@Rigel@Hexenhammar
I congratulate you and thank you for defending Lucy's honor against all these haters who do not want to admit that she has become stronger than old and outdated characters.
And yes it is a fact that Kyria posed a problem to Erza, even if the latter did not give her all this still makes Kyria and Lucy evolve above Minerva (Kagura has no feats apart taking L against the Spriggans so she doesn't deserve to be in the debate)
I'm not a Lucy hater just because I don't overestimate her physical status. Lucy is actually one of my favorite characters from FT.
If saying that Lucy doesn't have the speed level of Minerva and Kagura (female wizards who debuted in the manga challenging Erza in close combat and that, even after losing space in the narrative, are portrayed as fast and have better feats than Lucy in physical combat) is being a Lucy hater, than Mashima is the first Lucy hater, because it was him that portrayed Lucy as unable to react Kiria serious cuts at the extent of needing be saved, respectively, by Horologium automatic defense and by Laxus.
I'm not a Lucy hater just because I don't overestimate her physical status. Lucy is actually one of my favorite characters from FT.
If saying that Lucy doesn't have the speed level of Minerva and Kagura (female wizards who debuted in the manga challenging Erza in close combat and that, even after losing space in the narrative, are portrayed as fast and have better feats than Lucy in physical combat) is being a Lucy hater, than Mashima is the first Lucy hater, because it was him that portrayed Lucy as unable to react Kiria serious cuts at the extent of needing be saved, respectively, by Horologium automatic defense and by Laxus.
Dude, these arguments are getting more and more pathetic by the day. Lucy got sliced by Kiria because she tried to perform a magic spell which takes a specific position to cast, so when Kiria cut her she was stuck there. Not to mention, Lucy had ZERO idea Kiria could cut through magic, so she was completely caught of guard.
And as for Lucy getting saved does nothing to knock down her speed, because she had tried to use her whool magic to block Kiria, but failed due to Kiria having the ability to cut through everything which ultimately broke her defense and staggered her. And with Kiria being much physically stronger than Lucy, it's only natural Lucy would need to be saved. Because while they are portrayed as equal in speed, Kiria being much physically stronger and having the ability to cut through ANYTHING makes her much more formidable in close quarters.
Also I have already proven Minerva, and Luso isn't are nowhere near as Lucy OR Kiria, and Kagura is far too weak to even be compared. Please just give this up, for our sakes and yours.
Two instances of Kiria landing blows on Erza, that Erza herself couldn't dodge. Yes in the first one she used her blade to block it, but Erza couldn't dodge it, and as we've shown earlier, the Hakama Pants armor exponentially boosts her speed as seen here.
Kiria forcing Erza to actually PARRY her strikes, is far more impressive than dodging Luso especially when Erza was clearly using much weaker and slower armors. Hell, Kiria even hits Erza with her hypnosis attack which is a SHOCKWAVE, and also manages to hit characters like Laxus as well if we really wanna go there. So yes, Kiria is indeed faster than Luso and Minerva.
Kiria is very far from Erza's speed when Erza is fighting seriously and putting effort. Kiria couldn't hit a single attack on Laxus, who also defeated her with minimal effort (Laxus also defeated Skullion - who is Kiria's team leader - with even sweat), while Erza has the speed to fight Laxus in his Red Lightning Dragon Mode, ie, Erza can keep up with Laxus using his enhanced battle form.
Thus, Erza > huge gap > Kiria in terms of speed.
Kiria is just good enough to keep up with casual Erza for a little time, but without being able to hit any cut on the Titania. Meanwhile, Luso could hit Erza multiple times and hit Jellal two times (and Jellal wasn't taken by surprise; Laxus was by Kiria's hax). Jellal used "Meteor" to deal with one of Luso's creations. Luso also could measure her speed of creation of creatures against Ezra's speed of destruction with Tenrin Armor (Kiria never showed to be able to handle Tenrin for a few time).
We have Luso's power hitting strong and fast wizards as Jellal and Erza multiple times while Kiria couldn't hit any strong wizard without being with the surprise factor (Erza blocked with her arms the shockwave cast by Kiria, but we all know that the blocked it doesn't work). And you're saying that Kiria's physical combat is faster than Luso's power? If that's true, why Kiria couldn't hit a physical attack on any strong foe while Luso's power hit Jellal and Erza?
It clearly demands more speed to keep up with Luso's power than to battle against Kiria. Thus, Minerva > Kiria in terms of speed, and also Minerva > Lucy (who is below Kiria's speed).
Dude, these arguments are getting more and more pathetic by the day. Lucy got sliced by Kiria because she tried to perform a magic spell which takes a specific position to cast, so when Kiria cut her she was stuck there. Not to mention, Lucy had ZERO idea Kiria could cut through magic, so she was completely caught of guard.
And as for Lucy getting saved does nothing to knock down her speed, because she had tried to use her whool magic to block Kiria, but failed due to Kiria having the ability to cut through everything which ultimately broke her defense and staggered her. And with Kiria being much physically stronger than Lucy, it's only natural Lucy would need to be saved. Because while they are portrayed as equal in speed, Kiria being much physically stronger and having the ability to cut through ANYTHING makes her much more formidable in close quarters.
Also I have already proven Minerva, and Luso isn't are nowhere near as Lucy OR Kiria, and Kagura is far too weak to even be compared. Please just give this up, for our sakes and yours.
Lucy was slashed because after Kiria cut her spell, she couldn't move away to evade Kiria's cut. Kiria's cut speed pressured Lucy to that extent because Lucy wasn't fast enough to react to the counter-attack. Kiria didn't prove to be able to do the same with Gray or Mirajane, for instance. These scenes are about Kiria's skills but are also about how Lucy's reaction to counter-attacks is portrayed in the FT universe.
Kiria is very far from Erza's speed when Erza is fighting seriously and putting effort. Kiria couldn't hit a single attack on Laxus, who also defeated her with minimal effort (Laxus also defeated Skullion - who is Kiria's team leader - with even sweat), while Erza has the speed to fight Laxus in his Red Lightning Dragon Mode, ie, Erza can keep up with Laxus using his enhanced battle form.
Thus, Erza > huge gap > Kiria in terms of speed.
Kiria is just good enough to keep up with casual Erza for a little time, but without being able to hit any cut on the Titania. Meanwhile, Luso could hit Erza multiple times and hit Jellal two times (and Jellal wasn't taken by surprise; Laxus was by Kiria's hax). Jellal used "Meteor" to deal with one of Luso's creations. Luso also could measure her speed of creation of creatures against Ezra's speed of destruction with Tenrin Armor (Kiria never showed to be able to handle Tenrin for a few time).
We have Luso's power hitting strong and fast wizards as Jellal and Erza multiple times while Kiria couldn't hit any strong wizard without being with the surprise factor (Erza blocked with her arms the shockwave cast by Kiria, but we all know that the blocked it doesn't work). And you're saying that Kiria's physical combat is faster than Luso's power? If that's true, why Kiria couldn't hit a physical attack on any strong foe while Luso's power hit Jellal and Erza?
It clearly demands more speed to keep up with Luso's power than to battle against Kiria. Thus, Minerva > Kiria in terms of speed, and also Minerva > Lucy (who is below Kiria's speed).
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Lucy was slashed because after Kiria cut her spell, she couldn't move away to evade Kiria's cut. Kiria's cut speed pressured Lucy to that extent because Lucy wasn't fast enough to react to the counter-attack. Kiria didn't prove to be able to do the same with Gray or Mirajane, for instance. These scenes are about Kiria's skills but are also about how Lucy's reaction to counter-attacks is portrayed in the FT universe.
Ok, and? I'm not saying Kiria is equal to Erza when she's fighting seriously and putting in effort. And the same goes for the Signario Sisters, cause Erza never used her best armors against them, she simply wore her weakest ones. Also the gap in speed absolutely isn't that huge, considering how Kiria hit Laxus with her strength cutting, and he couldn't react to it at ALL. I'm not crazy enough to say stuff like Kiria is faster than Laxus, but the fact Kiria accomplished this on him speaks levels about her speed. And prove Laxus was surprised, in the panel before he got hit by strength cutting, he literally was ready to throw down with her with his lightning crackling around him.
Also Tenrin Armor isn't that fast at all, Hakama Pants is literally faster than it. When wearing her Tenrin Armor, Erza straight up got blitzed by a toying around Ikaruga, so I don't know why that was brought up.
And it's pretty simple, neither Erza NOR Jellal themselves were going all out, Erza never used her Armadura Fairy Armor, neither did she enchant her blades, and Jellal did not fight as hard against them as nearly as he did with God Serena because he didn't use Orion OR Grand Chariot on them. Both Jellal and Erza weren't going all out, and once they did go out, Erza atleast both proved to be far outside Luso's weight class. So you can't use the argument 'Erza wasn't going all out' as s knock against Kiria while gassing up Luso considering her opponents never once got serious against her.
Also that's not speed at all from Minerva, it's her literal ability to warp the space around her. The only reason Luso didn't dodge it was because Luso had no reason too. She can literally make her body into anything she wants and take zero damage. Also Ennie's dislodge with Luso literally tells us she was holding back against them, and once Luso started taking them seriously, Minerva couldn't react to Luso at all and got stopped out by her under foot, needing her space magic to be able to escape.
We can literally see her get her wool defense broken and hit hard by the slicing attack in the bottom left panel, clearly extremely injured. Also, her Cancer Star Dress is obvious faster than her Aries Stardress. Because as with Cancer, she was keeping up with Kiria in speed and only got overpowered because Kiria hits way too hard for someone of her level and broke her blades because Kiria has higher damage output.
Please: neither Kiria nor Luso battle Erza and Jellal fighting seriously, but Luso's power could hit Jellal and Erza multiple times, while Kiria's physical combat couldn't. Thus, Luso's power is faster than Kiria's physical combat. You can't deny my statement that Minerva is faster than Lucy using a casual fighter Erza as a reference.
I said since the start of this discussion that Lucy maybe can defeat Kagura, Minerva, or even Mirajane with Uranometria or Gottfried, however, Lucy is still notably below them in terms of speed and physical combat and would be beaten hard until she casts her finalization spells. Besides that, without the help of the narrative, the three rank-S can prevent Lucy from cats these spells or can elude them.
To measure a universe's power ranking, we need to take into account (in a balanced way) both feats and statements, because without the statements, we can't know, for instance, that the Signarios Sisters are stronger than God Serena (since God Serena didn't fight them, and the Sisters didn't fight Jellal on a complete battle as God Serena did, allowing we to compare the performances against the same enemy). Kagura is portrayed as someone fast, once that even far stronger opponents than her keep saying that she is fast. Nobody appears emphasizing Lucy's speed. One year ago, Lucy wasn't even close to Kagura's speed level. If there is no statement that Lucy's speed grew exponentially because she trained it or because she is using some type of magic that enhances her speed significantly, Lucy doesn't have anything in the narrative that supports the idea that she has surpassed Kagura's speed level. Am I clear?
Please: neither Kiria nor Luso battle Erza and Jellal fighting seriously, but Luso's power could hit Jellal and Erza multiple times, while Kiria's physical combat couldn't. Thus, Luso's power is faster than Kiria's physical combat. You can't deny my statement that Minerva is faster than Lucy using a casual fighter Erza as a reference.
Luso has zero feats in physical combat... Kiria was agile enough to go toe-to-toe with Erza, managed to hit Jellal and Laxus with her roar (they no sold it but you get it), plus also hit the latter (twice!) and Erza with her shockwave. Luso has achieved nothing in both fights that put her on another league from Kiria when it comes to speed.
Minerva doesn't scale to Luso's speed btw. The two times she managed to hit her, this was literally a fake. And she was playing with her too lol.
Lucy was easily keeping up with a casual Kiria until she pissed her off and got Cancer's scissors destroyed. From that moment, she was unable to fight her in close range and had to resort to either defensive spells or long range attacks. Neither were useful against Kiria's ability to cut through any spell, and she was indeed getting overwhelmed physically and speedwise. But how can we actually assume that either Kagura (whose latest feats are from the Alvarez arc, against Larcade who's solidly below Jellal/Laxus/Erza in speed) or Minerva (who actually hasn't achieved anything notable against Luso) would be able to keep up with Kiria? What prevents her from cutting their spells and just overwhelm them in h2h combat as well? They still have no feats that suggest they are durable enough to take a barrage of attacks from her.
Luso has zero feats in physical combat... Kiria was agile enough to go toe-to-toe with Erza, managed to hit Jellal and Laxus with her roar (they no sold it but you get it), plus also hit the latter (twice!) and Erza with her shockwave. Luso has achieved nothing in both fights that put her on another league from Kiria when it comes to speed.
Minerva doesn't scale to Luso's speed btw. The two times she managed to hit her, this was literally a fake.
Lucy was easily keeping up with a casual Kiria until she pissed her off and got Cancer's scissors destroyed. From that moment, she was unable to fight her in close range and had to resort to either defensive spells or long range attacks. Neither were useful against Kiria's ability to cut through any spell, and she was indeed getting overwhelmed physically and speedwise. But how can we actually assume that either Kagura (whose latest feats are from the Alvarez arc, against Larcade who's solidly below Jellal/Laxus/Erza in speed) or Minerva (who actually hasn't achieved anything notable against Luso) would be able to keep up with Kiria? What prevents her from cutting their spells and just overwhelm them in h2h combat as well? They have no feats that suggest they are durable enough to take a barrage of attacks from her.
Off topic regarding the last few posts, but I was rereading some fights and I am actually inclined to believe that Lucy might be faster than Wendy, opposing the general consensus. I'm not completely sure of this so I wanted to hear you guys' opinion but here's why I believe it.
Early on in the 100 years quest (chapter 11), right after Kiria defeated Erza, submitting her through her strength-cutter and starting to humiliate her, an enraged Wendy, whose speed was enhanced by Dragon Force, rushed towards Kiria and attacked with a blast of wind. Kiria casually dodged the attack, while playing around and mocking Wendy for her height. She wasn't being serious at all.
90 chapters later, now in chapter 101, Lucy showed that she was agile enough to evade a casual Kiria's attacks with her regular speed, when she wasn't wearing any star dress.
She got her clothes cut off without noticing it but right after did the same to Kiria after matching her blow for blow with Cancer's dress, which enhances her speed.
Kiria was casual at the time and later easily overwhelming Lucy once she actually went serious but she was still taking her at least as seriously as she did Wendy.
Now some will come and say "b-b-but the Haku fight ", as if it in any way highlighted Wendy's speed. Her base form was solidly outclassed by Haku's speed and strength (chapters 97 and 98).
And even when she went DF, trapping Haku in her wind cage and landing her final blow, he was already immobilized by his own plushies and unable to even try to defend himself.
At no point in their fight did Wendy actually match Haku in speed. Nothing suggests she's on his relative level when it comes to that aspect. So Kiria's feat isn't canceled.
But then I do think Wendy's secret art can knock out Kiria because it koed Haku. In the same way Gottfried can ko Kiria despite Lucy being slower than her. Haku's durability is also unknown and he hasn't tanked any worthy attack (apart from base Wendy's fodder roar) to suggest it is on another level from Kiria's, even though he is overall stronger than her. Gottfried knocks him out as well imo
So basically when it comes to speed: Haku > serious Kiria > Lucy = casual Kiria > Wendy
Exacty. And when I said that Luso has physicsl combats feats? I never said that. Honestly, by this part of the discussion, you aren't even discussing what I said, you're just joing forces to "protect Lucy's honor" LOL.
I said that is needed more speed to deal with Luso's power than to fight against Kiria's physical moviments. And I can prove that.
Please: neither Kiria nor Luso battle Erza and Jellal fighting seriously, but Luso's power could hit Jellal and Erza multiple times, while Kiria's physical combat couldn't. Thus, Luso's power is faster than Kiria's physical combat. You can't deny my statement that Minerva is faster than Lucy using a casual fighter Erza as a reference.
I said since the start of this discussion that Lucy maybe can defeat Kagura, Minerva, or even Mirajane with Uranometria or Gottfried, however, Lucy is still notably below them in terms of speed and physical combat and would be beaten hard until she casts her finalization spells. Besides that, without the help of the narrative, the three rank-S can prevent Lucy from cats these spells or can elude them.
To measure a universe's power ranking, we need to take into account (in a balanced way) both feats and statements, because without the statements, we can't know, for instance, that the Signarios Sisters are stronger than God Serena (since God Serena didn't fight them, and the Sisters didn't fight Jellal on a complete battle as God Serena did, allowing we to compare the performances against the same enemy). Kagura is portrayed as someone fast, once that even far stronger opponents than her keep saying that she is fast. Nobody appears emphasizing Lucy's speed. One year ago, Lucy wasn't even close to Kagura's speed level. If there is no statement that Lucy's speed grew exponentially because she trained it or because she is using some type of magic that enhances her speed significantly, Lucy doesn't have anything in the narrative that supports the idea that she has surpassed Kagura's speed level. Am I clear?
Funny you mention that, because we ourselves can argue that Kiria herself wasn't going all out against Erza, unironically she went all out against Lucy more than she did against Erza. For starters, Kiria never used her blade Dragon Techniques against Erza in their battle aboard the ship, and even after Erza 'defeated' her, Kiria had gotten up still raring to go, meaning during her fight with Erza she was more than likely casual herself.
And considering how Lucy could easily cut through the clothes of casual Kiria the way she did(she couldn't even see it), we can assume casual Hakama Pants Erza and Cancer Stardress are around the same level of speed. Also it doesn't matter if Luso could hit Jellal and Erza multiple times with her power, as Erza NEVER used her Hakama Pants during her battle with Luso. So I'm not impressed.
And the rest of that doesn't matter, because the Lucy feats I mentioned above speak for themselves rather than outdated characters commenting on Foddergura's speed.
Funny you mention that, because we ourselves can argue that Kiria herself wasn't going all out against Erza, unironically she went all out against Lucy more than she did against Erza. For starters, Kiria never used her blade Dragon Techniques against Erza in their battle aboard the ship, and even after Erza 'defeated' her, Kiria had gotten up still raring to go, meaning during her fight with Erza she was more than likely casual herself.
And considering how Lucy could easily cut through the clothes of casual Kiria the way she did(she couldn't even see it), we can assume casual Hakama Pants Erza and Cancer Stardress are around the same level of speed. Also it doesn't matter if Luso could hit Jellal and Erza multiple times with her power, as Erza NEVER used her Hakama Pants during her battle with Luso. So I'm not impressed.
And the rest of that doesn't matter, because the Lucy feats I mentioned above speak for themselves rather than outdated characters commenting on Foddergura's speed.
Kiria wasn't treated as a real challenge to Erza, just it. She needed to resource to the "cut strength hax" because she already was in trouble while Erza fought with a swimsuit. The problem is that Kiria couldn't hit any strong magic with her cuts that supposedly cut everything. Erza already dealt with Kiria's cuts with Enchantment in the broken sword. Laxus however, doesn't use a sword, but he wasn't cut even once by Kiria's Dragon Eater magic. Kiria also called Erza and Laxus monsters, so what the narrative is saying is it: Kiria can't perform against Erza and Laxus as she performed against Lucy, because they outclasse Kiria so hard that they probably just would evade her cuts or tank it with few efforts. Mashima chose to portray Kiria as a small fry against "Laxus level's wizards".
Luso, however, at least could hit Erza and Jellal multiple times and made Erza spam Tenrin's swords to destroy all the monsters that she created. Luso's power > Kiria's physical fight according to the narrative.
It doesn't matter if Erza is using armor or not to increase her status, she is naturally very fast. She was outperforming Kiria while wearing a swimsuit.
The giant plushie didn't hit Erza by surprise. Erza cut the first plush, then Erza advancedfoward holding the sword and was hit by the second plushie.
Do you need me to put Erza reacting surprise attacks and fast sequential attacks to show you that just sending another plushie against her after she has cut the first one wouldn't get her unless the plushie is quick enough to do it?
Lucy was surpassed by both Kiria's speed and cut strenght. If Lucy were quick enough to react, she wouldn't get kicked after her scissors got destroyed, and neither she would be still while cutting by Kiria's continuous cuts. Is this below the portrayal of someone who can dodge Kiria's fast cuts?
If it were Kagura or Minerva in Lucy's place, they would be able to dodge or block the kick after their weapon has been broken, because they are portrayed to react fast, after all, they were wizards who can keep with casual Spriggan speed (Kagura blocked a surprise attack from Dimaria, and her speed was praised by Larcarde; Minerva dominated Wahl-Historia on close combat; fought Erza in the Sun Village without be defeated and react fast to Luso Signarios attacks).
Minerva's reaction was portrayed as not below Erza and Jellal when they fight Luso. Minerva was hit when Erza was hit, Minerva blocked the attack when Erza blocked. Lucy often is portrayed as someone who needs to be saved when fighting alongside stronger mages than her. She even needed to be saved by Laxus to not be defeated by Kiria.
With all this, I'm not saying that Minerva's speed is even with Erza's, I'm saying that Minerva's speed is good enough to keep her fighting with someone who is pressuring Erza. Lucy's speed isn't portrayed as good enough to compete with someone who can pressure Erza. Thus, Minerva is still faster than Lucy.
I showed you Jellal's scene just to prove how is the difference between Lucy and someone who is portrayed as capable of really dealing with Kiria's attacks. It doesn't matter if Kiria can cut Ezra's swords (because it only shows how strong her cuts are), cause Erza would just dodge her attacks and defeat her with punches and kicks if she needed to. It already happened when Neo Minerva also destroyed Erza's Benizakura. Lucy couldn't deal with Kiria's cuts because she wasn't fast enough to do it. Period.
Mirajane, Minerva, and Kagura are closer in level overall.
Kagura can casually cut a little mountain with her sword, so she can cut Lucy until she is knocked out. Minerva explosions, Yadgo Rigola, and close combat skills are enough to beat Lucy until his demise.
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I think you guys are forgetting that the Spriggans are still considered very strong currently, and Lucy didn't defeat anyone at the Spriggan level on the 100 YQ.
Skullion is Kiria's superior. Brandish easily overcame Skullion's strongest magic.
Brandish > Skullion > Kiria.
God Serena was able to clean the floor with Gajeel and put up a close fight with Jellal. Kagura has some feats against the Spriggan, she isn't fodder as it was said here. The gap between Lucy and Minerva or Kagura in terms of strength was very huge in the GMG. Lucy closed the distance little by little, but she still weaker than them. Mostly because Mashima always portrayed Lucy as someone who is not capable of fighting at the same level as a really strong opponent. Lucy is always beaten by them, because she can't keep up with the speed of their attacks, and then defeats the opponent with the spells that drain all her magic power. This scenario wouldn't change if she faced Minerva or Kagura nowadays, based on their feats and how they are portrayed in the manga.
Kiria wasn't treated as a real challenge to Erza, just it. She needed to resource to the "cut strength hax" because she already was in trouble while Erza fought with a swimsuit. The problem is that Kiria couldn't hit any strong magic with her cuts that supposedly cut everything. Erza already dealt with Kiria's cuts with Enchantment in the broken sword. Laxus however, doesn't use a sword, but he wasn't cut even once by Kiria's Dragon Eater magic. Kiria also called Erza and Laxus monsters, so what the narrative is saying is it: Kiria can't perform against Erza and Laxus as she performed against Lucy, because they outclasse Kiria so hard that they probably just would evade her cuts or tank it with few efforts. Mashima chose to portray Kiria as a small fry against "Laxus level's wizards".
Luso, however, at least could hit Erza and Jellal multiple times and made Erza spam Tenrin's swords to destroy all the monsters that she created. Luso's power > Kiria's physical fight according to the narrative.
Fair enough on your last point. You have actually convinced me that Luso's powers are faster than Kiria.
Regarding what you said above that though, I think that there's a general consensus that Kiria isn't on Laxus' and Erza's level. The manga made it clear through several fights and statements.
But neither is Luso. A serious Erza using her Heaven's Wheel armor was easily dealing with Luso's monsters while she was using her true powers and destroyed her.
That very same armor enhanced by a dragon slaying seal only stalemated Laxus' red lightning.
And Laxus has grown stronger since then too, post Kirin fight.
Also Minerva still doesn't scale to Luso's speed, especially not when she was playing around. She reacted in time before giant Luso could crush her but when she destroyed "it" with her strongest spell, this was a fake Luso.
Same when she hit her for the first time after switching places with Ennie.
Oh and how is any of that supposed to upscale Kagura? Her latest feat is getting fodderized by Larcade, a dude slower than base Sting.
Dragon seal doesn't enhance anything. It literally just adds DS attribute to her blades. DS attribute is only useful against Dragons.
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Speed is meaningless in team up fights. I thought that was apparent when Cana was "keeping" up with Gildarts and August lmao. Speed is not even really a factor when Mashima draws up a fight.
Kiria wasn't treated as a real challenge to Erza, just it. She needed to resource to the "cut strength hax" because she already was in trouble while Erza fought with a swimsuit. The problem is that Kiria couldn't hit any strong magic with her cuts that supposedly cut everything. Erza already dealt with Kiria's cuts with Enchantment in the broken sword. Laxus however, doesn't use a sword, but he wasn't cut even once by Kiria's Dragon Eater magic. Kiria also called Erza and Laxus monsters, so what the narrative is saying is it: Kiria can't perform against Erza and Laxus as she performed against Lucy, because they outclasse Kiria so hard that they probably just would evade her cuts or tank it with few efforts. Mashima chose to portray Kiria as a small fry against "Laxus level's wizards".
Luso, however, at least could hit Erza and Jellal multiple times and made Erza spam Tenrin's swords to destroy all the monsters that she created. Luso's power > Kiria's physical fight according to the narrative.
I never said Kiria was a genuine challenge for Erza, I acknowledge she's way weaker than Erza. And no? Kiria didn't use the strength cutting technique because she thought she couldn't win, she used it because she wanted to enslave a strong warrior. Also I was specifically saying Kiria vs Erza on the SHIP was casual, of course once Erza gets serious Kiria herself is no match for her. And the same goes for literally Luso who got blitzed and one-shotted once Erza got serious.
I mean, yeah, we can say Luso is faster than Kiria then, but it is not by much in the slightest considering how both Jellal and Erza were far from serious with Erza barely using her armors in the first encounter.
People are debating semantics and entering a narrative game that exalts Minerva's power level to the group of high-level characters (Erza, Jellal and Laxus) from Fairy Tail. And that doesn't exist.
Furthermore, Minerva doesn't have feats of speed or anything like that. The person advocating this is using lots of random examples to create fiction that can further their arguments. The more you waste time discussing random things, you lose sight of the fact that Minerva didn't do anything relevant against Luso, who was joking.
That's the point of the whole discussion. If it's clear to all of us that Minerva hasn't done anything in the quest, what's the point of continuing to discuss parallel things?
See, the argument in favor of Minerva is using a scene of a plush attack that she dodged, with Erza and Jellal (no Magic) also dodging the same attack.
In other words, there are no speed feats for this character. She's still the same character from the Alvarez arc, who wasn't able to beat history of a Spriggan. End.
Erza used an armor focuses on the quantity of simutaneous attacks. It was the same armor that countered Laxus attacks.
Tenrin is the only armor who can make Erza attacks cover a huge area.
Erza didn't show any other way to fight Luso. And even so, Luso was nerffed by suddenly loosing his mind in the battle by ego, because she could just make Tenrin armor disappear, nullyfing Erza's attack.
However, it not changed that fact that Luso's power can hit Erza multiples times and Kiria's cuts didn't hit Erza even once.
Luso's power > Kiria's speed. Minerva could keep up with Luso's power. Minerva > Lucy in terms of speed. Source: manga.
I've never understood the argument that Erza in any way nullified Laxus spell when she is clearly the first to fire swords and is still firing and Laxus vaporizes them all with his origin Red Lightning...
Ok, and? I'm not saying Kiria is equal to Erza when she's fighting seriously and putting in effort. And the same goes for the Signario Sisters, cause Erza never used her best armors against them, she simply wore her weakest ones. Also the gap in speed absolutely isn't that huge, considering how Kiria hit Laxus with her strength cutting, and he couldn't react to it at ALL. I'm not crazy enough to say stuff like Kiria is faster than Laxus, but the fact Kiria accomplished this on him speaks levels about her speed. And prove Laxus was surprised, in the panel before he got hit by strength cutting, he literally was ready to throw down with her with his lightning crackling around him.
Also Tenrin Armor isn't that fast at all, Hakama Pants is literally faster than it. When wearing her Tenrin Armor, Erza straight up got blitzed by a toying around Ikaruga, so I don't know why that was brought up.
And it's pretty simple, neither Erza NOR Jellal themselves were going all out, Erza never used her Armadura Fairy Armor, neither did she enchant her blades, and Jellal did not fight as hard against them as nearly as he did with God Serena because he didn't use Orion OR Grand Chariot on them. Both Jellal and Erza weren't going all out, and once they did go out, Erza atleast both proved to be far outside Luso's weight class. So you can't use the argument 'Erza wasn't going all out' as s knock against Kiria while gassing up Luso considering her opponents never once got serious against her.
Also that's not speed at all from Minerva, it's her literal ability to warp the space around her. The only reason Luso didn't dodge it was because Luso had no reason too. She can literally make her body into anything she wants and take zero damage. Also Ennie's dislodge with Luso literally tells us she was holding back against them, and once Luso started taking them seriously, Minerva couldn't react to Luso at all and got stopped out by her under foot, needing her space magic to be able to escape.
We can literally see her get her wool defense broken and hit hard by the slicing attack in the bottom left panel, clearly extremely injured. Also, her Cancer Star Dress is obvious faster than her Aries Stardress. Because as with Cancer, she was keeping up with Kiria in speed and only got overpowered because Kiria hits way too hard for someone of her level and broke her blades because Kiria has higher damage output.
Dragon seal doesn't enhance anything. It literally just adds DS attribute to her blades. DS attribute is only useful against Dragons.
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Speed is meaningless in team up fights. I thought that was apparent when Cana was "keeping" up with Gildarts and August lmao. Speed is not even really a factor when Mashima draws up a fight.
Why are you still arguing this? It enhances their attacks with dragon magic. Which would serve as a buff. Come on now. You lost that argument ages ago bro
. Midnight? Cobra might be more relevant than him hell even angel is more relevant than him 
", as if it in any way highlighted Wendy's speed. Her base form was solidly outclassed by Haku's speed and strength (chapters 97 and 98).
