then he would have heard Lucy breathing. Instead, he punched Dimaria into a wall, who was conscious enough to keep the time freeze going.

Natsu was only able to beat Zeref with the power of feelings fueled by his love for his friends. END's power goes away as soon as Natsu stops raging. END mode will never be able to draw out the same emotions as Natsu did in his fight with Zeref. END's curse power is fueled by his negative emotions, and so is Zeref's black magic. The difference being Zeref has a lot more darkness in his heart than Natsu does, so Zeref's PoF would likely stomp Natsu's. Natsu was basically at maximum rage when he fought Gray. Still a stalemate, and still didn't do any major damage to Erza when she blocked it.

At this point, we are just going around in circles. So I propose this. If END doesn't show up in the 100 years quest and kills Touka, then let's agree that END can't kill Zeref. If END doesn't show up in the 100 years quest and beat one of the 5 dragon gods, then let's agree that Natsu's own powers is greater than that of END's. Fair enough?

 

[WoWfan]

Yes if power fluctuates, but not in this instance as any other form, not FDK mode or END can’t take her down. That was savage flames when he reached over the heat needed to distort time and space. Again, Neinhart was physically weak. Well official translations say otherwise and they say “Power of the dying”, because Unlike the two, Lyon doesn’t summon materialized beings from one’s heart. It is as it means in the story, to surpass the powers of a god, meaning to overcome a god power, just like he is created to overcome Zeref’s immortality. Zeref was arrrogant for calling FH the power of a god, which is not, which was created by a human, and no, if he as stronger than any god, he would overcome Ankhseram, Hades created FH, doesn’t mean he had to have to have it. Because it was never stated that Fairy Heart was stronger than a god, it was just the source of infinite magic, and unlike FH, END is designed for the purpose to overcome god’s powers. That still would not make any sense, besides Natsu still able to fight Acnologia, he would burn away Zeref as well as FH and he are one in the same, that would only show that even with infinite power overcoming infinite power, you cannot kill Zeref with just power, that is why he was afraid of Acnologia, though he could not die, Acno would torture him forever. He moved through time because that was END’s ability to do so. And since he was stronger than a spriggan even unconscious, it would stand to show that he could challenge Seref given time, END would still rage if there is nothing to stop his rage. But as Curse power, it could since Magic is not what was being used. Even so, Zeref’s magic would not be that level with Curse power of negative emotions. Though he was still transforming at the time when he fought Gray.

 

[Demon Hunter]

damn, reading all that reminds me how BAD Alvarez arc really was.

 

[WoWfan]

Anyway, because only a few can counter certain spells such END and Ultear with their has abilities, so the Spriggans are that strong, i would not be surprised that they can go toe to toe with other characters from other verses.

 

[Eisenfaust]

Top Top tier: Acnologia(with RT)>>>Acnologia(Without(RT)
Top tier: Zeref(with Fairy heart)=>August
Mid Top tier: Zeref(without FH)=>Irene/Natsu
Low Top tier: Erza,Gildarts,Laxus,GodSerena,Larcade, Gray, Jellal
High Tiers: Dimaria,Branidsh,Jacob,Ajeel,Invel,Bloodman,Wall, Neinhart, Gajeel and some other character.

 

[Axiomus]

Finally have time to reply

Yes if power fluctuates, but not in this instance as any other form, not FDK mode or END can’t take her down. That was savage flames when he reached over the heat needed to distort time and space. Again, Neinhart was physically weak. Well official translations say otherwise and they say “Power of the dying”, because Unlike the two, Lyon doesn’t summon materialized beings from one’s heart. It is as it means in the story, to surpass the powers of a god, meaning to overcome a god power, just like he is created to overcome Zeref’s immortality. Zeref was arrrogant for calling FH the power of a god, which is not, which was created by a human, and no, if he as stronger than any god, he would overcome Ankhseram, Hades created FH, doesn’t mean he had to have to have it. Because it was never stated that Fairy Heart was stronger than a god, it was just the source of infinite magic, and unlike FH, END is designed for the purpose to overcome god’s powers. That still would not make any sense, besides Natsu still able to fight Acnologia, he would burn away Zeref as well as FH and he are one in the same, that would only show that even with infinite power overcoming infinite power, you cannot kill Zeref with just power, that is why he was afraid of Acnologia, though he could not die, Acno would torture him forever. He moved through time because that was END’s ability to do so. And since he was stronger than a spriggan even unconscious, it would stand to show that he could challenge Seref given time, END would still rage if there is nothing to stop his rage. But as Curse power, it could since Magic is not what was being used. Even so, Zeref’s magic would not be that level with Curse power of negative emotions. Though he was still transforming at the time when he fought Gray.

1) Savage flames is overkill. Savage flames was able to burn through Fairy Heart's power so that Zeref couldn't use magic, and damage Zeref bad enough so that he couldn't move. This level of power is unnecessary to put down Dimaria. END just moved through Dimaria's time. He didn't actually manage to burn away Dimaria's magic, he just moved through her time because he was strong enough to. END didn't even hit Dimaria hard enough to knock her unconscious, and stop her magic from working. We know this because time was still stopped for Lucy. Natsu just needs to be equal or stronger than END's power to move in Dimaria's time.

2) Neinhart was never stated to be physically weak. Nor was he a summoner. Nor are summoners actually weak. This argument has no legs. The only reason people thought Neinhart was weak was because he went down easily to Natsu and Jellal. A misguided notion, considering how OP Jellal and Natsu have proven themselves to be. Jellal put up a hell of a fight against Acnologia, both dragon and human. Natsu has proven himself to be the strongest on Ishgar's side.

3) END was created by a human as well, and END is stronger than a god. So you can't use that excuse to say that FH cannot be stronger than a god just because it was created by a human. Infact, Fairy Heart is stronger than END by a significant margin. END doesn't have infinite power, unlike Fairy Heart. Besides, END was never designed to beat a god. It was designed to kill Zeref, and Zeref is not a god.

4) Again, it's not arrogance if you can back it up. Zeref calls Fairy Heart the power of a god, because it can do everything a god can. In fact, Fairy Heart's power is greater than some gods. It is certainly more powerful than the god of war, Ikusatsunagi. More importantly, it's more powerful than Dimaria's Chronos takeover, which is really the only thing that matters here. Fairy Heart's time magic is simply on a higher level than Chronos' powers. All Dimaria can do with her time magic is stop time, something that Zeref can do even without Fairy Heart. Fairy Heart lets Zeref reverse the flow of time even when his body is destroyed. More than that, Fairy Heart gave Zeref control over the rift in time, a whole dimension filled with enough time magic to destroy the world. Fairy Heart is superior to Chronos takeover in both quantity and quality. Quantity, in the amount of raw magic power it possesses. Quality, in the type of abilities it has access to.

5) Being stronger than a Spriggan doesn't mean being stronger than Zeref. Zeref is above his Spriggans, maybe with the exception of August and Irene when Zeref is in his base form. With Fairy Heart, Zeref is above everyone but Acnologia and Natsu. END might be stronger than a Spriggan, but so are Gray and Erza. So are Laxus, Gildarts, Jellal, Gajeel, and Sting. The fact of the matter was END was stalemated by a wounded Gray, who is significantly less powerful than FH Zeref. Both END and Gray had their attacks blocked by Erza, who is also significantly less durable than just base Zeref. It seems to me the argument for END is more about what it could have been, rather than what we've actually seen from him. Even then, I could argue that if END's power had kept developing....it woulda just killed Natsu.

 

[WoWfan]

Savage flame is does not qualify as overkill if it cannot kill an immortal being with infinite power. So by that logic strength is not a factor to kill Zeref, but as a strong enough ability to kill an immortal being. No, if you read closely, END’s power is to surpass God powers, that is why he can move in stoped time and how he can kill Zeref. Neinhart is rather physically weak, as proof when Brandish could effect Natsu who was physically stronger than Neinhart, yet could not be effected when his magic is greater than hers. And it is common logic that summoners are physically weak like Neinhart. Yet that human has Godly aspects to him while Hades was not, he was just talented in magic. END can just power up to same level as Savage Flames with enough emotional power up like regular Natsu did, only difference is that END can kill Zeref with his ability to surpass the God curse, provided he doesn’t get downed like regular Natsu did and have to be saved by Lucy. It is pure arrogance, Zeref has no logical research to state that it was created by a god or godly being. It was created by a man and nothing more. Being more powerful is not the same as having the abilities of an actual god. Prove is that even with infinite power Natsu still could not end Zeref’s life yet was killed by Mavis who was drastically weaker with her own curse. See the flaw in your logic? No, Zeref just had the means to influence the rift in time, he did not actually control it until he stepped through the doors. Again, Gray was a natural weakness to END like an unstoppable force trying to move an immovable object, it was not a matter of strength (despite both of them being weakened) it was a matter of abilities, and END was sorely mismatched against Gray’s DSM. If it did develope, he would die by killing Zeref, as that would have been the end result. Natsu would have died from his indecision to be either a Dragon or Demon, he would not die from one or the other

 

[LaGOAT]

Bro ur taking dimaria words this too literal as if she is an actual all mighty god herself. 2. The gods in the FT verse were not impressive and especially when the god slayers are not even that powerful to begin with. We all know that dragons are the gods of the FT verse. 2.END going thru time is an impressive feat but it just means any1 with higher MP can go thru it too etc Irene August gildarts laxus etc 3.by ur logic i could argue that lacade could have beaten acno base on his abilites it affect almost everybody (including zeref) 3.u till haven’t given any feats/proof that END is that powerful enough to kill zeref ur just using dimaria words to justify ur arguement which is less creditable than zeref. 4.u should know that POF natsu is the strongest natsu we seen in the series once natsu yells nakama it’s over for the antagonist no matter how powerful he is.

 

[WoWfan]

No, it is chronos who is the god. Even God Slayer magic begs to differ as they are by ability stronger than Dragon Slayer magic because their elements are prefix to be greater than other forms of their elemental types. Dragons are only the main focus of the series, that does not make them the strongest in terms of as a whole. The Spriggans are stronger than most dragons. No, that means END has the ability to move through time because of his ability to surpass god abilities, Dimaria made that clear. There is no proof of that actually the case when even Cherria who got third origin activated and was as strong or slightly stronger than Dimaria still needed to have Ultear there. That could very well be the case, but that was immediately disproven when Acnologia can eat magic in general. END’s curse is fueled by his rage and hatred, given enough time he can beat Zeref. PoF is not by any means an instant win, if that is the case then Erza should have defeated Jose when she is fighting for her friends but lost, same with many other cases

 

[Axiomus]

Savage flame is does not qualify as overkill if it cannot kill an immortal being with infinite power. So by that logic strength is not a factor to kill Zeref, but as a strong enough ability to kill an immortal being. No, if you read closely, END’s power is to surpass God powers, that is why he can move in stoped time and how he can kill Zeref. Neinhart is rather physically weak, as proof when Brandish could effect Natsu who was physically stronger than Neinhart, yet could not be effected when his magic is greater than hers. And it is common logic that summoners are physically weak like Neinhart. Yet that human has Godly aspects to him while Hades was not, he was just talented in magic. END can just power up to same level as Savage Flames with enough emotional power up like regular Natsu did, only difference is that END can kill Zeref with his ability to surpass the God curse, provided he doesn’t get downed like regular Natsu did and have to be saved by Lucy. It is pure arrogance, Zeref has no logical research to state that it was created by a god or godly being. It was created by a man and nothing more. Being more powerful is not the same as having the abilities of an actual god. Prove is that even with infinite power Natsu still could not end Zeref’s life yet was killed by Mavis who was drastically weaker with her own curse. See the flaw in your logic? No, Zeref just had the means to influence the rift in time, he did not actually control it until he stepped through the doors. Again, Gray was a natural weakness to END like an unstoppable force trying to move an immovable object, it was not a matter of strength (despite both of them being weakened) it was a matter of abilities, and END was sorely mismatched against Gray’s DSM. If it did develope, he would die by killing Zeref, as that would have been the end result. Natsu would have died from his indecision to be either a Dragon or Demon, he would not die from one or the other

1) Savage flames would be overkill for Dimaria, as she is neither immortal nor does she have infinite magic power. Natsu might not be strong enough to kill Zeref after overpowering Infinite Power. But Chronos is nowhere near Ankhseram's level, Dimaria is not on Zeref's level, Dimaria is not immortal, Dimaria does not have Fairy Heart's infinite power, and Dimaria can't do everything Fairy Heart can do. Fairy Heart has Chronos takeover wholly outclassed, and so savage flames would be overkill for beating Dimaria.

2) Strength is a factor in what can kill Zeref. Igneel's power was what allowed Natsu to kill Zeref. Before you pull the "power of the dying" card again, I'll say again a lot of people can access a dead person's powers. And no, there is no real difference between the power of the dying and the power of the dead. The Japanese raws, which is the actual original Japanese manga, says 死せる者の力. This literally translates to power of a dead person. Missed this point in my last post.

3) Natsu is stronger depending on his emotions. Natsu used magic to beat Neinhart. When Natsu is amped up on emotions, or using one of his stronger forms, he is stronger than Neinhart. He is actually stronger than END. No reason Brandish's magic would effect him when it doesn't END. That's the whole point.

4) END cannot power up via emotions to reach Savage Flame levels. Natsu was only able to reach savage flame levels because of the love that he had for his guild. Those emotions were what let him get to that level. END draws its curse power from the negative emotions that Natsu was feeling. Those negative emotions would have peaked at their all time high when he thought Lucy died. This was the version that fought Gray, and this version would lose to Zeref badly.

5) First of all, Hades didn't create Fairy Heart from scratch. He created Fairy Heart by experimenting on Mavis' body, who was every bit as cursed as Zeref was. Secondly, Zeref being cursed by Ankhseram has nothing to do with his ability to design stuff. Lastly, you don't need to have your powers come from a god to be stronger than one.

6) Zeref has all the abilities of Dimaria, and some abilities that even she does not possess. He had the ability to stop time in Tartarus, even without Fairy Heart. With Fairy Heart, he can reverse time even with his body destroyed. Dimaria can't control a whole dimension with enough time magic to destroy the world, and use that Dimension's magic to travel back in time 400 years. This isn't even factoring in that Fairy Heart's power level is way above Dimaria's.

7) Once again, Natsu had to burn out Fairy Heart's magic power before taking out Zeref. You do realize that Fairy Heart is literally infinite magic power, right? It would take a monumental amount of power to overpower Fairy Heart in the first place. Natsu's magic power is not infinite. He used so much power to burn out Fairy Heart's time magic that he didn't have enough left over to kill Zeref. Again, and I forgot to mention this in the last post, but his fight with Acnologia involved Wendy enchanting everyone's magic into Natsu for a power-up. Natsu on his own was fairly exhausted.

8) Fairy Heart's infinite power and control over time is greater than any slayer advantage. Even without a slayer advantage, Erza stopped both END and Gray's attacks. Base Zeref without a slayer advantage can tank Igneel-powered Natsu punching him through the solid rock off the side of a cliff. Fairy Heart Zeref is more than capable of overpowering END Natsu's attacks, and taking him out. Zeref didn't need devil slaying magic to no-diff Larcade, who was the strongest Etherious after END. He did so without FH.

9) The demon seed was fusing with his dragon seed, and he was dying because of this. His indecision between being a dragon or a demon was a misdirection. Both seeds grow when Natsu doubts his humanity, and it was the merging of the two seeds that was killing him.

 

[LaGOAT]

Ya bro U tweaking. God slayers are not even close compare to dragons slayers and that has been proven throughout the series Show me proof that gods are stronger than a dragons. 2. Lol this is laughable show me prove that spriggans are stronger than the parent dragons. Especially when dragons are extremely highly immune to magic. Dimaria god powers isnt even the strongest of the spriggans so yes her time power can be surpassed by other ppl not just END. How can acno eat lacade sleepy magic? it isn’t a caster spell. again where was proof that the anger END the stronger he gets? Erza casually stop END attack. Erza shouldn’t able to do that if END is that powerful Hiro uses POF when plot demands it to fill power holes. Show me proof that POF hasnt work in order to beat an opponent

 

[Axiomus]

Dragons are the strongest. A dragon like Acnologia can solo the world, including every god and godslayer. Dragons like Igneel are very close to his level, and the 5 dragon gods all supposedly rival him. Dragons on the level of the other parent dragons, can wipe out continental level weapon capable of taking out every mage in Ishgar. They too would solo every god or godslayer we've actually physically seen in the series. Then we have Irene, who rivals August as the strongest Spriggan. Name one god slayer stronger than....say Laxus. Even he is arguably stronger than Chelia, Orga, and Zancrow combined. Then factor in Gajeel or WSD Sting, who doesn't need to waste his entire lifetimes worth of power to beat a Spriggan. There are no Acnologia level god slayers. There are no god slayers stronger than say....Laxus.

If we were to make a top 20 list of the most powerful characters in Fairy Tail. At least 13 of those ranks would be occupied by dragons or dragon slayers. All of the top 10 would be dragons. Acnologia, Igneel, Dragon Gods 1-5, Grandine, Metalicana, Skiadrum, Weisslogia, Natsu, and Irene. These are just the really OP dragons and dragon slayers. This isn't really even counting the dragon slayers that are stronger than Spriggans in Laxus, WSD Sting, and Gajeel...who would compete with Erza and Gray for the next top 20-30ish ranks. Or Spriggan level dragon slayers like God Serena, who rivals someone who uses a god's power like Dimaria.

Natsu even has a tougher time fighting one of these new 5th gen dragon slayers than he did fighting Jacob or Neinhart. The new armour guy literally no sells the attack that KO'd Jacob.

 

[LaGOAT]

Dragons are the strongest. A dragon like Acnologia can solo the world, including every god and godslayer. Dragons like Igneel are very close to his level, and the 5 dragon gods all supposedly rival him. Dragons on the level of the other parent dragons, can wipe out continental level weapon capable of taking out every mage in Ishgar. They too would solo every god or godslayer we've actually physically seen in the series. Then we have Irene, who rivals August as the strongest Spriggan. Name one god slayer stronger than....say Laxus. Even he is arguably stronger than Chelia, Orga, and Zancrow combined. Then factor in Gajeel or WSD Sting, who doesn't need to waste his entire lifetimes worth of power to beat a Spriggan. There are no Acnologia level god slayers. There are no god slayers stronger than say....Laxus.

If we were to make a top 20 list of the most powerful characters in Fairy Tail. At least 18 of those ranks would be occupied by dragons or dragon slayers. All of the top 10 would be dragons. Acnologia, Igneel, Dragon Gods 1-5, Grandine, Metalicana, Skiadrum, Weisslogia, Natsu, and Irene. These are just the really OP dragons and dragon slayers. This isn't really even counting the dragon slayers that are stronger than Spriggans in Laxus, WSD Sting, and Gajeel...who would compete with Erza and Gray for the next top 20-30ish ranks. Or Spriggan level dragon slayers like God Serena, who rivals someone who uses a god's power like Dimaria.

Natsu even has a tougher time fighting one of these new 5th gen dragon slayers than he did fighting Jacob or Neinhart. The new armour guy literally no sells the attack that KO'd Jacob.

I agree with everything u said but 1 thing natsu has to used FDKM mode to beat jacob