Game Fan League Discussion Thread

[Kaoz]

I feel that play style and dominant hand are some traits that could be used in some more abilities, since they’re not too important right now anyway.

Well, the main reason why they aren't is because they don't... really matter in the series. If special moves were less prevalent it would probably be possible to establish a general playstyle for each character, but as it stands I don't feel that's particularly beneficial. Doesn't help that almost all the top players are all rounders.

 

[Hardy]

Yeah for a season or two there was some sort of rock paper scissors thing going on with the playstyles but I personally wasn't a huge fan of it. It got scrapped in the end too.

As Kaoz said, except for specific cases (like Yuuta) Playstyles and main hands don't matter (and never really did) a lot in the series... Even less nowadays I guess.

 

[Kaoz]

While I think including all the characters Hardy created would be too much for the main season, I've included the following selection:

Spoiler

Yoshiro Akazawa [14, SB: 2, HP: 8, AR, R]
(SPE: 2, POW: 4, STA: 4, MEN: 2, TEC: 2)

Singles Expert [Auto]:
Only activates in singles. Speed increases by 1, Mental increases by 2, Technique increases by 1.

Doubles Novice [Auto]:
Only activates in doubles. Negated if Mental increases through partner's ability. Speed decreases by 1, Technique decreases by 1. Combination Bonus decreases by 2.

Natural Leader [Auto]:
Only activates if Support Lv is >= 1. Partner's Mental increases by [Support Lv] and cannot decrease.

Furious Shout [Counter]:
Triggers after an opponent successfully activates an ACE effect for the first time. Mental permanently increases by 1.

Blur Ball [Special - Lv 2 - 1 STA]:
Activation: Opponent's Motion Vision is negated.
Data: Power increases by 2, Technique increases by 1. If an opponent's Motion Vision was negated, their Technique decreases by 2.
Extra: ACE if every opponent's Mental is less than 3 or their Technique is less than 3.

Dunk Smash [Special - Lv 2 - 1 STA]:
Activation: If an opponent's Special is negated, Lv becomes 5.
Data: Power increases by 3. If an opponent's Special is negated, Power increases by 7 instead.
Extra: ACE if every opponent's combined Power and Technique is less than 7. If an opponent's Special is negated, ACE if every opponent's combined Power and Technique is less than 10.


Takahisa Kajimoto [14, SB: 2, HP: 6, SV, L]
(SPE: 2, POW: 4, STA: 2, MEN: 4, TEC: 2)

Confidence Crusher [Auto]:
Triggers after losing 3 points and if any opponent's Mental is less than 4. For the rest of the match, stats increase at 200% through L-Drill Serve.

L-Drill Serve [Serve - Lv 3 - 1 STA]:
Activation: Cannot be copied.
Data: Speed increases by 1, Power increases by 3.
Extra: ACE if any opponent's combined Speed and Mental is less than 7.


Sho Nanahara [16, SB: 2, HP: 9, AB, R]
(SPE: 3, POW: 5, STA: 4, MEN: 2, TEC: 2)

Savage [Counter]:
Triggers whenever HP decreases or opponent's HP decreases. Power permanently increases by 2.

Rainbow Jack Knife [Special - Lv 3 - 1 STA]:
Activation: Opponent's Specials with Lv <= [(Power + 1) / 2] are negated.
Data: Power increases by 4.
Extra: ACE if every opponent's Power is less than 4. If ACE and an opponent's Power is less than 3, that opponent's HP decreases by 2.


Kojiro Saeki [16, SB: 1, HP: 5, AR, L]
(SPE: 3, POW: 2, STA: 3, MEN: 4, TEC: 4)

Childhood Friends [Auto]:
Only activates with Fuji as partner or opponent. Mental increases by 1.

Motion Vision [Auto]:
Cannot be copied. Cannot be negated. Opponent's Speed decreases by 1. Opponent's Speed increases at -1, opponent's Power increases at -1. When checked, Speed returns at +1.

Mark [Auto]:
Only activates in Doubles or if opponent's playstyle is SV. When checked, opponent's Speed returns at -1. If combined Speed and Mental exceeds an opponent's combined Speed and Mental, that opponent's Power and Technique cannot increase through Specials. Whenever an increase was prevented this way, Technique increases by 2.

Hidden Fangs [Auto]:
Opponent's HP cannot decrease. After partner's HP decreases for the first time, Speed permanently increases by 1 and Mental permanently increases by 1.


Kevin Smith [21, SB: 1, HP: 7, AR, L]
(SPE: 4, POW: 3, STA: 4, MEN: 5, TEC: 5)

Video Study [Reserve]:
Select a Serve/Special with Lv <= 5 from any other character. Copy that Serve/Special for the rest of the season. If selected Serve/Special's Lv = 4, cannot be copied during the next round. If selected Serve/Special's Lv = 5, cannot be copied during the next two rounds.

Pro Coach [Auto]:
Opponent's SB decreases by 1. When checked by a Serve/Special with Lv <= 5, stats return at +1.

Illusion Ball [Special - Lv 4 - 1 STA]:
Data: Power increases by 3, Technique increases by 3.
Extra: ACE if every opponent's combined Speed and Mental is less than 10 or their combined Mental and Technique is less than 10.


Kohei Tanaka [13, SB: 1, HP: 5, CP, R]
(SPE: 2, POW: 2, STA: 3, MEN: 4, TEC: 3)

Twins [Auto]:
Only activates with Tanaka as partner or opponent. If Tanaka is the partner, Stamina decreases at 50% and Mental cannot decrease. If Tanaka is the opponent, Total becomes 0.

Motion Vision [Auto]:
Cannot be copied. Cannot be negated. Opponent's Speed decreases by 1. Opponent's Speed increases at -1, opponent's Power increases at -1. When checked, Speed returns at +1.

Golden Ear [Auto]:
Cannot be copied. Speed cannot decrease. Power cannot decrease. Technique cannot decrease. Opponent's Technique increases at -1. When checked, Speed returns at +1.

Goading [Auto]:
Only activates with Tanaka as partner. Negated if opponent's Support Lv is 3 or higher. If any opponent's Mental is less than 4, opponent's Doubles Bonus decreases by 3.

Duo Union [Special - Lv 2 - 1 STA]:
Activation: Only activates with Tanaka activating Duo Union as partner.
Data: Power increases by [partner's Power].
Extra: When checked by an opponent's Special's ACE effect, Power returns at +4.

Unit [Formation]:
Only activates with Tanaka as partner. If any opponent's Mental is less than 4, Speed increases by 2, Technique increases by 2, partner's Speed increases by 2 and partner's Technique increases by 2.


Yohei Tanaka [13, SB: 1, HP: 5, CP, R]
(SPE: 2, POW: 2, STA: 3, MEN: 4, TEC: 3)

Twins [Auto]:
Only activates with Tanaka as partner or opponent. If Tanaka is the partner, Stamina decreases at 50% and Mental cannot decrease. If Tanaka is the opponent, Total becomes 0.

Motion Vision [Auto]:
Cannot be copied. Cannot be negated. Opponent's Speed decreases by 1. Opponent's Speed increases at -1, opponent's Power increases at -1. When checked, Speed returns at +1.

Golden Ear [Auto]:
Cannot be copied. Speed cannot decrease. Power cannot decrease. Technique cannot decrease. Opponent's Technique increases at -1. When checked, Speed returns at +1.

Goading [Auto]:
Only activates with Tanaka as partner. Negated if opponent's Support Lv is 3 or higher. If any opponent's Mental is less than 4, opponent's Doubles Bonus decreases by 3.

Duo Union [Special - Lv 2 - 1 STA]:
Activation: Only activates with Tanaka activating Duo Union as partner.
Data: Power increases by [partner's Power].
Extra: When checked by an opponent's Special's ACE effect, Power returns at +4.

Unit [Formation]:
Only activates with Tanaka as partner. If any opponent's Mental is less than 4, Speed increases by 2, Technique increases by 2, partner's Speed increases by 2 and partner's Technique increases by 2.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 29, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 27, 2018 ---

Spoiler: Akutsu

Jin Akutsu [22, SB: 2, HP: 10, FS, R]
(SPE: 4, POW: 5, STA: 5, MEN: 4, TEC: 4)

Monster [Auto]:
Power cannot decrease. Technique cannot decrease. The first time HP would decrease to 0, HP decreases to 1 instead.

Eighth Consciousness [Auto]:
Cannot be copied. Cannot be negated. Speed increases by 3 and cannot decrease. Mental increases by 3 and cannot decrease. Lv of Serves/Specials increases by 1. After every point, when activating a Serve/Special, HP decreases by that Serve/Special's Lv. [For Serves/Specials, numbers in brackets apply.]

5 Ball Strike [Special - Lv 3 - 1 STA]:
Data: Speed increases by 2, Technique increases by 2.
Extra: ACE if every opponent's Speed is less than 3 [7], their Mental is less than 3 [7] or their Technique is less than 3 [7]. If ACE, all opponents' HP decreases by the difference between 5 and that opponent's combined Speed and Mental.

10 Ball Strike [Special - Lv 4 - 1 STA]:
Data: Speed increases by 3, Technique increases by 3.
Extra: ACE if every opponent's Speed is less than 4 [9], their Mental is less than 4 [9] or their Technique is less than 4 [9]. If ACE, all opponents' HP decreases by the difference between 6 and that opponent's combined Speed and Mental.

This is still a work in progress, but I'm curious if anyone has thoughts on the concept.

 

[Seakay]

Yeah for a season or two there was some sort of rock paper scissors thing going on with the playstyles but I personally wasn't a huge fan of it. It got scrapped in the end too.

As Kaoz said, except for specific cases (like Yuuta) Playstyles and main hands don't matter (and never really did) a lot in the series... Even less nowadays I guess.

Yeah, I know playstyles and main hands don't matter much but, at least for the fan league, I think it's something interesting that a few characters can use in their abilities to add some variety.

This is still a work in progress, but I'm curious if anyone has thoughts on the concept.

Why did you go with Eighth Consciousness always being active, as opposed to an ability that needs some condition to be active?

I think this Akutsu is fine though, quite strong too with Eighth Consciousness as it is.

 

[Kaoz]

Yeah, I know playstyles and main hands don't matter much but, at least for the fan league, I think it's something interesting that a few characters can use in their abilities to add some variety.

Well, do you have any specific suggestions?

Why did you go with Eighth Consciousness always being active, as opposed to an ability that needs some condition to be active?

Basically just to put more control in the hands of the players using him. For Akutsu it's a pretty drastic change whether 8C activates or not as he can potentially knock himself out with it. Contrast for instance with Oni where not only the difference between using Spirit Demon and TnK is smaller (both provide sizeable boosts with no negative side effects), but the range of characters it activates against is also much smaller.

There's also that he won't have another match in the series, so there's no chance we can ascertain whether he can use it willingly or not on-screen.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 4, 2018, Original Post Date: Jan 31, 2018 ---

What a coincidence that dominant hands came up in the manga just a couple days after Seakay's query. I guess we could try to do something with doubles pairs depending on which character with which dominant hand is in which position (Deuce/Ad). No idea what exactly though. We'd have to make sure it doesn't become too complex in any case. Maybe something with Speed or Technique.

Also in line with this month's chapters, it may be worth considering revamping the Energy system a bit. Something relatively simple could be:

Base_Energy = RoundDown (Stamina / 2)

Energy does not decrease after a 4-0 victory.

The one downside this has is that it makes Stamina an even more important stat, but what can you do. (Well, technically we could change HP to [Power x 2], but I'm not sure how you guys would feel about that.)

 

[Seakay]

Well, do you have any specific suggestions?

Ryoma's Twist Serve is an obvious one based on the opponent's dominant hand but Ryoma is long past using it, unless it's a Perfect Twist Serve. I'm not sure if there's another character or two who would make sense using it though. For playstyles, Marui already has something with his Volley Master auto but that's the only one I remember right now. As Hardy mentioned earlier, hands and playstyles are were irrelevant for a long while. Maybe some serves/specials could have a small bonus against the opponent(s) playstyles? Like lobs could be better against SV players closer to the net, while volleys are better against those that stay close to the baseline. That's a more case by case basis though.

What a coincidence that dominant hands came up in the manga just a couple days after Seakay's query. I guess we could try to do something with doubles pairs depending on which character with which dominant hand is in which position (Deuce/Ad). No idea what exactly though. We'd have to make sure it doesn't become too complex in any case. Maybe something with Speed or Technique.

Call it a Coverage Bonus that just adds to the pair's Combination Bonus? You u have LL, RR, and LR as possible combinations for each team, with those A players (just Omagari?) counting as either. Create a ranking order and if your order is higher than your opponent's, then you can a small bonus based on Speed and/or Technique, like you said. LR might be the best, but not sure about LL vs RR then.

The one downside this has is that it makes Stamina an even more important stat, but what can you do. (Well, technically we could change HP to [Power x 2], but I'm not sure how you guys would feel about that.)

Well, stamina's already the most important stat by far imo. The change makes sense but I do like the energy system now anyway, as it's simpler to plan for.

This does bring up another issue of stats having secondary roles in the fan league. Stamina and Mental have their present uses, and I think characters with higher stats in those two are often slightly better than others in the same tier. For example, having 4 Stamina, instead of 3, to use Serves/Specials on all your service points is quite important. If Stamina does affect the energy system, then I wouldn't Power determining a character's HP. Maybe Speed could figure into a Coverage Bonus and tiebreaks? Not sure about Technique though, maybe something related to Serve/Special levels?

 

[Kaoz]

Ryoma's Twist Serve is an obvious one based on the opponent's dominant hand but Ryoma is long past using it, unless it's a Perfect Twist Serve.

Well, even there the problem is that Ryoma can serve with both hands. That's in fact why I removed the dominant hand condition from his Twist Serve at some point.

Maybe some serves/specials could have a small bonus against the opponent(s) playstyles? Like lobs could be better against SV players closer to the net, while volleys are better against those that stay close to the baseline. That's a more case by case basis though.

I'll see if I feel it fits well with anything.

You u have LL, RR, and LR as possible combinations for each team

I was actually thinking of distinguishing RL and LR if that makes sense. But we could make it a bit more broad and simply establish effects for when dominant hand are court half match and when they don't. For instance, from the explanation Saeki gave, we could say the character gets +1 Speed if they do match (greater reach on the forehand) and I'm sure Kimijima will reveal his rationale for this formation soon enough and we can determine what happens during a mismatch then (one possibility could be high mental -> boosts in Power and Technique).

Not sure about Technique though, maybe something related to Serve/Special levels?

That was actually what it (implicitly) used to do, but then I moved away from it when I made boost and Lv more dependent on each other. I actually had the same thought as what you're suggesting though and wouldn't be opposed to rolling this back. There would be two possibilities:

1. No Lv can be higher than base Technique.
2. All Lvs equal base Technique.

The former probably makes more sense, but the latter is more interesting when you factor in level ups I feel.

I'm not too bothered by Speed not doing anything special by itself since it's probably the most commonly checked stat for ACE effects.

 

[Hardy]

I like 1 when it comes to Technique, but tbh I wouldn't go so deep into expanding mechanics as I think the game is quite stacked with rules as it is. So, if Energy being related to Stamina would make Stamina even stronger, I'd just drop the idea. Same with L+R formations although that's probably a simplier thing to do.

 

[Kaoz]

Well, regarding the Technique stuff, that doesn't really add complexity in any way. It's just me changing numbers around and players have exactly as much information to account for as they do now.

 

[Hardy]

Yeah, I'm aware, as it's more of a system thing than a rule itself, was just concerned about the other things.

I think Power is prolly the least valuable stat but maybe just changing some more ACEs to check it (we have some of those already) could do the trick.

 

[Kaoz]

Hm I guess another viable approach might be to say we give Stamina all those extra functions (Energy, HP, Special usage), but remove it from the stat total. That would make some sense from a logical perspective too since stamina doesn't really matter on a point-by-point basis. We'd just need to compensate characters that rely on their stamina a bit.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 6, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 6, 2018 ---

Just to illustrate a bit what the above would look like, here's a spreadsheet with the relevant data for some characters.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 7, 2018 ---

Or yet another thing we could do is lower the number of points per match from 7 to 5. This would benefit lower stamina characters by allowing them to still use their Specials on the majority of points, however, it characters with more stamina would get to play more matches before having to rest. In doubles we'd probably change the fifth (i.e. new tiebreaker) point to just let every character use Serves.

To summarize, right now we have three options:

1. More or less leave things as they are.
2. Exclude Stamina from the total in return for its additional effects.
3. Shortening matches from 7 to 5 points.

I guess a combination of (2) and (3) would also be a possible approach. What's your guys' thoughts on that?

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 7, 2018 ---

Sorry for making so many addendums, but we could also do away with Energy as such and instead say Stamina carries over from one match to the next unless you rest.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 7, 2018 ---

I guess I'd favor a combination solution, personally. Specifically:

Character [TOT, SB, STA, HP, PS, HND]
(SPE, POW, MEN, TEC)

5 points per match.
Stamina carries over.
If Stamina < Base Stamina and playing: +1
If Stamina < Base Stamina and resting: full recovery

Mostly get rid of 0.5 costs.
Increase number of Serves/Specials.
Decrease number of Autos/Counters.

 

[Hardy]

Idk that's a lot of change and I like the game as it is >< I'd really rather keep everything the way it is.

I even think Stamina being part of the total should still be a thing, as its healthy for the game (makes your guesses harder) and also fits the manga itself (as players struggling due to stamina was always a thing).

 

[Kaoz]

Idk that's a lot of change and I like the game as it is >< I'd really rather keep everything the way it is.

I even think Stamina being part of the total should still be a thing, as its healthy for the game (makes your guesses harder) and also fits the manga itself (as players struggling due to stamina was always a thing).

I'm a bit surprised you're against (3)? Shortening the matches by two points would make the whole bunch of 3 STA characters better after all.

 

[Hardy]

I'm a bit surprised you're against (3)? Shortening the matches by two points would make the whole bunch of 3 STA characters better after all.

Yeah but it makes a lot of sense for 3 set matches, whereas 5 would fit a mini-league (for the weaker players, in the future) with 1 set matches.

 

[Kaoz]

Yeah but it makes a lot of sense for 3 set matches, whereas 5 would fit a mini-league (for the weaker players, in the future) with 1 set matches.

Well, it depends on how you look at it. You could split it up like this (as we have done):
Points 1&2 - all service and all receive games of the first set
Points 3&4 - all service and all receive games of the second set
Points 5&6 - all service and all receive games of the third set
Point 7 - final tiebreaker

That interpretation means that characters with 5 Stamina can't play at full strength the whole match, they need to hold back at times to make it to the end should the match go the distance.

An alternative would be that a character with 5 Stamina can go all-out for an entire 3 set match, which would suggest 3 sets = 5 points. In that case a character with 3 Stamina could still win a 3 set match, but they'd basically forfeit one of the sets from the start and put all their energy into hopefully winning the other two sets.

My dilemma is basically that I like the way we do things at the moment, but I also think that shortening the matches and then letting Stamina carry over is more in line with the direction Konomi's going in.

 

[Hardy]

Yeah but in the end you'll be modifying a game that you've been worked for ages that has a nice balance due to a one liner used to halfway explain a plot hole (as, for instance, Ohmagari and Byoudouin could still be in the line-up). In the end, it's looking too much into it, imo.

 

[Kaoz]

Well, Byoudouin's absence got more or less explained last month. But leaving that aside, I have no problems with making modifications. I want a satisfying product, even if the process of getting there isn't the easiest.

(That isn't to say I won't be taking other opinions into account, else I wouldn't bother asking.)

 

[Hardy]

Well, Byoudouin's absence got more or less explained last month. But leaving that aside, I have no problems with making modifications. I want a satisfying product, even if the process of getting there isn't the easiest.

(That isn't to say I won't be taking other opinions into account, else I wouldn't bother asking.)

It ain't explained, he could easily play in another Singles spot if not doubles. Also, if I get things right, Japan will play with something like Team C->B->A (with some repeats here and there like Ryoma) when they could easily do something like A->B->A if stamina was the issue.

I have no problems with modifications either I just feel these bunch could be in the wrong direction, when the product itself is more than satisfying already.

 

[Kaoz]

It ain't explained, he could easily play in another Singles spot if not doubles. Also, if I get things right, Japan will play with something like Team C->B->A (with some repeats here and there like Ryoma) when they could easily do something like A->B->A if stamina was the issue.

Well, not necessarily. Whether those are legitimate plot holes or not depends on a couple other things:

1. Byoudouin could've potentially played in a different slot, but only if the rule that players can change positions within the line-up is no longer in effect. If it is, it stands to reason that Camus would simply switch into that slot, so Byoudouin would be denying Duke his match even if he decided to play earlier.
2. I think it's possible that after a tough 3 setter, Tanegashima, Duke and Oni wouldn't recover enough for what's potentially another tough 3 setter even if they rested a round in-between. These rounds are one day after another after all.

Of course I cannot prove either of those things, but both are perfectly possible in my mind.

 

[Hardy]

Well, not necessarily. Whether those are legitimate plot holes or not depends on a couple other things:

1. Byoudouin could've potentially played in a different slot, but only if the rule that players can change positions within the line-up is no longer in effect. If it is, it stands to reason that Camus would simply switch into that slot, so Byoudouin would be denying Duke his match even if he decided to play earlier.
2. I think it's possible that after a tough 3 setter, Tanegashima, Duke and Oni wouldn't recover enough for what's potentially another tough 3 setter even if they rested a round in-between. These rounds are one day after another after all.

Of course I cannot prove either of those things, but both are perfectly possible in my mind.

1. If Camus were to switch, so could Byoudouin and Duke.
2. Yeah, that's why I said A->B->A, which is already giving them a leeway I honestly wouldn't (as every other team will play with their A team no matter what, and I doubt all the HSers and specially MSers in all the other countries have better Stamina than the likes of Tanegashima).