Discussion Fairy Tail Power Ranking Thread

[Seven777]

I'm sorry. Invel did say everyone possess it, not everyone necessarily uses it. Sorry for the confusion. The most accurate wording is found here, as they do a word-for-word translation.

What I'm saying is that darkness is just negative emotions. Everyone has that inside of them. I imagine some people are better than others at turning those emotions into power. Though you don't necessarily need to be cursed by Ankhseram to do it, because that is exceedingly rare and would rule out Gray. Maybe Ankhseram's curse does provide an extra source of darkness, but that's pretty much something that applies exclusively to Zeref. Nor do you need to learn devil slaying magic, because that would rule out Zeref himself. Nor do you have to use a demon's curse power, because that would honestly rule out both Gray and Zeref.

I mean, they probably do. There's a bunch of evil guys running around. I imagine the guys at Avatar who use Black Magic use darkness too. Like I said, the dragon seeds are also darkness. It stands to reason that characters like Acnologia and Irene are using darkness too. Natsu when he was in END mode was almost certainly tapping into darkness (both from the seeds, and from the fact he thought Lucy was dead). I would not be at all surprised if Jellal was using darkness back when he was evil. As for Erza and Juvia using darkness? I mean, yeah. They felt negative emotions and got stronger. In Juvia's case, she did get significantly stronger. In Erza's case, she got stronger over feeling no emotion at all. However, whatever power she gets from negative emotions generally pales in comparison over her typical righteous nakama fuel. Darkness isn't as great of a source of strength for Erza and Juvia because they don't have as much negative stuff going on in their head. Well Erza might, but she finds a way to spin almost everything into a lesson about nakama.

Much appreciated.

I don't think it's a matter of being better than someone else. Gray and Zeref are the only ones who do it, which is why Invel linked them.
Using Darkness is exceedingly rare too in this manga. As for ruling out Gray, his DeS magic should fill the roll of Zeref's curse just fine, especially given the relation Invel made with it and Darkness. And Ankserhams curse providing an extra source of darkness, confirms that darkness can be in fact more than negative emotions. Given the clear difference in Gray's negative emotions and say, Jellal or Erza, I think it's pretty clear that there is more to Gray's darkness just like Zeref's, likely due to DeS magic, which is why Invel and Mashima takes specific note of it in Gray and link that to Zeref.


I dont see how the dragon seeds prove your point. Even if I were to take Igneel's meaning as actual darkness, that just distinguishes it from PoF even further. Dragon Seeds don't have anything to do with negative emotions or positive ones for that matter.
And that's exactly why I think it's different. Why did Gray get this whole darkness spiel if everyone else can, and has, used it? Why link him to Zeref? Why link it to DeS magic? Mashima feeling the need to specifically explain the phenomena that was about to happen to Gray, to me implies it's not an every day thing like anger PoF. I mean Mashima could have just had Invel kill Juvia and be done with it, Gray gets angry and beat Invel's ass, standard anger PoF that we've all seen before. Why have the dialogue explaining the function of darkness? Why have the monologue of "I need to make him unleash the darkness hidden inside him"? That's not normal.

 

[GL_Nova]

Historia spriggans are not country level. Barely beat Rogue and Minerva lmao


Cana is not Country level :/

The Historia Spriggan were weakened, but still able to stand up to Mages like Minerva & Rogue. So he’s strong enough to create 3 small country characters effortlessly. An still stomp a country lvl character.

 

[Axiomus]

DeS magic was never linked specifically to darkness. Not directly anyways. It eats away at the user's mind, which may help lead them to darkness. But not necessarily. Besides, that's not a property of the magic itself being darkness. It's a side effect on the mind. I mean, the reason Gray has all this darkness was because of the stuff that went down with Deliora, and later Ultear and Silver. It didn't just pop up when he learned devil slaying magic.

Even if Ankhseram's curse is an alternate source of darkness, it's still pretty much exclusive to Zeref. It's not like Gray is turning his curse (which we don't even know he has) into darkness. What happened for Gray was that he got emotional when he thought Juvia died, and that made him stronger. As for why Invel did what he did....Well, it was a way to make Gray feel bad. Gray would feel so much worse if Juvia died by his own hands. Could he have triggered Gray if he just killed Juvia? Sure. But it wouldn't be as good.

The reason Natsu's seeds were growing was because he doubted his humanity. That emotion of doubt was his darkness. When he got rid of that, the seeds broke.

 

[Seven777]

DeS magic was never linked specifically to darkness. Not directly anyways. It eats away at the user's mind, which may help lead them to darkness. But not necessarily. Besides, that's not a property of the magic itself being darkness. It's a side effect on the mind.

I mean, Ankhseram's curse is dependent on Zeref's emotions too. Even if Ankhseram's curse is an alternate source of darkness, it's still pretty much exclusive to Zeref. It's not like Gray is turning his curse (which we don't even know he has) into darkness. What happened for Gray was that he got emotional when he thought Juvia died, and that made him stronger. As for why Invel did what he did....Well, it was a way to make Gray feel bad. Gray would feel so much worse if Juvia died by his own hands. Could he have triggered Gray if he just killed Juvia? Sure. But it wouldn't be as good.

The reason Natsu's seeds were growing was because he doubted his humanity. That emotion of doubt was his darkness. When he got rid of that, the seeds broke.

True, not specifically, but it's enough of an implication for me, at least with everything else that's said about Darkness.

Ankhseram's curse being an alternate source of darkness opens up the possibility of many other sources of darkness, like DeS magic.
I'm not talking about Invel's actions, I'm talking about Invel's words. Why did Mashima go out of his way to have Invel explain what Darkness was to Gray? Why give Invel his little monlogue about needing Gray to unleash the Darkness within him? Mashima could have just had Invel go through with his Ice Lock plan and then just had Gray beat his ass afterwards, normal anger PoF like any other. Why give all the exposition? My answer? Because Gray is special, I think that's pretty reasonable given the emphasis that was given to his darkness over any others

The seeds would have grew regardless if it wasn't for Igneel giving him anti-bodies, dragon seeds grow regardless of emotion. As for doubt making Natsu's grow in spite of the anti bodies, that was likely due to END aggravating things, no other Dragon Slayer has their seeds grow through doubt or any other negative emotion, not even Gajeel.

 

[Ramen]

The Historia Spriggan were weakened, but still able to stand up to Mages like Minerva & Rogue. So he’s strong enough to create 3 small country characters effortlessly. An still stomp a country lvl character.

Rogue and Minerva aren't country level. Neither are the historia spriggans.

 

[Nemispelled]

Oh that’s cool but do u think laxus>erza?

Yes, I still do think that's the case. My opinion has never changed on Laxus vs. Erza, their recent fight just confirmed what many of us knew all along - and it's that Laxus is still the superior mage compared to Erza.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 24, 2020, Original Post Date: Jun 24, 2020 ---

The fact that it has it's own name described in the manga, to me is what distinguishes from it from all other PoF. If it's simply PoF like Jellal gets or like Erza gets then what the hell was the point of Invel's little speech?

Imo Darkness was a reserve of power that Gray had yet to access, like second origin or the power that Natsu unlocked against Gajeel back in the day. I also don't like that "Darkness Gray" is used in PL discussions, but that's just because I think Base Gray is Darkness Gray. He's already unlocked that power, it's his now. Similar to how Natsu became permanently Gajeel tier after he unlocked his hidden power.

While I do somewhat agree with your analogy, I have always been under the impression that Invel's description of Gray's darkness is specifically referring to the side effects of losing control over one's body with excessive use of Devil Slaying Magic. It's why he kept mentioning that he sensed Gray's heart was slowly being tainted by darkness, which apparently causes a wizard to lose their own sanity.

Whether this whole "darkness speech" by Invel refers to a power-up is really subject to debate imo. Invel hasn't exactly been a reliable person when it comes to words - this was especially the case with Ice Lock and the Ice Divine Raiment Armor. Not to mention, it was never specifically stated that Invel noticed a significant boost in Gray's power after Juvia's death.

While I do acknowledge that Invel's words were vague and confusing, I've always thought that the concept of "darkness" simply referred to how Gray will eventually lose control of his own sense of self-restraint and attack an ally (foreshadowing the battle between Natsu/END vs. Gray).

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 24, 2020 ---

Darkness Gray isn't a term that is used to downplay Gray. Quite the opposite tbh. Every character is stronger when they tap into POF. We make a distinction for Natsu and Erza when they're on POF versus when they're not. The 3 instances you mentioned are characters using POF. The only difference with Gray' is that negative emotions get a fancy name called darkness. I have no problem if you just wanted to call "Darkness Gray" as "Gray with POF". It's basically the equivalent "Savage Flames Natsu", which is also basically just Natsu with POF. In fact, basically anything you can say about darkness you can also say about Natsu's flames of emotions. It's not a fan made term either. That's literally what it's called.

Actually, I beg to differ. Natsu's Savage Flames of Emotions is different from Gray's "Darkness Power". Natsu was able to release his Flame of Emotions by tapping into the guild's power, which means that the magic power wasn't originally his. People only made a distinction between Natsu and Savage Flames because their magic energy comes from 2 different sources.

On the other hand, Gray's darkness is directly tied to his DeS Magic; therefore, it's still his own power and should be counted as such.

Invel actually explains that darkness is the source of Zeref's magic. Below is Zeref himself actually tapping into that darkness for his final attack against Natsu. Zeref's darkness is literally just his emotions of anger and sorrow, which he is converting into power the same way Natsu was converting his emotions for the guild into power. They are literally doing the same exact thing with different emotions. The biggest misconception about darkness is that it's anything other than a fancy name for POF with negative emotions. The second biggest is that only Gray can tap into it. Everyone has the potential to use darkness because everyone can experience some negative emotions. It's only more pronounced in characters like Gray/Zeref because they've got a lot bad stuff going on and have a more, for lack of a better word, emo personality than most other characters. But even characters like Natsu have "darkness". We know that the dragon seeds are darkness too. We later find out that in Natsu's case his darkness was his doubt over his humanity. When he got rid of that darkness by reaffirming his belief in being human, the seeds broke.

Well, according to the panel that you posted, all mages possess the "tremendous source of power" called Darkness. But again, this distinction is really arbitrary because who is to decide what level of negative emotions counts as "Darkness"?

In the panels of Juvia, Erza, and Jellal that I posted previously, I could easily argue that they should also have Darkness attached to their name, which was clearly never the case. Same with Zeref... I've never seen anybody label him as Darkness Zeref. It only seems to be favored when it comes to Gray.


But anyways, I disagree with the explanation that Darkness is just negative emotions. Rather than some random power-up, the concept of "Darkness" was supposed to specifically refer to the side effects of DeS Magic, which causes the caster to gradually lose self-control and reach a point of insanity.

And actually, this was also supported by many other witness accounts of Gray during the Avatar Arc... which is even way before Invel's mention of it:

Spoiler: Levy stating that Gray has been consumed by "Darkness"

Spoiler: Briar's mention of Gray's "Blackness"

As you can see, many other characters have already sensed Gray's "darkness" long before Invel noted it. And I've never seen anybody come up with "Darkness Gray" during the Avatar Arc when it was already mentioned.

People only started coming up with that name (hence why I called it fanmade) after Base Gray defeated Invel.

If people really want to believe that Darkness Gray exists, then it's the form that Gray took against Avatar and Natsu during the Avatar Arc... not just against Invel.

 

[Seven777]

Yes, I still do think that's the case. My opinion has never changed on Laxus vs. Erza, their recent fight just confirmed what many of us knew all along - and it's that Laxus is still the superior mage compared to Erza.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 24, 2020, Original Post Date: Jun 24, 2020 ---

While I do somewhat agree with your analogy, I have always been under the impression that Invel's description of Gray's darkness is specifically referring to the side effects of losing control over one's body with excessive use of Devil Slaying Magic. It's why he kept mentioning that he sensed Gray's heart was slowly being tainted by darkness, which apparently causes a wizard to lose their own sanity.

Whether this whole "darkness speech" by Invel refers to a power-up is really subject to debate imo. Invel hasn't exactly been a reliable person when it comes to words - this was especially the case with Ice Lock and the Ice Divine Raiment Armor. Not to mention, it was never specifically stated that Invel noticed a significant boost in Gray's power after Juvia's death.

While I do acknowledge that Invel's words were vague and confusing, I've always thought that the concept of "darkness" simply referred to how Gray will eventually lose control of his own sense of self-restraint and attack an ally (foreshadowing the battle between Natsu/END vs. Gray).

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 24, 2020 ---

Actually, I beg to differ. Natsu's Savage Flames of Emotions is different from Gray's "Darkness Power". Natsu was able to release his Flame of Emotions by tapping into the guild's power, which means that the magic power wasn't originally his. People only made a distinction between Natsu and Savage Flames because their magic energy comes from 2 different sources.

On the other hand, Gray's darkness is directly tied to his DeS Magic; therefore, it's still his own power and should be counted as such.






Well, according to the panel that you posted, all mages possess the "tremendous source of power" called Darkness. But again, this distinction is really arbitrary because who is to decide what level of negative emotions counts as "Darkness"?

In the panels of Juvia, Erza, and Jellal that I posted previously, I could easily argue that they should also have Darkness attached to their name, which was clearly never the case. Same with Zeref... I've never seen anybody label him as Darkness Zeref. It only seems to be favored when it comes to Gray.


But anyways, I disagree with the explanation that Darkness is just negative emotions. Rather than some random power-up, the concept of "Darkness" was supposed to specifically refer to the side effects of DeS Magic, which causes the caster to gradually lose self-control and reach a point of insanity.

And actually, this was also supported by many other witness accounts of Gray during the Avatar Arc... which is even way before Invel's mention of it:

Spoiler: Levy stating that Gray has been consumed by "Darkness"

Spoiler: Briar's mention of Gray's "Blackness"

As you can see, many other characters have already sensed Gray's "darkness" long before Invel noted it. And I've never seen anybody come up with "Darkness Gray" during the Avatar Arc when it was already mentioned.

People only started coming up with that name (hence why I called it fanmade) after Base Gray defeated Invel.

If people really want to believe that Darkness Gray exists, then it's the form that Gray took against Avatar and Natsu during the Avatar Arc... not just against Invel.

I mean sure, he didn't state that there was a significant boost, but he did start crapping his pants at the sight of Base Gray. While on the other hand he was more or less on par with DeS Gray before then.

The way I see it, Darkness is just like a second container of energy Gray unlocked after Invel pushed him over the edge, just like second origin.

 

[Nemispelled]

I mean sure, he didn't state that there was a significant boost, but he did start crapping his pants at the sight of Base Gray. While on the other hand he was more or less on par with DeS Gray before then.

The way I see it, Darkness is just like a second container of energy Gray unlocked after Invel pushed him over the edge, just like second origin.

Fair enough. I do agree with your assessment that Gray's darkness emerged from his DeS Magic, which is something unique to Gray himself. I just differ on the way it affected Gray, which I happen to think was more of a character quality than a mere power-up.

As far as I'm concerned, the point of developing the whole Darkness concept was to eventually turn Gray against Natsu, which would mean fighting his own best friend. Invel knew that Gray was the only known Devil Slayer at the time and needed Gray to be taken over by his DeS Magic in order to be willing to kill END.


I am also well aware that DeS Gray didn't show as good of a performance against Invel compared to his base form. I've always thought that Gray was just warming up in that form though, which is why I hate it when shipping moments have to interfere with a fight and ruin it.

In my opinion, Gray took the fight far more seriously in his base form, which is why I am reluctant to attribute it to Darkness alone. In fact, I would say that Gray's peak power in his base form was the one he used to take out Invel.

 

[Axiomus]

True, not specifically, but it's enough of an implication for me, at least with everything else that's said about Darkness.

Ankhseram's curse being an alternate source of darkness opens up the possibility of many other sources of darkness, like DeS magic.
I'm not talking about Invel's actions, I'm talking about Invel's words. Why did Mashima go out of his way to have Invel explain what Darkness was to Gray? Why give Invel his little monlogue about needing Gray to unleash the Darkness within him? Mashima could have just had Invel go through with his Ice Lock plan and then just had Gray beat his ass afterwards, normal anger PoF like any other. Why give all the exposition? My answer? Because Gray is special, I think that's pretty reasonable given the emphasis that was given to his darkness over any others

The seeds would have grew regardless if it wasn't for Igneel giving him anti-bodies, dragon seeds grow regardless of emotion. As for doubt making Natsu's grow in spite of the anti bodies, that was likely due to END aggravating things, no other Dragon Slayer has their seeds grow through doubt or any other negative emotion, not even Gajeel.

But Invel never said that Gray's darkness comes from his devil slaying magic. There's no connection here. Ankhseram's curse might be an atlernate source of darkness. But it's exclusive to Zeref. Gray doesn't have it.

Invel wanted Gray to take out END for him. When he figured he couldn't convince Gray to join their side. He figured Gray would be easier to control if he was amped on darkness. That's all.

That would be because no other dragon slayer had reason to doubt their humanity after the dragons explained the antibodies. Natsu found out he was END.

 

[Ramen]

How's DeS not connected to his "darkness" or whatever? It's his inner demon that's connected the DeS itself that brings these emotions out.

 

[Axiomus]

Actually, I beg to differ. Natsu's Savage Flames of Emotions is different from Gray's "Darkness Power". Natsu was able to release his Flame of Emotions by tapping into the guild's power, which means that the magic power wasn't originally his. People only made a distinction between Natsu and Savage Flames because their magic energy comes from 2 different sources.

They're the exact same thing. Heck, Zeref using his darkness was basically in response to Natsu's flames of emotions. Natsu has always had flames of emotion, even before fighting Zeref. That's what they were called ever since Natsu fought Erigor. The "power of the guild" is just the way POF has always been portrayed. Natsu starts hearing/remembering the voices of the people in his guild in his mind, gets emotional, and that makes him stronger. It's been that way since his fight with Zero. This is Natsu's nakama speech when he fought Zero.

Spoiler

Here is Natsu's nakama speech before he beat up Jackal.

Spoiler

Now I personally don't take these words at face value, because I don't believe Natsu has the ability to siphon the MP off his guild-mates. But let's say I'm completely off the mark. Well, then this is just how Natsu's POF works. It's still not exclusive to his fight with Zeref. It honestly just means we should probably assume that if Natsu is thinking about someone while using POF, then he's probably jacking their powers at some level. It might not even be exclusive to the guild tbh, considering who he's thinking of when fighting Zero. When all is said and done: It's all POF.

On the other hand, Gray's darkness is directly tied to his DeS Magic; therefore, it's still his own power and should be counted as such.

No it's not.

Well, according to the panel that you posted, all mages possess the "tremendous source of power" called Darkness. But again, this distinction is really arbitrary because who is to decide what level of negative emotions counts as "Darkness"?

Any negative emotion can count as darkness tbh.

In the panels of Juvia, Erza, and Jellal that I posted previously, I could easily argue that they should also have Darkness attached to their name, which was clearly never the case. Same with Zeref... I've never seen anybody label him as Darkness Zeref. It only seems to be favored when it comes to Gray.

You can call Juvia or Erza's cases darkness if you want, but most people would just call that POF. And Zeref absolutely does use darkness. In Gray's case, his POF gets a cool name. But it honestly doesn't matter what you call it. Gray got emotional when he thought Juvia died and that made him stronger. That's the long and short of it.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 25, 2020, Original Post Date: Jun 25, 2020 ---

How's DeS not connected to his "darkness" or whatever? It's his inner demon that's connected the DeS itself that brings these emotions out.

Because nobody ever said it was. Not directly, anyways. You can maybe work up a theory that because devil slaying magic makes you lose your mind, you become more likely to fall into darkness. But it's equally possible you just end up insane. This is what Invel actually said about devil slaying magic. Unless we're saying losing your mind is interchangeable with darkness....he's not really saying Gray's devil slaying magic is what's giving him darkness.

Spoiler

And honestly, I would make the argument that Gray's had darkness waaaaaaaaaaay before learning devil slaying magic. Like way back when Deliora killed his family. Remember this line?

Spoiler

Same line Gray echos to Ultear later on. Darkness is just an umbrella term for negative emotions.

Spoiler

 

[Ramen]

They're the exact same thing. Heck, Zeref using his darkness was basically in response to Natsu's flames of emotions. Natsu has always had flames of emotion, even before fighting Zeref. That's what they were called ever since Natsu fought Erigor. The "power of the guild" is just the way POF has always been portrayed. Natsu starts hearing/remembering the voices of the people in his guild in his mind, gets emotional, and that makes him stronger. It's been that way since his fight with Zero. He's not literally taking MP from the guild.



No it's not.



Any negative emotion can count as darkness tbh.



You can call Juvia or Erza's cases darkness if you want. But most people would just call that POF. In Gray's case, his POF gets a cool name. But it honestly doesn't matter what you call it. Gray got emotional when he thought Juvia died and that made him stronger. That's the long and short of it,

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 25, 2020, Original Post Date: Jun 25, 2020 ---

Because nobody ever said it was. Not directly, anyways. You can maybe work up a theory that because devil slaying magic makes you lose your mind, you become more likely to fall into darkness. But it's equally possible you just end up insane. This is what Invel actually said about devil slaying magic. Unless we're saying losing your mind is interchangeable with darkness....he's not really saying Gray's devil slaying magic is what's giving him darkness.

Spoiler

And honestly, I would make the argument that Gray's had darkness waaaaaaaaaaay before learning devil slaying magic. Like way back when Deliora killed his family. Remember this line?

Spoiler

Same line Gray echos to Ultear later on. Darkness is just an umbrella term for negative emotions.

Spoiler

Invel literally says those who hunt demons lose their minds.

 

[Axiomus]

Invel literally says those who hunt demons lose their minds.

So do people who do drugs.

 

[Ramen]

So do people who do drugs.

Because that totally relates to this. Seriously, that literally makes no sense.

 

[Axiomus]

Because that totally relates to this.

There is direct relationship between using hard drugs and losing your mind.
There is a direct relationship between using devil slaying magic and losing your mind.
There isn't a direct relationship between using devil slaying magic and having darkness.

 

[Ramen]

There is direct relationship between using hard drugs and losing your mind.
There is a direct relationship between using devil slaying magic and losing your mind.
There isn't a direct relationship between using devil slaying magic and having darkness.

There is a direct relationship between those who love airplanes and those who are pilots. What's your point?

Losing your mind brings out the negative emotions which are amplified because DeS is a negative magic.

 

[Axiomus]

There is a direct relationship between those who love airplanes and those who are pilots. What's your point?

Losing your mind brings out the negative emotions which are amplified because DeS is a negative magic.

DeS makes you lose your mind. You might be more likely to have negative emotions when you've lost your mind, but that's it. DeS isn't a negative magic. Not any more than DS or takeover, or any other magic that has the potential side effect of messing with your mind.

 

[Nemispelled]

They're the exact same thing. Heck, Zeref using his darkness was basically in response to Natsu's flames of emotions. Natsu has always had flames of emotion, even before fighting Zeref. That's what they were called ever since Natsu fought Erigor. The "power of the guild" is just the way POF has always been portrayed. Natsu starts hearing/remembering the voices of the people in his guild in his mind, gets emotional, and that makes him stronger. It's been that way since his fight with Zero. This is Natsu's nakama speech when he fought Zero.

Spoiler

Here is Natsu's nakama speech before he beat up Jackal.

Spoiler

Now I personally don't take these words at face value, because I don't believe Natsu has the ability to siphon the MP off his guild-mates. But let's say I'm completely off the mark. Well, then this is just how Natsu's POF works. It's still not exclusive to his fight with Zeref. It honestly just means we should probably assume that if Natsu is thinking about someone while using POF, then he's probably jacking their powers at some level. It might not even be exclusive to the guild tbh, considering who he's thinking of when fighting Zero. When all is said and done: It's all POF.

I mean, sure, what Zeref did was essentially the same thing as Natsu. He was converting feelings into power. Both of them made an outright statement that they were drawing magical energy from an untapped source (whether it's guildmates or emotions), so it was blatantly obvious to readers where the power was coming from. Thanks to Mashima, the readers didn't have to make any further guesses on this and could just call it the way it was.

In my last post, I was making a distinction between Natsu's Savage Flames and Gray's "Darkness". Gray's darkness power was never stated to be derived from his friends nor was it ever made explicitly clear at which point it became activated. For all we know, it could have been activated way before Alvarez Arc or it could have never been activated at all.

Like I said previously, both Levy and Briar sensed Gray's darkness in Avatar Arc. Levy even went as far as to say that Gray was consumed by it. If a FT member could notice an apparent change in Gray's darkness during those chapters, then it clearly wasn't exclusive to Gray's battle against Invel... let alone a POF moment, unless you thought that Gray resorted to POF to fight Natsu and the Avatar members at the Avatar hideout.

No it's not.

Well, I guess it depends on how we define "Darkness Gray". In my opinion, the darkness experienced by Gray was merely referring to the side effects of his constant use of Devil Slaying Magic, which eats away at the user's soul.

Levy first noticed the darkness inside Gray when she infiltrated the Avatar guild, which she never mentioned before Gray acquired DeS Magic. The same darkness was also commented on by Briar and Invel when Gray was in his DeS form.

And it can't be a coincidence that Levy, Briar, and Invel all mentioned the word "darkness/blackness" only when Gray activated his DeS Magic along with the Devil Slaying Markings across his body.

Any negative emotion can count as darkness tbh.

If negative emotions = darkness, then almost every character in FT who experienced anger in a battle (virtually all characters in FT) should have the title attached to their name.

And if I were to start power ranking "Darkness" Characters according to how everybody else is currently doing it... you do realize that it would look something as ludicrous as this, right?

• Darkness Erza > Minerva >>>> Erza
• Darkness Jellal > Neinhart >>>> Jellal
• Darkness Juvia > Meredy >>>> Juvia

You can call Juvia or Erza's cases darkness if you want, but most people would just call that POF. And Zeref absolutely does use darkness. In Gray's case, his POF gets a cool name. But it honestly doesn't matter what you call it. Gray got emotional when he thought Juvia died and that made him stronger. That's the long and short of it.

I've never seen somebody make a POF Juvia, POF Jellal, POF Laxus, or POF Gajeel battle thread in the Domus Flau subsection or in any power-ranking threads.

And keep in mind that all these characters were also once villains of FT... so they could just as easily qualify for the "Darkness" title.

To date, I've really only seen people say:

"Alright guys, new thread! What do you guys think of Darkness Gray vs. Mirajane/Erza/Laxus/Gajeel/Jellal?"

But correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Axiomus]

I mean, sure, what Zeref did was essentially the same thing as Natsu. He was converting feelings into power. Both of them made an outright statement that they were drawing magical energy from an untapped source (whether it's guildmates or emotions), so it was blatantly obvious to readers where the power was coming from. Thanks to Mashima, the readers didn't have to make any further guesses on this and could just call it the way it was.

In my last post, I was making a distinction between Natsu's Savage Flames and Gray's "Darkness". Gray's darkness power was never stated to be derived from his friends nor was it ever made explicitly clear at which point it became activated. For all we know, it could have been activated way before Alvarez Arc or it could have never been activated at all.

Like I said previously, both Levy and Briar sensed Gray's darkness in Avatar Arc. Levy even went as far as to say that Gray was consumed by it. If a FT member could notice an apparent change in Gray's darkness during those chapters, then it clearly wasn't exclusive to Gray's battle against Invel... let alone a PoF moment, unless you thought that Gray resorted to PoF to fight Natsu and the Avatar members at the Avatar hideout.





Well, I guess it depends on how we define "Darkness Gray". In my opinion, the darkness experienced by Gray was merely referring to the side effects of his constant use of Devil Slaying Magic, which eats away at the user's soul.

Levy first noticed the darkness inside Gray when she infiltrated the Avatar guild, which she never mentioned before Gray acquired DeS Magic. The same darkness was also commented on by Briar and Invel when Gray was in his DeS form.

It can't be a coincidence that Levy, Briar, and Invel all mentioned the word "darkness/blackness" only when Gray activated his DeS Magic along with the Devil Slaying Markings across his body.




If negative emotions = darkness, then almost every character in FT who experienced anger in a battle (virtually all characters in FT) should have the title attached to their name.

And if I were to start power ranking "Darkness" Characters according to how everybody else is currently doing it... you do realize that it would look something as ludicrous as this, right?

• Darkness Erza > Minerva >>>> Erza
• Darkness Jellal > Neinhart >>>> Jellal
• Darkness Juvia > Meredy >>>> Juvia

I've never seen somebody make a POF Juvia, POF Jellal, POF Laxus, or POF Gajeel battle thread in the Domus Flau subsection or in any power-ranking threads.

And keep in mind that all these characters were also once villains of FT... so they could just as easily qualify for the "Darkness" title.

To date, I've really only seen people say:

"Alright guys, new thread! What do you guys think of Darkness Gray vs. Mirajane/Erza/Laxus/Gajeel/Jellal?"

But correct me if I'm wrong.

Well yeah, they're different emotions. I'm not trying to say that Gray's darkness is the same thing as Natsu's feelings for his friends. But what I am saying is that, fundamentally, they are both emotions that make them stronger.

Gray was faking it during Avatar. Levy and Briar didn't say that Gray had a lot of darkness because of his devil slaying marks. Briar said Gray's heart was black because of the speech he gave. He had the markings up the entire time during Avatar. He just took off his shirt. Levy just assumed that since he joined Avatar he went off the deep end. Don't think she even saw Gray.

I don't think Gray's darkness is exclusive to his fight with Invel. But it is reliant on him experiencing negative emotions, which isn't happening right now. Though to be fair, I don't think it even matters when evaluating power levels. Like I said, Mashima's whole shtick is that love is the strongest. When Gray starts tapping into regular POF to fight, he'll probably be stronger than when he's tapping into darkness anyways.

I really have nothing to say about the VS threads people choose to make. Tbh I'm not a huge fan of the term "Darkness Gray" either.

 

[Seven777]

But Invel never said that Gray's darkness comes from his devil slaying magic. There's no connection here. Ankhseram's curse might be an atlernate source of darkness. But it's exclusive to Zeref. Gray doesn't have it.

Invel wanted Gray to take out END for him. When he figured he couldn't convince Gray to join their side. He figured Gray would be easier to control if he was amped on darkness. That's all.

That would be because no other dragon slayer had reason to doubt their humanity after the dragons explained the antibodies. Natsu found out he was END.

Not explicitly, but the implication was there, especially with all the foreshadowing in the Avatar arc. And like I said, the curse being an alternate source opens up the possibility for other alternate sources, DeS likely being among them given the emphasis on Gray and his darkness.

Why an enormous source of power then? Why not stick with just the insanity shtick? And you're trying to argue that the insanity isn't darkness right? So why exactly would dark Gray be easier to control? I think it's pretty clear that DeS side effects is darkness, that's why immediately after stating it he made his speech about Darkness and why Invel was so eager to unleash it, which also means that DeS magic is in fact a direct source of darkness.
Mashima literally created this power for Gray, which is why Gray got all the exposition for it, which is why Gray is the first and only FT character stated to have used it, which is why other Anger PoF people like Jellal, Erza, Sting, etc, were never even hinted at possessing the same ability, even in the same arc.

Plenty of dragon slayers had negative emotions. Are you trying to tell me Natsu's doubt is even remotely close to the pain Sting endured after Lector was killed? Even remotely close to the pain Rogue endured when Froche was killed? When he killed Sting? Of course not. Even Gajeel had more negatives going for him than Natsu had, doubting his strength, doubting his morality, doubting his place in Fairy Tail.
Dragon Seeds grow regardless of emotion, we know this, this is why antibodies were needed and I think we both know that Natsu's being the only one to grow in spite of antibodies was more to do with who Natsu was, rather than the emotions he was feeling.