Key words: Gray froze Ultear in the water.
What are the chances of Gray and Gajeel happening to be by water in their battle? This is getting ridiculous.
Bottom line is, Gray can't freeze anyone that's not fodder, because that's all Gray's been doing. Unless you think Gajeel = fodder in avatar and fodder sand creations.
I think you will probably read the post above before arriving here but like I said, if you all want to play it like this, then so be it. Gray freezing Ajeel's Sand Golem is no mere feat. It shows that Gray can stop something at a speed and durability similar to that of Ajeel's magic. Ajeel's Sand Golem is durable and we saw it catch up to the Magic Vehicle powered by Erza which is pretty fast. Anything else you want? It may not be a human but it definitely outclasses an average human.
I don't even understand your point here since it doesn't even relate to my quote saying how DeS is Ice Make level on humans until proven otherwise with feats. Where's the bias? That's reasonable.
My point was that we can't underrate DeS after all the feats we've seen from it. It enhanced Gray's Ice Make to another level that matches a human's easily which is seen in the Ajeel situation. Yes, it wasn't DeS magic but without it, Gray's Ice Make would be weaker. So it does help indirectly. I don't even know why it has become a topic on whether DeS would have an effect on humans. If we're not talking about the race that a specific slayer magic is meant to counter, then it should not be different throughout unless you guys really want to make Gajeel win. The bias comes in because you guys disregard the capabilities of DeS when it is clearly shown to help boost stats on any race including humans.
How is it bias? You're throwing around this word too much now and it frankly doesn't make sense with what you're saying.
It's just not giving anything the benefit of the doubt using the inconsistency the Slayer magics displayed as a basis. All magics should be the same, as you said, but that's not proven.
I don't understand why we simply can't wait a couple chapters and see some DeS feats for ourselves instead of using inaccurate hype and other ridiculous things. Right now, nothing is conclusive and set in stone.
Nope. In fact, I don't think I'm stressing "bias" enough based off of the responses I'm getting. It is not proven, but there are evidence and proof that are clearly there. I've been saying that we should wait and see but you guys seem to press it too much and expecting me to give all of you the last word which is not of my nature if I can counter it.
Gajeel absolutely does not tie with Gray in every other stat. Gajeel has nearly all stats over Gray except for "intelligence" as you said, which doesn't mean much in a battle.
If he doesn't give me proof like I've been asking others. I have ignored this point ever since my first post because when I asked, I go no answers back. I mean I have been waiting to the point that you guys should just PM each other and help gather up evidence to prove to me. From what I've judged, Gajeel and Gray each have their downfalls and their superiority.
Intelligence doesn't mean much? Actually it does. It has
a lot of impact on battles which is why most of you are making this rigged. In fact, I have enough evidence to prove this. It is used very often in Fairy Tail and mostly by Erza along with Gray who many people hate. It's funny that people disregard feats just because of characters. Erza defeated Midnight because of her mental processes. Gray defeated Ultear because he was smart. I can name more but I don't want to go searching everywhere meanwhile you guys all relax and make excuses to counter me.
Gajeel has power over Gray too. He doesn't outclass him like Natsu does, but he still has power over him.
Feats, Proof, Evidence? At this point, I get nothing that I would even let you use hype but it would be too easy and besides, it is restricted.
Are you seriously trying to say that Gray can win solely because of intelligence? I'm sorry but this is too much. What is his intelligence going to do to make him come out on top of battle? I don't see intelligence doing anything when Gray is hit with an ISD Roar, I don't see intelligence doing anything when intangibility is in play. You guys are holding on to the smallest things that won't change anything in battle.
What decides a battle?
DC
Speed
Endurance
Durability
Not intelligence. Again, I'd understand if Gajeel was just plain stupid like say, Asuka, who's just a kid. Fortunately, this isn't the case.
This is just plain ignorance. Read my posts above for information that will help you picture the battle. Once again, intangibility does not work because he has to get out of it to hit Gray in which Gray can counter. As for the stats you mention, I believe Gajeel has no upper hand above Gray in DC, Endurance, or Durability and neither does Gray in that matter. To be fair, both are pretty much equal in those. Yes, Gajeel is better in speed but which are we talking about? Combat Speed or Traveling Speed? Gray wouldn't lose to Gajeel in Combat Speed. I can almost guarantee that as Gajeel is slow in hitting due to his emphasis on power. Therefore, Gajeel has a better Traveling Speed which doesn't do much unless you plan to run away. Intelligence can outclass Traveling Speed. If you need proof, look at the posts above you.
Dragons >>>>>>>>>>> Dragon hatchlings. Nice try though.
You had Gray dealing with fodder while Gajeel dealing with an actual threat, a dragon.
Hmmmmm...
Never disagreed here... Because like I said, Gray managed to destroy Dragon Hatchlings. Gajeel couldn't even cause pain to a dragon. So both are about equal here. The reason Gajeel was paired with a Dragon and Gray was paired with a Dragon Hatchling is because people thought the dragon slayers would be able to take them on in which we saw they were dearly wrong. Gray knew he had no chance so he didn't fight one as he doesn't possess Dragon Slaying Magic. At the same time, Gajeel had no chance either.
They're both portrayed to be fodder but they weren't by feats. At least Yomazu wasn't.
I can use the exact same logic and say Erza > Natsu by portrayal, not by feats though.
Yes, they were both portrayed to be fodder. They were also by feats. You are just in denial, that's it. Tell me what feat put him above fodder level? That he overpowered Gajeel? Very convenient... I see where this is going. But too bad I don't think that way. Don't worry. Every character has a fair share of fails including Gray so stop being so persistent on this. The Erza vs. Natsu situation is a whole different topic but if you want to know where I stand, look at another post in a different thread.
It's not exactly absurd to think that Silver could beat someone who outranks him and is a demon. That's kind of the point of advantageous magic. That's what having an advantage is.
Besides, we've seen how deadly DeS magic is on demons.
Yeah, but having an advantage does not mean you can beat someone way stronger when you are utterly weak. So although, I know what you're saying, we cannot deny the fundamental basics.
I don't think it would actually increase his stats that much, maybe only bump his damage output a tiny bit. And DeS is an entirely new magic for Gray, lets not forget that. Its nearly impossible for him to get close to Silver's mastery of IDeS which took close to a decade to have that level of mastery with it, when Gray has only had one year to learn it. Gajeel on the other hand has had years with his Iron Dragon Slaying magic, and has had a few more weeks of being able to use his Iron-Shadow Dragon Form than Gray has with Devil Slaying magic. This means that Gajeel is going to be more efficient with his magic than Gray is going to be with Ice Devil Slaying magic. Sure, Gray also has his Ice-make magic, but thats going to lose out to Gajeel's base mode reasonably easy.
I never said by how much. But to say he'd be the same is not exactly logical either. Maybe it would bump his damage output a tiny bit but maybe more. From little that we have seen in the Alvarez Arc, it seems that it helps Gray with his magic capabilities whether it is directly or indirectly by using DeS. Although DeS, is entirely new for Gray, Gray is still used to the element, Ice, which helps him adapt faster. You can call nonsense but even so, Gray had 1 full year to master it. Not sure if it would be on Silver's level but then we don't know how long he had it. Also, there is such thing as learning at a faster pace. So saying that Gray is definitely behind Silver in DeS magic is technically invalid. Given Gray's intelligence and hard work personality, I don't see this being far fetched. Gajeel, again, could have his abilities for a long period of time but maybe it takes longer to master given his intelligence. In no way am I trying to diss him. Really. So please don't flame at me. I am just analyzing possibilities. Note that I didn't even call Gajeel dumb. In my eyes, he is a cool character and known for his toughness + chillness. He might be just a little below average in intelligence but not that much. He is comparable to Natsu anyways. I wouldn't say that Gajeel is more efficient with his magic than Gray with certainty. That would be a lot of speculating. I'm also not sure how Base Gray would lose to Base Gajeel unless I get proof. So far I see it kind of even. Gajeel has two elements of magic. Gray has two types of magic.
As for Gajeel having Dragon Force, Natsu and Wendy required massive power sources so they could activate it when they had Dragons in their bodies. When Igneel left Natsu's body, Natsu was able to enter Dragon Force at will, as seen in the last moments of his and Gray's fight against Mard Geer. Its pretty clear the Dragons were restricting Dragon Force by being in the slayer's bodies, so seeing Natsu and Wendy can now enter Dragon Force at will, its a a big possibility that Gajeel can enter it at will as well now. I wouldn't think that he'd need it to defeat Gray however; the Iron Shadow Dragon mode would basically negate Gray being to hit him with most magic.
Sorry, I can't hype Gajeel to have Dragon Force because we haven't seen it and it may be too early to tell. After all, hype is restricted which is why I lean more towards on Gray's side. I can see what you mean though.
We don't need to look at the effects on demons IDeS had to have a logical discussion on the different magic types. I do agree that seeing how strong they are against humans will make it easier.
Why do you think dual > single is flawed? Assume MP is constant for the user.
Well, I agree that dual > single is valid provided we are comparing the character to himself/herself. But to compare two different characters is tricky. Assuming MP is constant for both users is one thing. But we would have to compare effectiveness as well when we determine the strength of the attacks used for both modes. However, in general, I guess I can understand dual > single. Even though I still am not quite convinced.
Weaker? Having IM and IDSM means Gray has more spells now. The ONLY way Gray's spell repertoire is considered stronger than ISD is IF there is a IM/IDSM spell stronger than the strongest ISD spells, in my opinion. It almost always comes down to power.
Okay, my wording might be a little off. Not necessarily weaker but more likely to be at a disadvantage or basically lose. Yeah, it does come down to power but we haven't seen much of Gray's ultimate attacks in iDeS mode unless it was used on a demon like Mard Geer which has errors in itself. I'll hopefully wait and see in the next coming chapters but I still stand by my ground as of now.
See I don't think from BoS to Tartarus there is a point where Gray (w/o DeS) is at the level of Gajeel, which is at the level of Natsu. Both Dragon Slayers have always been level ahead of Gray. If you think that Gray has always been Natsu/Gajeel level that is fine. Because you actually think Gray is stronger magically (which I referred to before) then I see why you're saying DeS Gray = ISD Gajeel. You're being overly generous to Gray in my view.
I guess this is the reason why we differ. I have always thought of it like this... [Gray = Gajeel] ≤ Natsu. Gajeel and Gray tend to vary in my mind because of both of their failures and successes that put them on the same level. I have no reason to believe Gajeel > Gray or the other way around. I don't know why users have said Gajeel is better than Gray with certainty even though I asked for scenarios or panels that would prove it. Yet, I've got none so far. Maybe I'm being overly generous to Gray, but I believe I also give Gajeel the benefit of the doubt too. You guys may not see it, but I give Gajeel the fact that he can stay in shadow mode for quite some time and that he is not too dumb. Sometimes I wonder how much faster Gajeel is compared to Gray. You guys would say by miles but I don't think so. If I bring up this next statement, I would get flamed at but nonetheless, I'll do it anyways. The point for the Fairy Tail Race Episode in the Anime was to judge the speeds accordingly. Natsu, Gray, and Gajeel seemed to be on the same level. I know this is not canon and is only a filler but it did make sense. Most of you guys say it is because of his shadow form that Gajeel beats Gray which I agree. But how long can he use that form? Again, I give him the benefit of the doubt so I say it would be a fair amount of time.
I'd be able to understand your points better if you actually stated why IDeS >= ISD. I've detailed my reasons why I think ISD is better. What you're saying is 'Gray is better than Gajeel' imo. And that's okay to think that way, although manga feats would suggest otherwise personally. But you've not really said why as a magic IDeS = ISD, which to me also implies DeS > DS magic.
I think it would be too far to say that DeS is greater than or equal to ISD. Same with DeS > DS magic. I honestly can't really compare iDeS to ISD but because I see no reasons to believe one is better than the other, I put them about the same level. If you guys want ISD > iDeS then so be it. If it was, I would say the gap is minimal but again, I can't prove it and it would really be helpful if all of you can come up with something to show me. Due to lack of feats though, either we can't find anything it it'll be really hard to find with some hype added in.
Yeah you never denied it but you posed a whole heap of scenarios without acknowledging MP input; while at the same time implying that dual attacks are not necessarily stronger than single magic type attacks. If MP is equal, the power is equal - regardless of how many magics are put in. But you're disregarding what dual attacks do... they allow for 2 spells/magics to be used at once. Simply - more MP can be put into an attack.
I don't really know how the MP works with these attacks. Just for the sake of discussion, I believe we can interpret it another way. In my eyes, the amount of MP is dispersed throughout both elements which means the power is pretty much the same as if it was a single element. So you ask, why would the attack be stronger? Well, my answer would be because dual mode would give you a higher magic capacity in which the more MP you put into an attack, the stronger it is like you said earlier. Then what about Unison Raids? Well to me, I see it as both users who are performing the Unison Raid are essentially combining their magic capacity to not only combine their elements but also the magic power dealt at the receiving end.
Basically, I see Gajeel's transformation to ISD boosting his stats with higher magic capacity which makes his attack stronger while also dispersing them quite evenly thoughout both elements. Gray is the same way though. I see his iDeS giving him a much higher magic capacity except it is focused all into one element. And because I see Base Gray ≈ Base Gajeel with both of their transformations giving them similar boosts until proven otherwise, I would put them near the same level. This means the basic stats of both characters would make this match a draw with the exception of tiny details like speed, intelligence, conditions, etc.
Well okay, let's say DeS doesn't mean that they get the power of a demon (although Mard hinted something like this post-Momento Mori). DS magic gives dragon power. Since dragon power seems to be the strongest thing in the manga, you're going to have to roll with DS magic being better I assume. Simply there isn't a magic I view as better for a human than DS magic, provided they can enter DF.
I can go with this but I will not put full trust into this either. I mean people hinted Ankhseram to be the strongest even though he doesn't use DS magic but I don't think Ankhseram will become an enemy anyway. To me he is more of a mediator. Going by Acnologia though, who is by far the strongest, you have a point and I have no way of denying this. Dragons are probably stronger but if we're talking humans, DS magic may well be one of the strongest unless the user has less raw power than their opponent but that is a different story. I have to also consider lost magic and black magic but those are minor. DeS magic may not be too strong but I wouldn't say it is way below either. After all, it is kind of lost magic.
I think it's their own magic - as their own MP. I do believe if Gray and Silver fought now they should be able to eat each others DeS magic because it doesn't belong to them. Or it's like you say.
Yeah, it is. My bad. I couldn't think of a right word so I used "element" but you're clearly right. It's like their own MP.
